Well, the World Cup’s over and the teams and visitors have all gone home, but the afterglow of achievement hasn’t entirely faded for South Africans. The people of this struggling “rainbow nation”, especially its new president Jacob Zuma, can be deservedly proud of having successfully hosted this tremendous international sporting event. Over forty years ago Zuma was a player himself, in fact the captain of the Rangers club, one of the teams that made up the Makana Football Association, organized by the prisoners of South Africa’s notorious Robben Island state prison.
An article in the New York Times mentioned that in Robben Island “…soccer brought relief from the exhausting life of breaking rocks in a quarry. It conferred dignity on prisoners subjected to beatings and humiliating body searches.” An inmate, Lizo Sitoto who was imprisoned on Robben island from 1963 until 1978, claimed that “football saved many of us. When you were outside playing, you felt free, as if you were at home.”
Nelson Mandela was kept in an isolation unit and not allowed to play football, but it appears that he somehow managed to keep himself physically fit. On Thursday February 11, 1990, when he was released from Robben island and the whole world celebrated his freedom, some observers noticed how spry and energetic he looked in spite of his 27 years behind bars. His physical and mental fitness, was of course, in great part, the product of his own discipline, political focus and iron will.
But that same year I read an article in The Independent which described how the South African government was very careful with the health of prisoners on Robben Island. As brutal as life could be for the inmates, their diet was adequate and nutritious enough (though reportedly stodgy and unappetizing) and overseen by a government appointed dietician. The prisoners also had regular exercise routines and periodic medical check-ups.
I have interviewed or just talked to hundreds of Tibetans who had been incarcerated in Chinese prisons and labor camp, and no one has yet told me of playing football, basketball, or even taking part in any kind of basic recreational activity. The reason for this sedentariness was profoundly simple. The amount of food a Tibetan prisoner was allotted just about enabled breath to be kept in the body. But prisoners were also expected perform hard labor for twelve to fourteen hour daily, and after that to attend political re-education classes late into the evening. Of course, most of them quickly wasted away and died.
Many hundreds of thousand of Tibetans and millions of Chinese in prison and labor camps (laogai) were quite deliberately starved to death. This was an actual policy of the Chinese government. The death of many Tibetans through starvation, especially in the labour camps, did not happen because of natural events like crop failure or famines (though such catastrophes certainly made the situation worse) but were rather the result of a cold and calculated policy of the Chinese authorities to control prisoners and their productivity through slow starvation.
According to Jean Pasqualini (Bao Ruo Wang), who wrote the classic account on China’s labour camps, Prisoner of Mao, the Chinese authorities had developed the system to such a degree of efficiency and sophistication that Stalinist gulags and Nazi concentration camps were crude and unproductive by comparison. The Chinese did not have to resort to such primitive and wasteful ways of getting rid of people, like gas-chambers or bullets. Instead they simply starved a man to death, and during the time it took him to die, used the powerful incentives of slight variations in the wretched farce of a daily ration to extract the maximum amount of labour and submission out of him. It is probably as horrible a way to die as being gassed to death – and it takes a much longer time for a person to actually die.
Think about it. In the USA condemned criminals are regularly executed by gas or lethal injection, and a majority of the population doesn’t seem to have any problem with it. But if a prison warden deliberately starved a condemned man to death, don’t you think there would be a national outcry, even from hardcore death penalty advocates?
To relieve hunger pangs, prisoners in laogai camps drank so much hot water that their limbs and bellies swelled up with oedema and many died of the condition. Because of the shortage (and often complete absence) of tea or butter throughout the country even those Tibetans not in prison had to adopt the Chinese practice of drinking hot water (kai shui). Lhasa folks, in their mildly sarcastic way, dubbed it “socialist butter-tea” (chizo-ringlu nyakpa). The term nyakpa is used in particular to describe a full-flavoured tea with plenty of butter.
One Tibetan prisoner told me of picking undigested or partially digested grain from animal dung to flesh out his daily ration. Ama Adhe of Kanze told me of the giant labour camp she was sent to at Yakraphug in the high mountains of the baron of Gothan, north of Dhartsedo. The prisoners, about few thousand of them, were supposed to be mining lead, but when Ama Adhe got there most of the inmates were so weak with hunger that they only managed to crawl around the camp looking for scraps of anything edible on the ground. Those slightly healthier, and there weren’t too many of them, hobbled about, supporting themselves on sticks. Ama Adhe herself became so weak with hunger that the guards thought she was finished and they put her in a large pit with the dead bodies. But somehow she hung on to life. At one point, she tried to chew on a dried human corpse by her side but only hurt her teeth biting on the hard desiccated limb.
Even now prisoners in Tibet and in Chinese appear to be routinely underfed, though starving a person to break or eliminate him doesn’t appear to be the current policy of the penal system. But they have other methods, one being to lock you up in a cell with terminal TB cases, and keeping you there till your lungs show up a nice solid black on the X-ray machine. Your family is then contacted to take you away. The onus on the state of you dying in prison is hence neutralized. A more modern, even scientific way of breaking you is the subject of a whole book by Human Rights Watch* which I have discussed in my own work Buying the Dragon’s Teeth. Dissidents are locked up in state psychiatric units (Ankang) where you would be injected with an array of psychotropic drugs or, if the need arose even undergo psycho-surgery.
But the recent case of Karma Samdrup, sentenced to fifteen years in prison, seems to indicate that starvation, as a method to break prisoners, hasn’t entirely been relinquished in the PRC. Named “philanthropist of the year” in 2006 by CCTV, and embraced by the Chinese Communist Party for his environmental work and his willingness to give the government pieces from his art collection, Karma was arrested last August along with two of his brothers. He was brought before a People’s Court court in Xinjiang this year on 22 June. His wife Dolkar Tso wrote an appeal to the Chinese government which has been translated into English by highpeakspureearth.com.
Karma was a big man, and Dolkar Tso writes that he was tall and heavyset even a “little chubby”. But when she saw her husband in the People’s Court she did not recognize him immediately as he had lost so much weight and had become “small and skinny”. He claimed that he had been beaten and tortured so that he bled from his orifices, and that he gone deaf in his left ear, probably from a blow that had ruptured the ear-drum. But he also said that he had not been allowed to sleep and “he had not been given any food.”
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*Munro, Robin. (August 2002). Dangerous Minds: Political Psychiatry in China Today and its Origins in the Mao Era. New York and Geneva: Human Rights Watch/Geneva Initiative on Psychiatry.
JN la
Starvation in Chinese prisons is a way of torture and it has been brutally practicing on prisoners and specially Political prisoners.
This week, the Falun Dafa Information Center reported that wardens at Heilongjiang’s Daqing prison are preventing sixty-five Falun Gong practitioners detained there from eating. Falun Gong practitioners are not allowed to enter the dining hall or receive food from others—and they’re using this as a form of torture. More than three thousand Falun Gong practitioners have been killed since China crackdown on the spiritual practice but 400 of them were starved in prisons.
another fact is that About 20 million people are facing starvation in China because of droughts and floods across the country this year, China Daily reported today.
Another 80 million people in rural areas of at least 10 provinces are threatened with food shortages this winter because of the impact of the natural disasters on grain crops.
Over the last nine months, China has been hit with a wave of unusually severe natural disasters, including prolonged freezing temperatures in eastern and central China, extensive drought during the summer in several central provinces and widespread flooding of the Yangtze River.
More than 200 million rural residents were affected by these disasters, this information clearly posted on China Daily News.
Altogether, about 114 million acres of agricultural land were damaged by the disasters; Government officials now say that this year’s grain production will be lower than last year’s. That means starvation rate is going to go sky rock later this year.
In case of Karma Samdrup China’s goal is so clear that they wanted to get rid of him. So who cares to feed him and lost weight in prison
I really believe that Karma’s small and skinny health condition now is on the way to starvation
the real problem in tibet that the tibetan always Deceive themselves,tibetan always claim that the chinese suffering and killing and torturing under the government of china,the reality is the most chinese in china not suffering,if the chinese realy suffering then why most chinese are prochina government if they where antigovernment then they will go protest in street like what tibetan do in 2008,but the reality is tibetan live under the delusions and tibetan think that the chinese suffering and chinese need freedom the truth is the chinese already have a freedom and they are so many chinese oppose the government and they live inside china and china not arrested them,even inside china so many chinese worker protest and do worker strike and china allow them not arrested or killing like what to do to the tibetan,so in the end the real who need freedom is tibetan not the chinese,the real who suffering is tibetan,tibetan should not Deceive themselves.
Dear 1234,
You ask “if the chinese realy suffering then why most chinese are prochina government?” It is an interesting question, and one that puzzled and disturbed the Chinese writer Lu Xun, back in the 1930’s. He came closest to answering it with this observation of a common Chinese character trait “We let ourselves be turned all too easily into slaves. And the worst is that once we have become slaves we derive much satisfaction from it.”
Nice effort, but a comparison of Chinese gulag with Nazi concentration camps would be more appropriate!
JN la,
I think the utter barbarity of the Chinese Communist system needs to be exposed in full brutality. I also believe it would be good for victims of this abuse to come forward, something atypical of Tibetan culture, but necessary for healing. So I want to suggest to you to interview, record, document, and write about the Chinese methods of sexual torture. If my fellow westerners understand how utterly brutal the CCP is, it will be harder for them to support any kind of ridiculousness (from Middle Way policies to “negotiation” with these subhuman red-devil monsters). I hope you may write an article about this subject, as I do not have the means or contacts to do so myself.
Another topic I’d like to see is WHY we should support nonviolence. I hear everywhere that this is a nonviolent movement. Yet I feel in my heart that the human response would be to begin confronting on their own terms the subhuman red-devil monsters for crimes against humanity — referring not to Chinese people but to the soldiers, police, and officials who perpetrate the brutality. Since they will never negotiate in earnest, what is stopping the Tibetan people from developing a valid insurrection? I hope you might answer this question of mine through comment or essay.
In the old days you commented that Tibet needed to become a war zone where any rightminded Chinese would be afraid to live before Tibet could be free. Has your stance changed with time?
I am, of course, a man of peace. But so was David when he faced Goliath. And no one can convince me that removing a torturous genocidal rapist from the human landscape is somehow “unBuddhist” even from their stance over there deep in Shangrila!!!! It is certainly not a problem for the Christ-loving man!
Now to appease Big Brother I shall say these are merely academic questions, and far be it for someone like me to carry out, as a westerner, what is essentially the duty of Tibetan people to decide! I shall remain confined to my armchair questions as I hide in my three piece suit here in the smoking lounge of the club, dreaming of the day when justice dawns for Tibet!
And yet, so much in life has started with none but a dream!
Regards,
Prescott
The history of racism in SA has more in common with the US. Its just ignorant bigotry.
Nazi concentration camps and the invasion of Tibet was more like an encounter with the Borg in Star Trek – executed with all the cold, calculating efficiency we have all foolishly come to adore.
