I wrote this piece over twenty years ago for the Tibetan Review. I am re-posting it now to give readers some idea of the origins of our current national debacle, especially the part played by foreign “advisors” and “friends” (and by extension the Chinese Intelligence Service, Guojia Anquan Bu,) in persuading us to give up our goal of Rangzen, and shut down the struggle. It is not as complete a study as all Tibetans really need, but that’s as much as I could put together at the time. Readers, even your most iffy scrap of information on the issue is welcome on the comment section. We absolutely need to get to the bottom of this unbelievable sellout. Part II of “Ending to Begin” will be be posted soon. JN
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Despite an unassailable world record of cruelty, violence and despotism throughout its long history, China, like Molière’s monster hypocrite Tartuffe, has always managed to maintain a rather enviable gift of ever renewable plausibility — at least till now. After the Tiananmen Square massacre though, it is just possible that this gift has finally become exhausted with abuse and overuse. I say “possible” because, in spite of the horror and indignation with which the world has reacted to the murder of the Chinese students, human memory — though reinforced by colour photographs of young Chinese heads flattened by tank tracks — is far too distressingly short; especially when it is in the interests of big business and realpolitik to make it so. Still, one must be grateful that the world has, for once, seen the real China.
However murderous the conduct of the Chinese leadership toward its young people, the global revelation of the tragedy has provided a fillip to those Tibetans who have not abandoned the hope of an independent Tibet. Being one of those “militants” or “extremists”, as the Tibetan ruling class and the international media have quite indiscriminately labelled any Tibetan who has objected to the casual surrendering of his country’s sovereignty, the events in China have not only buoyed my hopes for Tibet’s future, but also vindicated two much criticized, often ridiculed, yet long held convictions of mine.
The first of these has been that the Communist system in China is, and has always been, incapable of changing its essential nature. Certainly, this is not an original observation. George Orwell has often remarked on the basic unchanging nature of totalitarian systems, and the naivety of the people who would seek reform them from within. Jean-François Revel has, in How Democracies Perish, given a penetrating insight into how Deng’s so-called liberalization was “passed just far enough to save Communism, never far enough to begin transforming it, much less abandoning it.”
Simon Leys, “the most astute, the most elegant, the most corrosive — simply the best — of the contemporary China-lovers and China-watchers” (according to Susan Sontag), has, in his many essays, commented so exhaustively and discerningly on “the exact measure of the beast’s ability to change its stripes and its spots”, that anyone reading them could not help but see as I did, the essential lie of Deng’s “Brave New World”.
Another conviction I shared with Leys was that the “Communist regime was dead”; that China under Communist rule “appears more and more like a dead planet, it is on steady course, but the very nature of its political atmosphere prevents any kind of growth, and even seem to preclude the emergence of life; yet it will pursue its sterile and immutable course till a random collision makes it explode” (The Burning Forest).
For many years I had felt that China must fall, pace Marx, of its inherent contradictions. How was it possible for a nation where millions upon millions of people had been murdered by their own rulers (The Guinness Book of World Records ascribes the greatest massacre in history to the Communist Party of China : about sixty million killed from 1949 to 1970), where millions of others were tortured, humiliated and starved in bleak gulags in Manchuria and North Eastern Tibet — how was it possible to erase all this from a nation’s memory and start afresh on the road to capitalism and, perhaps, democracy.
It must not be forgotten that the denunciators, the informers, the torturers and the murderers were all still there — butter not melting in their mouths — living side by side with their old victims. Now, once again, these creatures of the Communist Party have emerged to carry on from where they left off, when the illusion of liberalization was first foisted upon the world.
In the euphoria subsequent to the fall of the “Gang of Four” and the advent of the Four Modernisations, my dual convictions were not the easiest to maintain, much less air, as I was normally prone to do at the least provocation, making my self a bit of a bore in drinking circles in Dharamshala.
All the Tibetan delegations that toured Tibet and China, though suitably lachrymose about conditions in Tibet, were tremendously impressed by developments in China. A relative of mine, who was a member of one of the early delegations, lectured me on his return about how outdated and Cold-Warish my ideas (as expressed in my articles in the Tibetan Review) were. China was going to catch up with Japan in ten years, he maintained confidently, and I was to mark his words. The Chinese were not like the Indians, he further pointed out to me. They were patriotic, organised, efficient and cultured; and only the Maoist straight-jacket had so far prevented them from realising their true potential. But under Deng there would be no stopping them.
