SELF-IMMOLATION AND BUDDHISM

 

The Yiddish word “chutzpah”, pronounced “huspa”, has the exact same meaning as the Tibetan word “hamba”, and even shares a passing tonal quality to it. Leo Rosten, the humorist, defined chutzpah as “that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan.”

Dai Qingli, an official of the Chinese Embassy in Britain brilliantly demonstrated that quality in a letter to the Guardian (25 Nov. 2011) titled “Tibetan Deaths violate Buddhism”. Dai wrote, “The self-immolations of Tibetan monks and nuns were truly tragic. They were also a fatal violation of the spirit of peace and tolerance that defines Tibetan Buddhism. And, as such, these acts have met anger and disapproval from the local people and the religious community.”

Bhuchung K.Tsering of the International Campaign for Tibet (ICT) expressed himself in a similar manner in his article “This Chinese is Right About Tibetan Self-Immolation!”

“Yesterday, i.e. December 1, 2011, I was reading an article in People’s Daily by  “renowned Tibetologist” Li Decheng concerning self-immolations by Tibetans in Tibet in which he says these actions are against “core Buddhist code of ethics.” He further says, “In Buddhism, particularly Tibetan Buddhism, scripture has never encouraged killings and suicide, nor has Buddhist dogma incited others to carry out killings or commit suicide.” I have no hesitation in saying I agree with him here.’

Bhuchung went on to request the Chinese that they should pay attention to the self-immolations “as it is an important social issue for China and its future.”  Bhuchung also attempts to explain why Tibetans were – and I use his exact word – “indulging” in this behavior. Bhuchung and his colleagues at ICT might not approve of the self-immolations but they should realize that the monks and nuns were hardly “indulging” themselves in any way.

The Dalai Lama chose his words more carefully. In his statement to UPI on Nov 21 he said he didn’t encourage self-immolation by monks and nuns protesting China’s control over Tibet and questioned the usefulness of the acts as a protest tool. He did acknowledge that the monks and nuns had courage, but he gave the impression that it wasn’t a Buddhist thing to do.

So is self-immolation against Buddhist teachings or not?

In 1963, Thich Quang Duc, a Vietnamese monk set fire to himself at a busy Saigon intersection. The famous Pulitzer Prize winning photograph by Malcolm Browne of the burning monk sitting serenely in the lotus position surrounded by flames, became a worldwide sensation and contributed to fall of the Diem regime. At the time Beijing openly praised the action of the Vietnamese monk and distributed millions of copies of the photo (pirated of course) throughout Asia and Africa as evidence of “US imperialism”. Other Vietnamese monks and a nun subsequently set fire to themselves to protest the war.

Self-immolation appear to be an unusual though accepted Buddhist traditio in China and parts of South East Asia. There are numerous cases in Chinese history, especially during the Qing period, of such acts being performed as political protest (see  Burning for the Buddha: Self-immolation in Chinese Buddhism by James A. Benn). In 1948 in the city of Harbin a monk seated himself in the lotus position on a pile of sawdust and soybean oil and set fire to himself in protest against the treatment of Buddhism by Mao Zedong’s Communists.

The main inspiration for the practice appears to be based on a teaching in The Lotus Sutra (Tib. dam chos pad-ma dkar po’i mdo). One chapter of this sutra recounts the life story of the Bodhisattva Medicine King who demonstrated his insight into the selfless nature of his body by ritualistically setting his body aflame, spreading the “Light of the Dharma” for twelve hundred years.

But I think that the spiritual motivation for the sacrifice of our young monks and nuns in Tibet might have come from another direction. Forty-five kilometers south-east of Katmandu is one of the most popular pilgrimage sites for Tibetans visiting Nepal. The hill of Namo Buddha (or Tagmo Lujin in Tibetan) is – the Golden Light Sutra (phags pa gser ‘od dam pa’i mdo) tells us – the very place where the Buddha (in a previous incarnation) gave up his body to feed a starving tigress and her four cubs. This is a popular Jataka story with all Tibetans and is often brought up in conversations whenever an example of self-sacrifice or selfless conduct is required.  There are other such Jataka or Avadana stories of the Buddha giving up his life for others, a well known one from the mahakapi jataka being the tale of the Great Monkey King who died saving the lives of his “80,000” monkey subjects.

The courageous action of the thirteen self-immolators in Tibet must be seen in this specific doctrinal light. I emphatically disagree with the opinion some people are circulating that the monks and nuns burnt themselves in despair because they were not allowed to practice their religion. If that were the main concern of these monks and nuns then the logical course of action for them to take would have been to escape to India, as many others had done so before. Kirti monastery, where most of the young self-immolators had studied, even has a large branch at Dharamshala where they would have been welcome.

Hence we must see the self-immolations in Tibet as action taken for the welfare of others, for the freedom of the Tibetan people and the independence of Tibet (as some of the self-immolators expressly stated). Even the call by most of the self-immolators for the return of the Dalai Lama to Tibet must be interpreted as a call for the restoration of an independent Tibet, as the Dalai Lama is regarded as the legitimate sovereign ruler of independent Tibet, and should not merely be interpreted as a plea for the return of a personal spiritual leader, as those attempting to de-politicize the events have been claiming.

The deed of the thirteen self-immolators is not only Buddhist in an unquestionably absolute sense, but furthermore comes from within a heroic and action-oriented tradition of Buddhism. Some scholars have viewed this approach as truer to the original teachings of the historical Buddha, in contrast to the quietist, passive, even escapist perception of Buddhism which has gained more widespread acceptance, especially in the West.

The historical Buddha was a member of the warrior class, a Kshatriya. Though he accepted all classes and castes into the sangha he was given to addressing his followers thus “We are Kshatriya, all”. He did this, of course, not to highlight his own caste, but probably to lay emphasis on the qualities of commitment and courage that he required of his disciples. The sutra’s tell us that Siddhartha was a tall man of powerful build, trained in the martial arts, in which he excelled, even defeating other Shakya warriors to prove his worth for the hand of the princess Yashodhara. The warrior’s fearlessness and commitment were evident in his first attempt to achieve enlightenment, and which is powerfully represented in the Gandhara image of the Buddha, after six years of extreme self-mortification had seen his body reduced to skin and bone.

Even after he realized that his first attempt was a failure his warrior’s commitment and courage were never in doubt. The Buddha’s next method, the “Middle Way” was not an excuse for inaction, weakness or impotence. When Siddhartha finally sat under the Bodhi tree he fixed his resolve on the goal of enlightenment with an unshakable resolution. A beautiful and dramatic verse is attributed to him by some early compilers of the sutras. “Let blood dry up, let flesh wither away, but I shall not stir from this spot till Enlightenment be attained.”

A few of the titles by which Siddhartha was known after his enlightenment appear to acknowledge this heroic quality, as in “jina” or “conqueror” and “mahavira” or “great hero (also the title of the founder of Jainism).

The Bodhisattva as hero is delineated clearly in a passage from the Prajnaparimita Sutra where he is said to fearlessly lead all sentient beings out of the deep forests of samsara, fighting of attacks from “inimical forces”. At the end of this passage he asks his disciple Subhuti “If, then, more and more hostile and inimical forces should rise up against him in that forest, would this heroic man decide to abandon his family and take himself alone out of that terrible and frightening forest?” and Subhuti of course replies, “No, O Lord”.

The historical Buddha himself, when stalked by the bandit and murderer Angulimala, chose not to flee or leave the problems to others. Instead he confronted and subdued the killer through what has traditionally been regarded as magical power. No matter how swiftly Angulimala ran after the casually strolling Buddha, he could not catch up with him. About a hundred years earlier the Greek philosopher Zeno posited such a situation in his “time paradox” of Achilles never being able to catch up with a tortoise. These day physicists might explain it as a “Quantum Zeno effect”, the name which E.C.G. Sudarshan and B. Misra coined to describe “the suppression of unitary time evolution caused by quantum decoherence…”

Then there is the story of how in a previous life the Buddha killed a mass-murderer on a ship to save the lives of the other travelers on board. The context in which Buddha told this avadana story to his disciples is interesting and relevant to the overall point I am trying to make. One day a disciple noticed that the Buddha had received a wound on his feet. The disciple asked how this could happen to some one who had attained nirvana. The Buddha then told his disciples the above story. The lesson being that no one can wholly escape the consequence of a violent deed even if its performance is necessary and righteous. But there is another logical corollary to the story, that if the Buddha had chosen, for reasons of cowardice or ethical fastidiousness, not to kill the murderer and not to save those many lives, he would have committed a more far more immoral and evil act.

It is this essentially non-violent yet nuanced and dynamic interpretation of Buddhist action that is completely absent from the passive, comfortable, sanitized, hands-off, and inherently self-serving interpretation of the Dharma dominating much of the contemporary Buddhist world.

A noticeable aspect of this “New Age” Buddhism is its preoccupation with money, celebrity and a kind of low-maintenance intellectualism disseminated in a plethora of unreadable self-help books with catchy Zen style titles (Watching the Watcher, Silent Mind Holy Mind, Living Through Dying and so on). Something like this is, I suppose, prevalent in institutionalized religions worldwide, and is probably a waste of time to work yourself up about it. But I think Tibetans would wholeheartedly join me in condemning Buddhist teachers charging extortionate ticket prices for their sermons, and Dharma centers discouraging, sometimes forbidding, their members from participating in political action, even for the cause of Tibetan freedom and human rights.

And how can you argue with them when even the former prime-minister of the exile government, a Tibetan lama and learned geshe has not only not participated in any Free Tibet demonstrations but has even ordered Tibetans not to demonstrate against Chinese leaders visiting the West. Yet Samdhong Rinpoche was seen on European TV, in 2006, as one of the leaders of a major demonstration against the Swiss company SYNGENTA in India, a leading agri-business company that Indian environmentalists opposed. So perhaps the spiritual lesson here is that political activism is permissible so long as it is fashionable, profitable and does not upset Beijing. The Dalai Lama has publicly joined the opposition to the proposed oil pipeline from Alberta to Texas. I am enough of an environmentalist not to take issue with the Dalai Lama’s initiative, but I wish His Holiness had been as opposed to the Beijing Olympics or China’s “population-transfer” railway line to Tibet.

Yet the most cynical thing I have seen recently, especially in relation to the self-immolations, is a fund raising letter sent out by the International Campaign for Tibet (ICT), asking people to donate money to it because “…13 Tibetans have set fire to themselves,” This from the organization that opposes the Tibetan independence struggle, and whose senior official wrote in enthusiastic support of China’s condemnation of self-immolation as being against Buddhism.

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Comments

  1. Jamyang | January 3rd, 2012 | 2:31 pm

    Jamyang Norbu Lak,

    I find myself always eagerly waiting for Jamyang lak to upload new articles, but only to get half disappointed after reading the articles. Like any other Tibetan, I wholeheartedly appreciate your sincerity and tireless devotion to the Tibetan cause, but I hope you will not bring HIs Holiness the Dalai Lama into the your conversation.
    I hope Jamyang Lak by now have realized that Rangzen is not a seeable option for us , restoring basic human rights in Tibet is more vital than Rangzen ( independence ) . Gaining Rangzen will not feed starving people in tibet, in fact i think Rangzen will bring cause nasty in in-fights in tibet and divide tibetan people.
    Last but not the least, Jamyang Lak Tibetan cause is a dead cause without Dalai Lama’s support.

  2. Norsang | January 3rd, 2012 | 3:33 pm

    Thanks! I take it centers on the question of safeguarding Buddha Dharma at prime critical time, when it’s at its brink as threats posed by outer forces (Tenda), through such means desperately needy like ordained ones permissible to take arms for the sublime cause. If not for present appeasing policy that has to distort many historical facts there is footage depicting monks taking arms to fight back PLA intrusion. If such is permissible, then why not for carrying out such peaceful protest mode for the same sublime cause.

    But for the case of personal liberation through practices–it implies there isn’t such sublime cause in hand–a Bodhisattva of not wholly tamed or eligible (Wang Ma Thob Pei Jang Chup Sempa)is earnestly recommended not to take part in Fearless giving (Me Jig Pei Jinpa)like dashing in a current to save a drowning one or rushing into an ablaze place to save others… Such desperate acts poses serious repercussion or setback in personal liberation as one isn’t qualified yet. So why not for a commoner serious practitioner. The clear line should be drawn between for the case of personal liberation and for the sublime cause–if one’s basic freedom has been snatched away through minutely stalking, menace and malice, then what counts as the top priority. How can we rebuff this core historical fact? And can we really get everything deep down, from the basic motive to the advanced acting ones, of those martyrs?

    Yes, can there be a single Tibetan who doesn’t feel such dire sense of loss and sadness for the lives of those brave Tibetans? No, I mean it. And it’s not about the case of encouraging but the question of gravity out there and those who sensed it and acted through such brave means. And yes, as each Tibetan is responsible, one should at least appreciate their bravery and remember them ever in our prayers.

  3. Kalsang Wangdu | January 3rd, 2012 | 3:34 pm

    I am in complete agreement with JN’s exposition on self-immolation and Buddhism, and how some of the middle-way followers have de-politicize the supreme sacrifices made by 13 self-immolators. Thanks for nailing down CCP’s ‘hamba’ and putting the issues into proper perspectives. And the self-immolators’ messages were loud and clear.
    However, JN’s tirades against Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama seem stretched. Rinpoche’s request regarding no-protest against visiting Chinese dignitaries should be seen in the context of the confidence-building measures that the TGIE was painstakingly putting up at that time. That doesn’t mean that Rinpoche do not protest against Chinese misrule in Tibet. There are different forms of protests and Rinpoche has been vocal in his criticism against Chinese repressions in Tibet.

  4. lobsang sherap | January 3rd, 2012 | 5:28 pm

    This is the first article I have ever read of yours. Though I know you are kind of well-known in our small Tibetan population and yet, I never had a chance to see or hear you or read your work. I like your argument that self-immolation is not against the teaching of Buddha when the action is seen as a benefit for others. I am also very impressed by your interpretation that calling for the Dalai lama returns is a call for independence. Your logic make sense and I hope these brave monks/nuns sacrifice is not a futile exercise. I hope you keep writing but your comment on His Holiness is off the mark because unlike you n me, he has to deal with the same Chinese leaders if opportunity presents today or tomorrow or whenever Tibet issues come up for resolution which it has to in the long run. You and others can get vocal in speech n actions..but wanting His Holiness to follow suit is unrealistic. So, please tone down your comment on him.

  5. Tseten Dolma | January 3rd, 2012 | 7:53 pm

    I agree with the ICT fundraiser, it was hypocritical and very opportunist. But I am completely opposed and appalled by you pointing fingers at His Holiness, it is uncalled for and your article could have easily been done without adding your immature child-like comparisons. Even your remarks about Samdong Rinpoche (which I somewhat agree) was again an unnecessary stitch on to this mumbo-jumbo article.

    Much as you accuse ICT for exploiting the situation, I see that you are worse by using those sacrifices to spark controversy against the very individual those sacrifices were made for, His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Who is cynical now? You sound like a deadpan politician using these sacrifices to harvest old wound when in reality today our community stands more united in exile and with Tibet.

    I don’t know which hole you live in, but I recommend you speak to our youngsters who are more agitated and angrier than you and yet have not tried to start any fire internally but rather focusing their energy against the real enemy – China. Maybe attend a talk by SFTs Tendor or RTYCs Jigmey Urgen who have been much more successful in channelizing their anger whilst successfully educating and building awareness, all by staying true to cause for the sacrifices in Tibet. Before you write your next article.

    Free Tibet!!!!

  6. Choni Tsultrim Gyatso | January 3rd, 2012 | 8:13 pm

    I wish I can say ” yes JN is right” but the reality is that all these 13 self-immolators are not Buddha and Bodhisattvas rather they were very ordinary people like you and me. I know you might argue say “how do you know they are not Buddha and Bodhisattvas?” I know I am not Buddha either but I can clearly say all the 13 self-immolation happened because of Chinese mistreating Tibetans, torturing and imprison innocent people, not religious freedom, not freedom move around plus force Tibetans to do things they don’t want to do. Example force monks and nuns step on Kundun’s photo etc. All these horrific things around them everyday and there are nobody can help them, therefore out of such desperation they sacrificed their lives just for world attention, let world know what has been happening in Tibet. I don’t think this appropriate quote Jataka tales compare with it.

    As far as Ranzen goes, once again I wish I can say “JN is right” but we have check the reality, how important it is to protect people and culture first rather than shout laud Ranzen without any immediate outcome. I know you might say what was out come of middle path, however I believed that middle path is at least another way to open up China’s leadership and middle path will find more supporters inside China. We need to know that our problem is not actually Ranzen or Middle path, the biggest problem is there is no unite among us and most people don’t even realize we are facing an insurmountable devil Communist China.

    After 13 people and two people born themselves to draw attention, for few weeks Tibetans around the world saddened and walked out shout loud and did demonstration, burnt Chinese flags in front of Chinese Embassies around the world. Then we talked about not to celebrate festivity and dance and sing even some Tibetan new papers posted say not celebrate New Year based TYC request to Tibetan to respect those gave up their lives for our cause. We all know what happened, TWA organized dance part, hundereds of Tibetans in New York participated, danced and sung all over night like they got Ranzen yesterday. Followed up RTYC did same thing on Christmas night. Is this respectful? Shame on us before dry up tears and dance and sing songs like nothing happened.

    Kasha’s voice is nothing to Chethu. Chethu’s message is nothing to people. Today people talk like real boy tomorrow becomes monkey boy. We all work and act like nothing to happened. I am tired now.

  7. Choni Tsultrim Gyatso | January 3rd, 2012 | 8:16 pm

    correction: no religious freedom, no freedom move around.

  8. wangdu | January 4th, 2012 | 12:56 am

    i appreciate gen jamyang la for his dedication and determination in his stand for complete independence. what is required is a man of practice. it is practicable that jamayang la can come to India and stand for the president-ship in the largest tibetan NOG that stands for independence.
    the only practical contributor since chinese occupation is none other than his holiness the 14th dalai lama. he made us proud by unifying the peoples from the three provinces of Tibet and the four different religious sects including bon tradition. no one in the history of Tibet been able to do that.

  9. Dawa | January 4th, 2012 | 1:24 am

    Thank you for this article Jamyang la. I have seen some people shaking their heads sadly and saying how unfortunate it is that these monks are acting against Buddhist principles.

    I have hard time explaining to these people that what the Tibetans in Tibet are facing is so desperate that the monks are forced to give up their lives to bring attention to the situation there.

    I have seen the word “indulge” used in some very inapproriate situations and I have a feeling it is due to lack of understanding of the exact meaning of the word. At least I hope this is so in this case for how very terrible otherwise for Tibetans to think that these Tibetan monks were being indulgent in burning themselves!

    If we look up the word INDULGE in the Thesaurus we will find it also means: delight, entertain, pamper, satiate, gratify, coddle etc. So Bhuchung K Tsering la and ICT shouldn’t mind how upsetting it is for people like JN to see the word “indulged” used in this context.

    Anyway, I want to thank JN la for this article which we enjoyed reading. Some people show tough love and others are brown nosers. JN will never be guilty of the latter offense.

  10. Tsering Dorjee | January 4th, 2012 | 2:21 am

    Thanks for this article. I do understand where you stand on this but I disagree as to the premise of it. These sacrifices were borne out of frustration and desperation on the ground, which has unfortunately led to them to make the supreme sacrifice for the benefit of Tibetans in Tibet. To let the world know the truth and the real aspiration of the Tibetans in Tibet. So, these two are definitely related and not isolated phenomenons as your position seem to make. But I am completely on board as to the usage of ‘indulge’ as that is quite disparaging and totally uncalled for and speaks volumes about the people who made use of the term – as people removed from reality.

    I am quite undecided on whether it is against Buddhist doctrine or not. There are many stories especially from Buddha’s previous lifetime to warrant such self-sacrifice. One such case would be the sacrifice of the young prince by offering his body to save the lioness and her cubs or was it the tigress and its cubs. That example seem much more appropriate in this case than the burning buddha which appears more like a fantastic allegory than a real story. But to even argue about whether it is buddhist or not is missing the whole point altogether and only serves to divert the attention away from the main reasons for the sacrifices, which is to let the world know that Tibetans are suffering under Chinese thugs and it is not peachy as it is presented. I believe the sacrifices should be brought back to this point instead of indulging some retards who always seem to see out of their ass than their eyes.

    And great job to the TWA and RTYC for hosting parties in honour of our Tibetan bretherns. I hope you are happy. Especially RTYC after TYC centrex has requested everyone to forfeit Losar this year??

  11. tashi nyima | January 4th, 2012 | 3:59 am

    I agree JN’s comment on ICT. They are nothing but a self serving office that absorbs a large chunk of our funding.

    I also protest DIIR and Phayul for publishing about possible Chinese spies in Bodhgaya these days. It is the intelligence’s task and they should take care of it. Why create suspicion among people?

  12. tsering topgyal | January 4th, 2012 | 12:39 pm

    I am constantly amazed when my fellow Tibetans extol the beauty of ‘mangtso’ but will not tolerate any dissent towards His Holiness( however respectful or tame the dissent may be).

    This sometimes reminds me of the relationship between Ayatollah Khomeini and his followers.

    I do understand that there are many differences between His Holiness and the Ayatollah…but regardless of the differences the one common denominator is that dissent is not permitted by those so called supporters.

  13. Rewalsar | January 4th, 2012 | 12:42 pm

    Perhaps, it is best not to interpret the “self immolation” in Buddhist context. Those who set themselves alight were Buddhist monks and nuns, but it is not necessary for this reason that what they did were Buddhist acts. They were freedom fighters in their heart and soul, and they died for Free Tibet. They were human beings and Tibetans, and they did what they thought was the right thing to do. Perhaps, what they did has nothing to do with their being monks and nuns.

    All the above sutra stories have abstract religious interpretation. Those acts were the acts of Boddhisatvas, the acts of compassion. There is no sense of “protest” involved.

  14. Buchung Rinzin Ngodup | January 4th, 2012 | 2:35 pm

    This article was brilliantly and well researched written. I am always been a big fan of your article, even though i have never met you personally, but I alway feel like I am with you whenever I read your article. I respect your writing and your dedication toward the issue of our Tibet. But sometime it makes me sad when you write about HH Dalai Lama and Samdong Rinpoche( Which is always been against) and I know it is your opinion.

  15. Namgyal Wangdu | January 4th, 2012 | 4:48 pm

    Jamyang Norbu la has shown a way of debating the issue of Tibet within our own community atleast. I am impressed and I do agree with him completely.

  16. Pema Kadag | January 4th, 2012 | 6:03 pm

    Rewalsar…well said!

  17. NewgenerationTB | January 4th, 2012 | 9:37 pm

    I did hear JN on numerous occassions professed he does not know about religion, which he seems Tibetan Buddhism. Well, now the story unfold by itself, he just politicized the entire story when it fits his agenda. However, his cited examples about Buddhist act of sacrifice from Jarkata tales are obviously there. Now, the problem is, why do we need to debate whether it is Buddhist or non-Buddhist? Whether people who gave their entire body and mind for their conviction, are Boddhisatva or not?

    It is obvious, JN certainly has score some of oldie personal problems….why cannt he be candid about it instead of throwing some of seemingly unsubstantiated arguments in between his arguments…..I have noticed it long time back.

    @TSERING TOPGYAL, what is your definition “Mangzo” (sorry, it is not MANGTSO)? Different countries have different rules in the context of so called “mangzo”….I am pretty amused you are still in the utopia of “mangtso” where definitions are fixed and universal…..For example, anything extoling Jidistare crimal which undermines national security, why in the model country of world restrict “mangtso”? Anything that disagrees with Indian official line on Kashimir is prehibited in India…..what happens to the Mangtso in India? Therefore, please write before you know it, otherwise your generalized version of “mantso” will do no good for Tibetan Mangzo.

    NG

  18. wazayak | January 4th, 2012 | 10:13 pm

    To borrow from the Gettysburg address,”…in a larger sense, we can not dedicate — we can not consecrate — we can not hallow — this… The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.

  19. Rewalsar | January 5th, 2012 | 2:42 am

    … However, according to the law of Buddhist monks and nuns, suicide (no matter how patriotic it may be) is liable to (monastic) criminal charge of attempt “murder”, which is one of the four basic offences, on finding guilty of which the accused may face expulsion from the congregation. The expulsion here has a technical connotation, according to (the abstract religious interpretation of) Buddhist ethic. It means that the accused will automatically lose his or her monk or nun-hood. This monk or nun-hood (“dompa” in Tibetan) is considered to be a meta-physical factor called “non-associate compositional factor” which is believed to have been present in a monk or nun’s “mind body aggregate” when his or her monk or nun-hood is intact. And it ceases to exist when the monk or nun-hood is not intact. It is said that the one whose monk or nun-hood is intact has a kind of glow in one’s face. And this glow fades away when one’s monk or nun-hood is fragmented.

    Also it is said that dogs never bark at a monk or a nun whose monk or nun-hood is intact, but they do when it is fragmented. It seems dogs can sniff out not only the hidden drugs at airports but also the fragmented monk or nun-hood: (this piece of information is entirely based on street hearsay and therefore no documented sources; so not to be taken seriously).

    So, there is a bit of truth in saying that it is against Buddhist law, but it is not as simple as one might think of. In the case of suicide, it is impossible to prove the accused guilty of murder. In order to be able to do it, the murderer must be alive at the time when he or she has accomplished committing the murder and is “satisfied” of his or her achievement. This “satisfaction” is the borderline in order to prove someone guilty of a murder, which in the case of suicide is impossible.

    Technically, one may say that what those monks and nuns have done is a breach of their law, for that matter the law of Buddhism. But the issue of whether or not their deed is against Buddhist law is very much out of topic here in this context, i.e. the struggle for Free Tibet. The question is not whether they had lost their monk or nun-hood. They might have or they might not have. It is a metaphysical debate. What counts here is that they did it for Free Tibet, and when Tibet become Free, it is because of them also.