SA retains a degree of spontaneity and freedom other nations have lost to the b(l)inding ties of world trade. Also apparent in Cuba, it was one of the few benefits of Apartheid isolation, but that is fading fast. We’re becoming more efficient. Contracts are being signed, people are already bored and more annoyed with vuvuzellas, and last I checked the rational structures were inhibiting Holiness Chenrezig’s travel to this curious place.
The good news is structure works both ways. How would South Africans have heard of His Holiness, and put up such a fight when his visa was denied, without this 8th wonder of the world we call the Internet?
Time, karmic connections, priorities, focus. Some thoughts come to mind.
Prescott
Why none violence? Because the possibility of a successful asymmetrical military confrontation in Tibet against even the PAP is slim to none.
Look at what happened in Chechnya. Look at the pathetic state of the Palestinian state.
In both cases, the insurrectionists were vastly more prepared than Tibetans, yet both were brutally crushed when the full weight of a true military machine fighting under relaxed rules of engagement came to bear.
by the way
“the subhuman red-devil monsters” is a good one.
However, if you want a true look at unbridled brutality against fellow Men, look no further than your own history. Chinese occupation of Tibet is but an episode of Barney & Friends beside these infringements of epic proportions.
Chinese Engineer,
You wrote:
“However, if you want a true look at unbridled brutality against fellow Men, look no further than your own history. Chinese occupation of Tibet is but an episode of Barney & Friends beside these infringements of epic proportions.”
I won’t call it Red Devilish but your above statement is definitely subhuman. Trying to justify once crime by saying other’s have done the same in the past. Even if the other’s have done the same with other people it doesn’t make the Chinese occupation of Tibet any less of a crime much less a justified one. By your logic it would be justified for another power in the future to carry out another rape of Nanking.
I have heard from many Chinese the quote “BE A MAN, DO THE RIGHT THING”. I wonder why they can’t apply it to themselves first.
“We let ourselves be turned all too easily into slaves. And the worst is that once we have become slaves we derive much satisfaction from it.”
“SLAVE” Very insteresting!
probably because ‘the line between good and evil runs through every man’ – Solzhenitsyn
human, subhuman, superhuman. its all the same to me.
Kalsang Phuntsok,
You seem to lack an understanding of how the real world works, so allow me to point out what should be obvious.
Morality in this day and age is superfluous. Moral justification is never the foremost criterion in any strategic decision making. In fact, it probably won’t even make it onto the list.
In short, Might Makes Right. Tibet is a Chinese territory right now because the PLA trampled the pathetic Tibetan resistance five decades ago. Rape of Nanking happened because the KMT could not form a cohesive resistance around the city. Tibetan independence is only truly justified when independence minded Tibetans find a practical counter leverage against Chinese authority, and as long as the Second Artillery points nukes at Japan and the East Sea Fleet has submarines, another attempt at Nanking is all but impossible, no moral justification needed.
Moral justification, my delusional friend, is only ever brought up in any significance by the powerless and the stupid, these two not being mutually exclusive.
And of course liberal arts students, but they most likely fall into the stupid category.
Chinese Engineer,
“Morality in this day and age is superfluous. Moral justification is never the foremost criterion in any strategic decision making. In fact, it probably won’t even make it onto the list.”
Due to the Devilish practice of Chinese stratigic planners, the innocent common people are at the receiving end.Putting too much emphasis on expantionsionism and human ( Tibetans and Chinese as well) killings in order to make a place in this competitive world had given China a great name” Devils”. When there is no morality and humanitarian act, the obvious consequence would be Self Destruction.
I would say that at this age and time, the most important thing that the world need is Morality. I can’t buy your way of achieving a significant strategic plan through killing and cheating. If you Chinese Authorities are real Men, then why not come out of the Monster Cave and be an open book to the world who is eager to have a pleasant show of ur past, present and future.
One thing that you should bear in mind is that Immoral,injustice and the oppression are the weapons of Stupid and Cowards.
It is the biggest problem of China that there is no disticntion between right or wrong. Everything that appeals to the higher authorities are always right. Because of that there are numerous demonstrations going on in China like labours’ strike, worker’s Union strikes, Farmer’s strike.
When you go down into the real story, the Chinese people are not happy with the CPC. Afterall, they are humans and they need care and welfare.
After not more than 10 years, i can see China Collapsing like that of Soviet Union. Waite and Watch..
Jamyang Norbu la,
You may already know that on Hong Kong book show this week, there is a book ‘1959 Lhasa!’ by Li Jianglin who is living in US and visiting Dharamsala. This is the first book by a ethnic Han trying to know and understand the truth of events of March 1959. I hope you will read it and tell what do you think about it.
Chinese engineer
In May 2008, massive earthquake in Sichuan killed over 100000 innocent people. Amongst the worst hit were over 10000 small school children who were killed when their schools were in session. And out of the tens of school buildings that collapsed, in some not even a single student survived. Most of these students were under 15 yr old.
In an interesting turn of event, many govt. buildings that stood around these destroyed school buildings were intact. As the entire area falls under seismic zone, to witness some buildings survived and some reduced to rubble, it just reveals the worst in humanity which I’m sure even CCP wont disagree – lack of even semblance of care for others while making sure they are themselves well taken care of.
In short, this happened precisely because ‘morality didn’t find place in the lists’ of chinese people. Chinese builders, construction workers and engineers who were responsible for the construction of the buildings in the first place were so corrupt to the core and morally bankrupt, that despite knowing that they were constructing schools for small children on an earthquake prone land which would one day be hit by the deadly disaster, used shoddy construction materials, disregarded building codes and standards, showed utter lack of concerns for human life, and thus deliberately created one of the worst man-made disasters to happen in Chinese history.
The worst doesn’t end there. Ugliest part is, the place where they (builders, engineers) and their collaborators would live, have offices right next to those schools – the govt buildings, they made sure nothing happens to them when earthquake stroke. I have no doubt in my mind that one those engineers are right here in the blog! Pathetic!
>Chinese Engineer,
“Morality in this day and age is superfluous. Moral justification is never the foremost criterion in any strategic decision making. In fact, it probably won’t even make it onto the list.”
WOW!… but then again, what can I expect from a Chinese whose brain is filled with Maoist junk.
It is not that I don’t understand how the world of subhumans like you works, in fact I can confidently say I know far better than you do. The question really is whether China, or for that matter, the Chinese people have the courage and principle to acknowledge their mistakes and hold their government accountable to correct the wrongs it has done not only to people of other nationalities but also to the Chinese people themselves.
It seems that the Chinese people have been brain raped for so long that they have now resigned themselves to enjoy it. They have become Willing Slaves of the Communist Party.
I am hoping not all the Chinese have pea-brains like yours.
H. Ding,
Can you tell me the publisher or the distributer of the book 159 Lhasa.
Thanks.
yangchen
No one gets ahead by being the nice guy. No one finishes first by playing fair.
Sangay
I don’t work in construction.
Kalsang Phuntsok
“the question really is whether China, or for that matter, the Chinese people have the courage and principle to acknowledge their mistakes”
This statement does not instill confidence in your claim of understanding of the “subhuman” world.
To be quite blunt, your posts reek of a profound level of stupidity.
Instead of a drawn out rebuttal against your rather trivial views, let me finish this post by stating that:
despite the myriad claims of the inferiority of the Chinese mind and the inadequacies of the Chinese state, it is the heel of a Chinese jackboot that is, according to you, grinding the face of the collective Tibetan race into the ground, and towards oblivion.
How did this come to pass? I leave the answer of this obviously rhetorical question to you.
Chinese Engineer,
You are quite focused on might making right, and the powerlessness of morality.
Yet government abuse of those very things–power and justice/morality–can backfire and cause mass incidents which actually threaten the government’s power.
For example, when a local government’s favorite construction company steamrolls over private property, exercising “might is right,” and ignoring “morality,” the chance of a mass incident skyrockets.
So it’s not as simple as “who could knockout whom” if you lined up plastic PAP and plastic Tibetans on a toy map of the world featuring no doubt a recently-Chinese Arunachal Pradesh. Sure, technically the PAP, who would eventually be overrun regardless of symmetry, could call in the PLA who could then blow everyone to bits.
But blowing everyone to bits, either in China or Tibet, is not the goal of the Chinese government. The goal is far more sticky and real, which is to have calm and prosperity (at various lethal costs to various populations, but overall still seeking calm and prosperity.)
So, if only because the CCP is morbidly leery of chaos, it really does have to answer to a certain amount of “right instead of might” and “morality” pressures from the people, or the people will throw yet more flower pots at the cadres.
When it can get away with it under cover of darkness, the CCP and many governments would steamroll over people in many situations to “get things done,” on a good day or line their pockets on a bad day. But that’s where citizens again factor in, including liberal hippies.
So I guess my observation is, unless the psychotic Strike-Hard clique achieves their dream of turning China into West North Korea, “weak” unarmed citizens do have surprising power, morality does matter, and even liberal hippies can serve a purpose.
Jamyang Norbu la,
The book is published by Linkingbooks in Taiwan
http://www.linkingbooks.com.tw/pro/178145n.asp
and by New Century Books at Hong Kong
http://newcenturymc.com/1959%20Lhasa.html
If you want one copy of the book, please contact me by email.
Chinese Engineer,
Fortunately for us, there are human beings living in this world too. And I try to be one of them despite people like you making it very hard.
I know the answer to your question; its your inability to control your animalistic instints, reproducing uncontrolably, sucking up all that nature can provide, kill each other for ages, and then invade a new area and start mulitiplying again. There is one other organism that follows that pattern, its called Virus. Morality surely doesn’t count for viruses. The only thing it does is infect other living bodies and reproduce.
If every Chinese thinks the way you do then, it should be the duty of every rational man and woman of this world to do every thing in their power to eradicate China to save this planet, even if it means the extinction of human race because as long as morally bankrupt willing slaves like you are living in it with your trigger happiness, the world is doomed any ways.
My dear Tibetan brothers and sisters here,
Please don’t be upset by this ‘Chinese Engineer’. If you are angry, that is exactly he want.
His Holiness Dalai Lama told the world: ‘Tibet issue is a moral issue’. More and more people are listening to His Holiness.
His Holiness also told us that Tibetan people should be confident.
I am an ethnic Chinese. And I am an 100% follower of His Holiness.
Don’t argue with this ‘Engineer’. That makes no sense. We should work hard to talk to Chinese people like His Holiness is doing.
H Ding,
Thanks very much for the link; I was having a hard time locating the book online. I look forward to reading it.
my personal view that the tibetan not know the law of life, one of laws of life that any creature assault other creature the other creature would defend his-self, for simple example if a man get sick becouse of bacteria the body defenses(white blood) of a man would fight the bacteria to defend the body this the law of life and that what tibetan don’t know,the tibetan should defend them self against the chinese occupation to there land,tibetan should learn frome the chinese what there do when japanese occupied nanking,the chinese tooke up arms to defend there land that what tibetan should do, and look to algerian liberate there land frome french and the new independence kosovo frome serbia and east timore from indonesia and american frome british and there are so many examples, tibetan should learn from this,I m not advocate to the violence but that the law of life,and tibetan should know other thing even if china collapse frome it self tibet well not independence becouse there are so many chinese in tibet,chinese are dominant in every thing in tibet becouse of this that not let tibet independence even if china collapse, the tibetan should not wait to collapse china frome itself,tibetan should liberate there land from them self,and not wait from forigen to liberate there land, tibetan should learn self-reliant,thats my own view.