I tried to put things in a historical perspective and argued that no society could be expected to change from such extremes of totalitarianism to capitalist-democracy overnight, especially when the same old Communist Party was running the show. I attempted to quote Simon Leys (who else?), but was sternly reprimanded for being bookish, as usual. He had seen China. He had seen the giant ultra-modern five-star hotels (better than any in New Delhi). He had seen the magnificent symphony orchestras with their members in black ties and tails (just like in the West) — and I had not. That settled my hash.
Everywhere in Tibetan society, especially the closer one got to ruling circles, there was a surge of optimism and rejoicing so infectious that it was a tremendous strain not to be carried away by it, especially when by so doing you were not only endorsing the official Dharamshala line but also improving your prospects of advancement in the hierarchy.
The Chinese leaders were now “reasonable people”. Hadn’t Hu Yaobang apologized for Chinese excesses in Tibet? It was surely just a question of time before they would see their mistake in alienating the Dalai Lama and come up with an acceptable compromise whereby some kind of “genuine” autonomy would be given to Tibet. The spirit of sweet reason being thus supposedly displayed by Chinese leaders was certainly reciprocated by Tibetan leaders. A Kashag minister told me that both the Tibetans and the Chinese had made mistakes but that it was now high time we patched up our differences. The absurdity of this facile comment saddened me. I wanted to argue with him, but I didn’t. I knew better. Sophistry was his element, as it was his Cabinet colleagues’. They were born to it, they breathed it, they could swim and fly in it, anything, except surface from it for even a minute and admit to reality.
Many other Tibetans found opportunities to do business with the Chinese. One group, “The International Fund for the Development of Tibet”, even went so far as to solicit funds from various aid agencies in the USA and Europe for influential collaborators in Tibet and their projects, in return for trading concessions from China for some of their own members.
The Tibetan government was busy trying to find a term or phrase under which it could preserve a scrap of dignity in its frantic efforts to effect a reconciliation with Beijing. “Genuine autonomy” was tried, but it smelt too strongly of the 17-Point Agreement, and was hastily dropped. “Confederation” enjoyed a brief vogue, but in the end everyone happily settled for “association”, which we will be getting back to later.
With all this, and many other feat of gratuitous self-deception — too many to mention here — performed with monotonous regularity since Deng came to power, it did not required any greater foresight to see that, sooner or later, Strasbourg had to come.
When it did, however, Tibetans were shocked. Unprecedently, there were open protest against the Dalai Lama’s Strasbourg Proposal from individuals and groups of Tibetan all over the world. Tibetan society everywhere was rife with rumours and speculation as to how such a disaster could ever have taken place. Nearly everyone was of the opinion that the Kashag was largely to blame for not given better advice to His Holiness. A fair bit of criticism was directly at the Dalai Lama’s brother, Gyalo Thondup. Though presumably long retired from Tibetan politics and settled in Hong Kong, he was, according to the Kashag White Paper issued in 1988, conducting his own reconciliation talks with Beijing — which the Tibetan government disowned.
My own views on the causes of our national lunacy have been aired far too often in the pages of the Tibetan Review to bear repeating. But this time a somewhat novel aspect of this mess has come to light which I feel would be well worth investigating. This is the matter of the “Foreign Hand”— as such things termed in India — in the formulation of Tibetan national policies. The first expression of public concern about this danger was voiced by Phuntsok Wangyal in his article, “Giving up the Struggle” (Tibetan Review) though, unfortunately, no details were provided.
In our eagerness to change the views of the Chinese leaders regarding Tibet, we have quite lost sight of the fact that they could be doing just the same to us : persuading us to give up our demands for independence. By this I do not mean the many public announcements by Chinese Leaders and their propaganda apparatus calling on those of us in exile to give up our “splittist” views and return to Tibet, but other indirect and far more insidious methods.
Anyone who has seen the Tony award winning play M. Butterfly, will realise that Communist China has, at least in one sphere of human activity, not entirely turned its back on its past. The story of the play could well have been lifted straight from the pages of a Chinese classic novel like Shui hu zhuan (literally “Marsh Chronicles”), and San guo yan yi (The Romance of the Three Kingdoms), which are not only action-packed historical tales, but virtual compendiums of various techniques of subterfuge, espionage, conspiracy and assassination, presumably indispensable in the pursuit of power in China. Mao himself has frequently acknowledged his great debt to these two novels.