    One would have been able to stop them from dying, but they died a gruesome death. It is a sad story. The best thing one can do now is leave them in piece.

  20. Gyaltsen Norbu | January 5th, 2012 | 8:02 am

    NewgenerationTB: I have serious doubt that you could understand the concept of Mangtso (democracy) if you can even not spell it properly… Although there’s disagreement on “Mang” (མང་ or དམངས་), “tso” is always spelt གཙོ་.

  21. daveno | January 5th, 2012 | 8:16 am

    i must congratulate and say “shabash!” for inserting rangzen soul or flavor cunningly for those hungry…

    Very disappointed to the fact that Gyalwa Rinpoche and Samdong Rinpoche were unnecessarily dragged into this topic eventhough irrelevant to the subject.
    The subject or item stands on its own with its own surrounding environments.you cant just make a connection between 2 subject similar to what our parents does when they say “how couldn’t you behave like neighbor’s kids, why can’t you be good at math when you excel in geography”.

  22. Jamyang Norbu on Tibetan self-immolations | January 5th, 2012 | 9:08 am

    [...] by young Tibetan monks and nuns inside of Tibet – you can read it on his blog Shadow Tibet. His analysis looks at historic instances of self-immolation as a political act by practitioners of [...]

  23. Darig Thokmay | January 5th, 2012 | 12:57 pm

    This essay is truly an intellectual piece which also can be considered as the best answer to those false comments by some pro-Chinese writers who are hardly creating that the act of self immolation is Anti-Buddhism and anti-Tibetanness, even some of them interpreting it is as the act of violence and terrorism.

    Recently some Chinese representatives falsely pointed a logic that ” it is the act of terrorism because it terrifies people ” Just play the game of words.

    I came crossed some commentators who are opposing this essay as he mentioned HH Dalai Lama. But, I would like to say ” Don’t forget that Our great leader is not like Chinese silly authorities to whom no one allowed to criticize or argue rather than praising,,,,”

    Sometimes,at practical level, we are not able to differentiate our democracy from Chinese totalitarianism.

  24. newgeneratioontb | January 5th, 2012 | 5:31 pm

    @Gyaltsen Norbu: Can you write actual Tibetan name for democracy? Which democracy you are referring to? Indian? American? British? Thai? Japanese? When comes to specificity and technality, all these democratic countries deferers in their observation and actual administration and implementation of national laws according to national needs and necessity. I am afraid you are one of those who learn few lines from one book and start preaching others as fool and you only can get the meaning straight. Finally, what is Tibetan democracy? I would highly appreciate if you can write in Tibetan the entire response, in that way, there wont be any probabilities of misunderstanding.

    NG

  25. TSUNDRU | January 5th, 2012 | 10:32 pm

    Ultimately Everything boils down to the basic simple fact that their motivation was PURE.
    That is Dharma.

  26. Gyaltsen Norbu | January 5th, 2012 | 11:09 pm

    Once again NewgenerationTB digresses: needs first to make a big issue out of nothing, a mere spelling, in upper case letters to make sure everyone noted his word, and then, when proven wrong, jump into another ‘big’ argument of his. Always quite entertaining…

  27. Heat of the Snow | January 6th, 2012 | 12:39 am

    Congratulation for this wonderful article.

    However I must say……While going through the article, I thought at the beginning that it was your response to Chinese leaders’ statements on self-immolation, then the topic of some of the paragraphs later on seems dragging away from the title, at the end it seems your article is a response to Bhuchung la and ICT. I too felt that involving His Holiness and Rinpoche (which is your style) was unnecessary which has also added wound to your article and to hearts of readers as well.

    I went through every comments of this article and very much agree with most of them. So, please do follow what your readers and friends have commented.

  28. Kalsang Phuntsok | January 6th, 2012 | 1:34 pm

    Unlike some of the commentators here, I wouldn’t want JN la to change his style to reduce my personal discomfort with the truth. We are fortunate to have someone like JN la who despite finding himself the lone voice, continues to have the courage to point to the faults of not only our enemy but of our own. We need more people like JN la who have the courage and integrity to criticize where criticism is deserved.

  29. tashi nyima | January 6th, 2012 | 9:39 pm

    If you really love someone, you should not only appreciate about him/her, but also critique be it His Holiness or Samdong Rinpoche. It is largely due to our inability to offer criticism that pushes HH into making many politically incorrect statements and gestures in the past. Sometimes, when he is addressing High School students, he begins his talk with Professors, students… While accusing CCP of violating Human rights inside Tibet, he obliviously address them as the ‘Chinese’ thereby hurting Billion plus Chinese people on this planet. He has been touring with his official translators for the last more than fifty years now, and still he is not learning even the basic spoken language. Most importantly I being one of the non Shugden practitioners would like to request HH and Samdong Rinpoche to stop making bad remarks about them once and for all. Shugden issue brought division among us. It harms our struggle in the long run. Bod Gyalo!

  30. daveno | January 6th, 2012 | 10:28 pm

    how about criticizing the criticizer..welcome to the liberal democracy of modern chimpanze, especially the unqualified criticizer with ulterior motives.

  31. dawa | January 6th, 2012 | 10:59 pm

    Thanks Jamyang la for your great essay.

  32. tsering dorjee | January 7th, 2012 | 12:03 am

    Daveno la, you and others were busy critizing the critizer, as you will, for the major part of this blog. Nobody stopped you. Jamyang Norbu la was not only critized but almost beaten up for his outspoken criticism. His holiness if we are being honest is still considered beyond criticism by most Tibetans, even if they were brought up in a westerzined society. That kind of attitude, especially related to politics is the achilles’ heel of tibetan society, whereas no feed back to Kundun led to disastrous consequences which we are still unable to rectify. And of course this monkey Katri will never have the courage to fix. Everybody is out for their own glorification and everybody is updating their latest tyrst with Richard Gere or maybe share a little bit about their morning routine. Tibetan politics has been now reduced to facebook popularity and special interest promotion with no real contrete results on the ground. This is the end result of 365 years of God worship. We need to urgently fight on issues rather than the person involved. Only then will we embark on a new bold future.

  33. tsering dorjee | January 7th, 2012 | 12:08 am

    …also, I am really saddened by the capitulation of the Tibetan intellectuals like Buchung and Tsering Shakya which change their political view or are rather afraid to do their duties as true men of pen and wisdom. Whatever Jamyang Norbu’s fault may be, his integrity is beyond reproach. That alone is worth beyond gold or some odd popularity contest on facebook.

  34. NewgenerationTB | January 7th, 2012 | 9:13 pm

    @GN: I am not digressing, but you are attempting to divert attention. Since you unreasonably accussed me of wrong spelling. I am not sure which spelling, I guess it is the word “Mangzo” which I corrected yours since the Tibetan word ཚ་ is not same as the its predecessor ཙ་. Hence, even in terms of phonetic translation, yours is highly wrong and completely misleading. I presume you say the word incorrectly by yourself in your daily life without even knowing the actual word and its literal meaning, maybe you are using the word from street talk; in stead of seeing the problem, you start imposing your incorrect view onto others and defending it. I hope my conclusion about your Tibetan language skill is wrong, if not, I advice you go back to school and learn, then come back to debate regarding actual Tibetan language or literary. Since this is a pure phonetic writing in English, I requested you to write in Tibetan, so we will be better off understanding clearly rather than using another language which creates unnecessary confusion, I also requested, if possible, write entirely in Tibetan for which I would love to see how far you have come to preserve you real identity. Mangtso as you said, “Tse” similar to “ཚ་” therefore, we write Tsering. “z” phonetically similar to “ཙ་”. I think you are one of those who is ignorant of your own language, who might even be embarrassed to use it or write in it. I hope I am wrong and hope you will prove me wrong. I would love to have a interllectual debate in Tibetan with you if you want to pursue further. I am all open. Boy, it is time to shed your pretense. I am kinda amused people like you who try to trivialize others argument when you are defenseless of your ignorance and your ignorance is EXPOSED, I hope you are not ignorant at Tibetan language as such. I am still looking forward to debate with you in Tibetan, our language, so that our linguistic mis-communication through alien language will be zeroed, and we might see the possibility of productivity in our conversation.

    NG

  35. Dawa | January 8th, 2012 | 3:18 am

    I agree with Kelsang Phuntsok and Tsering Dorjee and others who believe that HH and SR should not be beyond criticism if we are to be democratic society. If you want to revert to theocratic rule then that’s a different matter altogether.

    And the reason HH and SR’s names get “dragged” (not my word) into discussions should be obvious to everyone. Tibet is under foreign occupation and Tibetans inside are suffering. We are protesting this injustice and each in our own way are trying to keep the hope alive that some day we will be free. HH and SR have great influence over Tibetans and those who are interested in the Tibetan issue. It would be nice if they use their influences for the advancement of Tibet’s independence before they think about global salvation of a Buddhist sort.

    And Yeah. What’s with this Shugden hang up? Aren’t those spirits conjured up by our own minds? Isn’t that in the Buddhist texts clearly laid out? Would Buddha have cared one way or the other?
    Just don’t get so fanatical, you on both sides of the issue. I just don’t see why people get so worked up about this particular issue. About this particular topic I found out both sides are equally fanatical.

  36. Dawa | January 8th, 2012 | 3:24 am

    Buddhism is a religion of reason and not of superstitious beliefs. Right?

  37. Tibet News team | January 8th, 2012 | 6:49 am

    A wonderful article from Jamyang Norbu la. It makes us to think out of box and from a wider aspect of these issue. This article is the change that we need and now to get changed or not is again upto individual.. Please be stronger and bolder Tibetan… We need Change but don’t change ourselves.

  38. Dokpa | January 8th, 2012 | 4:59 pm

    Dear JN,

    From any angle, the influence of China must end once and for all. For the greater good of the world, China must be sacrificed like the noble actions of all the “Buddhas”

    Your observations are true. But, being a buddhist my self I always struggle with “motivation”. Its so hard to attach a label on actions. I am glad you have laid out the facts. Facts are facts and its upto people to draw their conclusions. Neverthe less, I honour your feelings.

    JN, you are my hero from the time I was in Home # 3 and you lived in Home #2. I was “Naptu Zee”

    Dokpa

  39. Chinese Engineer | January 8th, 2012 | 9:48 pm

    “For the greater good of the world, China must be sacrificed”

    so is this delusional cunt advocating the death of 1.3 billion people, the collapse of the Chinese state, or the destruction of Chinese civilization? Or perhaps a gruesome combination of the three?

    I’m quite curious.

  40. NewgenerationTB | January 8th, 2012 | 11:04 pm

    @Dawa: Yes, Buddhism is religion of reason, therefore, it goes with modern science so well. In fact, modern neuroscience is benefitting from Buddhist thought and philosophy. Whereas, Shugden is a superstitious cult where questions are discouraged and people are manipulated. You should read more about those who came out of this cult and personally record their trials. I think you still need a lot to study. Just reading online few article here and there is of course not enough. Those who against Shugden is clear, the merit and demerit of shuden is laid out bare, whether follow it or not, up to individuals. So peace out! Observing symptoms and claiming one has the full knowledge of a complex phenomenon is equally absurd. By the way, to understand shugden, one needs to understand social, political, and spiritual conditions of Tibetan regions goes back to 1642!

    NG

  41. dawa | January 9th, 2012 | 12:23 am

    Shugden is a religious matter and Kashag should stay away from this issue once and for all. Otherwise, there won’t be much difference between our’s with that of Nazi’s attitude towards jews. Although I’m not a shugden follower, but I’m highly critical of what Dharamsala is doing in this regard. At this time, unification of all the Tibetans around the world should be of top priority. The Chinese already started using Shugden followers to destabilize our movement.

  42. NewgenerationTB | January 9th, 2012 | 1:26 am

    @Dawa: Your comparizon does not make any sense unless you just want to thrown in some emotionally charged world events into the discussion, thus loosing the direction of the discussion.

    If you follow the origion of shugden, it is a political problem manifested in the form of sperficial religious issue. It was a religious-political issue. I am not sure modern day shugdenpas are political or not…..but it was a political issue in the past, that’s why I especially pointed out the date 1642 as the origin of this complex issue that we are confronted with today.

    Regarding your comments on present Kashag, as far as I am concerned I did not hear any specific statement from the present kashag led by Lobsang Sangey. I think you need to catch up with developments.

    Again, 1642…….whoever worship Dolgyal or not, does not matter, it is a matter of individual faith. It was the foundation and it will be the foundation. Stop claiming Shugden is the defender of Je-Tsonkhapa’s tradition…..it drives wedge amongst all five sects of Tibetan Buddhism. Be a 21st century Buddhist, know the meaning, dont be carried away by sects and its name…..we dont need to so called piou gelukpa or kadamserma or whatever the hack is….

    NG

  43. Rewalsar | January 9th, 2012 | 6:12 am

    The present interpretation of those who set themselves alight in the “fire protest” as a might coming from the “heroic and action oriented tradition of Buddhism” is a very interesting and brilliant one.
    However, how far it is true in the light of the philosophy of the three schools of Buddhist thought (i.e., the “small”, the “big” and the “thunderbolt” school)either collectively or individually, perhaps, is still an open-ended point of discussion.

  44. Gyaltsen Norbu | January 9th, 2012 | 9:22 am

    NewgenerationTB #34: you’re still wrong. Mangtso is never written with a ཚ་. Even if it would be, it would still be rendered as ‘tso’ or ‘tsho’, such as in ‘Namtso’ or ‘Gyamtso’, but never as ‘zo’ (which is used to render ཟོ་, such as in ‘kyakpa zo!’). Below are the exact form of the word ‘democracy’ in Tibetan:

    Wylie transliteration: dmangs-gco / mang-gco
    English phonetic: mangtso

  45. daveno@gmail.com | January 9th, 2012 | 10:56 am

    “”And the reason HH and SR’s names get “dragged” (not my word) into discussions should be obvious to everyone. Tibet is under foreign occupation and Tibetans inside are suffering. We are protesting this injustice and each in our own way are trying to keep the hope alive that some day we will be free. HH and SR have great influence over Tibetans and those who are interested in the Tibetan issue. It would be nice if they use their influences for the advancement of Tibet’s independence before they think about global salvation of a Buddhist sort.”"

    This should have been perfect under a title
    “What each Tibetan could contribute towards our cause”.

  46. TSUNDRU | January 9th, 2012 | 12:19 pm

    The most recent immolations made it to the front pages of ‘wall street journal’.
    Came in to work and manager tells me ‘tsundru ! did u see the headlines?”

  47. Dokpa | January 9th, 2012 | 6:00 pm

    CE,

    Hear the testimony of Tibetans who escape from Tibet.
    Hear the cries of monk who self immolate.
    Hear the Sharks cry for help.
    Hear the Rhinos cry for help.
    Hear air choking with black gases.
    Hear the rivers going into India, poisoned.
    Hear the lands in Tibet greedily ripped open for more and more…
    Hear the forest in Tibet cut mercilessly.
    Hear cries of millions of Chinese work in factories in inhumane conditions.
    Hear millions of Chinese pushed out of lands without any rights.
    Hear the wars you sponsor in middle east, korea and in south asia.
    Hear the frustration when you shoot down any hope of peace in UNO.
    Hear ! Hear ! ………..

    China is unsatiable, gruesome pest on this planet. They want to get, get and get and only for them, no one else. And, unfortunately they have no shame like a seasoned “postitute”.

    Don’t you call this gruesome ?? These are not history from the past. These are whats happening now for all to see and hear. I know no one can discuss history with China.

    Tibet will never be part of China. China will never be part of Tibet. I know we are weak now. But, we will wait.

    Dokpa

  48. Chinese Engineer | January 9th, 2012 | 7:51 pm

    I’m sorry, I can’t hear anything over your rampant stupidity.

    Enjoy your continued irrelevance.

  49. tsering | January 9th, 2012 | 8:47 pm

    @CHINESE ENGINEER, people must have laughed at the philosopher who told them that the earth is not flat but round. You can also laugh right now.

  50. Dokpa | January 9th, 2012 | 9:56 pm

    CE,

    Irrelavant or you do not want to face the truth? Your kind of attitutde is exhibited by the current regime and therefor the enemity continues.

    You are educated and you know the history. The table always turns.

    Dokpa

  51. empty | January 9th, 2012 | 10:11 pm

    All you losers are playing with words and biting each other, and doing nothing for Tibet in reality.What have you done for your country, your people? nothing and nothing and nothing.You will die by uttering no,no,yes,yes, fuck and fuck, a single word of OM will occur from yous dirty asshole. that it, you fake Tibetans……

  52. NewgenerationTB | January 10th, 2012 | 12:02 am

    @Gn: write in Tibetan, so the chapter will be closed.

    NG

  53. Tsering Dorjee | January 10th, 2012 | 2:00 am

    @empty: What are the questions to the answers? no, no, yes, yes, fuck, and fuck?

  54. Agu Tonpa | January 10th, 2012 | 2:23 am

    NewGenerationTB and Chinese Engineer are different sides of the same coin. They both can’t stand against valid and reasonable criticism of thier own government. Among the two, however, i admire Chinese engineer and for that matter Most of the Chinese, one thing: They are bend on killing/maiming/silencing the Tibetan, be it those who support HH or those who are against. He/they think Tibetans are the babarian and ungrateful Enemy and deserved to be killed. I Like that spirit and wish more of us Tibetan have the same.
    NewgenerationTB always display an old man Syndrome where he bullys only an old lady. If you represent new Tib generation, I am ashamed!

  55. empty | January 10th, 2012 | 5:30 am

    there are many question and answer with those words,but below are just some simplest for these who alway appear with mumbo jumbo but sacrificing nothing for our people.

    Do you speak proper Tibetan and teach it to your children? no…………….
    Do you want to go back to Tibet and keep your tradition? no……….
    Do you speak broken English and make foreign land as your home? yes…………….
    Do you want to bring your family members to the west? yes………..
    what do you know about the American? yes,the word fuck………….
    What do you think of China? again,the word fuck and shit………….
    This is all about those losers,it that clear?

  56. Gyaltsen Norbu | January 10th, 2012 | 11:00 am

    NewgenerationTB #17, 34 & 52: I won’t go into Tibetan language because your argument was (a) about English spelling and (b) about the universal meaning of democracy – not about Tibetan fluency — thank you for diverting from the original issue once again. Not only were you trying to mislead readers (obviously without much success) but also to insult their intelligence by stating that democracy in Tibetan should be spelt ‘Mangzo’, that it should have ‘different rule’ from countries to countries and, consequently, that a ‘generalized version’ of democracy will do no good for Tibetans.

    Since I already proved you that your English spelling is completely wrong, let me also tell you that your concept of tailor-made democracy is equally off beam.

    Democracy has no different meaning based on geography. It’s unscrupulous governmental and religious institutions — and people like you — that pervert it and violate it in the name of a so-called ‘national security’ or in defense of a ‘supreme leader’. Never for good reasons and never for the benefit of the people. It’s not because India ban any open discussion on Kashmir that Indian democracy is ruined, nor is it because President Obama illegally keeps prisoners at Guantanamo that his policies represents American democracy. These are offences that cannot be linked to democracy — even less to ‘regional’ democracies — but to the miscarriages of governments, and they are generally loudly criticized by their own intellectuals and writers, precisely in defense of basic democratic values. Jamyang Norbu is one of these critics and every Tibetan should be grateful for his tireless work at investigating Dharamsala’s wrongdoings, even if this includes His Holiness.

    But if you are still not convinced, take North Korea. It is a ‘democratic’ people’s republic but the Korean people have only the right to shut up and cry the death of their beloved leader. According to you, what’s wrong in North Korea: democracy or the totalitarian flavor (sorry, the Korean flavor) subtly added to it by Pyongyang’s regime?

    I bid you farewell Kim Jong-un Jr. You are, like Chinese Engineer, desperately uninviting.

  57. Chinese Engineer | January 10th, 2012 | 11:13 am

    “The table always turns.”

    tell that to the Incas and the Mayans. Or even the Native Americans. Or the indigenous population of Guam. Or the Palestinians.

    There is no shortage of examples.

  58. Sayadruk | January 10th, 2012 | 12:05 pm

    Like Tsering Topgyal (12), it never ceases to amaze me that, even in this day and age, people would go at such length by jumping at messengers not the messages without a second thought simply to show their indomitable faith and respect for His Holiness, perhaps with a goal to show that somehow the other party is anti-His Holiness or anti-CTA. Such a tactic—centuries old tactic—to silence people is counterproductive to say the least and history is a testament to this fact. Hopefully, such a cunning strategy will no longer work in light of people becoming more open minded about a whole host of issues and most importantly, educated. Tsering Topgyal (12), Namgyal Wangdu (15), Darig Thokmy (23), Kalsang Phuntsok (28), and Tashi Nyima (29) prove this point. It is important to be critical of leaders, but with the best of motivation and intention if we deeply care about our cause, which did not make any meaningful headways in the last fifty odd years under the leadership of His Holiness.

    His Holiness and Samdong Rinpoche should not be a part of any critical discussion? Is such extremism healthy and fruitful? Do such acts not defeat the very purpose of democratic values and systems His Holiness painstakingly instituted in the exiled community? His Holiness being a political leader in addition to being a spiritual leader, He should be answerable to the people He is leading. Anyone holding a public office, including His Holiness, should be a fair game in order for the community as a whole to thrive, which by the way is the best strategy to protect and promote the reputation of His Holiness and the institution of the Dalai Lamas by making their leadership meaningful, constructive, memorable, and effective, to list a few.

    By the way, what do we call someone against whom no criticism could be directed? A simple answer is, dictator. And this is not what we want to project our leader as because He is not a dictator, without any shred of doubt, but if we are not careful in our devotion and love for the leader, we run the risk of, yes, projecting Him as a dictator.

    I recently saw a documentary called, National Geographic: Inside North Korea, produced by Lisa Ling. It would be hard for any reasonable persons to say that our community is much different from that of North Korea when it comes to the relationship that is nurtured between the leader and his people. Tsering Topgyal (12) made an interesting and valid point about the common denominator between His Holiness and Khomeini.

    I know His Holiness has recently gave up His political power. However, the institution of the Dalai Lama ruled Tibet for nearly four centuries. We all know the outcomes of His Holiness’ leadership in the last fifty odd years and that of the Dalai Lama institution over the last four centuries.

    We lost our country under the leadership of His Holiness. Under His Holiness’ leadership, we gave up our fight for complete independence. What I don’t get is why would someone who talks a lot about truth prevailing at the end would give up the indisputable truth that is in our pocket and give up independence even before fighting for it. Under His Holiness’ leadership, we changed the name of our exiled administration, much against the wishes of the Tibetan people. His Holiness has not been successful in producing professionals in our community in the last five decades. His Holiness has not used his wealth and influence to help the Tibetan students gain opportunities to pursue professional degrees in reputable universities in the US and other developed countries. His Holiness makes public commitment that He would not fulfill. The list can go on.

    However, I do not believe His Holiness is solely responsible for His ineffective and failed leadership. He should definitely take His share of the blame. Is this why He gave up His political power? Is this why He fears being overthrown? I would, however, blame the Tibetan people as much as I assign the blame to our esteemed leader. Why would I blame the Tibetan people? Simply because they, sorry we, significantly contributed to the failed leadership of His Holiness by refusing to actively participate in fulfilling His numerous noble visions. What better outcomes can we expect when our community is filled with free loaders? Does this sound familiar, it takes two to tango?

    Therefore, I must say that it would be inaccurate to assign the entire blame to His Holiness for His failed leadership because, like I said earlier, we failed Him as much as He failed us. Aside from free loading, like Tashi Nyima pointed out, our blind and misplaced devotion to His Holiness denied Him the opportunity to receive constructive feedback from the people He is leading, and thereby, remained disconnected with the people and their aspirations. So sad. Because we cannot turn back the clock. I recently watched Newt Gingrich’s (Republican presidential candidate) town hall meeting he held in Iowa. One of the things he said (of course I am going to paraphrase him) was that if he is elected president, he would build a social network of 5-10-15 million people so that he does not have to depend only on 500 odd lawmakers in Washington DC to shape the direction the country should take and that people should alert him if the government finds itself on wrong path. What is the take away message? To me, the take away message is that he is serious about lending his ears to the people he is leading and to remain connected with them and their aspirations.

    The Tibetan people have not done any favor to His Holiness and to the cause we are fighting for by relying solely and excessively on His Holiness to find a resolution to the Tibetan problem, among others. History has shown that it is impractical and perilously naïve for a cause so big like that of ours to allow it to be assigned to a single individual. A one-man show will not work. His Holiness served the Tibetan people to the best of His ability, there is no question about it. However, He fell short on numerous counts to obtain desirable outcomes.

    Therefore, I urge the people of my great country to wake up, be realistic, engage in healthy and constructive criticisms, be proactive in promoting our cause in any which way, and finally, practice what His Holiness advises us to do, both in words and deeds. If you do those things, I strongly believe that we will succeed in making His Holiness happy, and most importantly, strengthening our community and realizing our ultimate goal.

    And finally, I like to use this platform to share my thoughts with His Holiness on the remarks that Jamyang la said His Holiness made about the oil pipeline between Alberta (Canada) and Texas (US). I must admit that I have not seen that remark from His Holiness. However, I have seen His Holiness made numerous remarks on the topic of global warming. I want His Holiness to understand that the global warming is a highly political issue. Perhaps more political than the Sino-Tibetan issue. Just don’t poke your nose into environment and global warming issues. That is not your area of expertise. Besides, like I said earlier, it is a highly political issue and I don’t want you to get entangled in such vicious debates, unnecessarily, where people are nasty on both sides of the aisle. Therefore, Kundun, just stick with secular ethics, religious harmony, peace, and compassion because this suits you well.