Chinese engineer,
“No one gets ahead by being the nice guy. No one finishes first by playing fair”
Wow, now that sums up who you are, how your thought process works, and what can be expected from you.
To put our differences in bigger context, it’s exactly the representative of philosophical divided between the two people – Tibetan and Chinese. One is guided by the belief that If you can’t help others, atleast don’t hurt; and the other follows exactly the opposite of it, that’s hurting, stealing, lying are fair game as long as there’s gain/profit to be had, respectively.
Chinese Engineer, guess what, at this rate of speed of your thinking, I’m confident in ten years you will surpass animals that live in jungle. I just hope you will not teach your children to steal to get rich, or lie to succeed.
H Ding,
I always feel good to come across morally driven chinese like you who seem to see the wrongs they have done.
I hope you will support independence for Tibet. By giving independence, China will lose nothing – Tibet was never a part of China, nor ever belonged to China.
And by supporting complete independence for Tibet, you will have shown your honesty and lived upto what you believe!
Sangay Sangay Sangay…
“I hope you will support independence for Tibet. By giving independence, China will lose nothing – Tibet was never a part of China, nor ever belonged to China.
And by supporting complete independence for Tibet, you will have shown your honesty and lived upto what you believe!”
I see that you display the same magnitude of stupidity as our dear friend Kalsang Phuntsok.
China has EVERYTHING to lose and NOTHING to gain from such an exchange. Tibet is of major strategic significance to the well being of the Chinese state. Even when we look at the TAR itself, and not “historical” Tibet, the strategic implications should be obvious: high ground vs the Indians, unexploited metal and mineral deposits, a major source of fresh water.
What does the People’s Republic receive in return if all these are given away? The fleeting goodwill of a people too few and too inept to matter? A few seconds of not-so-murky portrayal in the Western media? Shakier territorial integrity?
You, my friend, along with many others here, misunderstand me. I don’t come here to advertise my personal position on the Tibetan independence issue. That view is mine and mine alone, and I do not believe myself significant enough to broadcast it. I am here because there is a very real disconnect between the Rangzen members here and reality, a reality that is very harsh for many of you.
There has never been one picture and one picture only for how China can exist. China never used to include Tibet, and developed fine without it.
Most Chinese living in Tibet would return to China in a flash if the incentives were removed; it’s not like Tibet is home.
However peaceful India seems now, things can change, and there is a historical strength in having buffer states. The Soviet Union got greedy and collapsed party because of this greed; too much area to control, too many people who didn’t feel “Russian,” and too large a border.
Internet Commentators like to make the “point” that the west will immediately set up military bases in Tibet if it becomes independent; the reality is that these bases are far less likely in an independent buffer state, whereas if India and “China” (CCP-militarised Tibet) get to the point of a conflict (always more likely with a long shared border), allied forces would have an easier time justifying military presence there, than they would suddenly plunking them down for no reason in Tibet.
It’s always tempting to assume “more land” and “more position options” = strength, but that’s often not the case at all.
Conflict costs money, and the CCP is spending loads of budget controlling Tibetans, funding soldiers in Tibet (at 3x the cost of funding one in Guangdong for example), shipping supplies, etc. The combined economic benefit of managing less land and people, over shorter distances, plus trading with what would become an enormous and heavily traveled tourist destination, would be very large. Right now Tibet makes money chiefly in the resources dug out of her, but at huge economic, environmental and social cost (meaning rising unrest which will eventually begin to drain China’s budget in all kinds of new ways).
It’s really worth considering a world where Tibet is a demilitarised, free-trade zone, which India could not easily invade without generating international uproar, as opposed to a Tibet which is a budget-suck, and which India could all too easily justify crossing into in the event of continued PLA incursions. The CCP feels nothing can touch it, and this greed and strutting have led many a nation to downfall before.
chinese engineer,
when weaker occupied people like palestinians and chechens fight back, their immediate goal should be very obvious, given the overall might of the occupiers, which is to wear and tear the forces of the oppressors through the strategy of everywhere and nowhere, and nowhere and everywhere, not to defeat it militarily.
greater the economic power of the occupiers, ironically, greater the cause of its own vulnerability should the oppressed people decide to fight back to the last man.
talibanization of tibet, east turkestan and south mongolia can be very costly to you, and no joke even to your might is right arrogance. palestinians lost only five thousand lives so far, israel continues to pay heavily.
israel is a cornered cat; china is not.
herein lies the difference in motive
and the strength of determination
in the face of eternal losses
I think Chinese Engineer is right to point out how most people in the world see Chinese occupation of Tibet: strategic & economic advantage.
Neither the UN nor any country so far has made any priority of the moral argument, and most, including the so-called liberal progressive democracies, cower to PRC demands like not officially meeting HHDL.
Any strategy and tactics to gain more autonomy or self-sufficiency or independence for Tibetans that neglects to consider and respond to this view successfully will have difficulties succeeding.
The Tibetans DO however HAVE one advantage: millenia of institutional inertia vis-a-vis clerical establishment. That has been around millenia longer than PRC, and, to the frustrations of Rang’dzin-pas, doesn’t see 100-200 years PRC interference as long wait. This is why HHDL’s non-violent approach need not be considered sentimental.
Activists can and indeed do succeed, eventually, with relentless moral campaigns, by changing the thinking of individuals comprising societies and governments one by one.
In the meantime, I humbly suggest Tibetan refugees buy Tibet back, dollar by dollar.
wait and watch another 100 to 200 years? wow only to witness our own demise as a people? 100 million chinese inside tibet in 100 years! 300 in 200 years! 6 million tibetans in america! no wonder i sometimes wish this buddhism had never entered tibet. 1300 years of conditioning has taken its toll on us. i for one am not proud of it. being honest about the lack of falsifiability on things after life or anything is far better than the pretence to know the existence of the unproved! after life reward and punishment! by the god of karma!
if you can’t help others; atleast don’t harm them sits well with the realities of this world. beyond that it’s just bs to me.
technically speaking HH approach is not non-violent; it is non action. non violence is not merely an absence of violence. from his birth till this day i have not seen a single act of nonviolent direct action on the part of hh, a self proclaimed follower of gandhi, confronting the ccp and poking its conscience , if at all it has one, peacefully in any shape or form in the streets of oppression.
but that is not to say his office work and travelling and messages are not as powerful as osho’s hamering of the insanity of the whole world his whole life more or less from the desert of oregon.
but what gud is the power of words when the direction is just plain wrong?
buying tibet dollar by dollar? can you please elaborate on it? thanx ani!
let me know if you want the phone number of aku tonpa! well, i like his raw humor. blink! blink!
Chinese Engineer raises valid points which cannot be denied or ignored. Realpolitik motivates most modern states/governments, and despite centuries of culturally and socially obfuscatory claims among many nationalities and ethnic groups, their governments were always motivated by realpolitik. In the West, we have set it up now so that realpolitik is aligned now with standards of living and social good will, but these didn’t develop because of the innate goodness of such practices. They developed out of violent revolutions. So states in the West have an interest in keeping people happy so as to avoid further instances of those types of violence.
Governments should fear their people’s power. It keeps things more honest, but nothing is going to be perfect. And too much fear will lead to governments and states doing more stupid things.
In the case of Tibet, it is might makes right. China has the military, social, and economic power to maintain control. Take one of those three away and it gets more ambiguous.
A line from a Suicidal Tendencies song sums up the current situation in our world: “The greatest weapon of the fascists is tolerance of the pacifists.”
China could even submit to worldwide activist moral-think and grant all of Tibet unity under a newer autonomy, with HH the Dalai Lama returning and all of that. And still maintain total control over the situation. But here is the one catch. China doesn’t have to do anything other than what it is doing in Tibet now. And THEY know it.
It is time activists realize that. False confidence over cracks in the empire growing will not do a damned thing but delude people and lead to burn out because the tactics for changing the situation aren’t working in the long run.
So it is time to fess up to the truth. Yes, Tibet is not Chinese, historically or culturally. But China currently runs Tibet and they are confident that they will keep doing so. The greatest thing to exploit in this situation is that the oppressed (in this case Tibetans) must learn more about their oppressor (the Chinese) than their oppressor would care to know about their oppressed. Perhaps this is an avenue that needs to be addressed.
Non-violence is useful only for asymmetric confrontations…blah blah blah. We’ve heard this all before. What we need are more people willing to look with a cold eye and heart at the situation. So what needs to be done can be done.
To wreck a colony, you must destroy its institutions and supporters. Make the colonists afraid of breathing too loud. It will be a long while before China as a government is afraid. Simply put, they know what they are doing, and they have the implicit support of world states/governments. Do we know what we are doing?
prediction from pundits in dhasa!
Nearer we get to the voting day, higher rages the voting fever! As expected, with the flaws in our election system, things are getting regional however unfortunate it might be.
Looks like the final battle for katri position will be among godrukpa, Lobsang Sangay, and Tetong. 90% of the dotoes will vote for Lithang
Lobsang, and majority of the educated youth regardless of their provincial affiliation will vote for him. They are very much impressed by his PhD and energy! Utsang vote will be divided between GODRUKPA and Tetong. If one of them steps down later, then whoever stays to fight will win!
If both decide to stay, Lobsang will win!
People ask me why I support Godrukpa. I reply this guy is not perfect. he disappointed me thoroughly with 2007 mass protest perfomance in delhi that did not last a single day! but i cannot deny there is a sharp brain behind his
bold tongue! On our semi-democracy and independence. Yes, i know chithues decide
on things everything. Still firebrand leadership will atleast pump some life
into our collective political awareness.