M. Butterfly is based on the true story of a French diplomat posted to Beijing in the 1960’s, who fell in love with a beautiful Chinese opera star. For twenty years they carried on a love affair. When the diplomat returned to Paris, his lover, Soong, followed him — and continued to ask him for favours. These were not ordinary favours. They involved state secrets which the diplomat unknowingly passed on to his paramour during his long stay in China. But in Paris their luck ran out. The diplomat was arrested and soon learned the startling truth : his lover was a spy. “She” was also a man — a trained female impersonator.
I am not trying to a start a spy scare here in Dharamshala, but if Beijing is prepared to use so much ingenuity on just one French diplomat, it is frightening to contemplate how much more effort and cunning it would be prepared to expend on its old bugbear, the Tibetan government-in-exile. Quite possibly it would succeed — specially when, unlike the French, we have no counter-intelligence capability worth the name. But even if the top Chinese moles in Dharamshala were to remain undetected, there are other “unconscious agents”, to use the jargon of the trade, who are quite possibly being used by Beijing in its unwavering quest to undermine the Tibetan struggle for independence. It is probable that none of these “unconscious agents” think that they are, in any way, working for the Chinese. Some might genuinely feel that they are helping the Tibetan people.
In the early autumn of 1979, the former British prime minister, Edward Heath, took a trip to Tibet. According to John Fraser, the bureau chief in Beijing of the Toronto Globe and Mail, Heath had disgraced himself. “He went to Tibet and, according to eyewitnesses, did little but grumble about his accommodation. He saw virtually nothing of the real Tibet. When he returned to Beijing he took it upon himself to congratulate Vice-Premier Deng on the good work the Chinese were doing in Tibet, despite the fact that there was much evidence of a repressive colonial regime.” Shortly afterwards, Heath flew to San Francisco and sought an audience with the Dalai Lama, who was there on a visit at that time. Heath reportedly made lengthy and heavy handed attempts to coerce the Dalai Lama into dropping his struggle for a free Tibet, and into making his peace with the new leadership in China.
Another former British political personality who has offered similar advice to His Holiness is Lord Ennals, a former Foreign Office minister with a long record of friendship with China, who is considered to be an advisor to the Dalai Lama’s government. After his return to London from a visit to China and Tibet, he addressed a pro-Tibet rally in south London where, after describing the plight of the people in Tibet, he called on the Chinese leadership to “show imagination in the administration of their oldest territory”. (My italics. The Independent, Monday, 11 April 1988). After his return from Tibet, Ennals also came out with a report entitled Tibet in China. Though it is an informative document, there are passages in it that are not at all reassuring.
For instance, when the Chinese officials accused the Dalai Lama of seeking independence for Tibet, Ennals replied and “stressed” that “they misread the Dalai Lama, and that most outspoken calls we had found for independence came from within Tibet”. Ennals made his trip to Tibet at least a year before the Dalai Lama’s Strasbourg Proposal.
But the most disturbing passages in the entire document is in Ennals’ introduction where he states that :
For their part China has now become a constructive force for good, is playing a positive role in the world and has showing a high degree of statesmanship in its handling of the future of Hong Kong, a situation not totally dissimilar from Tibet.
Anyone who is not employed by the British Foreign Office knows very well what China’s handling of the future of Hong Kong is really all about. By wielding the trade whip it has ensured that Britain will permit no direct elections to Legco, the tame Hong Kong Parliament, and that the “Basic Laws” being drafted for Hong Kong for use after Britain’s departure in 1997, further ensure, in spite of the high-sounding Sino-British Joint Declaration of 1984 on which they are based, that in practice Beijing will be able to do as it pleases in Hong Kong.
It would be hard to find anyone in Hong Kong who does not believe that Britain has sold them out. Though many are fleeing the island, there are others who are demanding that as crown subjects, they be entitled to full British citizenship. Unwilling to let hordes of Chinese into the UK, the British government is doing its best to downplay the fears of Hong Kong residents.
Unfortunately, the issue of Tibet, a country to which, in the past, self government had also been promised, re-emerges continually to contradict Britain’s portrait of a benign, enlightened China. Newspaper reports and TV footage of unarmed demonstrators being shot in Tibet have done nothing to reassure Hong Kong citizens about their future. It would certainly be in Britain’s interest if the Tibetans gave up their demands for independence and lived quietly under Chinese rule. The fears of Hong Kong Chinese could then be more effectively assuaged, and the colony handed over to the China in 1997 without even a minor hiccup in trade relations between Britain and China. But the massacre at Tiananmen Square has put paid to all that.