    I would, however, not discourage His Holiness from taking part in discussions on global warming, only if He is doing a serious research on this topic. And that He has credible data and results (with statistical analyses of the data) to back up His claim/s. If your Holiness is not a serious researcher in the topic you are talking about, your views on any such topics do not have any credence whatsoever and no one will take you seriously. Like Jamyang la pointed out, you don’t want to talk about something just because it is fashionable to do so without clearly understanding the other side of the coin.

  59. NewgenerationTB | January 10th, 2012 | 12:23 pm

    lol…I thinK you will take your passion for Tibet with your death…you children will be not more than skin deep Tibetan, this conclusion I can reach as far as I can see from your self-rightous post, and not willing to write in Tibetan. There is no English word for Tibetan word for democracy unless you think democracy is both Tibetan as well as English word. Once again, since you are not well versed in Tibetan, just write the “Tibetan word” for democrcacy, for example Chinese word for democracy is “民主”. I think this “Chinese term” is not English. I dont know what supreme leader you are talking about….there is no such as supreme, there is only reason, logic, realistic, facts…based on these things people make up their minds. Someone who writes well in English does not make one is honest and truthful about one’s analysis. I have seen through JN’s writing, I might have read his stuffs way before than you do, my reading about these shits since middle school when average Tibetan kids are mismeraized by bolliwood songs and dances, and having a fanciful, yet a underdeveloped and backward version of TIBET. I came to my own analysis through those unsubstantiated verses here and there, not by the generalized version of “great scholar” on JN. It is true, I do agree with him or his article on some topics or some parts, but not all. I did my own research before coming to my conclusion, and I can see in the foreseeable future, I cannot be converted to the same crwod who only worship the “rangzen guru”. I think this shows my own independent thinking, not a member of brainwashedI group who do not have a brain of their own. Personally, one’s cause is should not just skin deep, emotional outburst, armchair smartass pretentious scholars and posters like you, I do believe people who do the real work without any ulterior motives….those are real supreme leaders. Regarding your comparizon me with Chines Engineer, you might meant it with a mean motive, I am pressure of it. However, what I admire this guy or any Chinese from China is, they are WELL VERSED AND WELL EDUCATED IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE on top of their passion for their distorted version of China as a country in term of territorial fixation. That is why, if you go to any CHinese restaurants or communities, these people use their own language, speak, write, and live it to preserve. What did happen to Tibetan like you who are from diaspora? Did not Tibetan government fed you guys well, not just the stomach, but education, moreover, Tibetan education, the language. But you guys fail far behind in your own language, while you are accussing someone else for linguistic destruction. Yes, Chinese are doing everything to eridicate, but Tibetans inside are just as strong as to keep it going. The worst thing is, the accusser, the people of your type, destroying your own culture unconsciously, that is the worst destruction of any kinds. Do you think, these kinds are people will bring freedom for Tibet? Never, I say never. It is the people who live on the land, people who endure the harsh environments {meant for the mental state, not for the physical environment}, people who preserve their culture and language by living, not by posting and boasting online, not by chasing facy, and intellectually correct books in comfort zones of home will……Still I appreciate your passion, I recommendation you, go back to school and LEARN TIBETAN LANGUAGE. Then, when you say something, people will take you seriously. Otherwise, drop the PRETENSE!

    NG

  60. Sonam Dakpo | January 10th, 2012 | 2:10 pm

    NG: what’s this gobbledygook?

  61. NewgenerationTB | January 10th, 2012 | 3:05 pm

    @Sonam Dakpo…Meant dont be armchair scholar and critics or all I know about all issues mentality…Dont be infatuated anything of EAST or WEST…..dont jump into bandwagon as your emotion says so, listen to your reasoning heart, have an independent thinking. Know yourself before pointing fingers to others. If you say, our struggle will continue another 200 years as an example of Indian case, prepare for it by living. Otherwise, the death is in the horizon for the diaspora community who are too disconnected from the land they are supposed to fighting for. No mean motive….just a frank remark by living on both sides of the himalaya, having seen so many big talkers…..I am still with my CONCLUSION unless someone will really come up with not just a realistic argument and philosophical reasoning, but more important is, how practical it is. Until, I advice big talkers look in the mirror and check carefully…..check if you have missed some important factors before you make your arguments.

    NG

  62. empty | January 10th, 2012 | 3:13 pm

    hi, losers, you lost your home, your country, you lost everything you once had.Democracy is a word belong and debated by these have their own sovereign and independence. We TIbetan have a saying that give your child a name after he or she was born.What the fuck wrong with you guys talking about democracy, mangtso, or mingzhu while we Tibetans are disappearing as a nation. DO you know what is happening in Tibet? people in Tibet want you to do something for Tibet in order to save Tibet from destruction. Would you please not talk about DL,SR so on because they are part of the old history and we cannot change their fixed ideology of theacratic way of thinking, and actually we are lucky enough to have DL who at lest doing his obligation as the religious leader to educate people around the world to be better human being which can bring some benefits to our cause.So,instead of talking about the flaws(they are not trained as politicians) of the Tibetan sacred culture rolic like DL and SR, why don’t you talk about Hu jingtao, red chinese and even gyamo gangrili (round feet chinese woman)instead to make your English,if you do not write Tibetan, words useful and meaningful. Please use your energy and wisdom to confront your enemy,do not “throw dust in your own eyes” which at least in this moment are functioning as the only light for the majority of the Tibetan people have been traveling through the darkness for more than five decades.

  63. Tsathrim | January 10th, 2012 | 4:28 pm

    @NEWGENERATIONTB: this is for u

    Article 1, Tibetan Charter

    His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, human manifestation of Avaloketeshvara, is the guardian and protector of the Tibetan nation. He is the guide illuminating the path, THE SUPREME LEADER, the symbol of the Tibetan identity and unity, and the voice of the whole Tibetan people.

  64. NewgenerationTB | January 10th, 2012 | 5:57 pm

    @TSATHRIM: Write to CTA’S relevant department or write directly to Katri Lobsang Sangey. Write to your local representative….Written charter may not necessarily represent everybody, it could be a general perception of the society due to a specific individual’s achievement accomplishment under life and death situation. If a leader have a quality based on logic, facts, charisma, vision, taking greater courage to confront enormous problems, maybe some people call it as “supreme leader”, maybe someone people call it because of faith and spiritual achievement of the object of faith. Of course “supreme leader” does not suitable those who incite common folks and achieve own agenda of self-interest, nor such title suitable to those who just sit in the relative safty of west or east and tell others what they should or should not be doing. If you get on the ground and do the real job, then public will pass the judgement on you. Maybe, it will be “you” to have the title if you are ready to take actions before talks…..charters can be changed. The charter of exile CTA is symbolic at best, and it falls into the world of futility when comes to exercising real powers because it lacked specific and legitimate areas of jurisdiction. It is on paper, if opportunity presents in the future, it is a plan, but it is not practically same as constitution of a sovereign country as such. Still, it can be changed if majority of the community agrees as we are very much infatuated with democracy, yet our school libraries are full of outdated and ideologically destroyed literature of USSR.

    To dissect your effort, lets start:

    “His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, human manifestation of Avaloketeshvara,”

    NG: It is religious and faithful Buddhist version, it did not just started with this 14th Dalai Lama, it started with the 1st Dalai Lama, even before, it is a fact of history as recorded. Whether one take this preposition with a religious reverence or cynical ahteist approach, it is upto inviduals. It is not an imposed order under gun point. You have all freedoms not to trust or believe in it. From my experience, Tibetans who have all freedom of the WEST, they still have huge protrait of current Dalai Lama in their houses and rooms, wether or not they follow his actual teachings or not. Maybe, your homes are decorated with his smiling protrait too…..the first way to remove the mentality of “supreme leader”,is start at home, dump all the photoes and posters and portrait, then you are upto real talk, this real and practical, not tall talk or preach from the high thrones. It is easy to start from your home than imposing on someone’s home.

    “is the guardian and protector of the Tibetan nation.”

    NG: Whether this is true or not, dig some history and check out his deeds. Dont verture far away, start from your family, compare your grandparents, parents and even your achievement with current Dalai Lama’s deeds. Then expand into community, and get to the conclusion. If you feel there is more deserving people, then name them out, let recognize and put on the altar of “guardian and protector of Tibet Nation” if the person fits the definition of “supreme leader”.

    “He is the guide illuminating the path, THE SUPREME LEADER,”

    NG:Is he the guide who illuminating the path? If not to you personally, then dont consider it. It is simple. If your personal griviances are not addressed which caused by your local corrupt officials. Maybe 1000 armed SUPREME leader do not have enough hands to reach out. Shoot the blame on him. If you did not get a scholarship, then blame him because he should be blamed due to his status of “SUPREME LEADER WHO SUPPOSED TO ACT AS GUIDES AND ILLUMINATE YOUR PERSONAL PATH”.

    “the symbol of the Tibetan identity and unity, and the voice of the whole Tibetan people.”

    NG:First question is, what is Tibetan identity? What is the general understanding of Tibetan identity? Is he really representing Tibetan idenity? If not, tell those who address as such, this is WRONG STATEMENT and provide your reason. Is he symbol of unity and voice of whole of Tibetan people? Is he unifying Tibetan people in general and does he represent general interest of 6+ millions of Tibetan people? If so, maybe he is. If not, he is not. At least, the 98% of Tibetans in Tibet wants to see him and risk their life for his return, from this standpoint, he indeed represented their voice. His single request of not wearing animal skin chupas, resonated across the plateau, it showed, he indeed represented them and they also responded with action. What is perception of tiny diaporic community, you be the judge. Boy, it time of fact and logic, time of superstition is gone are the days. If you believe in community, then discuss with your community members and changed the futile charter. It seems, at least you digged into the charter that bothered you while many bathing in ignorance and with a mentality of “I dont care and I dont give shit to it”.

    NG

  65. Dawa | January 10th, 2012 | 7:10 pm

    By the way the self immolation story was in a November issue of the Time magazine also.

  66. other BURNING ISSUE | January 10th, 2012 | 7:43 pm

    “I have warned the Tibetan Government-in-Exile about the numb response to its proposal of ‘middle way’ and I am planning to publish all the articles combining them into one book.”

    Who said this? Why now?

  67. sunia-empty | January 10th, 2012 | 8:42 pm

    again, you NG, what the fuck worng with you? talking about democracy, identity,charter are bullshit to Tibetans now you know.Having enough food to eat, warm cloths to wear,build school, educate farmers and nomads, publish newspapers and books in Tibetan, compose music,make film, go to university or the worest thing to go to mountain and meditate like Milarepa, or just make money and fuck are much better than just making empty talk here.

    Do not worry about your identity,you will get one if you do what the majority people think and do in Tibet. Do not worry about your democracy, you will get one if you follow the footstep of Loseng and others in India. Do not worry about the charter, you will get one if you dare to match into Beijing and dig the earth below the Tiananmen Square.Understand????

  68. NewgenerationTB | January 10th, 2012 | 10:35 pm

    @Empty:lol….you misundertood something? Your outburst of ego and anger for what reason? Articulate…..sorry for disturbing your peace of mind. Read and figure out to whom I responded. Dont tell me what, where, how and so on and so on. I got an independent thinking. I am not that typical zealous religious type, so dont bring in Milarepa into the discussion because it is totally IRRELEVANT here!

    Peace out!

    NG

  69. Agu Tonpa | January 10th, 2012 | 11:03 pm

    Looking at NewgenerationTB response #64, it solidly confirms that we are dealing with somebody with no proper frontal lobe of the brain. We all should give him sometime to mature it. We are not gonna get anywhere.

  70. NewgenerationTB | January 10th, 2012 | 11:29 pm

    @Agu: it is response to your TOO EDUCATED and TOO DEMOCRATICALLY INLINED friend @TSATHRIM, it seems the inclusion of the lines, especially the figure of KUNDUN did not sit wellwith TSATHRIM. I simply showed him few practical way to deal, so it might be helpful in reducing his irritation. If you feel like he feels, do as I mentioned.

    NG

  71. empty | January 11th, 2012 | 1:44 am

    NG, I am sorry bro if I made you angry. I just remind these gay out there just doing nothing but always criticizing that and this

  72. empty | January 11th, 2012 | 1:45 am

    guys, not gay

  73. Rewalsar | January 11th, 2012 | 3:24 am

    #Sayadruk | January 10th, 2012 | 12:05 pm

    Absolutely interesting comment, although not much related to the topic in question (the action of consciously setting alight oneself and Buddhism, which is very much like forcing to form a harmonious pair of a tiger and a sheep).

    Yes, His Holiness also seems to participate in the highly discipline-oriented subject, such as “sustainable gobal economy” based on the priciple of the sociologists of conflict-theory.

    Well, as long as he is guided by some highly talented experts, it is ok, as most leaders do so.

  74. Dawa | January 11th, 2012 | 3:42 am

    The final point is that the monks and other Tibetans who burnt themselves for Tibet are selfless patriots and what they did should not be condemned by anybody and least of all their fellow Tibetans.
    None of us here sound very Buddhist by the way we are so easily and quickly insulted and angered. And the anonymity of the internet allow the beasts in us to come out in full force. So just wallow in this self-adoration but let’s give recognition to the sacrifices made for Tibet by few brave souls.

  75. Tsathrim | January 11th, 2012 | 5:47 am

    @NEWGENERATIONTB: wrong, i was showing ur error when you said you I don’t know what supreme leader gyaltesn norbu was talking about.

  76. daveno | January 11th, 2012 | 9:00 am

    It is January 2012, after 4 or 5 months of the political power and authority on the shoulder of an elected political leader or Katri.Gyalwa Rinpoche and Samdong Rinpoche both are now religious or like any other Rinpoches without political authority and powers.This is the current reality-official ( Now, you could make up stuff for your own reality for coffee break or 3′o clock tea time gossip purposes).

    However, they have every rights to contribute,discuss on tibetan cause for being a Tibetan and towards Global cause for being a citizen of the world.

    Alberta pipeline issue is between Oil corp after almightly profit, backed by the Government for its own economic benefit reason ( Remember the foreign policy of ‘Tibet is a part of china’ card) and the environmetal concerned populations.After watching the reaction of BP and having heard on the damages still being experience by previously spilled location in Canada ( Human lives and other species). I as a buddhist would go for the “Semchen thamchey dheydhuk” than the short term economic benefits of the few. This is just an itty bitty opinion on the issue bigger than my head.

  77. NewgenerationTB | January 11th, 2012 | 9:32 am

    @Tsathrim:For your info, there is no such supreme leader if you are in complete ignorance and blind faith is the axiom of your belief. I have more faith in reason, logic, unbiased scholarly teaching and speech than emty talks given by few of myopic Tibetan scholars. If you had the patience to read my post carefully, I have listed several reasons why people believe in perception, for example, “If a leader have a quality based on logic, facts, charisma, vision, taking greater courage to confront enormous problems, maybe some people call it as “supreme leader”". I am included here. But I am not going out to peopel either online or in real discussion around the table, imposing my view, faith, and belief in Kundun to others. It is matter of my business. It seems, you have some troubles that phrases, there are quite of numbers of half-Tibs feel in that, so I gave self-help way to do away with their irriration.
    Does Kundun has Logic: Yes, more than any Tibetan, educated or uneducated, scholars or everyday lazy dude….

    Does: Kundun has facts: He gives more facts than any Tibetans, because in his political and spiritual calculation, he takes into consideration of vast number of people than just tiny Tibetan populations. He considers facts from all side rather than “The Tibtean Facts” which recited by rangzen scholars occassionally.

    Does Kundun has Charisma: Yes, hundred and thousands of people, who has no idea what Tibet is or what Buddhism is all about, just mesmerized by his very presence.

    Does Kundun has vision: Yes, his vision is not overnight revolutions as some in Tibetan quaters believe and preach regardless of its highly likely negative consequences. He sees a peaceful, stable, and mutually beneficial, win-win situation. He reaches out to Chinese, scholar or everage people,spiritual followers of atheists.

    Did Kundun took greater risk to confront enormous problems: Yes he did. When he first came to India, got nothing. Only he knows the sky above and earth underneath the two feet. He built the diaspora community and schools you and your children went and go now. Due to his leadership, Tibetans well fed than most displaced people in the world. Due to his leadership, you got a decent education for free. What do you still expect from him? Did he fail you because you did not becomes a professional yourself? Did he fail you because you could not get a scholarship because of your poor education? Absolutely not….but some people seem do not see these thing. Therefore, I listed, facts, logics, reason, and history as a basis to decide if he is the supreme leader. By now, you should have got what I meant. However, I am not going to IMPOSE my faith in faith to you or anyone. It is my business.

    NG

  78. Rewalsar | January 11th, 2012 | 1:00 pm

    #77
    Do kudras have these qualities?

  79. NewgenerationTB | January 11th, 2012 | 4:54 pm

    @Rewalsar: ask your daddy!

    Let me know…..

    NG

  80. Sayadruk | January 11th, 2012 | 4:58 pm

    Rewalsar (73), I agree that my comment was not directly related to the topic in question, but most of the comments here are not related to the topic either. That is not the point, however. As you could see, my comment was specifically intended for those who were vehemently defending His Holiness and Trisur, Samdong Rinpoche without understanding the deeper meaning of criticism and what we could get out of healthy and constructive criticisms. My comment was, of course, intended for the general public as well. It was intended for general public as well because a paradigm shift should take place in terms of how we view, nurture, and sustain the relationship between His Holiness and the Tibetan people, that is if we are serious about serving Him well. Also, we don’t want to be known as Kool-Aid drinkers.

    “Well, as long as he is guided by some highly talented experts, it is ok, as most leaders do so.” I couldn’t agree more with this statement of yours. But the point is, we do not have experts in our community whose researches are overseen and funded by His Holiness in the area of global warming. We cannot be sure of the objectivity of the study someone has conducted, which is vital for one to know before supporting the results of such studies. That is why I suggested that His Holiness should not poke His nose into a topic that is alien to Him to start with. Further, I wanted Him to just understand that the topic of global warming is a highly political issue. Someone should tell Him all these things.

    When His Holiness makes statements on global warming, I just get a feeling that He is being used by some special interest groups. Your Holiness should learn to say no, when you should say no. Most importantly, don’t try to be an expert in a topic that you are not lest you run the risk of looking like a jokester. Just understand that people in the West are not like that of Tibetans in terms of following someone blindly. You will not be able to get away with just about saying anything you want if you do not have sufficient and credible data to back up your claim/s.

  81. NewgenerationTB | January 11th, 2012 | 7:12 pm

    @Saysruk:Global warming is a politicized issue between countries, but that does not mean it is not existed or someone invented it. Global warming is not felt by people in big cities who has no contact with nature. As far as His Holiness is concerned, the credible evidence is the fast melting of Himalyan glaciers and its impact on nomads. Those rate of melting glacier in the himalays are well recorded and people who live there with animals feel the changes to the environment. Similarly, evironmental changes on Tibetan plateau is also a highly politicized issue between Tibetans and Chinese state. This does not mean it is not existed, the fact is it does exist and affect real people in real times. To those who live far away and never have to see and feel the impact, this is like an invented and cooked up stories for a pure political agenda of Tibet. I am not defending His Holiness is correct or not on this issue, the issue is he has been talking about environmental damage in Tibet even before the notion of global warming is in the media. The deforestation and logging in Tibet, results in huge flooding and disrupted rain cycle in China and Tibetan areas, intensive mining and dumping nuclear waste also contributed to the bad environment. Therefore, if I am not wrong, His Holiness was on record saying, “political solution, we can wait 10 or 20 years, but we cannot wait for environmental destruction”. It is scientifically recorded and documented that icebergs on the two poles of the earth are melting for whatever reason or whoever responsible it is. The third pole, the himalayas are also drying up and it is recorded. So, now the question is who is using this piece of information and trying to achieve own self-interest or for greater purpose.

    NG

  82. daveno | January 11th, 2012 | 8:33 pm

    I dont live close by His holiness nor do i know what His holiness knows on various complex issues and collected data on HH’s knowledge.So, i will not assume and come to the conclusion that he does not have knowledge on these complex subjects.And it would be my own moronic or narcotic infused brain’s fault to assume on someone’s knowledge without knowing that someone closely or without any data to support my view or without myself being perfectly knowledgeable on these subjects.

  83. Young Punk | January 12th, 2012 | 1:47 am

    NewgenerationTB – what da fuck you going on on bout? Give it a break, u giving us new generation a bad name not to mention a spliting headache!

  84. Tsering Dorjee | January 12th, 2012 | 2:15 am

    newgeneration, in the political sphere, has Dalai Lama made any mistake in his decades of leadership? Can you name some for us.

  85. Rewalsar | January 12th, 2012 | 3:44 am

    #79
    Dadday said that they are unpredictable creature.
    He suggests: Beware of them! “Uncontrolled flat tongue could cause head getting into trouble!”.
    Is that a thing of the past or is it still valid?

    #80
    True!

  86. Rewalsar | January 12th, 2012 | 3:46 am

    #80
    True!

  87. daveno | January 12th, 2012 | 9:53 am

    Thank you NewgenTB.With so many junk floating, i couldn’t remember all that i need to remember.

    Rewalsar, let the past rest in peace but remember the signs of resurrection.

  88. Darig Thokmay | January 12th, 2012 | 11:41 am

    In political struggle, the act of Violence or Non-violence is not judged by the ideology of Buddhism but judged with the over all circumstance of political phenomena.

    Please don’t mix every issues in one pot. But, of course, we can judge this act from the Buddhist point of views. However, it is not the conclusion of this act.

  89. tsering topgyal | January 12th, 2012 | 2:20 pm

    I really do not care if the act of self immolation is acceptable in our version of Buddhism ! All I have seen are acts of great patriotism.

    These brave souls have made the ultimate sacrifice and have shown the world and taught us that the Tibetan will is strong and that it is worth dying for freedom.

    newgenerationTB …As for the correction on my spelling of Mangtso…does it really matter !!!! does anyone care if its mangzo,mangoes or mangtso! stop counting the pennies when there are dollars everywhere.

  90. PASANG | January 12th, 2012 | 3:52 pm

    why the big deal about whether its against buddhism or not? and whose version of buddhism we talking about? as far as i know buddha always said that we have to think for ourselves. Aside from the core beliefs of buddhism which i hope we all know, who is to judge whether act of self immolation or being gay is against buddhism or not? Yes, buddhism talk a lot about the preciousness of human life but that is to drive home the point that only as humans we have the potential to attain enlightenment. i dont think it means that we have to protect and preserve our bodies at all cost. these people were definetly brave and if they were crystal clear and at peace with what they were doing maybe they will have a better rebirth than many of us with unfinished busineeses.

  91. newgenerationtb | January 12th, 2012 | 4:41 pm

    @Tsering Dorjee: It depends whom you ask the question and what you actually meant by the question itself.

    As far as I am concerned, No he did not. This is not because I have faith in him. I took my faith out and I reason with fact. I assume your accussations and allegations are the symbolism and manifestation of rangzen talkers. I reason it as follows:

    1. He gave up rangzen, yes it is true. Was Tibet as we envision in exile independent before 1949? Yes and No. Yes, the independent part of the historical Tibet was 1/3 of the actual Tibetan landmass of 2.3 million square kms. No, 2/3rd of the landmass and inhabitants are outside the legitimate and juristic control of independent Tibetan government.

    2. Dalai Lama himself born in a place which is outside the legitimate political control of his predeccessor. When he was first escorted to Lahsa, he had to get permission from the local Chinese warlord. If it was part of the independent Tibetan, there is no need for asking permission traveling within one’s own country.

    3. The 17 point agreement on May 23, 1951, is between Tibetan government and Chinese government (under duress of course) only covers areas under the control of Lhasa government.
    4.Rangzen talkers based their arguments on history, specifically based on maps, shakapas’ passport, Tibtan paper money, shimla agreement, and so forth. But all these arguments and historical facts do not cover the entire Tibetan landmass and its people. It covers part of the historical Tibet.

    5.Indian Government recognizes Tibet Autonomous region as integral part of China and its political stance is, NO POLITICAL ACTIVITY DEEMED ANTI-CHINA is permissible, at least on paper and policy. In such a case, even declaring rangzen on Indian soil a viable option? We as common people, we only can make own on decision based on what we hear, but we dont have a complete picture of behind the scene agreement between CTA, HHDL, and Indian government. Therefore, I do not think that responsibility of CTA and HHDL is not as easy as personal decision of where to go or where to eat or what to say and where?

    Therefore, for the necessary need of entire Tibet as during the period of Tibetan tsenpos, included every regions and every people of ethnic Tibetan decent. Dalai Lama’s vision and proposal, satisfies it all. Rangzen wallas argument do not represent Tibet and its people in entirety. It is mere an emotional outburst and imagined version which confuse facts and fiction. So, what is the future then? Rangzen, rangwang, middle-way, or what? Who knows? It will depend on many factors. For now, his proposal is more reasonable than all other proposals.

    NG

  92. Chinese Engineer | January 12th, 2012 | 6:00 pm

    “has Dalai Lama made any mistake in his decades of leadership? ”

    is this a joke?

    Here is one: not accepting Deng Xiao Ping’s olive branch back in the 80′s. Worked out great for the Chinese, though. (I have read some very interesting stuff on this one)

    Or maybe signing the 17 point agreement and then losing control over the Lhasa population.

    Or maybe not doing jack shit for the last 30 years. Yeah, Richard Gere loves you, so what? Is he gonna storm Beijing for you?

  93. Dawa | January 13th, 2012 | 12:10 am

    CE:

    Being wary of lizard eyed Deng Shiaping is one of the several right things done.

    Richard Gere is one of the few things that show there is hope for humanity.

    You on the other hand can not hold light to the stuff clinging to Richard Gere shoe sole.

  94. Dawa | January 13th, 2012 | 12:11 am

    dammit. Now I offended the lizards.

  95. tsering dorjee | January 13th, 2012 | 4:30 am

    newgenerationtb:…maybe the supreme title is getting in the way of your ‘critical’ thinking. You are coming out more bias than most people here. Think critically, my friend.