INDEPENDENCE COMES TO THOSE WHO DARE AND ACT; IT NEVER GOES TO THE TIMID WHO ARE AFRAID OF THE CONSEQUENCES…NERHU
Afghanistan 19 August 1919 (from UK a from Russia in 1991)
Albania 28 November 1912 (from Ottoman Empire)
Algeria 5 July 1962 (from France)
Angola 11 November 1975 (from Portugal)
Antigua and Barbuda 1 November 1981 (from UK)
Argentina 9 July 1816 (from Spain)
Armenia 21 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Austria 1156 (from Bavaria)
Azerbaijan 30 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Bahamas, The 10 July 1973 (from UK)
Bahrain 15 August 1971 (from UK)
Bangladesh 16 December 1971 (from West Pakistan
Barbados 30 November 1966 (from UK)
Belarus 25 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Belgium 21 July 1831 (from the Netherlands)
Belize 21 September 1981 (from UK)
Benin 1 August 1960 (from France)
Bhutan 8 August 1949 (from India)
Bolivia 6 August 1825 (from Spain)
Bosnia and Herzegovina 1 March 1992 (from Yugoslavia)
Botswana 30 September 1966 (from UK)
Brazil 7 September 1822 (from Portugal)
Brunei 1 January 1984 (from UK)
Bulgaria 3 March 1878 (from Ottoman Empire)
Burkina Faso 5 August 1960 (from France)
Burma 4 January 1948 (from UK)
Cambodia 9 November 1953 (from France)
Cameroon 1 January 1960 (from France)
Canada 1 July 1867 (from UK)
Cape Verde 5 July 1975 (from Portugal)
Central African Republic 13 August 1960 (from France)
Chad 11 August 1960 (from France)
Chile 18 September 1810 (from Spain)
Colombia 20 July 1810 (from Spain)
Comoros 6 July 1975 (from France)
Congo, Democratic Republic of the 30 June 1960 (from Belgium)
Congo, Republic of the 15 August 1960 (from France)
Costa Rica 15 September 1821 (from Spain)
Cote d’Ivoire 7 August (1960) (from France)
Croatia 25 June 1991 (from Yugoslavia)
Cuba 20 May 1902 (from US)
Cyprus 16 August 1960 (from UK
Djibouti 27 June 1977 (from France)
Dominica 3 November 1978 (from UK)
Dominican Republic 27 February 1844 (from Haiti)
East Timor 20 May 2002 (from Indonesia)
Ecuador 24 May 1822 (from Spain)
Egypt 28 February 1922 (from UK)
El Salvador 15 September 1821 (from Spain)
Equatorial Guinea 12 October 1968 (from Spain)
Eritrea 24 May 1993 (from Ethiopia)
Estonia 6 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Fiji 10 October 1970 (from UK)
Finland 6 December 1917 (from Russia)
Gabon 17 August 1960 (from France)
Gambia, The 18 February 1965 (from UK)
Georgia 9 April 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Ghana 6 March 1957 (from UK)
Greece 1829 (from the Ottoman Empire)
Grenada 7 February 1974 (from UK)
Guatemala 15 September 1821 (from Spain)
Guinea 2 October 1958 (from France)
Guyana 26 May 1966 (from UK)
Haiti 1 January 1804 (from France)
Holy See (Vatican City) 11 February 1929 (from Italy)
Honduras 15 September 1821 (from Spain)
Iceland 17 June 1944 (from Denmark)
India 15 August 1947 (from UK)
Indonesia 17 August 1945 (from Netherlands)
Iraq 3 October 1932 (UK)
Jamaica 6 August 1962 (from UK)
Kazakhstan 16 December 1991 (from the Soviet Union)
Kenya 12 December 1963 (from UK)
Kiribati 12 July 1979 (from UK)
Korea, North 15 August 1945 (from Japan)
Korea, South 15 August 1945 (from Japan)
Kuwait 19 June 1961 (from UK)
Kyrgyzstan 31 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Laos 19 July 1949 (from France)
Latvia 18 November 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Lesotho 4 October 1966 (from UK)
Libya 24 December 1951 (from Italy)
Lithuania 11 March 1990 (independence declared from Soviet Union
Luxembourg 1839 (from the Netherlands)
Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 17 September 1991 (from Yugoslavia)
Madagascar 26 June 1960 (from France)
Malawi 6 July 1964 (from UK)
Malaysia 31 August 1957 (from UK)
Maldives 26 July 1965 (from UK)
Mali 22 September 1960 (from France)
Malta 21 September 1964 (from UK)
Mauritania 28 November 1960 (from France)
Mauritius 12 March 1968 (from UK)
Mexico 16 September 1810 (from Spain)
Moldova 27 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Mongolia 11 July 1921 (from China)
Morocco 2 March 1956 (from France)
Mozambique 25 June 1975 (from Portugal)
Netherlands 1579 (from Spain)
New Zealand 26 September 1907 (from UK)
Nicaragua 15 September 1821 (from Spain)
Niger 3 August 1958 (from France)
Nigeria 1 October 1960 (from UK)
Oman 1650 (expulsion of the Portuguese)
Pakistan 14 August 1947 (from UK)
Panama 3 November 1903 (from Colombia; became independent from Spain 28 November 1821)
Paraguay 14 May 1811 (from Spain)
Peru 28 July 1821 (from Spain)
Philippines 4 July 1946 (from US)
Qatar 3 September 1971 (from UK)
Romania 1881 (from Turkey)
Russia 24 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Saint Kitts and Nevis 19 September 1983 (from UK)
Saint Lucia 22 February 1979 (from UK)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 27 October 1979 (from UK)
San Marino 3 September 301
Sao Tome and Principe 12 July 1975 (from Portugal)
Serbia May 2006 ( independence from Yugoslavia)
Seychelles 29 June 1976 (from UK)
Sierra Leone 27 April 1961 (from UK)
Singapore 9 August 1965 (from Malaysia)
Slovakia 1 January 1993 (Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia)
Slovenia 25 June 1991 (from Yugoslavia)
Solomon Islands 7 July 1978 (from UK)
Somalia 1 July 1960 ( from the UK and Italia)
South Africa 31 May 1910 (from UK)
Sri Lanka 4 February 1948 (from UK)
Sudan 1 January 1956 (from Egypt and UK)
Suriname 25 November 1975 (from Netherlands)
Swaziland 6 September 1968 (from UK)
Tajikistan 9 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Trinidad and Tobago 31 August 1962 (from UK)
Tunisia 20 March 1956 (from France)
Turkmenistan 27 October 1991 (from the Soviet Union)
Tuvalu 1 October 1978 (from UK)
Uganda 9 October 1962 (from UK)
Ukraine 24 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
United Arab Emirates 2 December 1971 (from UK)
United States 4 July 1776 (from Great Britain)
Uruguay 25 August 1825 (from Brazil)
Uzbekistan 1 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Vanuatu 30 July 1980 (from France and UK)
Venezuela 5 July 1811 (from Spain)
Vietnam 2 September 1945 (from France)
Zambia 24 October 1964 (from UK)
Zimbabwe 18 April 1980 (from UK)
Hugh,
Chinese Engineer says “Don’t fight for independence because it’s hopeless. I see no point here.
Hi Tsering la
I think Chinese Engineer has point If he said” don’t fight for independence because it’s hopeless”. The point is hopeless.
I disagree say he has no point. The point is so clear and that is ” hopeless”.
If you disagree or you don’t like his point then that is another story.
It is so clear Chinese Enigineer is a chinese or someone support Communist China and he trys so hard pointed out some of things we don’t agree.
I just wanted to say that much here.
thanks
Choni,
All that chinese engineer is doing here is to break our resolve for independence with the power of his intelectual liquidity. I for one will not fall for it. This is what the ccp wants. Any way, what’s the alternative? Suck chink balls till we drop dead?
I want any one who claim the chinese don’t have a freedom to look to the protest happened in china,they are several protest in china Occur from non-problem,for example like now pro-cantonese language protest happened in guangdong and hong kong and look how the police dealing with this protest,the protest finished without any arrested or killings or injuries,there are very big difference between the protest happend in china and protest happened in tibet or east turkistan,any protest happened in tibet or east turkistan even not political like what happen in nearby day tibetan protest in shigatse in evironment issue not apolitical and how very badly chinese police dealing with this show in some image in site student for free tibet,en any protest occur in tibet or east turkistan this is Condition to end in killing and arrested and injuries in very large numbers,becouse of this chinese are prochina government,not becouse some claims that communist party brainwashed chinese,on the evidence that every one look how chinese in olimpic game live outside china like USA and canada and france and japan and germany and malaysia and other whole world how they are protest in prochina government,this becouse chinese already have freedom and live in prosperity.
@Mila,
Yes, waiting 200+ years for change is infuriating, and believe me when I tell you i also find the clerical establishment typical archaic mentality fossilized almost beyond hope, (still arguing AGAINST education credentials for women, for example, etc.,etc.,etc.!) but occasionally one sees cracks of light in the new generations. But we have to face up to the fact that probably here are people who think in this long term view.
Re the buy-back theory: well, every Tibetan I know has 1 relative in south India, 1 in Dharamsala, 1 in Lhasa, 1 in Nepal and/or Darjeeling, in 1 in Taiwan, 1 in Europe/UK or USA, 1 in Taiwan or HK, etc. (and when we say 1 we mean 1 whole family unit typically) In other words, each Tibetan family is like a miniature worldwide distribution system. There must be a way to mobilize it for capital investment in Tibet, owned by each family/friend network,etc. Stop Lhasa Tibetans buying from every shop but only from their friends and relatives, etc. Already one sees lots of Tibetans in Kathmandu doing lots of business back and forth Lhasa-KTM all the time, usually with owning 2 houses in each place!
Response to 1234
You cannot compare protest in China to protests in Tibet and East Turkistan, for one thing the PAP, PLA, political fat cats and the Han majority are predisposition to view any kind of peaceful protest as “Anti China” and are hardwired with hair triggers. As with the 208 Tibet protests that started in Lhasa, it all began peacefully but the Chinese did not want it to be peaceful and to create anger, misunderstanding and Han hysteria; dressed up young Chinese PLA with monk’s robes and under-cover agents as Tibetans and began the looting and rioting with connivance of the Chinese authorities and the Chinese press to tarnish Tibetans reputation as peaceful people. This is not just hear-say, but has been documented by BBC and other media. Despite all the evidence available to prove the facts, Han people still believe that western media fabricated the evidence to undermine China’s “rising power”. Chinese public by and large are most atrociously bigoted and suspicion prone when it comes to “other” people. Therefore, with this kind of attitude, “a harmonious society” is Han China’s opium cloud ready to burst.
does any have any clue whether Gyalo Dhondup is writing his autobiography, or whether anyone is writing it for him? if not, we should request him to write one, as he’s an important historical person in tibet issue. thanks.
to gyalpot
you are misunderstanding me,Im not blame tibetan and uyghur for bloody protest,I blame the chinese army how they are discriminate against tibetan and uyghur if they protest,if any tibetan do protest chinese will shoot them,I know the chinese media lie and fabricate the protest happened in tibet,they imagine tibetan as violence To justify why they use brutality against tibetan,unlike the chinese,if chinese do protest in china,chinese army dealing very big difference,my point is to explain why most chinese prochina government unlike tibetan and uyghur,becouse chinese have afreedom to go and protest and do worker strike freely,not becouse some claim that the chinese are barinwahsed.
To 1234
Thank you for your explanation and for graciously accepting that the PLA, PAP and the PSB are unduly brutal when it comes to putting down peaceful protests, when it involves Tibetans and East Turkistan. Tibetans also believe that the many ordinary Chinese people have also suffered at the hands of these monstrous cliques whose only ideology is to hold on to power regardless of the suffering they cause. We also believe, that there are many Chinese people who can see through the communist propaganda and rise above it; yet they are so few and under constant surveillance that they are powerless to help. Now with regard to the Cantonese language protests, this is a different ball game as this involves about 60 million non Mandarin speaking “Cantonese” who wield a considerable amount of financial power and the politburo cannot afford at any cost to alienate them, therefore, it is in the interest of the Beijing to treat them with “special” care. Thus it is not because the Beijing fat cats have any moral compunction to grant freedoms but because their very existence could come under threat should the situation reach a crisis point.