Like many former political personalities, Jimmy Carter also made his pilgrimage to China, and the mandatory side-trip to Lhasa, a couple of years ago. He, too, found much to congratulate the Chinese leadership for in Tibet. Shortly after his trip, a Tibetan government office in Dharamshala received a letter from the “Carter Crisis Center”, offering to bring about a reconciliation between the Tibetans and the Chinese.
When in power, Carter, in spite of his much-vaunted initiative to formulate US foreign policy around human rights concerns, totally ignored the Tibetan question. Carter’s policy raised a great deal of hope among Tibetans, and many petitions from the Tibetan government-in-exile and other organization were submitted to him. During a hunger strike by Tibetans before the office of UN representative in Delhi in 1977, even the American Embassy was sufficiently moved to receive a delegation from the hunger strikers’ organisation. The first secretary not only accepted a petition for President Carter, but also discussed the Tibetan issue with members of the delegation.
But Carter’s stand on China was essentially one of absolute appeasement, even when the traditional American balance of interest between Taipei and Beijing was rashly and irresponsibly destabilized after Carter’s hasty and ill thought-out “normalization” with Beijing. Not only did this embolden Deng to carry out his attack on Vietnam, but, according to John Fraser in Beijing :
The normalization announcement came on the eve of important election in Taiwan that would have marked a real breakthrough in the democracy movement there. The American action gave the Kuomintang the opportunity to raise the specter of “national security”, and the elections were postponed. Although the American government had given generous support to Taiwan for years, the manner of its leave-taking was ignoble, and the timing was close to criminal.
What, then, are we to conclude, when it is clear that Jimmy Carter has definitely influenced the Dalai Lama’s Strasbourg Proposal? He is the only individual named in the entire document. He is, also, thanked for his “keen interest” in the Tibetan situation.
Simon Leys consider Carter to be “a fool with initiative” (The New Republic, 10 March 1979). He derives this comparison from an old Russian proverb which says, “to have a fool is bad, but to have a fool with initiative is worse”. Leys further informs us that “for all the expertise displayed in Carter’s China policy, it could well have been designed by Shirley MacLaine.”
Which now brings us to this famous film star and New Age high priestess. Ms. MacLaine also travelled to China where she met a former nuclear physicist on a farming commune. She was tremendously impressed by him when he told her that growing cabbages was just as important as the work he used to do in a laboratory.
Ms. MacLaine has also made public that her lover was the Dalai Lama’s “right hand man”. To be fair, Michael Van Walt Van Praag, doesn’t always refer to himself in the above manner; a more modest, “Dalai Lama’s Lawyer”, being the preferred designation under which he has been long involved with the Tibetan leadership. He is also known to be one of the Dalai Lama’s main political advisors.
To know the nature of Van Walt’s advice to His Holiness one has to read his book The Status of Tibet. It is largely a resumé of Tibet’s history and legal status; that in conclusion, advocates Tibet giving up its sovereignty and becoming a part of China under the concept of “association”. This same exact term was used in the Strasbourg Proposal a couple of year later. Having graduated in international law, Van Walt does not lack legal gobbledegook to prop up his proposal. In all fairness, I am prepared to admit that such a subtle concept as “association” might probably work in Iceland, Switzerland, Austria and other countries that Van Walt mentions as examples in his book. But I do feel that it is too fine a concept for a tyranny such as China, where t54 tanks are used to squash those reckless enough to demand even a minimal accountability of their leaders.
Yet when all’s said and done, I really cannot blame Van Walt or other foreign advisors for our present state of affairs. Though in the past we made the mistake of being absolutely suspicious of all foreigners, it does not help things now to be absolutely trusting of them either. Tibetan national policies must be formulated by Tibetans to serve Tibetan interests; though these need not necessarily be narrow xenophobic ones. I am sure that any real friend of Tibet would not take offense if he or she were not consulted on matters of high policy, and would support the cause of an independent Tibet even if he or she were not officially appointed an advisor to the Dalai Lama.
If expert advice on whatever subject is needed by the Tibetan government (which it no doubt does) I, for one, would not hesitate to say that we should seek it from genuine experts elsewhere, if none are available from within the Tibetan community.