  96. Tshering dorjee | January 13th, 2012 | 7:43 am

    JN should immolate himself, that would be the best method to gain Tibetan issue amidst worldwide….

    if you don’t have enough courage to immolate yourself…just set your fingers fire…even if it’s only one…
    we all know that you like people have much more to preach…just like Tenzin Tsundue…even the discourse is uncorrect we would forgive u…
    because we consider you people like a child…

    a child that mere know cry when he is hungry…

  97. PASANG | January 13th, 2012 | 10:26 am

    Tshering dorjee @96, what you ranting about? whats your problem man? who do you mean by “we” ? bhuchung and lodi gyari chamchas?

  98. newgenerationtb | January 13th, 2012 | 4:07 pm

    @TseringD: You just read through the background of Middleway (My understanding of its context). I did not see any point just dwelling on indepdence before 1959 version of history, because it just does not sense. Therefore, middleway might have comprised, but it just inclusive of every ethnic Tibetans in people’s republic of China, that is important. Can you provide some critical analysis of my thinking and point out of historical mistake I made in my writing or you are just trying to save you ass and face?

    NG

  99. newgenerationtb | January 13th, 2012 | 4:13 pm

    I think I am more unbaised than anyone here on this forum. Most of people here think that all three provinces of Tibet are united before 1959 and under the rule of previous Dalai Lama and various regents. But the fact of the matter is not that case…….I dont see where I am biased. I did not say China is right for invading a resisting communities nor I endorse mistaken version of Rangzen talkers. Where is biase? You meant I advocate DL’s position? Well, if say so…then be it because it makes more sense to me taking into considerations of history, culture, exile condition, geopolitics, the passion of displaced Tibetans and so forth. I just agreed with the position for now. But I am not convincing anyone on this position because it can be changed any times….however you cannot change the fact Gangden Podrang ruled only 3/1rd of actual Tibetan landmass and 2/3rd of its ethnic Tibetans.

    Cheers boy….Dont let emotions blur your mental vision.

    NG

  100. Chinese Engineer | January 13th, 2012 | 6:14 pm

    “Being wary of lizard eyed Deng Shiaping is one of the several right things done.”

    1) it’s Deng XIAO Ping
    2) you have once again burnished your credential for exotic stupidity. A legitimate presence inside Tibet for The Dalai Lama would have been nothing short of a paradigm shift for the Tibetan independence movement. Once you have a recognized legal institution in place, everything else becomes much easier. Just look at Hong Kong today with their group of almost rabid anti-mainland personalities. They’re still walking around.

    Before you comment on modern Chinese development and politics again, I would recommend several books to you, starting with “Deng Xiao Ping and the Transformation of China”, followed by “On China”. But unfortunately you’re an illiterate cunt who has no intention of educating yourself and no ability to better the lives of these Tibetans living in China, so you can just keep on being worthless; you deserve no less.

    With the Utmost Contempt
    Chinese Engineer

  101. Chinese Engineer | January 13th, 2012 | 6:18 pm

    newgenerationtb

    What makes you think Tibet was independent back in the 30′s? What’s your take away of the Simla Accord? My reading resulted in the opposite conclusion.

  102. dorji | January 13th, 2012 | 7:13 pm

    NGT:
    as much as i like most of your posts, allow me to ask you: what make you think others here don t know that many places in greater Tibet werent practically ruled by Lhasa? To me it is knowledge since i was a child that parts of Kham and Amdo were under protectorate of some chinese warlords. And i m no exceptions..
    And allow me to ask: so what? China was ruled by mongols, parts of it by europeans, and japanese at time. Nonetheless chinks are a nation, albeit a sad one. A nation is a homogeneous cultural group relative to other nations, borders beeing always a bit blurry but in case of Tibet quite clear. Our tibetan nation is older than any european nation. And probably older than china. Since all asians descend from mongols, and tibetans are the nearest to that origin.

    To the cockroach:
    1)it s Deng xiao PONG. or shao pong for the intimates.
    2)steroids outbursts and insult are NOT helping for tiny penis frustration mate. Neither is posting here everyday to compensate.
    Do you want us to talk about Nanjing massacres and rapes with the same delight and sadistic vibe that u have? shall we? could be ur mom there huh. Get a low profile and stop with ur construed attitude before i remind u the painful taste of what ur girls experienced there with a “chinese engineer” attitude . Just so i pollute ur mind before sleeping. beware, i m very talented at that.

  103. daveno | January 13th, 2012 | 7:17 pm

    I am not impressed with the CCP intellegence when it made the mistake of occupying the land of Tibet.They have followed the rotten stragety of ancient dumb-ass’king of villagers’ blindly and still believe in their superiority of their numb-ass cockroaches brain.

  104. Tsering Dorjee | January 13th, 2012 | 7:45 pm

    newgenerationtb..when someone views everything H.H from the rosy religious glasses, one will find one can make a case for anything under earth. There is a reason why there is a word supreme leader used in the constitution because that is exactly how we view him – including you. As such, there can be no false moves or any errors made and if something appears blatantly obvious, then of course it was made on purpose (zarpa?). Look deeper my friend, there are plenty of bad moves made. But in all honesty, H.H overall total performance is great, in my opinion. No question about that. It is just that I find your willingness to denigrate others on the forum for not having critical thinking while being oblivious to your own lack of it quite amusing. hehe

    Also, somebody also mentioned above me, just becuase the area was controlled by some warlord doesn’t mean Tibet seceded those areas. I would like for you to provide me the documents when those areas were seceded like we did with arunachal pradesh.

    Chinese Spy: shut up dude! Noone is talking to you, moron.

    @other tsering dorjee:..why you asking Jamyang Norbu to self immolate? He never asked anybody to commit suicide.

  105. daveno | January 13th, 2012 | 9:19 pm

    Chinese Engineer’s love for tibetan people is obvious. Welcome home CE, you deserve some respect as a fellow human.

  106. newgenerationtb | January 13th, 2012 | 10:00 pm

    @tseringDorjee: ca you illustrate about my “religious glass” with lucid explanations? Are you making an accussation because you need to make one in order to look yourself good or are making it because you disagreed CTA proposal? I actually made my reasoning known without just throwingaccusations around.

    NG

  107. Chinese Engineer | January 13th, 2012 | 11:12 pm

    “And allow me to ask: so what?”

    So you’re a dumbass. Let me break this down for you, shit-for-brain.

    “China was ruled by mongols” – Correct. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by the Mongols. But then they moved their capital to Beijing and ruled over their Chinese subjects, and in time, became Chinese themselves.

    “parts of it by europeans, and japanese at time.” – the correct term is extraterritoriality, or territorial concessions. Most of the foreign concessions were signed during the late Qing Dynasty. And here is where you, in your infinite stupidity, fail to realize the profound difference between a unilateral declaration of sovereignty and bilateral treaty between two recognized nations. The concessions were part of a TREATY. Let’s not mention the fact that the concessions were quite small when compared to the total land mass of the Qing Dynasty, and are technically still Chinese territory.

    “Since all asians descend from mongols”

    where did you read this garbage?

    “Do you want us to talk about Nanjing massacres and rapes with the same delight and sadistic vibe that u have? shall we? could be ur mom there huh.”

    By delight and sadistic vibe, you mean my relatively detached academic curiosity? If anything, it’s the young Tibetans here who are so very enthused about the possibility of major catastrophes befalling the Chinese population. So not only are you deficient in intelligence, you’re also quite a bit short on human decency.

  108. Chinese Engineer | January 13th, 2012 | 11:31 pm

    “I am not impressed with the CCP intellegence when it made the mistake of occupying the land of Tibet.”

    What are you not impressed about? They have Tibet. They’re extracting natural resources and holds a strategic advantage over the Indians due to Tibet’s elevation advantage. They control the source of almost all major rivers flowing into East Asia. What do you guys have?

    Despite my repeating the paramount strategic values of Tibet to China here on this blog (many time), no one really gets it. Perhaps this is a general indicator of the readership’s intelligence.

    “still believe in their superiority of their numb-ass cockroaches brain.”

    You know son, ignorance isn’t exactly bliss when most people know far more than you. I’m curious, do you like to celebrate stupidity? Because whenever I read your carpings, I roll my eyes almost immediately. China has its problems. In fact, many serious ones. But a lack of talent is not one of them. You are welcome to think of the Chinese as an inferior people. You are, after all, entitled to your opinions, and certainly your stupidity.

  109. tsering dorjee | January 14th, 2012 | 12:04 am

    newgenerate. I dont’ need to make one unless you can tell us at least a couple of misteps H.H has taken in the almost 50 plus leadership. Are you seriously going to stand there and tell me there are no missteps? The reason why I want you to come up with it so that it would be a pure analysis on your part instead of me putting a position there which will in turn make you defend that position.

    Didn’t Mongolia and Tibet signed a mutual treaty?

  110. tsering dorjee | January 14th, 2012 | 12:05 am

    edit** I meant more than 50 years.

  111. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 12:08 am

    “Didn’t Mongolia and Tibet signed a mutual treaty?”

    Yes they did. in 1913. That’s also around the time when Tibet unilaterally declared its independence. And this is where history becomes very interesting.

  112. newgenerationtb | January 14th, 2012 | 2:07 am

    Yea…true….but still the Definition of Tibet in the treaty does by no. Means represent entire amdo and major part of kham. Regarding your accussation, I still consider someone hides behind the veil of “religious glass”. You seem to devoid of knowledge about many things, go and upgrade your knowledge…..

    NG

  113. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 6:10 am

    CHINESE ENGINEER,
    don’t worry about what tibetans think and do, as i have looked at the history of china, they don’t have good the track records of smartness either.
    specially, when you make statement like this,
    “The Yuan Dynasty was founded by the Mongols. But then they moved their capital to Beijing and ruled over their Chinese subjects, and in time, became Chinese themselves”

    Japanese became also chinese after they ruled china in 1930s?

  114. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 6:33 am

    ““China was ruled by mongols” – Correct. The Yuan Dynasty was founded by the Mongols. But then they moved their capital to Beijing and ruled over their Chinese subjects, and in time, became Chinese themselves. ”

    Yea they were sooo chinese (u mean because they raped chinese right) that your Ming had to kick them out.

    ““Since all asians descend from mongols”

    where did you read this garbage? ”

    Shit, u never heard about Darwin, so here is a scoop: asians didnt pop up simultaneously in different regions out of grass. The origin is unique, and mongoloid in anthropological terms.
    Oh..and the first time i heard that was thru one of the most prominent asian anthropologist in the world (director of research, oxbridge educated, associate professor in japan, france, england). but as high as the reference is, it s still easy for a scientifical mind to figure out alone. And btw, I also have a degree in ethnology myself beside engineering, law, and economics. yes “son”.

    “By delight and sadistic vibe, you mean my relatively detached academic curiosity? ”

    joker. u are all… but detached (clearly nevrotic and seeking unconsciously some narcissic satisfaction in teasing people who want to get free from the oppression of your regime. This is pathetic, phallus problem as mentionned earlier).

    Treaties are not the truth. THey are often the mere reflection of a forced and military situation. The thing that lasts longer than treaties and are more legitimate than a signature done with a gun on ur temple is a NATION. If you guys respect treaties so much, then let s respect the first one written in chinese and tibetan who establish the borders of the 2 empires (including whole kham and amdo in Tibet). you know which one i m talking about..
    Today ‘s nation of Tibet is still the same as in the 7th century. it includes the same people. remarkable consistency of our nation. more than any other actually. Tibet is the school case of what a nation is.

  115. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 7:12 am

    and thats where your chinese problem is: you lied, abuse and lie, on top of other lies again, in your greedy attempt to hide and destruct a nation that is so old, so relatively homogeneous in culture and beliefs. That is where the problem is for you. We are a fucking strong nation and all the low and pathetic tries you make in violence, lies and bate can and WILL NOT undermine this. You guys are only beginning to assess and understand this. remember the jews cockroach, 3500 years on they are strong and pharaos are long gone. Spirit is everything.

  116. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 11:20 am

    “Japanese became also chinese after they ruled china in 1930s?”

    In your attempt to sound smart, you neglected one key point: Japan didn’t win the (2nd) Sino-Japanese war. They invaded, but never ruled nor subjugated China.

    Try again, moron.

  117. daveno | January 14th, 2012 | 11:41 am

    //What are you not impressed about? They have Tibet. They’re extracting natural resources and holds a strategic advantage over the Indians due to Tibet’s elevation advantage. They control the source of almost all major rivers flowing into East Asia. What do you guys have?

    Despite my repeating the paramount strategic values of Tibet to China here on this blog (many time), no one really gets it. Perhaps this is a general indicator of the readership’s intelligence”
    In these lies your intelligence.you are still in 19th century group of nimrons.but i must say, you did learned well on what others did in the PAST.
    i certainly dont think chinese are inferior.bBt does not include CCP leadership nimron in my list of who to watch for.

  118. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 12:02 pm

    Japanese ruled some parts of China effectively for almost half century. Japanese built roads, hospitals and schools. Because of their enlightened rules and civilized manners, thousands Chinese students went to Japan to study Japanese, science and technologies; basically, the most scientific words that chinese use today came from Japanese. When the Manchus were killing Chinese like rats, it was Japanese who saved their master Sun Yat-sen from Manchus. In fact, many Chinese women throw themselves at Japanese and many became fathers So, scientifically, there are more chance that chinese (CHINESE ENGINEER might be a son of Japanese ) are the descendent of Japanese than Tibetans are Chinese!

    by the same token, chinese never ruled and subjugated Tibet, is called occupation.

  119. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 12:05 pm

    “Yea they were sooo chinese (u mean because they raped chinese right) that your Ming had to kick them out.”

    No, more like after 100 years the other Khans would not recognize the authority of the Yuan because they were considered too Chinese. But whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

    “Shit, u never heard about Darwin, so here is a scoop: asians didnt pop up simultaneously in different regions out of grass. The origin is unique, and mongoloid in anthropological terms.
    Oh..and the first time i heard that was thru one of the most prominent asian anthropologist in the world (director of research, oxbridge educated, associate professor in japan, france, england). but as high as the reference is, it s still easy for a scientifical mind to figure out alone.”

    So instead of giving me a source or a scientific explanation, which you obviously are not capable of doing (due to your overwhelming lack of education and stupidity), you result to shoddy innuendos and chest thumping.

    Allow me to knock some sense into your empty skull: mitochondrial DNA sampling in Tibet has produced findings that point to migration of northern Chinese settlers INTO Tibet in the Neolithic period.

    “And btw, I also have a degree in ethnology myself beside engineering, law, and economics.”

    Then I suppose you spent quite a bit of money and have nothing to show for it. Of course it’s much more likely that the only academic credential you possess is in Internet Bullshit.

    “clearly nevrotic and seeking unconsciously some narcissic satisfaction in teasing people who want to get free from the oppression of your regime.”

    Please replace “teasing people who want to get free from the oppression of your regime” to “ill educated retards who hold dire misconceptions regarding the topic they so fervently discuss”, and you are much closer to the truth.

    Regardless, well played, you worthless fuck.

    “Treaties are not the truth. (followed by more pseudo-intellectual garbage”

    I guess the whole not very subtle reference to de facto statehood just flew over you head, heh?

    “We are a fucking strong nation and all the low and pathetic tries you make in violence, lies and bate can and WILL NOT undermine this.”

    What? I really don’t know what to make of this except that you are probably tripping on LSD.

    “Spirit is everything.”

    Keep thinking that.

    Anyway, your idiotic rant was extra entertaining today. Perhaps I should donate my 3 RMB to the Free Tibet Movement.

  120. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 12:24 pm

    “Japanese ruled some parts of China effectively for almost half century. ”

    Taiwan and the puppet state of Manchukuo to be exact. Both were returned to China after Japan lost the war.

    “When the Manchus were killing Chinese like rats, it was Japanese who saved their master Sun Yat-sen from Manchus.”

    Wrong.

    “there are more chance that chinese are the descendent of Japanese than Tibetans are Chinese!”

    Wrong. And you’re a fucking retard.

    “by the same token, chinese never ruled and subjugated Tibet, is called occupation.”

    By what token? The 17 point agreement was signed, granted it was repudiated by both parties. PAP operates in Tibet. Tibet is an internationally recognized part of China. No government recognizes the legitimacy of the TGIE.

    If this is not direct rule and subjugation, what is?

    If you don’t have anything intelligent to say, shut the fuck up.

  121. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 12:27 pm

    “No, more like after 100 years the other Khans would not recognize the authority of the Yuan because they were considered too Chinese”

    Are you talking about Khans like Altan Khan? chinese should have thanked 3th Dalai lama for saving Chinese, otherwise, you might be speaking Mongolian instead of Chinese.

  122. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 12:31 pm

    when japanese came into nanjing they were thinking “these fucktards chinese”, “illiterate cunts”. then they raped chinese girls, children adults, grandmas and gang raping them. then when they were done, they would take bamboo sticks, or bayonnettes from their riffle and plant them in the girl or woman s vagina s or tummy so that they d die in agony. looking at them as “fucking retards” who lost the game/war, and had to “deal with it” to quote Chinese Engineer words.
    every day thousands of chinese were experiencing that. Fathers would witness their daughters and wifes and mothers beeing raped, laughed at, and then killed, before beeing killed themselves. This happened to hundreds of thousands of chinese, if not millions taking all outside nanjing.
    THen again, this happened for centuries with the mongols incursions in china.
    Ironically, the worse have been chinese themselves on each other, killing 80 millions of their kinds since cpp took over. people would eat each other corpses and each other ‘s dead children during great leap forward. A tradition that is still respected with the human foetus soups eaten every seconds in china today.
    But even before, since the inception of china, it has always been extreme violence among chinese. The very foundation of china, with chi shi huang di, was marked by mass murders, of chilren and adults.
    The history of china explains why we tibetans face the biggest psychopaths as a nation. We need to understand that they are not capable of compassion, that they only understand animal (insect) survival instincts. And that we have to teach them everything: history, moral, gratitude (how many of your chink mamma s lives did we save by converting mongols to tibetan buddhism?), and peace.
    Natural selection in china as put forward psychopath brains as an asset. Luckily some brave and intelligent chinks are there still (Ai Wei Wei, Hu Jia etc).
    Let us remember that we face mental, moral and physically(pigmee phallus) handicapped aggresors, whose only force is their number.

  123. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 12:37 pm

    CHINESE ENGINEER ,
    of course, according to some Chinese, everything is retarded. their own parents and teachers were retarded too, remember? not a long ago, chinese had to beat up their own parents and teachers under the name of revolution. Come on, tell us,who is your real father? a Chinese or Japanese?

  124. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 12:49 pm

    lol Ugen. good point

  125. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 12:57 pm

    Is that the best you can do dorji?

    I’m not impressed.

    By the way, I reserve my contempt for worthless fucks like you, and never advocate mass suffering of the Tibetan population itself. You, on the other hand, don’t seem to mind dragging whatever you want through the mud to make a worthless point.

  126. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 12:57 pm

    Now CE i am incredibly amazed by your fantasies that tibetans would derive genetically from chinese…although i can understand the wish: we are stronger, much more attractive and well hung..so that we have to actually turned down women. Genetics is a bitch, but can t do much about it.

  127. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 12:59 pm

    no it s not the best lol. very little is sufficient to expose you naked.

  128. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 1:12 pm

    http://www.pnas.org/content/106/50/21230.full

    please, educate yourself.

  129. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 1:18 pm

    u have four times less education than me (my biggest and most precious education being Dharma), ur brain is fucked up, and u think i ll click on ur fucking link exposing myself to a virus?? chink, go see a shrink. with ur fucked up cultural inheritage u need a lifelong cure.

  130. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 1:23 pm

    and thus, ignorance is preserved.

  131. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 1:29 pm

    u are naked chink. and i m wondering by the sight of yours if u re not a woman after all. everything fall in place.

  132. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 1:42 pm

    CHINESE ENGINEER,
    before opening ur mouth again, read this first.
    http://genome.cshlp.org/content/14/10a/1832.long

  133. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 1:56 pm

    listen buddy. ur genetics stuff is BS. how can a tall red faced tibetan derive from the likes of…Jiang Zemming? are u telling me i derive from an ugly frog???
    I know my cousins are mongols and that chinks are the ugly duck of our mongolian/central asian ancestors. Tibetans kept same lifestyle, and somehow appearance.
    unfortunately we still share 99,9 percent of our dna with you (and all other humans btw).
    which mean 0.1% can mean a lot.

  134. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 2:02 pm

    of inches.

  135. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 2:11 pm

    CHINESE ENGINEER,
    importantly, after sleeping with several chinese, I was told “tibetan men are different from Chinese”. on average, we have big ones than chinese, I was told!

  136. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 2:14 pm

    “In summary, Japan could have received several northern and southern Asian maternal inputs since Paleolithic times, with notable northern Asian immigrations through Korea in the late Neolithic and more specific gene flows from western Asia, Siberia, and southern islands. ”

    is that supposed to be my takeaway for that article, ugen? I’m guessing you didn’t even read your own reference.

  137. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 2:20 pm

    Ugen, be sure to put a hat down there when u do that!! u dont want a Jiang Zemming faced son!

  138. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 2:26 pm

    CHINESE ENGINEER,
    as i told you, you can not think logically; reasons and rationality do not apply to you. according to your logic,

    “Allow me to knock some sense into your empty skull: mitochondrial DNA sampling in Tibet has produced findings that point to migration of northern Chinese settlers INTO Tibet in the Neolithic period”

    and “In summary, Japan could have received several northern and southern Asian maternal inputs since Paleolithic times, with notable northern Asian immigrations through Korea in the late Neolithic and more specific gene flows from western Asia, Siberia, and southern islands”

    So are you suggesting that both Tibetans and Japanese are the descendants of chinese?
    Then, Japanese invasion to China in 1930s must be the unification or the liberation?

  139. Chinese Engineer | January 14th, 2012 | 3:45 pm

    wow ugen, you are one stupid cunt.

  140. Ugen | January 14th, 2012 | 6:14 pm

    As I told you before, you can’t think straight. you see, you think men are women too. otherwise, I am a man therefore i can be not be “one stupid cunt”as you have suggested.

    I think you must be sexually frustrated like other chinese men. No wonder chinese ladies are so crazy about tibetan men!

  141. dorji | January 14th, 2012 | 9:21 pm

    Ugen, u just got insulted by a girl…poor u!
    this chink is a fucking transsexual, a woman with a little noodle dick the size of a rice corn.

    Now let talk men in betweens. as i said earlier let all go back. let us have a real impact. what do u say? am i wrong?

  142. Tshering dorjee | January 15th, 2012 | 1:47 am

    don’t put rubbishes here….
    be more reasonable like me hah
    Okay?

  143. Tshering dorjee | January 15th, 2012 | 1:49 am

    Just keep quiet if there is nothing left to talk about..
    I am insisting it

  144. dorji | January 15th, 2012 | 5:00 am

    got carried away. but “fucktards” “illiterate cunts” and co does not call for respectful answer.

  145. Rewalsar | January 15th, 2012 | 1:28 pm

    #79
    …Daddy continued, “well, those guys were much too smart to be comparable to any kind of ordinary individual.”
    “According to them” he said, “foods are not for all mouths and shows are not for all eyes”. THE END OF DADDAY’S ANSWERS!

  146. Dawa | January 15th, 2012 | 9:41 pm

    CE: “Cunt”? Really? I think the way you deal with rest of humanity and your crooked sense of how the world should function merits you the title of Mother of all Cunts.
    And as for your “A legitimate presence inside Tibet for The Dalai Lama would have been nothing short of a paradigm shift for the Tibetan independence movement…” So that China can dispatch him like the way they did with the Panchen Lama once they began to be bothered by the change in his tune?
    You cannot be serious that Beijing will ever treat Tibetans the same they treat people of Hong Kong. Either you are very naive or very delusional.
    Calling me illiterate doesn’t cure you of your half baked rationalizing nature and your ignorant brutish ways.

  147. Dorji | January 16th, 2012 | 4:58 am

    to close the question of origins with a paper also synthetizing past studies:
    “In this study, our phylogenetic analyses of the population samples
    revealed that the populations in Tibet are quite similar to each other
    and different from the other East Asians and even far from the South
    Asians genetically (Figures 2 and 3)(…)The origin of Tibetans is widely debated. Previous genetic studies
    using classic markers,78 Y chromosome single-nucleotide polymorphism
    (SNP) and Y-STR,5 and mitochondrial DNA6 had depicted that
    Tibetans were clustered along with Northeast Asian group including
    Koreans, Japanese and Mongolians, thereby suggesting a North Asian
    origin. However, another report using Y-chromosome biallelic markers
    argued for the peopling of Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan by East
    Asians from the upper Yellow River region in China.(latter being chinese reference of course!) the studies suggested that the high frequency of the Y Alu insertion (YAP)
    in the Tibetan population signals a significant genetic contribution
    from Central Asia.8 Our result of NJ tree showed that Tibetan
    populations formed a distinctive cluster in the range of East Asians,
    not close to the Northeast or Southeast Asians but populations located
    closely beside the Tibetan Plateau; for example, Salar, Bai and Drung.
    However, the MDS plot showed that the Tibetans were quite close to
    the Altaic populations from North Asia, consistent with some of the
    previous studies.”

    http://humpopgenfudan.cn/p/A/A17.pdf

  148. dorji | January 16th, 2012 | 2:32 pm

    interestingly enough, the study, which is the most comprehensive in method, and number of genes used, shows that beside tibetans being to the closest related to mongols and japanese, shows a remarkable homogeneity among amdowas, khampas and south tibetans including bhutanese, among each other. So that tibetans are actually very close to each other despite regional remoteness.

  149. Dawa | January 16th, 2012 | 4:46 pm

    To whom it may concern:

    If you want your point understood by others make it precise. If you want your cuss words to be effective, use them sparingly.