Chinese Engineer,
You said, “You seem to lack an understanding of how the real world works, so allow me to point out what should be obvious.”
Right back at you. You seem delusional about the important question of how your so-called real world might be improved. It’s impermanent and therefore entirely possible to change, so instead of doing things that will run it into the ground and go all to hell, let’s try and make it better, OK? That much is truly obvious.
gyalpot
“Now with regard to the Cantonese language protests, this is a different ball game as this involves about 60 million non Mandarin speaking “Cantonese” who wield a considerable amount of financial power and the politburo cannot afford at any cost to alienate them”
This isn’t the whole issue, but certainly a big part of it. Of course this brings back the question of viable leverage. Why should the CCP relinquish their “stranglehold” on Tibet when there is no incentive for them to?
Don
I will spare you the opening diatribes reserved for such of your…caliber. Let me get right to the point.
1) No state actor has the welfare of the entire world as its overriding objective.
2) What’s good for one party is not necessarily good for another. Granularity isn’t a concern here. This is both a fundamental law of economics and an underlying concern of political science (the other being you can’t be everyone’s friend).
Taking (1) and (2), I think it is then obvious that
a) Tibetans (in exile) has an agenda that runs counter to those of the PRC, and Tibetans have no real leverage vis-a-vis the PRC. (why? because if they did, they would have used it to get results. The very fact that there has been no improvement in the Tibetan cause in the Chinese perspective confirms as much)
b) Because of (a), from the CCP’s perspective, the current Tibetan situation is acceptable, if not optimum (Chinese feet dragging and inaction is a good indication of such. Also, see my case on viable leverage in post 26).
If you, or anyone, want to debate this conclusion, then you must either must break (a) or come up with another framework that is embedded in the REAL WORLD. I doubt you can achieve much success in the latter.
to gyalpot
the china government can’t remain in power if they lose ordinary chinese,becouse if this chinese government always Satisfied chinese,I read once essay said that ho jintao follow the policy of appeasement chinese becouse he know if chinese Not satisfied this threat his government,for example you can look since year the news said 20 millions chinese unemployment,china govenrment Moved quickly to provide work to chinese,becouse china government fear to angry chinese,you can look to the protest in china and hong kong they are thousands protester passed without any problem and worker strike,One of the policies of china to satisfied chinese transfer chinese to tibet and east turkistan and they give to the chinese Everything from money and a house and good job and give ten thousand yuan reward to any chinese immigrants that choose to live in tibet or east turkistan,the result of this Preferential treatment to chinese you can look how tibetan and uyghur very poor and homeless and jobless great suffering for this policies unlike the chinese rich and prosperity who live in tibet and east turkistan,you can look how are most chinese are support china government in olimpic game,It is certain if half chinese are antichina government chinese communist party CANNOT reamin in power,yes they are very few chinese suffring but not degree to tibetan and uyghur.
GEN JAMYANG LAK…..
I REALLY APPRECIATE FOR TIRELESS DEDICATION TO OUR POLITICAL ISSUE. IT IS REALLY TRUE THAT the way chinese treat us is much more harsh than what nazi had done on jewish poeple.
genla i am looking forward to see your article on tibetan school children which you promised us when you came to our tcv gopalpur school last year.
thanking you
yours sincerely
tsering tashi
Chinese engneer.
Your ‘Real world’, ‘Agenda’, and finally ‘no leverage’ are without any substantial analytical rational explanation …just a childish ploy.
To Chinese engineer
“This isn’t the whole issue, but certainly a big part of it. Of course this brings back the question of viable leverage. Why should the CCP relinquish their “stranglehold” on Tibet when there is no incentive for them to?”
So based on your theory of dog eat dog, you imply that China placed no value on the teaching of Confucius, whose philosophy emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity. Therefore, you now stick your tongue out at his great teachings and would reverse the fame he brought to China with notoriety and barbarism at any cost?
Putting REAL WORLD in all capitals is real useful. Thanks, now I’ll have to accept that you know what that is.
(A) Arguing over im/morality the weaker party has no better path to pursue than follow HHDL because he arguably commands the highest moral ground.
(B) Arguing over real-politic the weaker party can either follow the Maoists to fight guerrilla warfare or our Muslim brothers to engage in Tibetan Jihads to greatly increase the human and financial costs of Chinese occupation.
Option (A) will lead to worldwide spread of Tibetan Buddhism outside Tibet (an ongoing process at this moment), at the very expense of demographic and cultural Sinification of Tibet.
Option (B), if indeed carried out and supported by a majority of Tibetans, would inflict heavy demographic and financial costs for both parties but weaken the political will of occupation and may crack it open for the eventual collapse of the CPC as other anti-CPC forces join forces. The only price Tibet has to pay by engaging armed struggle (Maoist or Islamicist) is the loss of Buddhism in Tibet and its worldwide defeat.
Given the glory of the pre-Buddhist Tibetan empire, Option (B) clearly will allow Tibet to free itself from the shackles of Chinese occupation AND that of religious self-delusion–the “opium of the people” that has brought Tibet to its miserable present.
You arm-chair Tibetan nationalists here, take action (B) or do nothing (A). There is no Third Way beyond these two options. Ha Ha!
salar, good one!
Jamyang la, why TIPA has reduced the history of Trisong Detsen to just propagation of Buddhism.
I believe to the best my knowledge that he played a very significant political role and Tibet reached its zenith during his time.
So why TIPA just reduce legacy to Buddhism?
if someone broke into your homes, killing your family and stealing or breaking things..wat u will do….?run to other house to call help or fight back before its too late….
if tibet needs independence than they have to fight from their own land not from other island got it………. fight back before its too late………..
to yeti
I agree with your view,unfortunatly tibetan not know this,my view is the reason the chinese occupation to tibet continues becouse tibetan stop fighting,the great tibetan uprising in 1959 If it continues certainly tibet well gain independence like what other countries do,but tibetan stop fighting and follow the aproach non-action and always Request for help always begging,becouse of this the world and china look to tibet as weak,tibet well not gain independence by request help from the world,tibet well get independence by fighting and sacrifaces.
To 1234
I thinks Tibetan stoping fight long ago because strong religen hope next life beeter life not because the world don’t care Tibetan. Tibetan will gain independent if Yeti and mila rengzen organize one million strong fighter with ak74 and hipi supporters to fight day and night. good lucky.
non-violence is a side dish….India didn’t get independence only through non violence, peace talk and requesting…… they sacrifice lots lots of lives……..they seek help of Japanese, Germany etc for arms to fight against British empire…so only through non violence u cant shake the dragon empire got it(Tibetan)…..
Chinese had fought with more then 10 nation at one time in their history….so Tibet issue they just take it as morning walk…Tibetan have to work very hard and learn lots of tactics to destroy its enemy not merelyyyyyyy non violence …will not work for u guyssss wake up Tibetans before the dragon pee all over ur snow mt and melt…….
jam-yang la,
Most of people say that Tibetan cant fight with Chinese by picking up weapons and recruit army…do u think its true??
1: wat abt iraq, american still can settle the irag issue even they have best tech weapons
2: nato forces still burning their ass in afghan desert, wat taliban have……? think abt it
3: hammas are making isreal wake up every night wont let them sleep and eat well.
4: Naxals of india, indian govt dont know wat to do.
And there are so many like that in this world who fight die and kill for their country and brothers. Then why tibetans cant coz tibetan had habit of getting everything in free and granted……this is wrong….no pain no gain
thousand of Chinese died under Japanese army….now they are pride nation……there is different way of digging gold…so i think tibetans have to learn lots of tactics…..
i think they are too innocent or too scared to die…guys there is next life if u die u will born again………
there may be a few individual actions as such here and there inside tibet or elsewhere in the future but as a team, such a dance is unlikely to materialize as long as we have HH as head of state or for that matter any lama govt. in the province of war and danger HH is tibet’s greatest weakness. even the 2008 peaceful demonstrations were thoroughly discouraged with a threat issued by HH THAT HE WOULD ABANDON OUR CAUSE if tibetans continued with the protests!
the fighting spirit of taliban is the answer to chinese oppression and its evil designs.
to mila rangzen
your view is totaly true,but what you write about dalai lama said when tibetan protest in 2008 this is the great shocking,I don’t know why tibetan is silent about what dalai lama said,why tibetan not speak about why not doing election in president tibet government in exile but only election on prime minister,dalai lama president government exile for sixty years what well everyone lable this?this is totaly dictatorship,tibetan should take action and question authority of dalai lama if tibetan realy want to independence from china.
yeti and 1234,
why r u deliberately writing gramatically like a 5th grader? i can tell from the flow of your thoughts you can write far better! are you afraid of being caught by friends or? ! there is no risk here to your limbs. i appreciate it if u come up with your real name so i can befriend you, and we can meet offline in ny on regular basis. i love to walk and i love to talk! in many ways you are my kind of guy. so far made only 2 friends from this blog in the past year. my circle of friends with whom i walk regularly in ny are not at all interested in politics, logic, writing etc it sucks! my brain remains stagnant. i m desperate. so help!
if you believe(not just desire) in independence and secular bi-party democracy please call me at 917-889-0421 and we will walk the talk. no gender discrimination! big thanks.
btw, what did ex-rtyc phurbu ask HH at the tyc meeting in dhasa? n wat was HH’s response or reaction?
For me and many other Tibetans both in and outside Tibet, His Holiness is the only leader we can trust. We have seen Kalons leaving office for America and Canada etc. And leaders engaging internal fights and playing blame games.
It is the His Holiness who gives us hope, education, respect and strength.
I have heard, fortunately never seen, that in seventies and eighties, many Tibetan college going youngsters were hiding their identity. Because they feel ashamed to say i am a Tibetan. Some of you may be one of them!
Nowadays no Tibetan feel ashamed of being a Tibetan. It is simple. We have an excellent leader.
Mr/Ms Yeti
It is true that Americans could not do much about the Iraq and Afghan problems. And Isrealis are always worrying about the attacks from all sides, especailly the Hamas. And Naxals are creating major problems in India. And they all use violence.
But most fundamental questions are remained unanswered. Do they achieved their goal? Do they have any chance to achieve their goals? Who is winning? Who is losing?
These are the questions we must ask ourselves.
CHINESE ENGINEER.
I have committed to spending as much time as you are worth in my long delayed response to your note. However, I am afraid that in the last 28 seconds I have exceeded the alloted time by 29 seconds. LOL.
Sharma Patel
we lost our homeland in 1959. apart from chinese, who or what else was responsible for the loss and shame? do we have the balls to own our own inadequacies? with no rangzen direction in dhasa, and with no indo-tibet border infiltration policy in kashag, it’s ok not having to see these kalons and their families starving in the gutters of gangki, but flourishing like many other everyday tibetans in the west.
with a kashag policy
of suck and lick!
lick and suck
suck suck suck!
lick lick lick
who wouldn’t get tired?
i m not surprised!
but deng had a great time!
lipeng, chiangzemin too!
now grandpa hujintao and
grandma wenjaibo!
from the hundred nations below that regained their independence after 1959 through a long and protracted struggle, the great lesson it teaches us is “only weak people believe in instant results!”