  150. dorji | January 17th, 2012 | 1:14 am

    More sad news from Ngaba Lhadon…VIA TibetanCommunity InBritain…..”Today, 7:30 am GMT, 14 Jan 2012, I received news from Ngaba from a friend with family in Ngaba that there is currently a peaceful demonstration against the oppressive Chinese government. Chinese security forces have SHOT at demonstrators and large number have been KILLED, claims the report.
    Please, Please write to your MPs, Prime ministers and government, and media organisations to spread the message and ask them to condemn the Chinese policy in Tibet. Thank you, Boe Gyal lo!”……

  151. TSHERING DORJE | January 17th, 2012 | 12:45 pm

    Truly These monks got COURAGE AND are true PATRIOTS. and oh yes Jamyang Laks you got integrity. thanks to you.

  152. dorji | January 17th, 2012 | 2:09 pm

    most tibetans IN Tibet have courage. They are the ones. Not us.

  153. Adam | January 17th, 2012 | 11:31 pm

    Thank you, Jamyang-la. I always look forward to reading your blog. With this post, you hit the nail on the head (as usual). Buddha taught: “Just as gold is burnt, cut and rubbed, examine my words carefully and do not accept them simply out of respect.” – a teaching more needed now than ever, as oppressors and appeasers opportunistically attempt to combine self-immolations and Buddhism to justify their ridiculousnesses. For me, the jataka (tiger) and avadana (ship) stories first came to mind on this issue too. Please keep up your great work. Thanks again!

  154. tsering dorjee | January 18th, 2012 | 4:12 am

    fuck all the mutherfucking chinese!@!#!#

  155. old monk | January 25th, 2012 | 10:33 am

    how date that chap- bhuchung k tsering- to declare tibetans were INDULGING in self-immolation, as if the act is a pursuit of hedonistic pleasure! such a shame.
    either he’s traitor, or a very dim-witted fellow with minimal english language knowledge.

  156. AGUTONPA | January 25th, 2012 | 11:19 pm

    For over four decades, some Tibetans in the government-in-exile used to say, Tibetans cannot sacrifice their live– if only!

    Now the kudrags can see: if the six million Tibetans can see the end goal, there are Tibetan monks, nuns and laymen who can and will sacrifice their most treasured possession for others.

    These Tibetans have made a statement: what is and what should BE OUR RESPONSE?

    Over six decades of Chinese rule, we know: CHINESE MAY MAKE GOOD SERVANTS BUT THEY WILL BE EVIL MASTERS.

  157. AGUTONPA | January 25th, 2012 | 11:29 pm

    Tibet, Tibetan Government and Tibetan Government in exile were–in modern language–highly recognized brand names.

    Anyone who googled or launched an internet search were and should rightly be directed to a site that honored Tibetan history and the aspiration of the six million Tibetans living in their millenial old ancestral homes.

    Someone, somehow and without a plebiscite or referrandum trashed all that brand recognition. Six million dollars? Not even six billion dollars can buy a fraction of the recognition or sense or right and wrong that “Tibetan Government in Exile” can provide freely.

    Why? Y? Y!

  158. tenzin | January 26th, 2012 | 2:38 am

    Laash jalne ki bu aa rahi hai

    Jo mashaal dilon mein jalayi thi pelhe
    Jo naara aazadi ka lagayi thi pehle
    Kyun bujha diya woh aag
    Kyun mita diya woh shor
    Kyun andhkar ke sannate mein humko jala diya

    Laash jalne ki bu aa rahi hai
    Dil ke zakhmo ko sulga rahi hai
    Toote armano ke jalte hue khwab
    Kya tumhe bhi nazar aa rahi hai
    Aise khamosh kyun chal rahe ho
    Jhukke auron mein kyun dhal rahe ho

    Ab toh lehra do phir se woh naara
    Apni kashti ko kar do kinara
    Der hone na dena O daata
    Ke na jal jaaye sabhi besahara

  159. old monk | January 26th, 2012 | 10:01 am

    can JN write a proper, full article condemning bhuchung k tsering’s article about tibetans ‘ indulging in self-immolations? This is very damaging in the face of self-less sacrifices made by our brethrens.

  160. PASANG | January 26th, 2012 | 2:11 pm

    i thnk Lobsang Sangay our Kalon Tripa should come out with a statement regretting the utterances of the ICT camp people. Jamyang Norbu did his bit already.

  161. tashi7 | January 26th, 2012 | 10:54 pm

    Highly respected SCholar of tibetan diaspora Jamyang Norbu la.Thank you so much for your article on self-immolation in tibet.

  162. tashi7 | January 26th, 2012 | 10:58 pm

    Its amazing whether its buddhist self-immolators in vietnam or in Tibet or in india; they sacrificed their precious human lives so that the remaining millions of oppressed citizen can have basic human rights with the help of the truth loving citizen of the world.

  163. daveno | January 27th, 2012 | 8:54 am

    For the upcoming nyeshu gu -lue Torma..i am attaching HU and WEN picture on the Lue torma to ward them off. Sure will publish those picture on the facebook and twitter.

  164. Chinese Engineer | January 27th, 2012 | 11:26 pm

    oh Daveno, you so silly.

    (by the way, since CCP is about the undergo a leadership transition, you might want to reconsider your subjects)

  165. Ugen | January 28th, 2012 | 7:20 am

    CHINESE ENGINEER,
    nice try! , chinese leaders are always leaders even after their death, they are still dear leaders. jut several days ago, the ccp announced that they were sending a million flag and the portraits of four leaders to every tibetan houses in the central tibet.
    tell the ccp in lhasa, they might have to change portraits of leaders as the ccp about undergoing a leadership transition.

  166. Chinese Engineer | January 28th, 2012 | 8:02 pm

    like always, you’re wrong. Morbidly wrong.

  167. daveno | January 28th, 2012 | 8:13 pm

    CE, its the position they hold,i am not interested with their ugly face although their face would fit the description for lue.( not really excited about your leadership race..the end is known at the start, popola will be replaced by grand daughter or niece or son who were educated in a system that all students should get passing grade, even those who couldn’t spell ‘good morning’)

  168. Chinese Engineer | January 28th, 2012 | 9:32 pm

    and what I just told you is that they will no longer hold their current positions after the leadership shuffle in 2012.

  169. tashi7 | January 29th, 2012 | 2:32 am

    leadership in the communist china is communist chinese hardliners party members who had the final say.These are ready to torture even their own race han chinese if it threaten their precious chair and power.They are neither following the communist rule as mentioned in the constitution.It is a barbaric mass genocide of ethnic races under CCP rule disguise as communist party..the chinese communist party ruling of totalitarian is disgrace even to Karl Marx.
    and
    IF someone want to argue against it then i want to hear answer to my question that…why china is not giving one country with two system as they have given to honkong,and offering to taiwan.why Tibet is not given its right to genuine autonomy according to the great constitution of the CCp.IN fact,tibetans are denied their basic human rights to participate in peaceful protest against their own govt. CCP.why they are brutally killed by gunshot the tibetan unarmed peaceful protesters.
    and look the chinese police had used salt on the wounds of the semi dead self-immolators and some they beat them up while dieying.Such inhumane treatment is unthinkable in the 21st century.
    CCP how long you think you can fool the world by controlling the media at home and using trade to control the free world countires.
    Your sin is going to burst one day soon.

  170. Dave | January 29th, 2012 | 11:35 am

    Check out Christophe’s essay on the self-immolations here: http://www.phayul.com/mobile/?page=view&c=4&id=30767

  171. Chinese Engineer | January 29th, 2012 | 11:09 pm

    “why china is not giving one country with two system as they have given to honkong,and offering to taiwan”

    Simple. OCTS is offered to territories that have not, at the time of the offer, returned to the mainland.

    Since PLA rolled into Tibet in 1959, long before this political structure was conceived, and because Tibet has been under firm Chinese control for roughly 40 years when OCTS was first rolled out, there is no need to put it on the table.

    To put it more bluntly, OCTS is a compromise offered by the Chinese over reintegration, and unfortunately for you, the TGIE has nothing of substance to offer in return.

    Ironically OCTS, or its archetype, was offered to TGIE in the 80′s. But we all know what happened.

    “Your sin is going to burst one day soon.”

    unfortunately your stupidity bursts every time you post shit like this, which is quite often.

  172. tashi7 | January 29th, 2012 | 11:43 pm

    I have no idea that you are so ignorant of your constitution Chinese engineer!
    I advise you to read your own constitution clearly rather than jumping to the conclusion based on the CCp propaganta…..

  173. tashi7 | January 29th, 2012 | 11:46 pm

    CCP as one country has only one constitution to rule and it has mentioned equality of all the ethnic minority to have one country with two system.ok. Chinese BROther…

  174. Chinese Engineer | January 30th, 2012 | 12:10 am

    you’re a retard.

  175. daveno | January 30th, 2012 | 9:21 am

    Whatever the case may be, i will be honoring the CCP Leaders picture on LUE TORMA for the upcoming nyeshu ghu.
    They are nothing but a waste and disgrace to not only their people but for others like Tibetan and non-chinese.

  176. tashi7 | January 30th, 2012 | 11:36 am

    you have a fucking attitudes ……why dont you code the constitution for everyone to read and see

  177. tashi7 | February 7th, 2012 | 9:16 pm

    thanks to chinese engineer i did some research and found that CCP has a record of unsucessful attempt to rewrite age old history of countries.hahahah
    Taiwan has been the real mainland china and if it needs to be reunited then CCP should consider uniting to Taiwan Government and not vice-versa.

  178. tashi7 | February 7th, 2012 | 9:17 pm

    Taiwan has been the real mainland china and if it needs to be reunited then CCP should consider uniting to Taiwan Government and not vice-versa.

  179. WANGCHUK | February 8th, 2012 | 10:41 am

    I HATE THE CCP. RIGHT NOW I HATE THE CHINESE CITIZENS TOO FOR THEIR IGNORANCE AND SELFISHNESS.

  180. Chinese Engineer | February 9th, 2012 | 2:07 am

    If you hate them so much, do something about it. You’re always welcome to immolate yourself, oh selfless martyr.

    To be frank, I find it very ironic that someone with your level of intellectual wherewithal can call anyone ignorant with a straight face.

  181. daveno | February 9th, 2012 | 10:23 am

    China earned a new friendship–Syrian people! They will never forget about it.

  182. Dorji | February 10th, 2012 | 2:41 am

    chinese bullshit engineer. apart from patenting the greatest killing regime in human history, what did u invent?

    i told you spirit is everything. you told me “keep thinking that”. let me illustrate for you little mouth shitting kid. It took a tibetan man’s words to pacify the mongol civilization for ever. One man and his spirit. It took you millions of lives and slavery to build a useless wall. as is and will be your current censorship wall.
    it took one man and his words to kill 80 millions chinese and how many tortured..One man. Or one evil should i say. Evil Tse Toung is the foundation of your current nation.

  183. Chinese Engineer | February 10th, 2012 | 3:00 am

    As always, your erudite wisdom escapes me.

    Allow me to get back to plundering your land and killing your people while you muster your indomitable Tibetan spirit.

    (I had a hard time writing this since I was laughing so hard. As always, your stupidity is most unintentionally amusing.)

    To Daveno,

    The Syrian situation is NOT what you think it is. I recommend not using CNN as your sole source of information.

  184. Dorji | February 10th, 2012 | 4:24 am

    you share the same sense of humor as evil tse toung. your spirit is blind and cold. it has been created by thousands of years of crime and cynism.
    you focus and debate on details and take them out of context, which prevent you from seing the being picture.

  185. Dorji | February 10th, 2012 | 4:31 am

    maybe you should take a trip to Japan and listen to stories of nanjing veterans. THere are quite a few left. Their sense of humor will make you laugh so much that you ll come back with a six pack.

  186. daveno | February 10th, 2012 | 8:53 am

    CE, just google chinese embassy in syria for a recent event.Not CNN or xinhau or books or word of mouth…just have a look at those throwing shit on CE ( happens to be you).

  187. daveno | February 10th, 2012 | 9:02 am

    So far Tibetan has been hitting the EARS and EYES of the world with plea. When are we going to hit the STOMACH (key to survival of a biological toy).Thats the next step i guess if these plea went unanswered.

  188. Chinese Engineer | February 10th, 2012 | 9:01 pm

    OH NOEZ, MY SPIRIT IS BLIND AND COLD (whatever the hell that means).

    “you focus and debate on details and take them out of context”

    No, I’m actually just smarter, better educated, and better read than you.

    But whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

    Carry on with being a retard, and of course being irrelevant.

    Ciao.

  189. DORJI | February 11th, 2012 | 5:48 am

    “No, I’m actually just smarter, better educated, and better read than you”
    listen how the student gives a grade on his own copy. lol. There are medicines and places for ppl who actually think they are gorillas.
    You are not an intelligent chinese. I have worked with mainland chinks Phd that were on stellar distance from you. Other dimensions i should say cause distance is not enough to describe how poorly geared you are. You are a brainswashed…brain on a cold metal stick.
    Now keep your ciao word with some meaning. Vanish in your hole, you bring nothing here.

  190. Tibetan engineer | February 11th, 2012 | 9:43 pm

    Haaaa, ha ha,
    “there are pills and places for ppl who think they are gorillas”
    ha ha ha.
    brother Dorji la, I have to love you and say tashi delek for this. that was a goood one.

    whats wrong with these han chinks? they always say and do things that make them self look fool and awkward. see now grandpa Wan is pleading to their own panchen lama to help tibet. what a joke

  191. Chinese Engineer | February 12th, 2012 | 4:13 am

    You want to know a joke? Here is one: Tibetan Exiles.

    After roughly 60 years of being the world’s foremost beggars and achieving next to nothing, you somehow still cling to the delusion that you are great and mighty, while ridiculing the PRC, who, for all intents and purposes, have reemerged into great power status in the same 60 years.

    One of you retards have asked me, rhetorically I might add, what achievements China has made recently. The very act of asking this question really demonstrates just how out of touch with reality you really are.

    Enjoy your irrelevance, forever.

  192. DORJI | February 12th, 2012 | 5:15 am

    Tashi Delek Tibetan Engineer.
    do you have a spare tchupa or even a tee-shirt to cover the naked chink that runs around here, like an excited mosquito? The sight is quite obscene and pathetic. where are his parents?

    btw if us exiled are such a joke i dont understand why chinese leaders are spending billions and get so angry whenever tibetan exiles are received and listened to by other nations. The spotlight is on you chink. And believe me, underestimating your own flaws is the biggest way to loose.

  193. Chinese Engineer | February 12th, 2012 | 1:45 pm

    “btw if us exiled are such a joke i dont understand why chinese leaders are spending billions”

    They don’t spend the money on your behalf, that’s for certain. The money goes into Tibet, NOT Dharmasala. Besides, isn’t it your position that the Han Chinese get the vast majority of state subsidies in Tibet?

    “get so angry whenever tibetan exiles are received and listened to by other nations”

    By Tibetan exile, you mean the dalai llama. Well, that’s fairly simple to answer: DL was positioned as the head of state for the TGIE, and any reception of him would denote to the Chinese a lack of respect to the existing and recognized territorial integrity of the PRC.

    Actually the “spotlight” is very much on you, how can you demonstrate that the exile movement has had any meaningful relevance? By all means, you have made no inroads in reclaiming your homeland.

    So please, oh wise and powerless and full of spirit (shit) Dorji, enlighten me on what exactly you fucks have done in the last ~60 years.

  194. dorji | February 12th, 2012 | 1:49 pm

    How is that your problem? what we do is our problem. I know what we have done and i know what i will do. YOUR problem is to transition your country to viable nation for your kind, and not kill and torture whether your people or people you have invaded, abused and still abuse and deny their most basic human rights.

  195. dorji | February 12th, 2012 | 1:52 pm

    now there are forums and blogs of constructive chinese people that want to improve the morality, the political maturity of your country. You are most welcome to put your build stone there.

  196. dorji | February 12th, 2012 | 1:59 pm

    by billions i meant all the funding of falsification of history, the funding of armies of spies, the funding of internet hacking, the funding of pr of prc in the world against the tibetan problem, the advantages/bate given to countries that will side china on their evil schemes (cough cough e.g.Nepal)

  197. dorji | February 12th, 2012 | 2:00 pm

    now put your clotes on. u have lots of work. Your country needs you to help improve.

  198. Chinese Engineer | February 12th, 2012 | 3:00 pm

    nice way to circumvent the question.

    Don’t worry, it was a purely rhetorical question. You fucks have achieved NOTHING.

  199. dorji | February 12th, 2012 | 4:55 pm

    we dont see the world, life and many things the same way. so how could you see and understand us? you will never get Tibet and tibetans. apart from a superficial military status quo and killing and torture. never. and time will tell. If you rape a woman you will never get her heart. if someone kill your relatives you will never accept the rule of that person. never.

  200. WANGCHUK | February 12th, 2012 | 5:03 pm

    THERE MUST BE A FEW CHINESE OUT THERE WHO THINK AND KNOW THAT THEY HAVE GOT IT ALL WRONG. AND YET NO ONE BOLD ENOUGH TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. IF I WAS CHINESE AND LOVED MY COUNTRY I WOULD SELF-IMMOLATE TO TELL THE CCP HOW VERY WRONG THEY ARE AND TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE. HOW LONG DO THEY THINK THEY CAN GO ON LIKE THIS? I TRULY DONT GET THE CHINESE MENTALITY.

  201. Tibetan engineer | February 12th, 2012 | 6:35 pm

    Dorji la you crack me up again. Ha ha ha “the naked chink that runs around here, like an excited mosquito”. Yes, he surly does like an excited mosquito that runs around here. What an imaginative expression, omg, I can almost hear that little annoying buzz noise when I think of chink. Very very annoying, isn’t it?
    It is such a waste to reason with this chink because some how he lacks the ability to rational and openness. His brain and attitude toward the world is what ccp have achieved within 60yrs. It is their greatest weapon and there are many like him, with or without their own conscious, blended all over the world. Not just in west.
    Remember 2008, how many of these red flagger pops-up on street. Forget about what happens in Tibet for now. Lots of shits happening to their own merig chikpa. Now where were the supports and rally on streets from these red flaggers? None. ZERO.
    WE,… we have to bring their shit along with our shit every time when we are on street. “OUR CHINESE BROTHER AND SISTER ARE DYING TOO”.

    Answer to the chink # 191.
    Yes, we are world’s foremost bagger. Now you also have to know how we became bagger. Your papa & uncle rob and steal our property and wealth. You see, that place which looks like a shoe in the map, north of India? It belongs to my papa and mama. Your papa and mama stole it from my papa and mama. Now our generation, you and me can became good friend if you tell your papa and mama, what they did was wrong and it is embracing to the world. Okay? That makes your papa and mama and uncle, the world‘s foremost thieves.
    The other one? We never say we are great and mighty. Remember we are kind of people who don’t grade our own copy. It is not in our culture. There is a saying in my culture,” tha-pho la kha dro dhu. Gong thang Me-yi gyap”.
    Dorji la, I think we should get a mosquito racket from dollar-rama store. Made in china. lol

  202. Chinese Engineer | February 12th, 2012 | 11:18 pm

    “we dont see the world, life and many things the same way.”

    The same way, or any way at all?

    The problem is well defined: PRC has Tibet, and you want it. Moral, legal, and historical implications have no real effect on the fact that PRC has military and economical control over Tibet.

    So how do you plan to take back Tibet? Here lies the problem, because you have no plan.

    Note, wishing that the Chinese would just give it back to you isn’t a plan.

  203. Tibetan engineer | February 13th, 2012 | 12:07 am

    Ok, CE if you want to talk nicely and openly. I would very much like come back to give an answer to your #202
    I need to hit the bed. Too late
    But no vulgarizing. Okay? Man to man with open mind and respect. Good night

  204. Dorji | February 13th, 2012 | 3:41 am

    To me it is rather simple now. Time will play in our favour, IF we hold together and if we dont destroy ourselves (i think you know what i talk about and the weaknesses in the tibetan community). I believe in that Karl Marx’s conclusion that history goes with moral progress. China went from very low startpoint and has been backward in that respect but to me the mentalities will change.
    We can help accelerate this process. By soothing their unconscious, and morally uneducated blind rage. We must set example of our moral wealth that can and will be in their benefit. Many chinese are coming back to budhism.
    If we hold together and are persistent we will be there still strong in several generations. Which is the time span we should look at.

  205. Dorji | February 13th, 2012 | 4:53 am

    We have been blessed culturally and through our history since Song Tsen with a magnificent philosophy and given by probably the greatest culture in the world(India), which helped the entire world. Pacifying the mongols without any killing and for ever has been an enormous contribution to humanity. No less than that. Now the next mission impossible is pacifying this roaring ill dragon. no less than that.
    I don t try to sound grandiose. That s exactly how it is in my eyes.

  206. Dorji | February 13th, 2012 | 5:56 am

    In that respect i’m trying to identify the keys to opening their mind. I ve met a lot of chinks of mainland and Taiwan to understand their psyche.
    How i see it now is that mainlands are possessed with a fever. They are animated by a huge will whose root is revenge. Revenge on life and past. But since it is a rather unconscious root and the underlying roots are like icebergs, they direct this will and excitement about their country without thoughtfulness and the excitement is so high that the ears are quite blocked. Which of course ccp has helped doing like crazy.
    So one question to me that i think about now is how to calm the paranoid beast.

  207. PASANG | February 13th, 2012 | 2:43 pm

    Dorji @ 204
    many chinese are coming back to buddhism for what purpose? i’m sad to say that many of those are coming to lamas and making offerings so that they can become more successful and do more business. they dont learn the true buddhsim and practise it but they love the rituals very much. lamas talk about it openly.but i guess its the first step.

  208. DORJI | February 13th, 2012 | 4:02 pm

    Pasang,
    thank you for giving me your opinion! Your are right about many people. But i will say to you that that applies to many other than chinese. Including tibetans. there is every scale of buddhism litteracy in our community. From Geshe to raw superstition. Now there are chinese who are truly interested and we should encourage that. One of the most watched celebrity in china is Jet Li, just as an anecdote. Movie star, followed and known by all chinese. HE is openly mentored by tibetan lama.

  209. PASANG | February 13th, 2012 | 4:56 pm

    i gree with you. in fact i’m saying this so that we’re prepared for the large scale corruption of our lamas (charlatans)by the influx of the chinese in their first step towards the dharma. i also agree that there are some chinese who are serious practitioners and others who are very sincere about studying buddhism. and i respect them. i also am aware that buddhism is not a one size fits all religion.we can find the best fit for our personalties and capabilities. but if the essential core of buddshim is not understood, concepts become meaningless.but then whatever works i guess.

  210. DORJI | February 13th, 2012 | 5:23 pm

    personnally i think the best introduction to Dharma is the most ancient one, especially to newbies. The texts translated directly from Pali. Sri Lankan buddhism. Valpola Rahula is a must. His traductions make you realize very quicly that buddhism is science. Applied to self. Tibetan buddhism is too complex and intricate with our history for many ppl to be honest. let s be realistic.

  211. Tibetan engineer | February 13th, 2012 | 6:39 pm

    Ok, CE here is your answer.
    1. Note, wishing that the Chinese would just give it back to you isn’t a plan?

    = No, it is not the plan. We don’t wish that. And I am sure PRC don’t wish one day out of the blue, we all Tibetan will became Chinese either.

    2. So how do you plan to take back Tibet? Here lies the problem, because you have no plan.

    = Yes, You are right we don’t have plan. We didn’t have to plan any, because there is reaction. We react on your action which comes naturally. Now these days reaction is increasing as you know. Isn’t it?

    3. The problem is well defined: PRC has Tibet, and you want it. Moral, legal, and historical implications have no real effect on the fact that PRC has military and economical control over Tibet

    = Yes, PRC has Tibet and you want Tibetan to shut up with your military and economical power but they don’t. Do they? It is because of moral, legal and historical implication.
    So do you have any plan to shut them up? Now here lies the problem, your money and military is not working, now what?

    Note, wishing that Tibetan will willingly one day transform into Chinese isn’t the plan?

  212. Chinese Engineer | February 13th, 2012 | 7:15 pm

    “And I am sure PRC don’t wish one day out of the blue, we all Tibetan will became Chinese either.”

    Actually I’m sure they wish for it all the time. The difference is that wishing isn’t the only method available to them to achieve their objective.

    “We react on your action which comes naturally.”

    That’s a toilet paper thin answer. How do you react to the demographical tide of Han immigration? How do you react to the continued suppression of the more troublesome monasteries? How do you react to a bullet to the head?

    “So do you have any plan to shut them up? Now here lies the problem, your money and military is not working, now what?”

    Not working? I have told you many times that I am a student of history, particularly military history. I can draw up a number of plans that will shut your proverbial mouth; after all, inspirations are abundant in the recent histories of the Caucasus, Eastern Europe and Africa. Do not mistake a reluctance for bloodshed for a lack of capability to carry out ethnic cleansing. Mind you, it’s hard to talk when you brain has been mashed to a pulp due to the cavitation effect of a bullet from an intermediate cartridge rapidly entering and exiting your skull.

    “Note, wishing that Tibetan will willingly one day transform into Chinese isn’t the plan?”

    Wish for the best, prepare for the worst. I think the CCP has both ends of this adage covered. The TGIE, on the other hand? Not so much.

    Which brings me back to my original point: TGIE is for all intents and purposes, powerless, and you guys are fucked.

  213. DORJI | February 13th, 2012 | 7:57 pm

    Now, Tibetan Engineer. PLease let us not respond to this blood thirsty mosquito. this has gone too far. ok? look how dark and ill this spirit is. it is not ready for anything else than reviving his cultural traumas and the thousands of years of rape his ancestors has got. plus this is seriously a chink that has spent some time in psychiatric hospital. seriously. Let us just avoid even reading, and please webmaster think of moderation.

  214. Chinese Engineer | February 13th, 2012 | 8:51 pm

    “PLease let us not respond to this blood thirsty mosquito. this has gone too far. ok? look how dark and ill this spirit is.”

    Really?

    Let me remind you what you yourself wrote:

    http://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2011/10/18/what-must-i-do/#comments

    “Aliens visiting the earth would prolly laser beam china to eradicate the cancer. Or maybe a few nuclear heads from other countries will do. ”

    “they predate on each other already since their beginning. Like cockroaches. they are not wired with compassion. ”

    “the only thing they understand is dog-like social behavior (some say u are what u eat rite?). pity japan didnt finish the work. ”

    Your hypocrisy is delicious, and your stupidity morbidly amusing.

  215. Tibetan engineer | February 13th, 2012 | 8:53 pm

    Here is the candy for you CE

    “Actually I’m sure they wish for it all the time. The difference is that wishing isn’t the only method available to them to achieve their objective.”

    Can you name two?

    How do you react to the demographical tide of Han immigration?

    Have you heard of lhakar movement? Just one among many. Not been initiated by TGIE or some NGO in exile, just for the record.

    How do you react to the continued suppression of the more troublesome monasteries?
    Troublesome monasteries? Answer is right in the content.

    How do you react to a bullet to the head?
    By showing you the head. Don’t you worry mine and many other’s number will hope not to come. But if it does then bullet flies both direction.

    I have told you many times that I am a student of history?? Uh! I thought you are some kind of engineer

    particularly military history.?? Umm.. does the FBI know this?

    I can draw up a number of plans that will shut your proverbial mouth; after all, inspirations are abundant in the recent histories of the Caucasus, Eastern Europe and Africa. Do not mistake a reluctance for bloodshed for a lack of capability to carry out ethnic cleansing. Mind you, it’s hard to talk when you brain has been mashed to a pulp due to the cavitation effect of a bullet from an intermediate cartridge rapidly entering and exiting your skull.

    Well, while you are fantasizing this in front of your computer with bowl of instant noodle and pig feet soup, your comrade butcher were practicing this for years and years.
    Reaction?
    Noise are getting louder and louder.
    Which brings me to the point. Your wish for worlds super power is fucked.

  216. dorji | February 14th, 2012 | 1:53 am

    yes i have in a moment of rage because tibetans were being KILLED at the very moment i wrote those exagerated, written impossible (exagerated) scenarios. Now, are we killing your people?
    No. Now that was our last exchange.

  217. Tibetan engineer | February 14th, 2012 | 8:15 pm

    Were is Gyarken now?

    Brother Dorje la, in fact, I am not surprise.
    We may be dealing with one of Uncle Hu Jin tao’s crap that he shits from his ass and left it inside the toilet at U.S. Chink’s embassy during his visit. No wonder it smells sickening, it is expected.
    Dorji la, you may need mask. 

  218. Dorji | February 15th, 2012 | 4:13 am

    Tibetan Engineer Brother,
    We need to have compassion for this little psychopath. We stripped him naked of all layers of bullshit and pseudo intelligence, to expose to us and himself the violent and sick elements composing his spirit and their roots.

    But spirit can change, it can heal. I really hope that he will give his cognitive capacities the courage to explore his spirit and heal for his own benefit and the world.
    Cynism, brutality, lack of empathy and enormous passionate attachment to the illusion of one self has made the violent medieval mongols among many other cultures kill madly. The same now with chinese.
    we really need to help them explore themselves. The question is how..Because frontal fingerpointing as we did now is not working so well I think. You don t calm an hysterical person by fingerpointing at more of their flaws. We need to find other ways I think.

  219. Dorji | February 15th, 2012 | 8:05 am

    a blockbuster movie would be an idea.
    A movie ABOUT chinese. And directed BY a chinese. A movie that will implicitly adress the contrast between the good things/wisdom in their culture, and the destructive forces towards themselves and others, showing where some of it comes unconsiously.
    A movie that will talk to both the rational mind of chinese and their deep rooted anger.
    The scenario must be VERY, VERY well written so that they don t see it as an insult and react with mental self defense. And that they digest the learning during a long time, and deeply.
    If that s a movie ABOUT them, they ll do anything to watch it. And such medias have huge impact both quantitatively and qualtitatively (if well done). It must be inspirational to them. But there s no way to fail with such a project. It must be very subtle to not wake the hysterical beast.

  220. Chinese Engineer | February 15th, 2012 | 1:54 pm

    “We stripped him naked of all layers of bullshit and pseudo intelligence”

    Your inflated opinion of your intelligence with respect to mine is wholly undeserved.

    If anything, your pointless diatribe here has really demonstrated how stupid you and your equally worthless friend Tibetan “Engineer” really are.

    Enjoy your lifelong stupidity and irrelevance. Oh, and poverty.

    Ciao.

  221. WANGCHUK | February 15th, 2012 | 3:16 pm

    CHINESE ENGINEER, AT BEST YOU MAY BE A SMART PERSON. THERE IS DIFFERNCE BETWEEN BEING SMART AND BEING INTELLIGENT. AN INTELLIGENT PERSON HAS THE POWER TO THINK… AND TO REASON AND CLEARLY YOU DONT. A SMART PERSON CAN RECITE WHAT HE/SHE HAS LEARNED.
    YOU PEOPLE HAVE A CAPACITY OF RESPONDING OR SOLVING PROBLEM IN A LIMITED TIME. BUT INTELLIGENT PEOPLE (LIKE US) IN A LONGER LAPSE OF TIME.
    BTW, MY FOLKS STILL HAVE HAUNTING VISIONS OF THE CHINESE SOLDIERS WITH THEIR TATTTERED CLOTHES SLURPING SOME WATERY SOUP WITH TINGMO WHEN THEY FIRST CAME INTO TIBET.

  222. Chinese Engineer | February 15th, 2012 | 3:23 pm

    “THERE IS DIFFERNCE BETWEEN BEING SMART AND BEING INTELLIGENT”

    Clearly you’re not speaking from personal experience, since you are neither smart nor intelligent. If you want to get into a pissing contest with me, at least grow another brain cell so you can rub the two from time to time.

  223. Tibetan engineer | February 15th, 2012 | 6:44 pm

    To CE,
    Why are you wailing like a miserable old whore of china town massage parlor? Only one reason I can think of ; She cannot provided the proper service. There is no juice left in her.

    I thought you are going to contest me word to word like I did to you #215??
    “ Beeee A Maaan,” says Russel peter.

  224. Yarab | February 16th, 2012 | 2:04 pm

    We the outside tibetan must work much much harder. NGOS are looking for ideas, donations, any resources you can offer to hightlight the Tibetan suffering under communist regime especially inside tibet. Word or idea must gear toward action. money should put in use.

    TIBET WILL BE FREE.

  225. Sangay | February 18th, 2012 | 4:08 pm

    Someone in the Facebook status said Bhuchung K Tsering of ICT called “Tsampa Revolution” as Tibetan Buddhist Nationalism or some bhuddhist theological or somethign like that. I dont recall now clearly. I’m not sure how many of you are aware of this. Those who know can you please give me link to the souerce where said that. Thanks.

  226. Christophe Besuchet | February 18th, 2012 | 11:29 pm

    Sangay,

    This is the reference to Bhuchung’s article:

    Bhuchung K Tsering, “Man on fire”
    http://bit.ly/AyZA4d

  227. Sangay | February 20th, 2012 | 12:25 am

    Thanks Christophe. Bhuchung K Tsering earlier said self-immolations in Tibet as ‘indulgence’. Now he says they are the rise of ‘Tibetan Buddhist Nationalism’. When push came to shove, he changed the story…or what?

  228. TSUNDRU | February 20th, 2012 | 8:17 pm

    Chinese Engineer – Ref. posting # 191 and others.

    Do you feel any shame or loss of face for the way PRC and your countrymen treat your infants?
    My onetime coworker (quite newly ‘off the boat generation’& now ‘assimilating into the modern world’) mentioned that she realizes it is quite a national shame. A rich developing country selling off their children by the thousands. Even ‘beggars’ value their blood and flesh.

  229. TSUNDRU | February 20th, 2012 | 8:19 pm

    Flesh & blood.

  230. TsePhu | June 22nd, 2012 | 10:39 am

    I have heard of Jamyang Norbu la from my friends although I haven’t the chance of meeting him. I very recently started reading and following his work closely and I find myself appreciative of the fact that there is a Tibetan intellectual who is well versed in his subjects and topics and isn’t afraid to take a stance even if that means critically making a point against someone who we’ve always revered whether it be Samdong Rinpoche or the current Kalon Tripa or the Dalai Lama himself. I have great respect for Tibetan leaders like the names above, but I find it imperative to have scholars just like Jamyang Norbu, who’d be critical enough and bold enough to point out the mistakes, mishaps, and short-comings of our leaders and the Tibetan govt. I just wish there were more people like him in this struggle rather than someone who always fawns and pussyfoots.

    TsePhu

  231. sonamtopga | October 21st, 2012 | 2:36 am

    I think the spate of self-immolations in Tibet must make people to talk about it more in political terms than in religious paradigms and analogy; taking ones own life in any form can’t be construed as religious under any pretext, but taking ones own life for political reasons as a means of violent protesst against the Chinese occupation of Tibet,a desperate act aimed to highlight the Tibetan issue to the international community, to my mind is the only political options left to the Tbetans to show vehement disagreement with the occupation of their land by an alien power; needless to say that the act itself is painful and heart-rending, it inflicts deep pain and sorrow where a particular family is impacted; the departed leaves behind innumerable people mourning and wailing with sorrow and pain, in view of the fact it would be difficult to find any Tibetan eulogizing and encouraging the act, nevertheless, it would be equally difficult not to remember the departed souls as nonpareil in the context of courage and bravery; martyrs is the only word by which they could be remembered.

  232. maximo hudson | January 17th, 2013 | 8:16 am

    It is ironic that “moral relativism” is being used here to justify the use of self-immolation as a politcal tool in the cause of Tibetan independence, when that’s exactly how China rationalizes its own human rights “excesses.”

  233. tenpel | March 11th, 2013 | 6:02 pm

    Self-immolations are not by nature Buddhist. I think its better to discriminate this more carefully.

    When the Bodhisattva who became the Buddha Shakyamuni offered his body to the tigress he had a high level of realisation and he did this with the pure thought of Bodhichitta, to attain enlightenment in order to free all beings from their suffering and its causes.

    All of the commentary literature of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism I’ve read so far – including the oral commentaries I received – make very much clear that to offer the body for the benefit of others should only be done if the Bodhisattva has a high level of realization, and this means usually he has attained the first Bodhisattva Bhumi (realized emptiness directly). At that time he is said to have attained a mental body and it is said, even if you cut his ordinary body in slices he would not experience any pain (you find this in the commentaries to the first chapter on generosity to the Madhyamakavatara).

    A commentary to the Bodhisattva ethics by Khensur Rinpoche Losang Tarchin makes clear that for a Bodhisattva who has permission to engage in the first seven of the ten non-virtuous actions (for the benefit of others, including killing) his level of realization should be that he is able to bring the mind of a just diseased person back to the body and revive the person or to make a dead tree alive again.

    This makes clear that scarifying the body – which as a real practice is rather rarely mentioned in Buddhist scriptures – must be seen in the context the religious literature is explaining – it’s not meant to be a role model to emulate in general but only under certain conditions and based on the motivation and realization of a certain individual. Hence, such examples, in my opinion, should not too easily be projected onto the current situation.

    The tradition of self-immolations in China is described by Biggs:

    “Chinese Buddhist texts from the fourth century onwards describe monks choosing death—often but not always by fire—to manifest their transcendence of physical existence, to demonstrate the power of Buddhist practice, or to elicit benefits for their monastic community.”

    This again has not to do much with Buddhism but seems to be rather a cultural context.

    Biggs – who made a research on self-immolations and placed them in context – also shows that (at the time of his research, 2012) 25% were Buddhists who self-immolated. The highest number of self-immolations at that time “occurred in India, when the government proposed to set aside more state jobs and university places for lower castes in 1990. In the campaign against this policy, over a hundred students set themselves on fire, took poison, or hanged themselves.”

    You find a table with the (cold) numbers at the end of the paper: http://info-buddhism.com/Self-Immolation-in-Context_Biggs.html

    I quite disagree with the idea that self-immolations have to do much with Buddhism based on my own Tibetan Buddhist studies – in rare cases they can be a part of one’s religious practice but only if the person has an exceptional pure motivation and at best a high level of realisation.

    One of my teachers, Ringu Tulku Rinpoche, explained the self-immolations of Tibetans as follows (the faults in the English are mine):

    “There is a discussion about whether the self-immolations are Buddhist or not Buddhist, if they are according to Buddhist principles or not. But this, I think, is not the issue here. These are protests. These are protests and they are not based on hatred. No Tibetan who self-immolated himself or herself has ever said something negative about China, like “down with China” – as one might expect – instead of doing this all of them asked for freedom and the return of the Dalai Lama. If the protests were based on hatred they would say something negative about China, but they didn’t do this. Buddhism doesn’t promise something good if someone self-immolates. Unlike other religions one doesn’t become a martyr nor are there virgins waiting in the heaven for someone who does this. No higher birth is promised. Rather Buddhism teaches that one has to experience this [rather traumatic] experience again and again. But Tibetans do these protests besides this. It is their despair. They think it is better to die than being captured during the protests and being tortured slowly to death after having been arrested. Westerners don’t understand it. Tibetans have too much faith in Western democracy. They have too much faith or expectations that Westerners will take their protests seriously and will help them, e.g. by urging China to change their policies against Tibetans.”

    Then a person asked: But Westerners don’t stand up for Tibetans, they say it is aggression against themselves and they have even less compassion for Tibetans.

    “I heard this but I cannot understand the logic behind this. Why should I have less compassion if someone self-immolates? I cannot understand this logic.”

  234. gary beesley | March 12th, 2013 | 11:18 am

    While the self immolation campaign cannot be justified according to scripture, it clearly deserves attention an respect. However, the hands of all Tibetans seem tied with regard to calls for it to stop. Therefore, as a Westerner with the greatest respect for the noble Tibetan cause, I would like to exercise my freedom of thought and speech by asking Tibetans to please stop this terrible campaign now Such a death may well be noble but appeals to the Chinese and West are falling on deaf ears. If the deaths of millions of Tibetans did nothing to rally the world against China., these deaths will achieve little more

  235. tenpel | March 12th, 2013 | 5:47 pm

    I would like to step in Gary’s call: with all due respect, 107 self-immolations have not achieved any major change. To save even one of those young lives right now deserves effort.

    Why is there no Tibetan that initiates a campaign, that urges the youth of Tibetans to stop the self-immolations because they have be proven to be ineffective and only ended so many precious lives?

    Neither China nor the West will change by any further self-immolation.

  236. Christophe Besuchet | March 12th, 2013 | 8:54 pm

    Gary and Tenpel: who said that the aim of these self-immolations was to appeal to the West or China…? Read the following piece, you may see the problem from another angle:

    “Self-immolations in Tibet: who is to blame for the stalemate?”
    http://bit.ly/Q98XFC

    Christophe Besuchet

  237. GARY BEESLEY | March 13th, 2013 | 4:00 am

    Of course, it is impossible to fully comprehend the motives of others: we would need to be Buddha to do that. However, it strikes me that there may be more than one motive at play here and neither myself, nor Tenzin, nor Christopher is the right one. Perhaps a combination?
    However, semantics apart, regardless of motives, what drove me to comment was the wish for this (sadly) pointless suffering to end. For various reasons, these immolation achieve little more than a brief mention on page five of national newspapers and a whole heap of heartache.
    In the words of one of our current Karmapas, Tibetans need to stop hurting themselves and “to preserve their lives and find other, constructive ways to work for the cause of Tibet”

  238. gary beesley | March 13th, 2013 | 6:29 am

    “Why is there no Tibetan that initiates a campaign, that urges the youth of Tibetans to stop the self-immolations?”
    Think of the consequences…….
    He/she would be labelled a traitor to the cause, a Chinese ‘poodle’ and sympathizer by Tibetans.
    It is only as Buddhists that we can safely speak out about this self inflicted suffering-therin lies another reason for Yidzhin Norbus silence-If he speaks as a Buddhist, it undermines his position as spiritual guide of the Tibetans; if he speaks as a Tibetan, it undermines his position and prtrays him as appeasing the Chinese

    This is a task that can really only be undertaken without fear of consequence by non-Tibetans who follow that nations faith.

    Having said that, if the Dalai Lama remains silent and one of the Karmapas advises more constructive responses, the implicit message is surely that hurting oneself is not a viable solution

  239. tenpel | March 13th, 2013 | 8:59 am

    Thank you Christophe.

    It’s true, the Tibetans who self-immolated didn’t directly appeal to the international community, except Jamphel Yeshe but who lived as an exile in India already …

    Your essay links the self-immolations directly to the TGIE and what they do and don’t do. You have good arguments to show this, on the other hand, dynamics of emulating self-immolations due to social dynamics within occupied Tibet, e.g. dynamics in Kirti monastery are not considered in the examination which makes it a bit one-sided for me.

    I agree, the self-immolations have achieved something for the inner Tibetan community, they have brought it more together or serve as a key factor in a national identity. It’s wrong to say they have not achieved any thing. It’s also true that the change comes from within the society in occupied or oppressed countries/people. This was – as you pointed out – so in Tunisia and this is also true for East Germany, where I come from: our own dissatisfaction and our own bravery (or more precise the bravery of the brave who went ahead) blew the government away, and I was always thinking, China will only change based on the dissatisfaction of Chinese, and then this would be also true for Tibetans in their colonised country.

    What is a while in my mind too is that the strategy of the TGIE might be indeed wrong. From a legal point of view, Tibet is occupied by a foreign force, Tibet is under the power of a colonizing power, why has this never been become a part of the strategy to fight for Tibetans?

    The international community is violating their own legal laws, when they accept Tibet as a part of China, and when this illegal act of China – according to international law – that led to the annexation of Tibet’s territory into the Chinese federation is not addressed as being illegal, wrong, corruptive, double standard by the TGIE the TGIE in fact plays into the hand of China and it wrongly supports the comfort of Western countries to not get involved, the TGIE is just making it too easy for the West and China.

    In that sense, I agree that the TGIE should indeed revise their strategy. I would have hoped with a law professor from Havard as their head there are good chances for a change.

    As long as TGIE and the West accept the illegal act of occupying Tibet as quasi standard, they undermine international law, and they undermine the Tibet cause. It might be the better strategy to fight just for the international legal rights of Tibet, to focus all on this.

    Recently I became aware of a paper by an international law expert which made me aware of the silent acceptance of an illegal state:
    http://info-buddhism.com/Tibet_Status_Under_International_Law.html

    Now, I wonder, why is there no Tibetan who puts himself as a candidate for an independent Tibet according to international law and the rights of Tibetans?

    Maybe it is time for this?

  240. tenpel | March 13th, 2013 | 10:59 am

    Still, there is one point I utter disagree with:

    I disagree that the self-immolations can be based on Buddhist principles, and I think it is a quite misleading claim to do so. Those who offered their body in Buddhist scriptures were real Bodhisattvas, this is a high level of realization.

    I think it’s not a good idea to justify the self-immolations with Buddhism because 1) this is not really tenable if investigated more deeply 2) it might twist both, the real cause of the self-immolations (being political protests) as well as twisting Buddhism to what Buddhism is not.

    ZEIT, a German quite known main stream media already speculated if “the suicides are an expression of fanatism”.

    One of the rare moving and really good reports about the self-immolations I came across is that of German’s Spiegel:

    http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-86570538.html

  241. Kalsang Phuntsok | March 13th, 2013 | 1:48 pm

    Tenpel wrote, “Those who offered their body in Buddhist scriptures were real Bodhisattvas, this is a high level of realization.”

    How do you know that those who self-immolated in Tibet have not attained that high spiritual realization you speak of? How do you investigate this? And who has the ultimate authority to determine what level of realization is high enough or not?

    By making these kind of statement, are you implying some how YOU have the secret knowledge to tell who is Buddha and who is not?

    To me these are just nonsensical hot air. What is clear is that these are protests against oppression. And secondly, these are the most non-violent form of protest by any measure. I personally don’t know if these ultimate form of non-violent sacrifices by the few for the sake of freedom for many has anything to do with Buddhism. May be it does. But I think it is only incidental because most Tibetans are Buddhists or call themselves as Buddhists. So, can you say that Buddha’s teachings have had no influence on these people for choosing to engage in a very non-violent form of protest?

  242. GARY BEESLEY | March 13th, 2013 | 2:40 pm

    Kalsang

    Setting fire to yourself is not nonviolence it is violence against yourself ie self inflicted harm It is prohibited in the tantras

    You put words in Tenzins mouth. He quotes scripture, in response you accuse him of claiming divine status-too extreme; too hot headed

    Are you claiming that all 107 imollators were high level bodhisattvas? Are you suggesting they were demonstrating enlightened activity? If so, why would HH express sadness-if these were high level bodhisattvas, that would be inappropriate after all

    You ask who has who has the ultimate authority to determine what level of realization is high enough or not? I am afraid this is a matter of recorded scriptural authority not opinion-check the teachings on the bhumis and qualities of a bodhisattva

    You obviously care a lot. But maybe your caring is making you a little emotional? Sometimes being too close to an issue makes us emotional and irrational

    Why attack someone for wanting to contextualize the immolation in a Buddhist context and who obviously genuinely cares about the suffering of the Tibetans? Arent you biting the hand that feeds you?
    Tibet has enough problems with enemies without impetuous young men running around seeking out more, especially amongst allies.

    Do I detect a hint of ‘Im Tibetan so dont talk to me about Dharma or the Tibet issue-I know best’? Such thinking is born of racial stereotyping-very 1970s and exactly what the Chinese do with regard to the Tibetans

  243. daveno | March 13th, 2013 | 3:07 pm

    since when did Tibetan political crisis a ‘BUDDHIST’ teaching related–violent or non-violent…who cares…the political issues needs to be resolved.

    Seperate the two as it should be and bring out the best offer one has to resolve this crisis.

  244. gary beesley | March 13th, 2013 | 3:26 pm

    So you don’t think it’s right that HH talks about the Tibetan problem from a Buddhist perspective? Patience, compassion and tolerance are unacceptable/irrelevant because of their religious nature?

    I am not qualified to offer solutions but I am free to express my grief and my opinion(which coincidentally, is a Buddhist one- does that make it irrelevant?)

    Politics and religion have been inextricably linked for centuries ( it’s what led to Guru Rinpoches invitation to Tibet) Appeals to separate.the two are naive and show an ignorance of history

  245. daveno | March 13th, 2013 | 3:38 pm

    Past is a fact and present & future is in our hand–the political crisis should be treated from political lense.
    Everyone has right to express opinion,so does HH if you chooses to bring about buddhist teaching into political landscape..but to accept or reject is one’s own choice–he wont force anyone.

  246. gary beesley | March 13th, 2013 | 3:46 pm

    I dream of a world governed on Buddhist principles-just a dream

  247. Kalsang Phuntsok | March 13th, 2013 | 3:46 pm

    Gary,

    Who is Tenzin? And I did not put words in his mouth? If you mean Tenpel, then read my comment carefully. I am only asking questions.

    Yeah scriptures… they need an interpreter too. Don’t they? I don’t know much about “Buddhism” but last time I checked there were 2 Panchen Lamas, 2 Karmapas and most likely we will have 2 Dalai Lamas. Let’s not even mention scores of minor competing tulkus, rinpoches etc. etc.. I can go on and on, but what’s the point.

    Gary, you may be well meaning, but I would do away with the patronizing tone if winning friends is your objective. If you are looking for your own flock of sheep then I don’t know. Don’t count on me though.

    And BTW, your sense of detection sucks.

  248. tenpel | March 13th, 2013 | 7:32 pm

    Kalsang Phuntsok wrote:

    “How do you know that those who self-immolated in Tibet have not attained that high spiritual realization you speak of? How do you investigate this? And who has the ultimate authority to determine what level of realization is high enough or not?”

    I pointed out, that it is better to discriminate this issue carefully and not just to apply the rare examples of extra-ordinary deeds of exceptional highly realized Bodhisattvas onto the self-immolations of 107 most often very young people, and to use this as a means to justify these actions as being deeply based on Buddhist principles.

    Those who do this, who equalize the self-immolations with the deeds of highly realized Bodhisttvas, do the fault you try to ascribe now to me. Because they indirectly claim by this equalization that those who self-immolated would have attained such a realization or are similar to those Bodhisattvas or have extra-ordinary pure motivations like those Bodhisattvas mentioned in the scriptures.

    So what you try to fling to me you have to apply to the logic of those who equalize the self-immolations with the deeds of highly realized Bodhisattvas, hence:

    “How do you know that those who self-immolated in Tibet have attained that high spiritual realization the scriptures are contextual referring to? How do you investigate this? And who has the ultimate authority to determine what level of realization is high enough or not?”

    The point is, we never know. We don’t know if these young people have had that level, motivation and pure thoughts the Bodhisattvas mentioned in the scriptures had or not. Therefore it is just not proper to equalize their deeds with that of the Bodhisattvas because if you are doing this you claim yourself to have the authority to see they have the same or a similar level.

    The “level of realization is high enough or not” in this it is rather clear: usually, to give the body away, it is said, you should have attained at least the first Bodhisattva Bhumi. At least one should not regret the deed after having given away the body.

    Now. I only made clear what the context of the stories in the scripture is, and why I don’t agree to the claim that the self-immolations would be totally in line with Buddhism. The key teachings in indo-Tibetan Buddhism are: the precious human life (Lamrim, Ngöndro)), the protection of life (ethics, Vinaya), and in tantric context even the root vow “not to harm the aggregates” (which includes to not to commit suicide); exceptions from these utter basis teachings are made only in rare cases for highly realised Bodhisattvas.

    More care to evaluate the context of the scriptures is appropriate.