1. Afghanistan ( from Russia in 1991)
Algeria 5 July 1962 (from France)
Angola 11 November 1975 (from Portugal)
Antigua and Barbuda 1 November 1981 (from UK)
Armenia 21 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Azerbaijan 30 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Bahamas, The 10 July 1973 (from UK)
Bahrain 15 August 1971 (from UK)
Bangladesh 16 December 1971 (from West Pakistan
Barbados 30 November 1966 (from UK)
Belarus 25 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Belize 21 September 1981 (from UK)
Benin 1 August 1960 (from France)
Bosnia and Herzegovina 1 March 1992 (from Yugoslavia)
Botswana 30 September 1966 (from UK)
Brunei 1 January 1984 (from UK)
Burkina Faso 5 August 1960 (from France)
Cameroon 1 January 1960 (from France)
Cape Verde 5 July 1975 (from Portugal)
Central African Republic 13 August 1960 (from France)
Chad 11 August 1960 (from France)
Comoros 6 July 1975 (from France)
Congo, Democratic Republic of the 30 June 1960 (from Belgium)
Congo, Republic of the 15 August 1960 (from France)
Cote d’Ivoire 7 August (1960) (from France)
Croatia 25 June 1991 (from Yugoslavia)
Cyprus 16 August 1960 (from UK
Djibouti 27 June 1977 (from France)
Dominica 3 November 1978 (from UK)
East Timor 20 May 2002 (from Indonesia)
Equatorial Guinea 12 October 1968 (from Spain)
Eritrea 24 May 1993 (from Ethiopia)
Estonia 6 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Fiji 10 October 1970 (from UK)
Gabon 17 August 1960 (from France)
Gambia, The 18 February 1965 (from UK)
Georgia 9 April 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Grenada 7 February 1974 (from UK)
Guyana 26 May 1966 (from UK)
Jamaica 6 August 1962 (from UK)
Kazakhstan 16 December 1991 (from the Soviet Union)
Kenya 12 December 1963 (from UK)
Kiribati 12 July 1979 (from UK)
Kuwait 19 June 1961 (from UK)
Kyrgyzstan 31 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Latvia 18 November 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Lesotho 4 October 1966 (from UK)
Lithuania 11 March 1990 (independence declared from Soviet Union)
Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of 17 September 1991 (from Yugoslavia)
Madagascar 26 June 1960 (from France)
Malawi 6 July 1964 (from UK)
Maldives 26 July 1965 (from UK)
Mali 22 September 1960 (from France)
Malta 21 September 1964 (from UK)
Mauritania 28 November 1960 (from France)
Mauritius 12 March 1968 (from UK)
Moldova 27 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Mozambique 25 June 1975 (from Portugal)
Nigeria 1 October 1960 (from UK)
Qatar 3 September 1971 (from UK)
Russia 24 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Saint Kitts and Nevis 19 September 1983 (from UK)
Saint Lucia 22 February 1979 (from UK)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 27 October 1979 (from UK)
Sao Tome 12 July 1975 (from Portugal)
Serbia May 2006 ( independence from Yugoslavia)
Seychelles 29 June 1976 (from UK)
Sierra Leone 27 April 1961 (from UK)
Singapore 9 August 1965 (from Malaysia)
Slovakia 1 January 1993 (Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia)
Slovenia 25 June 1991 (from Yugoslavia)
Solomon Islands 7 July 1978 (from UK)
Somalia 1 July 1960 ( from the UK and Italia)
Suriname 25 November 1975 (from Netherlands)
Swaziland 6 September 1968 (from UK)
Tajikistan 9 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Trinidad and Tobago 31 August 1962 (from UK)
Turkmenistan 27 October 1991 (from the Soviet Union)
Tuvalu 1 October 1978 (from UK)
Uganda 9 October 1962 (from UK)
Ukraine 24 August 1991 (from Soviet Union)
United Arab Emirates 2 December 1971 (from UK)
Uzbekistan 1 September 1991 (from Soviet Union)
Vanuatu 30 July 1980 (from France and UK)
Zambia 24 October 1964 (from UK)
Zimbabwe 18 April 1980 (from UK)
the next election on kalon tripa very importent for tibet,in my own view tibetan should elect candidate who strong support independence for tibet,like kalsang phuntsok strong support independence tibet,not like lobsang sangay or tenzin tethong this in my own view do nothing for tibet issue,and this two famous candidates will continue the current policy of tibetan government in exile,but the question why tibetan youth congress not put there candidate for kalon tripa? this is strange becouse tibetan youth congress biggest tibetan organization
I like to play advance-level Spider Solitaire and I rarely win. But one day out of desperation for constant loosing of the game, I clicked undo button whenever I make wrong move. In this way I won several times.
It gives me one lesson. The seemingly wrong moves are sometime what it needs to be in that way. It serves bigger purposes.
Whether Kalsang Phuntstok Gudrukpa believes in Rangzen or not is another matter. What he lacks for the candidacy of Kalon Tripa is his imcompetence of holding office effectively. He sowed rivalry in his own office when he was the president of TYC. He was supposed to lead the people, not divide them apart including his own organisation. Can we trust such people?
Not for a while.
t gapshi n k phuntsok,
hav u watched/listened to samdong’s speech in ny last may? if not, pliz do so on cd. he puts forward around 8 ‘reasons’ why tgie embraces middle way? let’s attack it like the way paine attacked burke on his delicate social fabric crap.
It wouldn’t matter even if he put up 50 ways to leave a lover because ultimately it is not the Tibetan approach that is of the paramount interest here, but that of the Chinese govt. This govt. has repeatedly and unequivocally shown through the 50 years of their oppression and their continued paranoid and shortsighted approach, that they do not seek to resolve the Tibet issue. They have shown again and again that it cannot be trusted all the way from the 17 points agreements, to the foul smelly mouth of Mao and the viper tongue of Choi En Lai, all the way to the 8 fruitless talks which was based on yet another toothless-cannot-be-traced-veiled assurance. Until we realize that the present govt. is out to destroy us and wipe us off the map and from the genepool, the rest is, as they say, moot. The same can be said about the Kalon Tripa election but at least here we can say there are some benefits such as getting people aware of the ‘democratic’ process (perhaps vote, maybe?) and at least getting the candidates to answer questions in a public forum (campaign) and Tibetan people to get used to the process of campaigning. Yeah, I am grasping at straws here.
p.s: Was rinpoche displaying his prescience to my 7 deadly misrepresentations article and already wrote 8 benefits of Middle-way before it happened? Such mental prowess cannot be taken lightly.
rangzen heros,
how about 3 page single space 11 size article each by lejotsang n us 3 attacking it point by point? atleast 4 compact articles on all tibsites. not many read long ones. if any one wants the cd giv me ur physical address. will try to upload it on youtube samdong1, samdong2 etc.
Respected Jamyang Norbu la,
Thanks for everything you have done for Tibet and it’s people. And specially for your articles related to Tibet issue.
I want to request you to write about forth coming Kalon Kripa and it’s vote.
Many people want to know about your views.
Thanks.
Jamyang Norbu Lak,
We want to know who is your choice for Kalon Tripa? Or you don’t have anyone yet?
It seems in the ongoing race for the post of Kalon Tripa election, Lobsang Sengay may be emerging as the only one who has the most likelihood of being elected. My opinion of him is “better than nothing”. Of course no self respecting Tibetan can say that with any pride. If Dr. Lobsang wants to win my vote he will have to convince me that he will devote his tenure as Kalon towards earning legitimate international recognition for the Office of Kalon Tripa (being democratically elected) as the true representative of the Tibetans both inside and around the world. He will also have to show leadership by actively participating in demonstration and campaigns against the atrocities the Chinese government has committed and will commit inside Tibet. I guess what I am hoping for is not only some heat but also some fire. Please note I am not talking violence but active SatyaGraha (please not “truth insistence” as our incumbent kalon would interpret the word, but a real campaign for justice).
since china occupy Tibet, do u think who works harder………chinese or tibetan
@can u think how much chinese work hard to develop tibet like train, airport, highway, infrastucture etc……..
@can u think how much Tibetan work for their country while in exile like building school and fancy monastery in other nation land , running after visa, playing dirty stupid games in khasag etc……………. everyone think well and wide …………then reply me thanks from yeti…..
Nazis win hands down. They worked much harder and build nice camps for the jews and they made wonderful progress in the field of medicine and weight loss program. But Chinese introduced dancing on the dead relatives which was a big hit before being shot too. Tough call, I must say.
rough translation of samdong lama’s speech in ny last may.
Today’s main topic is the policy of middle way. This policy has been adopted since 1974. HH mentioned this just now. The basis for this policy is universal responsibility. Any worldly issues can only be settled only through dialogue and mutual benefits n not through conflict confrontation. Past 20th century was a period of war. This century has to be a period of dialogue. Therefore to solve Tibet issue if we don’t apply dialogue and mutual benefit, there will be no result. Since it’s for mutual benefit it has to be achieved through dialogue and understanding. According to Buddhist doctrine of inter-dependence, nonviolence is very important practice for mutual benefit. This is how the birth of middle way policy took place. Middle way is the way between two extremes. Restoration of Independence or total separation from china is one extreme. And the present no freedom inside Tibet is another extreme. The way between these two extremes is called middle way policy. To solve Tibet issue, 1. The demands in this policy are the total application of minority autonomy rights as enshrined in the Chinese constitution. 2. All Tibetans under one administration. 3. And nonviolence as means to achieve these. These three are the core essence of middle way. These three can be called branches or means, most important, to achieve middle way. When trying to solve Tibet issue with middle way policy there is no way Tibet’s past can be restored through political historical justification. These are the characteristics of middle policy.
THE MANY REASONS for adopting this middle way policy by exile govt led by HH are 1. Earlier there was this nation-state concept/ideology/policy adopted by many countries in the world. This concept today is considered outdated. European Union has many nations that are giving up the benefits of independence by making efforts to merge in to one large administration/union. This is a century of inter-dependence n not total individual dependence. That’s why we have to think in a way to conform to this.
2. Besides Tibet is a land locked country. That’s why without depending on our powerful neighbors there are no way we can achieve economic success and modernization. That’s why it’s important to continue to remain a part of china. There will be many economic benefits for Tibetans for being with the china.
3. More important than this is today world there is no way out without a pragmatic policy based on present reality. Without pragmatism, there is no way out. At this moment there is no policy available besides middle way. This is a reality.
4. Not only this, to solve Tibet issue we have to depend on international community, we can’t do it on our own. While depending on international community we have to win their support and help.
5. Besides until Tibet’s truth prevails and if exile administration led by HH fails to continue to exist then it’s not right. To help it stay we have to have a pragmatic policy. Without this, it will be very difficult.