    I think its also fair to issue a doubt in that context. I doubt if 107 (most often) young people who were (unlike the trained Vietnamese self-immolators) not in total control over their body (which could be a sign of having attained mental mastery at least of certain concentrations) can be fairly said to have been Bodhisattvas. Why mainly young people, why so less mature/elder people? These are valid doubts I think.

    However, I do neither claim they are or they are not Bodhisattvas.

    What you fling to me befalls not me but falls back to those who equalize the deeds of young Tibtans with the deeds of the highly realized Bodhisattvas the scriptures are referring to. It follows

    “By making these kind of statement [that those acts can be equalised with the deeds of the Bodhisattvas mentioned in the scripture], are you implying some how YOU have the secret knowledge to tell who is Buddha [or Bodhisttva, who has a pure motivation] and who is not?”

    It follows because you don’t know “To me these are just nonsensical hot air.”

    I agree however, with you “What is clear is that these are protests against oppression.”

    But there is no pervasion that “And secondly, these are the most non-violent form of protest by any measure.” because, also violence against one-self (and if the action is not based on a very pure causal and time motivation or a high realization they are violence against oneself – because of being harmful for oneself in the long run – these actions are then against the spirit of the teachings, against the tantric vows etc). And in this opinion I am supported by His Holiness, who said in the past, that he regards hunger to death strikes and self-immolations as violence against oneself. However, it needn’t be violence against oneself, it depends. Therefore, a claim that this not violence (under all circumstances) or that it is violence (under all circumstances) is not tenable because it depends.

    —-

    You say:

    “I personally don’t know if these ultimate form of non-violent sacrifices by the few for the sake of freedom for many has anything to do with Buddhism. May be it does.”

    As I said, there is no valid proof that these self-immolations are non-violent sacrifices because to claim this one would have to read the minds of those having chosen this type of protest. My point is, that I see it as wrong just to take rare events out of the scriptures to justify the self-immolations as in nature (deeply) Buddhist. Tibetans can ask their own religious leaders/authorities about this. There is a difference in cultural expressions which are believed as being Buddhist by a people and Buddhism. The discrimination is made also by Tibetan lamas. They can be asked about this.

    If you ask “But I think it is only incidental because most Tibetans are Buddhists or call themselves as Buddhists. So, can you say that Buddha’s teachings have had no influence on these people for choosing to engage in a very non-violent form of protest?”

    I would reply, how much has Tibetan culture and circumstances shaped these self-immolations? “So, can you say that Tibetan culture and circumstances have had no influence on these people for choosing to engage in a very non-violent form of protest?”

  249. tenpel | March 13th, 2013 | 7:50 pm

    A brief side track.

    When re-thinking what I read by Jamyang Norbu and Christophe, it also came to my mind today that the middle way approach also has some achievements which shouldn’t be overlooked: His Holiness was able to make through this, and through his extra-odrinary warm and wise heart friendship also with a lot of Chinese, who are now supporters of the Tibetan cause. In the long run, a change can come if the critical mass is just big enough. It cannot be said, that the middle way approach has not achieved anything.

    Also at least the sympathy and support the Tibetans receive from the world, is based on the middle way approach. So, I think also this has to be seen more differentiated, in the same way how Christophe correctly says that the self-immolations have positive effects for the cohesion of Tibetans.

    There is another major achievement Tibetans have: Pico Iyer is pointing it out, that the Tibetans in exile are one of the most successful exile community, a community that didn’t implode in violence, poverty and all types of abuse:

    “This has made the Tibetan exile community one of the success stories among refugee groups in recent decades. But no less important, perhaps, it has offered a possibility to many others on a planet where there are, by some counts, as many as 33 million official and unofficial refugees. By showing how Tibet can exist internally, in spirit and imagination, even if it is barely visible on the map, the Dalai Lama has been suggesting to Palestinians, Kurds and Uighurs that they can maintain a cultural community even if they have lost their territory. Communities can be linked not by common soil so much as by common ground, a common foundation.”

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1724446,00.html#ixzz2NTFlu2gX

    So actual, there are a lot of achievements due to the middle way approach also.

  250. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 12:37 am

    Kelsang
    Thank you so much for your advice. I don’t agree with you but your concern that others get things right is clear. Thank you

  251. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 3:28 am

    Ps Kelsang
    I don’t want friends, disciples or sheep. Nor do I wish to be a detective. I would like to have good manners-rudeness is so primitive don’t ha think;)

  252. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 5:24 am

    @DAVENO,

    my comment was related to JN and those, like Robbie Barnett, who claim (wrongly) that the sel-immolations were deeply Buddhist. I gave reasons, why I disagree with this and that I think one has to be careful to claim so.

  253. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 6:28 am

    to balance what I said, though I don’t see self-immolations as “in nature Buddhist” and though I regard such a claim as wrong, nevertheless, a self-immolation can be a Buddhist practice, dependent on the motivation and realization of the person.

  254. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 7:02 am

    When people are filled with anger they see an enemy at every turn Someone will no doubt not find fault with your justification of validity
    Here’s the point, there is no way these suicides can be considered Buddhist unless those who chose to take their own lives were high level bodhisattvas. To refer to them as Buddhist acts is highly irresponsible unless this distinction is made very clear as it provides false justification for those who are not high level bodhisattvas to give their lives in a way that can only result in suffering for them in both the short and long term. This is not a matter of opinion-anyone who understands a little about the bhumis, karma and the precepts would know this.
    Those who reject this perspective appear to be driven by motives other than the wish to clarify the status of these acts from a Buddhist perspective.
    On the other hand, as Buddhists, our principal aim would seem to be to prevents suffering in all it’s forms. There is nothing wrong with this and we should not have to justify this to others.
    If people don’t like this because it offends their personal agendas, maybe they need to look at themselves instead of attacking others, like spoilt children who didn’t get what they want-like it or not, for the majority of beings, suicide in all it’s guises is a non-virtuous act that only brings suffering to the victim and those they leave behind-the Chinese don’t listen, the Western media don’t give a damn and the Tibetan people within to Tibet are galvanised in the face of an unconquerable foe So what’s the point? Think of a better way to fight this virtuous fight.

  255. Kalsang Phuntsok | March 14th, 2013 | 9:27 am

    Gary Beastly and Tenpel,

    Let me lay it out in simple language; I PERSONALLY DON’T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT RELIGION. WHAT I CARE ABOUT IS HUMAN FREEDOM, JUSTICE AND DIGNITY. We are all humans before we are Buddhist or communists or whatever. Perhaps you find it to your dismay that some people aren’t able to shake off their humanness. Well, that’s because you live in an imaginary Buddhist Disneyland or dream to live in one.

    Who are you to say if the Self-Immolators are not Buddhist? Most of them were monks, wore monk robes, lived in monasteries and see themselves as Buddhists. So who are you to pass judgement on them and tell what constitutes Buddhist act or non-Buddhist act?

    What does YOUR “Buddhist” logic suggest the Tibetans should do? Forget the whole thing and go into caves to meditate towards nirvana? Perhaps that’s what you would want us to do. After all, doesn’t the Buddhist philosophy, if carried to its logical conclusion, prescribe us to shun the material world and strive towards a higher “Spiritual Realization”? I know you will rejoice if we did that.

    Well, I think what you are trying to do here is cultivate Defeatism in the guise of Buddhism in the minds of the Tibetans and their supporters.

    We Tibetans have no shortage of preachers and I don’t see the need for new ones.

  256. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 9:38 am

    pardon me but you seem to have a big problem–perhaps a holiday?
    As I detected, it’s a racist issue-personally, I’ve been a Tibetan for several lives. how bout you? Ever tried anger management classes?

  257. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 9:54 am

    In seriousness, human freedom and dignity are synonymous with religion- the two are not opposite
    the Buddhist Disneyland we live in is one we share with HH and generations of Tibetans-perhaps they are fantasists too in your view
    the logic which defines suicide as negative is clearly written in scripture, it is not an Inji fantasy
    as a solution. To the problem, I do not know. But since nether HH or anyone else has worked that one out I won’t beat myself up
    If you had anything more than a basic understanding of Dharma you would understand that it does not teach us to shun the world
    Defeatism and realism are distinct_recogniizing these suicidal acts as futile and wasteful is not defeatist-it is pragmatic, the same pragmatism advised by HH and Karmapa
    Nobody is preaching here-we quote your scripture and plead with you to stop hurting yourself-is that so wrong Or do you see only arrogance
    remember, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind

  258. Dawa | March 14th, 2013 | 10:16 am

    I am saddened by the self-immolation by my fellow Tibetans. But I will never criticize them. They have made the ultimate sacrifice for other Tibetans.

    Since we live in a world dominated and defined by western ideals, and since the mainstream West does not give a fuck about Tibetans, and since our leadership in exile has decided to spend its resources and energy in dancing to China’s tunes, and alienating one group of Tibetans with another, I am guessing some of those brave men and women in Tibet decided it is time they do something on their own. But since they don’t have the freedom and resources that we in the free world have, and since they are Buddhist loath to harm Chinese, guess what seems to be the only workable solution from their perspective.

  259. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 10:34 am

    Agreed-but please don’t think Westerners don’t give a f::::k or that we don’t know the evil that is China Politicians may be weak but the people are with Tibet

  260. Dawa | March 14th, 2013 | 11:41 am

    Mr. Beesley,
    I mean the mainstream West. Obviously there are Tibet supporters and some Dharma folks who would support secular Tibetan causes.

  261. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 12:02 pm

    Dawa
    I am not just talking about a few old hippies and some Dharma bums . The overwhelming majority of the ordinary men in the street I encounter view the Chinese government with a mixture of suspicion and fear. Indeed, many consider the growth of China to be as great a threat to the future of the free world as fundamentalist Islamism
    it is the politicians who are too frightened to mention the elephant in the room of human rights for fear of losing Chinese investment who are the minoritySadly, they are the ones in positions of power on this ship of fools called western democracy

  262. Tsering Dolker | March 14th, 2013 | 1:28 pm

    In my opinion, putting the self-immolations sacrifice
    in the context of religion is missing the point. They sacrificed
    themselves for the sake of their countrymen and the fact they
    Happen to be Buddhist is incidental, not the crux of the matter.
    Frankly, such banter only serves to hijack the more pressing issues
    of murder, subjugation, and colonialism of Tibetan people.

    But since we are discussing it here, and different technical
    aspects are being discussed, let me ask a question: if someone
    who is not a bodhisattva kills himself in order to save others, isn’t that
    a Buddhist act? What if someone was to say for example, renounce
    your vows or you will be beheaded and your monastery will be burnt to the
    ground, and he refuses to comply and is beheaded for it. Is that a Buddhist
    act? And someone mentioned about Buddha in one if his former
    lives sacrificing himself to save the tiger family and that he was highly enlightened at the time. Care to give me the source for that? All the stories I have read
    simply speaks of his extraordinary level of compassion but none of having achieving level of bodhisattva levels.

  263. GARY BEESLEY | March 14th, 2013 | 1:46 pm

    The tigress story is from the Jatakas. The Buddha to be had advanced on the bhumis at this point
    http://www.ignca.nic.in/jatak025.htm
    The beheading is not an act of suicide
    According to the Vinaya of the now extinct Mahisasakas, suicide is a grave offence and is said to prevent the continuation of the virtuous life. Again, it refers to badly injured laymen refusing to commit suicide because suffering in this life causes one to practice the Dharma

  264. GARY BEESLEY | March 14th, 2013 | 2:19 pm

    I am astounded by how many young tibetans cannot see that religion and politics are inextricably linked and have been since time immemorial
    Check this
    http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/God_s_Rule.html?id=joUNMJgPGtgC&redir_esc=y

    “Resisting the tendency to separate the study of religion and politics, editor Jacob Neusner pulls together a collection of ten essays in which various authors explain and explore the relationship between the world’s major religions and political power. As William Scott Green writes in the introduction, “Because religion is so comprehensive, it is fundamentally about power; it therefore cannot avoid politics.” Beginning with the classical sources and texts of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Confucianism and Hinduism, God’s Rule begins to explore the complex nature of how each religion shapes political power, and how religion shapes itself in relation to that power. The corresponding attention to differing theories of politics and views towards non-believers are important not only to studies in comparative religion, but to foreign policy, history and governance as well. From early Christianity’s relationship to the Roman Empire to Hinduism’s relationship to Gandhi and the caste system, God’s Rule provides a basis of understanding from which undergraduates, seminarians and others can begin asking questions of relationships “both unavoidable and systematically uneasy.”

  265. Tsunddru | March 14th, 2013 | 3:59 pm

    Tenpel & Gary Beesley:

    Can you please just try putting yourselves in the shoes of the Tibetans in Tibet (immolators in particular)? You might then get a taste of what it is that they are experiencing. We feel their suffering and acknowledge their motivation in protesting the ‘noble’ cause of Tibet. Just requesting generosity with basic COMPASSION or ‘humanness’. I am not pleading for the ‘higher ‘compassion (only bodhisattvas and realized teachers are truly capable of that).
    AND maybe we can also LET GO our highly cherished fixations on ‘morality’; ‘ethics’ etc and stop judging.
    It’s my thinking that even our revered teachers have NOT IMPOSED such judgements…..they have expressed sadness for they have felt the sufferings of the people. And then maybe your own suffering of over this issue might lessen a little.

  266. gary beesley | March 14th, 2013 | 4:19 pm

    when will people realise that to some this is not about Tibet I only comment here because I see fellow humans inflicting terrible suffering on themselves and it isn’t achieving anything. All .i want is for it to stop. The reference s to Buddhist tenets are simply because someone, thoroughly incorrectly, described these acts as ‘ Buddhist’ This is providing justification for terrible acts and yet this justification is just not there in Buddhas teaching. I can’t believe the anger coming out of people simply because someone says please stop hurting yourselves-is that such a terrible thing to ask?

  267. Tsunddru | March 14th, 2013 | 5:24 pm

    Beesley:

    Since you keep mentioning Buddhist tenets etc: Blame your ego & its immediate labeling of things and your clinging to its views for your frustration. You are projecting your frustration & anger as being directed to u form others……

    Where is your patience to ‘hear’ other’s views or thought? Isn’t this a discussion forum…..or are Tibetans supposed to only take directions?
    I am detecting a tantrum from a spoilt child.

  268. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 5:45 pm

    @Kelsang. It’s up to you to reject and to accept. I don’t want to battle with you in any way – especially not in the current situation.

    As I said, my point is, that it is misleading and basically (except for extremely rare cases) wrong to justify self-immolations as being Buddhist. I based my opinion on scriptures, their context, and reasonings. I also contextualized briefly self-immolations in other contexts and provided a link to a paper investigating this. Either you have good arguments which can invalidate my arguments or you don’t have them. However, to follow the strategy. “if you have no arguments, slander your opponent” is not much helpful for getting clarity in this but only to make others “shut up”.

    I don’t agree with Jamyang Norbu who claims “The deed of the thirteen self-immolators is not only Buddhist in an unquestionably absolute sense, … ” nor do I agree with Robbie Barnett who claims: “So an act that is done for the good of the community is considered noble, and especially so if it is done by a member of the clergy.”

    I don’t know if JN or Robbie Barnett are Buddhist or not, if they are, they should know better and accept valid arguments (to see the context of the scriptures) if they are not, why do they have to justify political protests which such “drastic acts” as self-immolations as being Buddhist? Why mingling religion into it?

    That’s all.

  269. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 5:51 pm

    Dawa, I utter agree with you “I am saddened by the self-immolation by my fellow Tibetans. But I will never criticize them. They have made the ultimate sacrifice for other Tibetans.”

    And I don’t criticize those who self-immolated in any way. I criticized JN and Robbi Barnett, and those who – based on superficial arguments – claim that the self-immolations were per se in nature Buddhist.

  270. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 6:43 pm

    Tsering Dolker, I agree with the first part.

    With respect to the second. JN writes: “One chapter of this sutra recounts the life story of the Bodhisattva Medicine King who demonstrated his insight into the selfless nature of his body by ritualistically setting his body aflame, spreading the “Light of the Dharma” for twelve hundred years.”

    So just take this and apply this to the situation of the young Tibetans who set themselves on fire? Can Jamyang Norbu say for sure, that they had “insight into the selfless nature of [their] body”? and is it true, that “setting [their] body aflame, spreading the “Light of the Dharma” for twelve hundred years.”?

    —-

    If within indo-Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism, and especially its Gelug branch, we speak of a Bodhisattva, doctrinally and technical speaking, this is a person who has attained ‘uncontrived Bodhichitta’ (=spontanious, effortless) which is already a high level of realization because self-concern is totally eradicated at that time. Most say to attain ‘uncontrived Bodhichitta’ you must have attained calm abiding, which is a high level of attainment of concentration, and rarely found. A Tibetan master who has attained calm abiding said, its even more more difficult to really develop Bodhichitta, even when you have attained calm abiding. Just based on this more precise point of doctrinal view brings the position of those who claim those who set themselves on fire have acted like those Bodhisattvas into discredit because how do they know that they had “uncontrived Bodhichitta” and / or calm abiding? And have these young men and women “spreading the “Light of the Dharma” for twelve hundred years.”?

    That a Bodhisttva is giving away his body only if he has attained the first Bhumi is usually mentioned in the commentaries to the first chapter of the Madhyamakavatara by Chandrakirti where Chandrakirti says: “If asked: does physical suffering not arise in bodhisattvas who give away external and internal things as a result of which, how could it be said [that they are devoted to giving at all times]?

    Explanation: It is just impossible for physical suffering arising in great beings (mahasattvas), like cutting mindless things.”

    I have not the commentary by Je Tsongkhapa with me to look what he exactly comments in that context but I will try to find one in the library within this week. However, I remember clearly that we discussed this in our class.

    So I will add later on this, however, there is this Tantric Root Vow: “(8) Reviling or abusing our aggregates” that forbids to harm the body or to even weaken it.

    HOWEVER, it’s of course not black and white. If someone with a good motivation for the sake of others kills himself, it can be of course a compassionate or a Buddhist act that brings benefit also in the long run for others or at least the person doing it. It depends. The tricky point is what the motivation of the person was initially and at the time of the deed. And because this is so tricky and one can easily delude oneself (instead of being led by compassion being led by a klesha), one should be careful with all of this.

    It is true, that in the tigress, it is not mentioned on what level the Bodhisattva was, but he had an unwavering mind of Bodhichitta. The story in the Sutra Of Golden Light, Chapter 18, says:

    “Furthermore, O noble goddess, a bodhisattva give
    s away even their body and life to help
    others. How is that so?”

    Then it is told that Arya beings [which are those from 1st bhumi onwards] don’t have fear to give their body away, and the prince contemplates the impurity of the body, and the benefits of giving it away to attain highest enlightenment:

    “To benefit transmigrating beings, may I attain the peace of peerless enlightenment; My mind compassionate and steadfast, I give this body which others find hard to give up;

    May I achieve the flawless, priceless enlightenment that bodhisattvas so keenly seek.
    I shall free beings in the triple worlds from the intense fear of the ocean of existence.”

    http://www.fpmt.org/education/teachings/sutras/golden-light-sutra/download.html

  271. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 6:53 pm

    @Tsering Dolker, I checked my digital files briefly and found what I said – that one should only give away one’s body (usually) when one is on the first bhumi (path of seeing) also explained by Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche, he says in his Madhyamakavatara Commentary (available as free PDF) on page 67:

    “There should be the word ‘even’ at the start of the third line: his act of generosity is the most
    important, so that “even giving his own flesh with enthusiasm infers what is not seen”. For
    example, when Shakyamuni was a prince called ‘Courageous One’, he was walking in a forest
    and he gave up his body to a hungry tiger. The last line is important, because how can an
    ordinary person judge whether someone is already on the first bhumi or not? You cannot see,
    smell or taste such qualities. But if someone has the courage to give up his own flesh, this tells
    us that he has inner qualities that we cannot see, and that he is on the first bhumi. However, until they reach the path of seeing, bodhisattvas are instructed not to give up their flesh or their life, with the exception of donating organs after death.”

  272. The Owl | March 14th, 2013 | 6:59 pm

    Gary, what is it with your pretentious harangue of others, accusing them of being angry, emotional, racist, needing of anger management classes, etc, just because they don’t agree with your opinions, as if you are somehow an island of tranquility in a sea of turbulence and chaos. As Hume once wrote, ‘we use reason as a tool to justify our passions’ and by your petty retorts, you exemplify the Humean motto.

    Though I forgive you, its only human nature to get angry, in that, we are very much like pubic hairs on a toilet seat, every once in a while, we get pissed off.

    Anyway, I very much agree with your call for the self-immolatiors to cease and desist their volatile actions, especially as the world, for the profit of economic gains, have deliberately turned blind and deaf to the plight of Tibetans by the bloody hands of psychopathic China.

    I also don’t think that the Buddha would have condoned such an act. As you may know, when Kapilavastu was invaded by King Vidudabha, Gautama sat stoically in meditative repose.

    Reminiscent of a Zen story when a Samurai General and his ragtag army razed a village to the ground and threatened the aged Zen Master with his sword saying, “I could run this right through you without blinking” where upon, the Zen Master allegedly replied, “I could let you run that sword right through me without blinking.”

    The Buddha and the Zen Master are both testimonies of the stoic-like apathy engendered from a Buddhist world-view which sees reality as delusion and not worth fighting for.

    Even the Dalai Lama would agree, as I have read the Dalai Lama himself talk about the suicide of this ascetic he once knew, whom he liked and respected for his purity. The said ascetic killed himself because he couldn’t keep up his vows made to his root guru, the Dalai Lama, so to expedite his shame took his own life. I remember thinking, what a poor, stupid idiot. Anyway, the subject in question revolved around esoteric meditation.

    And, for your information, there has been individual Tibetans, in other blogs, who have pleaded with their Tibetan brothers and sisters in Tibet to stop setting themselves on fire not because they love China but hate the thought of fellow Tibetans suffering such hideous deaths.

    I also agree that Religion has been an inextricable part of politics the world over, as once upon a time, religious ideas were seen as the very best of human knowledge, but now we have better comprehension in how to run our societies with the aid of Enlightenment ideals, scientific reason, moral philosophies, behavioral economics, etc.

    Lest we forget the oceans of blood spilled in the name of Religion throughout history, and if now, each country is allowed to run their government, their politic from the perspective of their own religious faith and beliefs, these beliefs being mutually exclusive, mutually blasphemous, mutually hostile, bitter and deeply divisive with one another—we will, in no time, be marching backwards to the dark ages, the age of holy wars, of burning and torturing witches, heretics, and blasphemers, for the mere crime of thinking outside the naive fundamentalist worldviews.

  273. sonamtso | March 14th, 2013 | 7:18 pm

    The whole issue come about because many people – chinese and others including some tibetans were saying that the act was against Buddhism. Thats why i think Jamyand Norbu wrote this article. If it makes some people uncomfortable so what to do?
    of course in the secondary practises,the destruction of life-including self -this may be seen as a negative form of action as life is precious and the first precept is against killing -including self. And since we live in a dualistic world , we abide by the secondary practices. But if you go to higher teachings, then ideal buddhists should transcend rules of conventional morality when motivated by compassion. If instead of focusing on buddhism maybe focus on “bodhisattvaism” for moral and cultural dilemmas.anyway i dont think the people who self immolated were seeking buddha status as we all know it is almost impossible.ultimately what matters is compassion- the INTENTION to prevent a greater harm.

  274. Tsunddru | March 14th, 2013 | 7:45 pm

    SonamtsoLa:

    It’s good that you brought up the issue of Conventional truth and Ultimate truth. Thank you.

    The former is universal and compatible with all religions, humanists and atheists. It’s tricky talking about the latter; as it can be misunderstood & abused.

    I think Tenpel and Gary are focusing on the Conventional Truth – Hinayana.

    Shakyamuni Buddha was supposed to have transmitted the latter – Vajrayana/Mahayana only to a select group. And here is where we get the misunderstanding with Emptiness i.e. Sunyata being taken for Nihilism and other such.

    Since Tenpel mentions about such and such ‘thing’ being Buddhist or not being Buddhist – I wonder if Tenpel has read Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche’s ‘What makes you a Buddhist’.

  275. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 8:03 pm

    The Owl

    _()_

  276. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 8:21 pm

    Tsondru, what has what you write to do with my arguments, if I read the book you mentioned or not, does this in any way invalid my arguments?

    It does not.
    BTW, I read it.

    Sonamtso, the Chinese turn really all things upside down, and perverse propaganda is difficult to be corrected and needs often extra effort, care, patience and a lot of factual knowledge. I appreciate the effort JN and others are doing in correcting the Chinese officials’ perverse propaganda. However, its not a solution either to address perverse propaganda with fallacious or at least not well thought out arguments.

    “But if you go to higher teachings, then ideal buddhists should transcend rules of conventional morality when motivated by compassion. If instead of focusing on buddhism maybe focus on “bodhisattvaism” for moral and cultural dilemmas.”

    I agree. Good and bad are (or wholesome and unwholesome) are not good and bad (or wholesome and unwholesome) from their own side. But as long as we are not on a higher level, it’s better to abide by the ethics.

    “anyway i dont think the people who self immolated were seeking buddha status as we all know it is almost impossible.ultimately what matters is compassion- the INTENTION to prevent a greater harm.”

    I accept.

    And all of this doesn’t invalidate my argument, that it is incorrect to claim per se that self-immolations were in nature Buddhist and to give as ‘proofs’ de-contextualized, rare examples from Mahayana scriptures.

    A self-immolation can be a Buddhist practice, and it cannot be a Buddhist practice, it depends.

  277. Tsunddru | March 14th, 2013 | 8:50 pm

    Tenpel ;

    What I wrote in #274 was in response to #273; I have CLEARLY addressed it to SonamtsoLa and with gratitude.

    Only the last bit was written as a btw and addressed to you. So where is the reason to get defensive or offended and so easily and with such SPEED?