4. Much more important than this is Tibet’s population which is around 6 million. According to Chinese census in 2000 Tibet’s population is 5 point something million. For centuries majority of Tibet’s population lived outside the range/jurisdiction of Tibetan govt. in 1951 gaden phodrang’s control existed over present Tibet autonomous region, more or less. If we try to restore Tibet independence based on history then this is all we can lay claim on. Less than half of Tibet’s population lives in tar. More than half remain outside tar. To choose autonomy for all Tibetans under one administration is far better than to restore independence to a part of Tibet land and to a section of whole Tibet population.
5. Besides today in many countries autonomy has been granted based on race, culture, language and this experiment is proving successful. We find it very meaningful.
6. Not only that inside Tibet, Tibetan people, culture, environment is facing extinction day by day. And to save these, if we don’t adopt middle way, there being no other alternative, with these reasons, middle way policy has been adopted. These are the reasons I want to give in brief.
will translate his attack on rangzen and democracy activists tomorrow
Elect me just for one term..i will have these done.
1. Change the name of “Special envoy of HH” to ” Special Envoy of TIbetan people”. CCP has always been considering the effort of HH as a personal thing. This name change is a significant first step to reinforce that HH stands for Tib.people.
2. Let all the office of tibet and TGIE department not use the name of HH in their dealing with outsider & in letterhead. We are too much dependant on HH that we all will stay in “nyalwa thikna” for 100 life times. We are over 50 years old and we should be able to stand up and not hide behind HH.
3. Set 55 as retirement age for chitue and kalon.’Old is gold” is no longer true..’Old are rusted”. Let there be young,educated,risk taking,bit of unpredictability in the environment.
4. In the forth year,..”All Tib.People outside Tibet-Pack your bag and don’t forget your denture we are going home to Fatherland.
Where is Gandhian philosophy in this talk. He was really out of touch with his utopian ideology. Juju has to bear with me for this bellyaching.
“Besides Tibet is a land locked country. That’s why without depending on our powerful neighbors there are no way we can achieve economic success and modernization”..what a double standard, in his recent speech at Bylacuppe, he was lamenting about the deterioration of human values and ecological equilibrium brought about by modernization. He was even cussing those few Tibetans who went abroad in persuit of economic success of being, greedy, lazy and morally bankrupt. He was even encouraging Tibetans to be complacent. Till the land and fill the belly. Forget about clothes when winter breeze chills your bone. And don’t get thrilled if you can’t afford treating your bed-riiden grandpa at home.
But as far as China is concerned, his ideology shows a great deal of flexibility…china will bring economic success so it is Ok if they grab the land,torture the monks and rape the nuns.
“to solve Tibet issue we have to depend on international community, we can’t do it on our own”….how contradictory this was to his previous speeches where he mentioned that we have nothing to benefit from the west. Given the fact that our immediate neighbours, SAARC countries, are riddled with war,poverty internal dispute and other innumerable issues, I believe by “international Community”, he meant Western Countries.
“Besides until Tibet’s truth prevails and if exile administration led by HH fails to continue to exist then it’s not right. To help it stay we have to have a pragmatic policy”…”Pragmatic policy” he is cleverly trying to give a new nomenclature to “Middle way policy”…by “middle way” term, we can atleast assume that there are other ways possible. It is inspirational and is opening up options for further scrutiny. Middle way policy is widely accepted as a fulcrum giving a leverage to the motion of Tibet issue.. But this so called “Pragmatic policy” seems to be a mean to sustain exile administration and perhaps his position. But when race, culture and language started to ring something in his ears, he chose to go back to using “Middle way policy” term..what the heck he is talking about. I don’t really think he puts 100 percent of himself while delivering speeches. Isn’t he under the influence? The saddest part is that we kept on listening to his blabber for 10 long years without understanding a bit.
.
You all are a bunch of unrealistic political macho men!
tenzin dolma, i luv u…
thnurbu
i read ur articles and really impress with your idea…u r absoulty right and i request other to read his artcle not these other long long lecture …….its not time to give long lecture like in monastery or school its time to talk less and act more………………………….(*.*)
Will you still love me if I am Tenzin Dhonden?
following is samdong’s attack on tibetan democracy and rangzen activists in his speech in new york last may.
“But now a days, there are many tibetans who criticize HH on the failure of achieving independence, then there are those who with the idea of modern democracy, criticizing HH and are willing to disregard HH if democracy can be achieved. Then there are those who criticize HH based on a few events of his. ALL THESE PEOPLE are little MORE DANGEROUS than the Chinese communist party and dhogyal worshippers.”
Samdhong Rinpoche acutally said independence activists, by criticising middle way policy, are responsible for undermining the loyalty and faith of the Tibetan people toward the Dalai Lama. I was at the hall where he delivered his infamous speech.
Since most of you are against Samdhong Rinpoche and taken it too much personal, I cannot trust your translation. This translation may be done with total personal interpretations.
And many of you are lacking required standard of Tibetan language which is crucial in understanding political statements and speeches.
There is no base for arguing what Samdhong Rinpoche said in the US unless complete speeches in original form is presented here.
Oh yes! What if hostile elements are infiltrated in the TYC body? It seems something went terribly wrong since the Great Movement! Hope you all notice those ugly episodes.
T.D, don’t wait for us to spoon feed your sorry ass. Go and do your own research and then come back with the full text. Don’t be a lazy.
sorry ass? Is this your choice of words? Better not say you are a Tibetan.
I am waiting for original speech you claimed to have. I want to see only that!
td, u can get the vcds at jackson heights basement store. 3 vcds on speech by hh, samdong, penpa. 3 more vcds on question and answer session. ask ur friend to send them to u if u dont live in new york. i know u n u keep defending this samdong simply becoz 2 of you belong to jupa/kongtserawa! phayul chikpa special love! love him but not to the point where even his neurotic comments become your daily prayers! that’s messed up. u r educated n should know better.
oh I am Tibetan alright. I am just annoyed that you are not willing to do the proper research yourself and wait for people to do it for you. Mila already did his translation. If you are not happy with it, then the onus is on you to provide the necessary refutation, meaning, you go around looking for that particular speech and listening to it with your acute Tibetanness not withstanding, which I am led to understand makes one see deeper meaning in his sentences.
if you provide your side = not sorry ass
deal?
VERBATUM TRANSLATION of samdong’s talk.
TD, U R WELCOME TO PRODUCE A BETTER TRANSLATION.
One great fear that comes to our mind is the concern that Tibetan faith and loyalty/allegiance toward HH is diminishing each year. For example, the case of dhogyal worshippers, having no depth and base, having been through on the wrong path under the misguidance of several individuals. There are many among dhogyal worshippers who criticize HH but we are not really surprised. We are not worried about it.
But these days, there are many who criticize HH on the failure of achieving independence, then there are those who with idea of modern democracy criticize HH and are willing to disregard HH if democracy can be achieved. Then those who criticize HH based on a few events of his life, are all little MORE DANGEROUS than the Chinese communist regime and dhogyal worshippers.
Recently in india, a Tibetan newspaper asked people which of the two, HH and democracy, is more important. The fact that we can talk about democracy in exile and that democracy experts can speak extensively is all due to the kindness of HH and this they have forgotten. Without a great leader like HH , can we, a handful of Tibetans, exist? Could our democracy have matured to this point? This is what we have to ponder over. Collecting opinion poll on whether HH is more important or democracy, these people regard HH as anti democracy or one in conflict with democracy. In democratic society, with an understanding on the subject and with reasons, one can examine the speech of HH, it is not that one can not DISAGREE with HH. Buddha said “don’t believe it because I have said it. Examine what I say”. HH says the same thing. But when you examine tibet’s unique leaders who have come about due to our collective karma and prayers and If we CRITICIZE or insult the person of HH then it will be very harmful to our cause. Tibetan people need to think over this seriously including HH’s great contributions and events and his future course for 6 million Tibetans , more important than this is the middle way policy. these are the signs of fortunate period. It’s important we realize this.
I don’t think HHDL cares personally if this or that person disagrees with him. But what is a problem is people spending time arguing about “who trusts” and “who doesn’t trust” this or that person. Instead of discussing strategies, the conversation dissolves into arguments about who trusts whom.
It’s like any team or company: the fastest progress down a particular path is made when you trust the leader, and your teammates. If trust breaks down, it’s not only between leader and team members, but more importantly between team members that the trust fails. That’s where the time-consuming arguments kick in and sabotage progress.
So the danger isn’t in criticizing HHDL (imho); it’s in the sabotaging of forward progress that results when people stop moving and start arguing.
The danger is then that, even if Middle Way is considered weak, that replacing Middle Way with argument-filled nothingness could be even worse.
Nothingness could mean eventual invisibility; the Uygurs are certainly less visible than Tibetans. Who is raising Uygur issues in US congress? If nothing else (and of course we know it’s much more than this), HHDL’s efforts have kept Tibet in the headlines from 1959 to 2010. It seems to me that supporting HHDL heartily, while still discussing and enacting multiple possible strategies, is wise politically and realistically. One can support ones parents, while still disagreeing with some of their strategies.
If a new strategy evolves that includes Tibet-wide protests (already happening), and those protests are peaceful, even though that fosters disputes with the CCP, would HHDL really argue against it? He hasn’t been against the protests so far, right? Even though technically some people interpret (or misinterpret) Middle Way to = “sitting still an doing nothing.” It’s our own lack of action that results in nothing most of the time, not Middle Way.
How flexible is Middle Way? Middle Way implies the Chinese side will give, too; if the Chinese side doesn’t give, does Middle Way really say that no more pressure can be applied, in that case? I don’t think so.
No one has to follow HHDL out of blind devotion or anything like that, but if one has a world-acknowledged leader, that is very, very powerful and hard to replace. Instead of ditching that leader, it could be better strategically to exploit the current situation much more powerfully. Take Middle Way to much stronger conclusions. I think every time a peaceful protest takes place in Tibet now, that’s actually happening.
A question: is it possible for Middle Way to strengthen itself? Given that real autonomy is a condition of Middle Way, if real autonomy is not being achieved, can Middle Way adopt stronger tactics to achieve it?
Last-minute thought: What about a “Declaration of Autonomy?”
You are asking me to produce translation. But what I want here is original speech! ORIGINAL SPEECH.
Read again my comment first.
“Since most of you are against Samdhong Rinpoche and taken it too much personal, I cannot trust your translation. This translation may be done with total personal interpretations.
And many of you are lacking required standard of Tibetan language which is crucial in understanding political statements and speeches.
There is no base for arguing what Samdhong Rinpoche said in the US unless complete speeches in original form is presented here.”
When you want to criticize other, you should be a good listeners.
LISTEN FIRST WHEN YOU ARE IN ARGUMENT.
THINK FIRST WHEN YOU ARE IN ACTION.
These two lines are not running in your vein. Therefore you are dangerous to your own race! Action men!
TD,
Don’t you think you are assuming much more than what you are allowed. I don’t ask for your credentials when you claim superiority over us on your knowledge of Tibetan language. But how can you assume we cannot understand what is being said verbally?
Tread carefully my friend, for you may slip and fall.
Here is a project for you; get the CD, transcribe it in Tibetan and then post it. See if the meaning changes when you write it down. Be warned though, you may be disappointed.
T.D, you are still not getting it. Sure, I might have a listening problem but you have a logic problem, which I dare say is even worse. If you want to refute somebody’s translation, then YOU have to do your own research, put the beer down, get up from the comfy sofa and finally walk a little bit. The fresh air might do you good too. Hell, I might be unintentionally saving you from a future heartattack. But there is no need to thank me as I will do this for any Tibetan.
Sheila #91,
In your team management analogy, are teammates supposed to back and trust the leadership when the latter decides to liquidate the company and turn a deaf ear to employees’ claims? During WWII, should the French people have trusted Marshall Pétain and discontinued “the sabotaging of forward progress” with the Nazi occupants, or where they right to resist and fight fascism?
Tenpa D Gashi
No one can rule out the possiblity of two version of original speeches where slight, but vital, changes made with or without intention.
So I want your version of original speech!
K.P
In a movie featured Steven Seagal, the villain said “assumption is the mother of all fuckers.”
How true in our case also!
Verbal speech is more difficult to understand than written one. And it causes more controvercies also. Because people have difficulties in understanding verbal speech.
And language is consist of not only reading and writting, but also listening and speaking.
S. Rinpoche gave you a seat at Varanasi for traditional studies, a job in cta, his nephew and a fulbright scholarship in US. What more do you want from him? You sure don’t want him to give you a skirt-up lap dance! Enough of this bs.
T.D.
Here is my take on the speech by Rinpoche la.
Rinpochela should not be concerned about Tibetan people’s faith and loyalty to HH. This faith and loyalty is between tibetan people and HH.
Rinpochela is elected as a prime minister and he should concentrate more on the political issues surrounding our cause and refrain from Lalu and yadav’s tactic.
Shiela,
The Middle Way Approach already declares Autonomy. Only thing that is needed to be worked out is some administrative issues with the Central Government. The problem is that the Central Government is showing the middle finger to those trying to make an appointment to discuss these issues.
TD,
Sorry, can you rephrase what you wrote? Or am I suppose to assume some meaning in it?
Samdhong Rinpoche:
“I am a religious person and thereby I see the world on three different planes of existence; within, without, and within-within. Tibet exist on the without and thereby is not really a big issue for me. I could go as far as saying it is not an issue at all. All we have to do to think broadly and about the whole six realms and then only you will understand my mind, my quest, my vision for the freedom of all living beings. The culture of Tibet is Buddhism and before that we were just barbarians and as long as we preserve Buddhism, then the Land of Shambhala will always be open to us. Those who go against this is against Shambhala and if you are against Shambhala, then you are against humanity and that is even worse than the Chinese, who are but innocent naughty kids, who needs to be forgiven for their transgressions. I plan to retire to the cave after my PM term expires and dedicate the rest of my life to the meditation and contemplation as I should have done 50 years ago. But what do they say again, better late than never, right?
P.S: I like rainbow sherbet. That is ice cream flavor if you must know. Sent me some.”
Ok, that is my interpretation. Let me know if you heard differently.
Labelling me as S.Rinpoche’s relative is total non-sense. It is a deliberate act of meandering the direction of present argument.
K.P
There might be two slightly different transcripted speeches ascribed to S.Rinpoche. No can rule out that possiblity so far. So produce your own copy. It is neccessary.
Ten Norbu
You are accusing S. Rinpoche of playing dirty politics without appropriate reasons.
Having loyalty for H.H is completely acceptable. Because the present policy of our government is actually initiated by H.H himself. Moreover, there is no clash of interest in it. More than 60 percent of Tibetan people outside Tibet choose the Middle Path. So what is wrong with having loyalty for H.H. That does not imply S.Rinpoche has no feeling for the cause of Tibetan poeple.
TD:
I am not 10 Norbu…I am THENORBU.
HH is everything for Tibetan people. There is no need to mention on this relationship.
I am not accusing Rinpochela…just criticizing for having HH in his speech to criticize those who think differently or challenge TGiE policies or not in the queue after him.
I will not call it”initiated by HH”. I would refer to it as “A gift from HH”.
If you remove HH from that speech……and add more energy/force and presence of PM position it would be nice. Otherwise, there is no difference between PM speech and Camp one jagpon’s speech.
Tenpa Dhargyal Gashi #103,
When did Samdhong said that? Also during the NY talk? If not, would you be kind enough to provide me with the source?
hey Christopher, that particular story was totallly and unabashedly fabricated by me so that someone with a heavy tush will finally get up and defend SR instead of waiting to be spoon-fed his own sources. Sorry to have misled you though. 🙂
Tenpa’la,
Thanks for your reply. Frankly, nothing surprise me anymore in Tibetan politics and Samdhong could well have said that… As for people like TD waiting for sources, they won’t have to wait long; Mila Rangzen sent me the video of Samdhong’s speech and the relevant extract was just uploaded on YouTube one hour ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no9YGo_nITI.
Thanks to Mila Rangzen for his efforts and for exposing such ignominious statement!
It’s important we crtique the whole nine yard of middle way policy, point by point, piece by piece from introduction to conclusion. Not in a broad way. Their speech and the middle way bible on the dalai lama website. Who can do it best? obviously, Jamyang Norbu! Please get out of the basement and usher a new era of steel-hearted rangzen warriors!
besides rangzen international conference, next time a kalachakra gets held in india, let’s use it to the full. atleast 100, 000 tibetans will come. we lost a great opportunity at amravati 2006.
rangzen alliance!
tibetan national rangzen party!
Jamyang, do you have a response to the comments made on your amazon review of Grunfeld’s “The Making of Modern Tibet”?
Here: http://www.amazon.com/review/R35BOXT68TKDAM/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt/182-5941072-1802069?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1563247143&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful
“Jamyang Norbu, too bad no credible historian including academics from the National Geographic agrees with your opinion. Who is the real person that is spreading propaganda and lies? The 90% of the Tibetans many decades ago who were tortured, beaten, barred from education, and treated like animals were only that way thanks to your aristocratic ancestors. The children of the Tibetan serfs that were once dehumanized by you aristocrats are now enjoying a life where they receive free secular education, running water, electricity, affirmative action to the best universities, and many other benefits that the Han Chinese can only dream of.
Speaking of propaganda, when did this genocide that you speak of occur? 1.2 million people murdered? The entire population of Tibet at that time was no more than 1.3 million people. Such a claim is completely ludicrous. If you love the Dalai Lama so much, I would suggest you leave the Western world and go be his slave in the exiled “government” of India.
I also challenge your assertion of Chinese occupation in Tibet. This claim is completely unfounded and ludicrous and is only supported by the Dalai Lama, his fanatic followers, and ignorant hippies in the West. No country or government in this entire world agrees with your ridiculous claim. Face the truth, your Dalai Lama no longer is the god king ruler that you wish him to be and you aristocrats will never again enslave humanity for your own selfish gains ever again.”
and
“Jamyang Norbu’s pathetic review illustrates his desperate attempts at avoiding those pesky facts and resorting to emotional screed. No where does he give a single example of where Grunfeld has erred and where the countervailing evidence is to be found. Norbu, on the other hand, has continued to rely on the notorious hoax allegations spread by the Tibetan Government in Exile of the genocide and the 1.2 million Tibetans killed figure. Not once has this figure or the genocide accusations ever been shown a shred of evidence. This like the rest of his hate-filled writings/childish rants, are nothing but sad attempts to discredit those who really do know a thing or two about Tibet but who happen to disagree with the Tibetan Government in Exile’s standard line, something he swallows uncritically and disseminates. “
Alex, that is standard fenqing (lit “angry youth”) Chinese ultra-nationalist drivel. Do you think it warrants a specific response from JN?
Let’s take just the genocide issue. The number of Tibetans living in Chinese occupied Tibet is between 5 million and 6 million. The part the Chinese call the “Tibetan Autonomous Region” contains only a minority of the Tibetan population. The Tibetan genocide in the 1950s and 1960s was most severe in Eastern Tibet (Kham and Amdo).
Disputing the scale of the Tibetan genocide reminds me a lot of “revisionist history” of the holocaust. The 1.2 Million figure is a “point estimate” which is subject to uncertainty. However, what remains certain is that huge numbers of Tibetans died in the earlier years of the Chinese occupation and as a consequence of the occupation.
Alex, I commented on that site and got a delicious reply back from the moron. I think his reply pretty much said all we have to say about that topic.
I agree. The guy is a Moron or an As..hole.
How could he post someone else comment in his defense and that too by a non-tibetan, as if non-tibetan could justify what is good and bad for Tibetan.
And he was asking for evidence when he knew that most are destroyed by their demonic act and produced fabricated evidence similar to the designer’s products exported to the outside world by them.
Thennorbu # 105:
“If you remove HH from that speech……and add more energy/force and presence of PM position it would be nice. Otherwise, there is no difference between PM speech and Camp one jagpon’s speech.”
You hit the hammer on the nail. To me all speeches delivered by Tibetan leaders sound the same as camp gyakpon speech. All repetitions, devoid of substance and utterly lacking in genuine ideas. Every gathering be it political or not almost always turns into a prayer session.
Everybody, I am sure you all have been following the media frenzy over the story of this crazy pastor down in Florida threatening to burn Quran on 9/11 anniversary. I am thinking of a campaign to burn Mao’s Red Book (Can anyone tell me where I can find one?) on March 10, 2011, along with Grunfeld’s book.
hello KP
A cursory look at Amazon yields the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Quotations-Chairman-Mao-Tse-Tung/dp/083512388X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284195426&sr=8-1
however, a Chinese edition is much rarer, and pricier.
Personally, I think it would be much more appropriate to burn a text in the field of The Three Represent, but I imagine that such works are not widely available in the US.
Mao’s Red Guards spent a lot of time burning books. Do we want to anything that makes us look like them?
tashi delek jamyang laa
i ‘m realy impressed on your every single word
last wednesday ,i saw u live television through VOA,,i was very happy on that topic of CIA ,tibetan training camp,COLORADO,,we could seen all during that day with my ama laa,,even ,,we are confused one we wants to know from you jamyang laa, plz, can u find for us,,my father was traned by cia ,,till we can’t probe it ,,he was in colorado or not,,,,my father name is,,baba lobsang choemphel,,if u can find it we will proud it,,,well my father was passeway when i was 14,,,,lastly,,,,,,if i mistake in an my writing mail,,plz, forgive me,,,thukjee chay,,see you in tibet!!
Cristophe–forward progress or momentum or clout–of course the issue remains “to what goal” or “to what end.” I do have genuine curiosity as to whether Middle Way really forbids a lot of the things we think it forbids, or if it’s as weak as we think it is. But beyond that, I simply meant that once-in-a-lifetime unity behind a strong leader–that can be a hard or impossible thing to replace, and people can panic when they think see that unity falling apart. It can even drive them to say drastic things.
But yes, none of this means that keeping the unity, down what may be a dead-end path, is the only right choice.
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