    And that is the MAIN POINT – All your writing is about seeking VALIDATION. If you had sincerely read Rinpoche’s book you wouldn’t keep seeking validation, confirmation and get HUNG up on your view.
    In the end without basic Compassion High & Lofty Ideals seem to fall flat on one’s face.

  278. daveno | March 14th, 2013 | 8:52 pm

    whether its buddhist or against buddhist is subject of debate for kushola and kenpo la over a cup of ja bhoeja.

    The very purpose of the act is to protest against ccp occupation, rather different form of protest thant those in middleeast. It could be suicide by spreading pigflu all over big cities in china…one at a time. Lets give buddha a break and take it human way.

  279. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 9:13 pm

    Tsunddru, maybe my English was unclear.

    My reply was only addressed to what you wrote to me: What has to read this book or not to read this book to do with my argument, that it is wrong to claim that the self-immolations are per se Buddhist in nature.

    JN and some claim that would be so, I said “No!” and gave reasons for my claim, nobody could so far say these reasons are wrong.

    Maybe you can explain why self-immolations are in nature Buddhist or as JN says: “The deed of the thirteen self-immolators is not only Buddhist in an unquestionably absolute sense, … ”

    unquestionably absolute sense – mhm.
    Don’t attack me, use reasons.

  280. Tsunddru | March 14th, 2013 | 9:28 pm

    Tenpela ;

    It is difficult to respond in discussion with you Tenpela becoz you are so easily hurt and defensive.
    I don’t want to ‘attack’ you with any responses. I gotta rest up – its another long day for me tomorrow – and more until 04/15. Good nite….may be tomorrow.

  281. tenpel | March 14th, 2013 | 9:41 pm

    @ Tsondru, I saw only now your comment #265.

    These are two different issues, the self-immolations, and how the self-immolations are interpreted. I only addressed the latter specifically here on the blog.

    However, I think its enough. In a way it really distracts from the suffering of Tibetans and what those who sacrificed their life and body have given. I don’t want to belittle it. I do apologize if this came across.

  282. The Owl | March 14th, 2013 | 10:38 pm

    Tenpel wrote:

    That a Bodhisttva is giving away his body only if he has attained the first Bhumi is usually mentioned in the commentaries to the first chapter of the Madhyamakavatara by Chandrakirti where Chandrakirti says: “If asked: does physical suffering not arise in bodhisattvas who give away external and internal things as a result of which, how could it be said [that they are devoted to giving at all times]?

    Explanation: It is just impossible for physical suffering arising in great beings (mahasattvas), like cutting mindless things.”

    Leaving aside my opinions of cloistered clerics interpreting ancient scriptures as nothing more than armchair metaphysical speculations: Also leaving aside the point that people who don’t feel pain, a rare disease called congenital analgia, don’t tend to live very long for good biological reasons—let me come to the attainment of first Bhumi by a mahasattva, which Chandrakirti claims that, “it is impossible for them to feel physical suffering.”

    If that is the case, why did the Dalai Lama swat and kill mosquitoes out of annoyance? Many Tibetans here will know that he admitted this, and when I first heard it, I had no problems cos we all may have done it one time or another.

    Since the Dalai Lama did kill mosquitoes, does that mean that Dalai Lama isn’t a Bodhisattva? Not a “mindless thing”? I don’t think he is mindless, but i will defer to the inerrancy of archaic scriptures to adjudicate. lol

    If the Bodhisattvas feel no pain, who are holy indifferent to their existance, why are only the poor Tibetans setting themselves on fire? Is there a chance that a highfalutin bhumi master tulku would sacrifice his body to the flames for Tibet?

    No freaking way, and I reckon he would have scriptural justifications to back up his non action. This reminds me when I once attended a dharma talk by sakya rinpoche on the ills of modern materialism and superficiality. Here is this 70yr old man with jet black hair preaching against superficiality. I think to myself, is this a miraculous sign of his Bodhisattvaness, a being who is not subservient to the ravages of time, a being who feels no stress, no slings and arrows in his blissful life in Samsara, or occam’s razor, he dyes his hair. /s

    Anyway, if the Dalai Lama hasn’t even gained higher jhana than I have, by scriptural logic, wouldn’t that disqualify him from pretending to know things he don’t? Like the time he confirmed the recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje, the golden child of Situ Rinpoche and the Chinese regime. The Dalai Lama claims to have recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje’s birthplace in a dream.

    Here i have written down near verbatim how the Dalai Lama explained, no doubt utilizing his uncanny puissant infallible Tulku detection methods,in an interview posted on youtube. Wiki also has excerpts of his prophecy…

    “I got some kind of a, a dream of the area where he was born; a valley, with stones, how you say, lawn, beautiful, streams, and that is, how do you say, the main picture……..some sources telling me, Oh, this is the place where he was born.”

    I as a pious Tibetan would say to the Dalai Lama’s explanations; Good enough for me!

    Tulku theory seem so discordant with the theory of Evolution, or maybe such things as the simulacrum of biology, common ancestry, gradualism, speciation, genetic, fossil “evidence” is overrated. Maybe the the astonishing hypothesis is just a dream, ha ha

  283. Tsering Dolker | March 14th, 2013 | 11:16 pm

    So, aside from assumptions, we have no concrete backup for
    The theory that Lord Buddha in one of his previous lives have
    reached Bhumo número uno. I fail to see how you can presume
    that he has reached it bases simply on the notion that he was able
    to fearlessly give away his life. Isn’t this what the self-immolations
    were precisely doing, it is almost eerie the lack of hatred for the
    oppressors in most of the testimony. What are we to make of this?
    Also, remember there were some high lamas in the midst
    of the self-immolations and it would be simplistic to say it was
    not based on Buddhist principles or not.

    And what is the difference between suicide and letting others
    kill you? Isn’t letting others kill even more sinful since you are
    dooming that person to endless lives in misery and abode
    in the lowest of the hell realms? Let me point to the story about
    Captain of a ship, who was another of buddha’s early lives, who
    killed to save others from incurring bad karma. Likewise it could
    be argued that taking life instead of allowing them to kill you or
    Even opting to perform suicide to save them from such a fate
    is a Buddhist act.

  284. The Owl | March 15th, 2013 | 1:37 am

    Jataka Tales is just that, tall tales. Debating about the stories in the jataka tales is akin to debating about how many angels can dance on a head of a pin.

    Only one’s who can stop the self immolators are the Chinese regime or the Dalai Lama. China is doing all it can to stop the self immolators, by torture and handing out long prison sentences to whole villages.

    The Dalai Lama’s opinion is, “if I ask them to stop, some people will think this and if I don’t ask them to stop other people will think that, so I don’t say anything.”

    As long as Tibetans are torching themselves and calling for the return of the Dalai Lama, I doubt he would ask them to stop as he wants to return to Tibet. Even now, after he “gave us Democracy” he is still telling anyone who ask, that he feels Marxism, for him, is the best form of governance, because, says he, “everyone shares equally.” Whether out of simple naivety or whether this is yet another politically expedient statement he is making I have no clue.

    Forget what Marx and Engels thought about Religion, the “scientific savvy” Dalai Lama is even out of touch with decades long studies in social sciences regarding self serving biases of homo deceptus, common sense alone should be enough to inform him the truism of human selfishness. As New York times had reported, the Chinese leaders and their families, some of them former pig farmers has hidden billions of dollars thru controlled assets.

    All his friends are lapsed Marxists who have moved on, yet the Dalai Lama is still playing the same card, maybe because he is trying to send signals to Beijing that he is okey dokey with their form of Social Spencerian and corruption, just as long as the Regime let him in.

    The Tibetan Political Review today has this article where a Tibetan family who are pro middleway parading around with Chinese flag, this is a logical conclusion of the middle way manifesto, as CTA had boasted that they have the overwhelming support of all Tibetans, in diaspora as well as in Tibet, where the Dalai Lama in the film, unblinking gaze(I think) gushed, “I would be happy to be a Chinese citizen!”

  285. Tsering Dolker | March 15th, 2013 | 3:27 am

    Owl la, that family is in the second trip but this time
    they are not carrying the Chinese flag as they figured
    it would be too divisive. Maybe he should have thought
    about that before he took that step. Anyway, it is clear
    this new guy was carrying a Chinese flag at India gate
    recently.

  286. GARY BEESLEY | March 15th, 2013 | 5:40 am

    If these people were to channel the strength of their commitment to finding alternative ways of addressing this problem, then because their commitment is so strong, the solution would be that much more effective
    Politics, semantics, religion and racial arrogance aside, innocent beings are putting themselves to death and the only effect this appears to be having is suffering-the intended goal is clearly not being achieved This is a waste and it would be less painful if it stopped
    Call me a Chinese sympathiser, an arrogant inji, call me whatever you like but I still say
    STOP THESE SUICIDES NOW

  287. GARY BEESLEY | March 15th, 2013 | 5:42 am

    kELSANG
    “So, aside from assumptions, we have no concrete backup for the theory that Lord Buddha in one of his previous lives have reached Bhumo número uno”

    Read the story, I think youll find it opens with something along the lines of “At one time, the BODHISATTVA”

  288. Dhasa Yogi | March 15th, 2013 | 6:26 am

    Whether I agree with or not, I am grateful that many of you write with best of intention. There are more people like me on the site who read than write. So keep writing. It will make people think.

    For all of you ( except Chinese 50-cent collectors) I say thank you, this includes GARY BEESLY . You are no arrogant inji. You write because you care.

    My only wish is, if people who matters in high offices follow these discussion with an open mind.

    I will be going to D.C. next week for lobby day. I will update if I hear any juicy stories cooking there. What a sad year for Tibet.

  289. Tsering Dolker | March 15th, 2013 | 7:31 am

    Gary: it was me, not Kalsang who asked that question. I asked
    Because the stories I heard it was in a princely guise, and not as
    a bodhisattva.

  290. gary beesley | March 15th, 2013 | 7:50 am

    Sorry my mistake

  291. Kalsang Phuntsok | March 15th, 2013 | 8:44 am

    “And that is the MAIN POINT – All your writing is about seeking VALIDATION. …”

    Tsunddru la, I don’t think Tenpel is seeking validation. In fact it is the opposite case. He is claiming authority to give validation. He is holding a giant stamp that says “BUDDHIST” and he is saying he can’t use it on these non-violent protests because of some scriptural technicality. Well first of all, no one gives a damn about his stamp. Secondly, I have a similar stamp too. The only difference is that his eerily resembles the Chinese government version. And mine, I just threw it in the garbage bin.

  292. Kalsang Phuntsok | March 15th, 2013 | 9:35 am

    @287
    Gary, the attention level you are displaying here tells me that YOU are the one who needs to go back and read the story carefully.

  293. Pasang | March 15th, 2013 | 9:47 am

    Tenpel says that it is wrong to self immolate beacuse people who do are not fully realized or buddhisattva. But where are the fully realized buddhisattvas doing anything to help other people? They are just too busy selling the dharma to rich inji’s and Koreans and Chinese. So poor people must do it themselves.

    Tenpel’s religion is elitist one. Religions where mullahs and geshes’ tell everyone that they should do this and that otherwise they are wrong. Fuck you.

  294. gary beesley | March 15th, 2013 | 10:21 am

    Read it several times already The devil is in the detail Thanks for the advice

  295. gary beesley | March 15th, 2013 | 10:40 am

    DNFTT

  296. Dawa | March 15th, 2013 | 10:46 am

    #261
    Gary Beesley

    Exactly. Most mainstream westerners do not give a damn about Tibet or its just causes. There are some who would do anything against China because they do not like China for other reasons. While it doesn’t harm us much, that kind of support is unpredictable and unreliable. For if they began to like China they will drop Tibet as though it were a stinging nettle.
    As for old hippies and Dharma Bums: There are lot of them who have more depth and sincerity than many of our own dharma peddlers.
    We need supporters who understand Tibetan history, understand right of nations to govern themselves and who understand that Free Tibet is an inalienable right of the Tibetan people.

    #284 The Owl

    I agree with lot of what you say. But I think HH is in a tight spot. How can he ask Tibetans in Tibet not to burn themselves? If he does every unthinking brute in our society will condemn those acts. When that happens it is like killing the soul of those inside Tibet. We were not able to do anything for Tibetans inside Tibet. Let us not hinder them at the least. Our elected officials spend their time smacking down dissenters. In fact you should watch this speech on March 10 in New York by the representative Lobsang Nyendak (Is he campaigning for something? I thought the election was over.)
    This guy is never going to unite Tibetans. He is comparing Tibetans who disagree with the Middle Way policy to Chinese who call HH names.
    From one side of his mouth he is saying there is freedom of speech and from the other corner he is saying those who disagree with the official line are against HH. What kind of leader is that?
    Anyway, in this case I feel HH does not deserve criticism.

  297. daveno | March 15th, 2013 | 11:00 am

    i have to agree with po passang. For the highly realized being like tulku and rinpoches..tibet crisis is just another samsaric sufferings ,hence so long as human exist,these shit will be there.
    its upto human to take the matter in hand and stop depending on magic and flying soldiers that may never exist!

  298. tenpel | March 15th, 2013 | 1:16 pm

    Tsering Dolker:
    “it would be simplistic to say it was
    not based on Buddhist principles or not.”

    I agree with this. And the only thing I questioned was Jamyang Norbu’s ‘unquestionable’ claim, that “The deed of the thirteen self-immolators is not only Buddhist in an unquestionably absolute sense, … ” (as well as those who step into such a claim.)

    I opposed this claim by replying “Self-immolations are not by nature Buddhist.” and I gave some reasons.

    To avoid misunderstandings, I added: “A self-immolation can be a Buddhist practice, and it cannot be a Buddhist practice, it depends.”

    That’s all from my side. It appears basically we agree.

    ——–

    “Lest we forget the oceans of blood spilled in the name of Religion throughout history …” — The Owl in #272

  299. The Owl | March 15th, 2013 | 4:02 pm

    Thanks Tsering Dolker, about the Chinese flag flap. I made a mistake, got fooled by TPR using an older photo of the family.

    Dawa

    What you said about Dharma Bums and hippies having more depth and sincerity than many of our own dharma peddlers is, by and large, right on, moreso as I have first hand experience in this being a former Tibetan “dharma bum”. The reason for this discrepancy I believe is that many injis on their spiritual journey, to find themselves, crave the maxim, knowthyself, know the dharma, by critically examining the various dogmas, every nuance of the scriptures, to separate chaff from the wheat, extracting precious kernels of truth from the cultural baggage which the dharma come packaged in. Just as Gautama counseled in the kalama sutta, to not just rely on scripture, specious reasoning, authority, axioms, etc.

    Whereas our own dharma peddlers, all come too easily for them who are serendipitously born into the culture, or chosen at an early age, and maybe even against their will, many familiar with the dharma only thru the narrow porthole of scholasticism, by rote learning, mouthing insights of the wise antecedent sages of the past.

    “I agree with lot of what you say. But I think HH is in a tight spot. How can he ask Tibetans in Tibet not to burn themselves? If he does every unthinking brute in our society will condemn those acts.”

    I don’t disagree with your point that Kundun is in a catch 22 situation, a, damn’d if you do, and damn’d if you don’t pickle, yet, while there might be few yahoos in our society who may act fanatical,(as this seem given)if only to save few lives, I wish the Dalai Lama had requested our brethrens in Tibet to stop setting themselves on fire because its not only the atomizers who lose, their families and friends lose too and suffer the wrath of China with their proclivity of doling out harsh punishments to anyone and everyone who are even vaguely connected with the self immolators.

    I recall that even the Karmapa, quite early on, pleaded with the self immolators to stop sacrificing their precious lives, and recently our Sikyong Dr. Lobsang Sangay, I think on March 10th, said to the effect, “we wish they wouldn’t do this.”

    To my knowledge, there has been no reaction, negative or otherwise in the Tibetan Community due to the Karmapa and Dr. Sangay’s entreaties toward the Tibetans in Tibet. This is not surprising as I believe, deep down, it must be heart wrenching for all Tibetans, to daily witness our fellow brothers and sisters setting themselves ablaze while the World sleeps, to see their charred remains, broken and smoldering on some no name street, a poignant testament of the cruel legacy that China has inflicted upon us, what they have made our once proud people become, ashes and dust.

    Lobsang Nyandak is a PR man for the Dalai Lama, you would expect him to protect his boss because, as sure as hell, I never voted for the man.

  300. gary beesley | March 16th, 2013 | 2:58 pm

    it strikes me that some of the vitriol expressed here with regard to the dharma, Buddhist practitioners, monastic politics, vitriol expressed by young Tibetans, is not very different from the vitriol employed by theChinese in order to justify their rape of Tibet. Tibetans without Dharma is bad enough;Tibetans without basic manners and respect for the views of others exist at the same level as the Chinese

  301. sonamtso | March 16th, 2013 | 10:09 pm

    Gary,

    please leave Dharma out of this drama. i think all tibetans will agree with me without a shadow of doubt that Buddha Dharma is the most precious for tibetans. but tibetan buddhism how it has become now is something else. we still have many good lamas [thank god for that] but the majority now are in it for wrong reasons. just like so many western people talk so negatively about their christian/catholic churches and priests. its the same. only difference is tibetans do not reject the precious dharma given by Buddha.however tibetans are quickly losing respect for those many lamas and tulkus who are “all talk and no practise”.
    dont worry, tibetans will never be without Dharma. Pure Dharma will flourish stronger than before.

  302. daveno | March 16th, 2013 | 10:16 pm

    Why does Syrian/others gets stronger political and financial support of various governemnt than peaceful tibetan? the various govt that are representing those living in developed nations.

  303. GARY BEESLEY | March 17th, 2013 | 5:41 am

    The clearly ironic statement “we still have many good lamas [thank god for that]“@301 speaks reams.
    The distrust you have of current ‘Dharma’ antics is simultaneously healthy and tragic. Healthy because there have always been charlatans pretending to be religious (false tertons are nothing new)and these have always merited suspicion but tragic because it echoes the semantics of the CCP, semantics they justified their rape of the motherland

    Daveno. the Syrians get support because greedy Western business-governments want to control whatever new political beast emerges after the storm, andto prevent the spread of Islam. No one will confront Chines because it is the biggest money making machine on the planet, now the so called ‘communists’ have made capitalism their new virtue

  304. GARY BEESLEY | March 17th, 2013 | 6:22 am

    PS Sonam Tso
    “please leave Dharma out of this drama”
    No can do
    Dharma pervades all our lives, politics included
    Dharma hekps us make sense of Tibets tragedy and Dharma will givie us the strength to triumph in adversity
    leaving the Dharma out of it is exactly what the Chinese want-it is the glue that holds the Tibetan people together-Why do you think that crafty drug dealer MaoTseTung said religion is poison? He had his own designer drug to sell-but its nowhere near as powerful

  305. sonamtso | March 17th, 2013 | 9:21 am

    ya, really thank god i’m not religious.

  306. daveno | March 17th, 2013 | 1:57 pm

    so,whats the point of being peaceful and righteaous when you dont even have a piece of land to pee on and majority would back those resorting to violence to take back waht was rightfully theirs.
    And when those peaceloving supporter start to separate themselves from their own representative rather than being active to change the course of action by their representative, which could be possible given their democratic rights.

  307. gary beesley | March 17th, 2013 | 2:14 pm

    Most of what you say doesn’t make sense-follow HH and at least that way you will know you do the right thing Follow your anger and resentment and you make mistakes -truth always prevails-it just takes time

  308. An Observer | March 17th, 2013 | 8:29 pm

    # 300

    “Tibetans without basic manners and respect for the views of others exist at the same level as the Chinese”

    This is a very true statement.

    A lack of respect towards those westerners trying to help is an increasingly sad trend amongst the exiles. Many westerners have been turned off the Tibetan cause by the increasingly internecine nature of Tibetan exile politics. Ask yourselves, how many of the western “old hands” do you see still active? I’m not talking about the Dharma bums, but people of real capability?

    When there is a chance of western assistance, the Tibetan opportunists squabble amongst themselves for a slice of the action to get themselves noticed amongst HHDL’s court. Like seagulls fighting for the last fry, if there is a donor or opportunity they will be in there shamelessly squawking and back stabbing. And it seems if they don’t get what they want, then they play the victimhood card.

    So you Tibetans blame western countries for not helping? But why should they help now when you’ve refused their help in the past? The words of Frank Ludlow, the British schoolmaster at Gyantse in the 1920’s come to mind. He said the following when the Tibetan government foolishly closed the British run school –

    “Once the school is closed they will not open it again unless forces compel them to do so. And forces will compel them to do so eventually. How on earth can Tibet have a decent army, its post & telegraph, doctors, mechanics for their electric machinery, etc & etc unless it gives its sons some measure of a western education?
    The whole thing makes me weep, the work of 2 1/2 years thrown away! …

    Tibet plays like a child at new ideas, and like a child gets tired of its playthings & casts it aside. They will regret their decision one day when they are Chinese slaves once more, as they assuredly will be. China will recover in time and return.” (Ludlow Diary, 18 August 1926)

    These are not the words of an Imperialist, but someone who genuinely sort to help the Tibetans keep their identity, culture and independence.

    Let’s be clear, you had your chance in the past. Its you Tibetans that stuffed up.

    Don’t blame westerners. Blame yourselves, your traitors and your opportunists so easily swayed. You are still plagued by these people today. Be gone with them.

  309. NG | March 17th, 2013 | 9:42 pm

    @Observer: Those who call for Western help is just day dreaming, it will never come. The geopolitics is, you go there even if uninvited if it serves your interest. British came to Jamgtse not to preserve Tibetan identity, because they know shit about the Tibetan identity, British were old imperialist who believed sun never set on over the empire, it was part of the imperialist design of Britain. Of course, Tibetan government was rotten to the core especially kudras maintaining the luxurious life style and failing to make sturctural changes. If Tibet needs to survive, Tibetans need to work hard, not screaming in the streets and bask in the psychology of victimhood, imploring for help which is just as hard as to observe a star during the day time. Forget about a comfortable life in the west or migrating there, design a plan to migrate back to Tibet, and to do the fight if really want freedom, otherwise, shut the noisy fuck!

    At this moment, I only see double standard and big mouth exilees, never saw a serious fighter.

    NG

  310. NG | March 17th, 2013 | 9:47 pm

    @sonamtso:
    “ya, really thank god i’m not religious.”
    She is happy not a religious and claiming to be, but thanks “god”. Does she mean she is happy not to be a Buddhist, but religious of another choice and thanking the “god” of Christianity, Islam, Judiaism, Hinduism, or more? The kid is not talking with brain, she talks with emotions. Half and shallow knowledge is always dangerous and embarrassing.

    She is typical of xile education product….brain and mind is not synchronized which means something is truly wrong….

    NG

  311. sonamtso | March 17th, 2013 | 11:04 pm

    This “god” I’m talking about is the nature of god not the concept of god. yes, i’m exile educated. and thank “god” for that. no pun intended.

  312. gary beesley | March 18th, 2013 | 6:21 am

    Forget the past and who is to blame. The point is the future and the greatest weapons the Tibetans have to fight the dragon are Dharma and education. All the shouting and debate is just hot air

  313. ng | March 18th, 2013 | 2:50 pm

    Sonamtso@what is the difference between nature of god and concept of god? Aren’t both of them an abstract belief or concept? If you write “god”, then means world gods in the Buddhist and Hindu religious cosmology, if you write GOD then it is the “GOD” of Judeo-CHristian belief systems. Dont worry about you intended or not-intendd pun, I just see you are struggling with your belief, not knowing what you are actually saying. LOL

    NG

  314. sonamtso | March 18th, 2013 | 5:47 pm

    @ 313
    talkative man, keep quiet. don’t reply back.

  315. NG | March 18th, 2013 | 8:10 pm

    Sonamtso@lol….

  316. Dawa | March 18th, 2013 | 10:59 pm

    Let’s try our best to argue constructively. Lot of us who received Western education would say “Oh God” or “Thank God” etc without much thought. It’s just as some Tibetans from Tibet who came to India in the late 80′s used to say “Mao Tushi Tsetshu.”
    Those are just exclamations or swears. Nothing more.

    Young Tibetans should be encouraged to voice their opinions.

  317. gary beesley | March 19th, 2013 | 12:30 am

    ……about relevant topics please!

  318. uimperialistchina | March 19th, 2013 | 10:44 am

    Thank god I’m an atheist!

  319. GARY BEESLEY | March 19th, 2013 | 11:11 am

    Thank god there arent any trolls posting off-topic comments here!

  320. uimperialistchina | March 19th, 2013 | 11:30 am

    Amen!

  321. ng | March 19th, 2013 | 12:53 pm

    suck God’s dick and say amen in his ass….gold poops will come out and radiant pees will take you to kingdom of God, the GATE IS WIDE OPEN….

    NG – The Human

  322. ng | March 19th, 2013 | 12:59 pm

    Sucking God’s dick is as equal as sucking Whitemen’s Dick. Dont forget “Whitemen’s Burden” durng the era of colonialism. Sucking dick of Atheism is sucking the dick of Darwin and Dawkins. Dont suck and milk others, let other milk your dick….it will be a total different case! LOL…..be the leader, not a blind shitty and niave follower…

    ND

  323. GARY BEESLEY | March 19th, 2013 | 1:46 pm

    NG
    Thank you so much for your very valuable contribution
    Best wishes

  324. Dawa | March 19th, 2013 | 7:41 pm

    NG
    Please try not to use such expletives. I understand your frustration. We are all in similar situation. But all these graphic words don’t add to our discussion. It just turns people off.

    You have lot valid points. Just stick to that please.

  325. gary beesley | March 20th, 2013 | 9:52 am

    One things for sure-all the anger and expletives do absolutely nothing to help anyone and just cause me not to read NGs comments or take them seriously

  326. Luisa | April 4th, 2013 | 11:57 pm

    All my respect.. sometimes is good speak about yur “gods”

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