There are thousand of true supporters of the Tibetan cause all over the world, and it is in the interests of Tibetans to see that the contribution of these friends are not in the end misrepresented by the antics of a few “Lawrences” of Tibet, and washed-up Western politicians seeking lucrative sinecures by pandering to China.
August 1989, Tibetan Review
Great piece Jamyang la. Still waiting for Part II of “Ending to Begin”. However, don’t be in a hurry. I’m sure you won’t be as usual.Thank you for sharing this article. Can you also post other articles as well?
Thank you for the insightful article. Aren’t we stupid?????? one thing for sure, too gullible with what the westerners/foreigners says while remaining so suspicious of our own people.
There are some, even in this forum too, still not awaken by the secrets of the China’s grand designs.
Wake up guys or perish.
Yours agu.
Waiting for your “ending to begin” part II.
One news::::: Samdhong doesn’t want to go out of Dhasa, so he asked if he can find something to do in Private office. Of course, HH can’t refuse-Samdhong was our Katri.
So FYI, Samdhong will be in dhasa and watching over LS and others not be change his policies or criticise or dig his mistake. Less, you’ll be in trouble.
Aku-Tonpa, what I feel is that over the years TYC should have played more proactive role in promoting Rangzen fever around the world. In fact she is more like dead party nowadays. TYC’s central executives are paid members and they’re doing nothing. We don’t see any news steming out from their side except internal conflicts. In fact SFT (STUDENTS for a Free Tibet) is far better than TYC.
After Tsetan Norbu and Karma Yeshi term, TYC has been as weak as dragon’s fly.
Thank you Jamyang la for this piece that I hope those too young when first published can read today.
The only area where I disagree with you is the ‘air’ of despair that seems to emanate from your piece that all is lost.
Tibet belongs to those back home and us in exile and only the collective WE can decide the future of our country.
The ‘Strasbourg Proposal’ in my view is an illegal document.Our rights to Rangzen cannot be given away by an individual,group,committee or for that matter an organization.
Tashi, what do u expect TYC to do when everthing they do are nullified
and contradicted by their own govt? When TYC shouts for independence
Tibetan Diktsug ask for autonomy, when they go on hunger strikes, they
are requestdd to stop by kundun, when they go on a protest, people are
asked not show up and instead pray , when they criticize the policies of
Middlwway, they are called extemists and more dangerous than either Chinese
or shugden etc nauseam. How do u expect one to play soccer when
your own defense are in accord with the enemy? Now, no matter how much
poetic reasons u can come in defense of middleway, you know it started
on the flimiest of reason capacity and understanding of repolitik , a term too
often misused by these very people to champion thier cause these days. Ironic.
SFT leaders , even regional heads are paid a lot more than TYC centric
members can ever dream about. This is not to belittle SFT because it is
a fine organization and something to be proud of but its main job is inform
people about Tibet the legitfimacy of rangzen and teach young kids how
to protest effectively. Moreover, it cant and should not have a say in govt
matters as a huge portion of its membership are not Tibetans. Both great
organizations but a little different agenda.
Tsering Dolker, it is all about timing and media nowadays. Two SFT activist climbed golden gate bridge in San Francisco and sparked media frenzy around the world. We do not necessarily need to come in thousands to create awareness among the mass. How about two paid executives climbing Qutob Minar to attract media? TYC submitting their statement in Tibetan during the recent International youth gathering was another blunder.
I dont think catching media’s attention is the end goal, however enticing
it might appear, although i agree that is a good part of it. I think we
Should not mistaken media as the goal as much as getting the right
people to represent us in the media. That was the problem during the
Olympics where we generated media spots but at the same time we
We paid no attention who represented at those talks during the shows
wherein we got assasine folks who managed to simply take the wind
out of the sail of those clever antics. Having a doctorate does not impart genuine
knowledge necessarily and it could just mean consummate professionals
who have constipation for passion and feelings.
I think u also forgot to mention some stints in beijing which were
Impressve as well. Some of those were possible due to the very
fact that most of them were not Tibetans, which sort of underlies
the necessity of such an organization. At the same time, some of the
Slogans were quite contradictory during the olympics when they
Ask Hu to speak to HH when he stands for middleway. It wouldnt
be noticed by the main stream media but it does show a little lack
of understanding the goal of the organization among other things.
There are other stuffs that point to that amongst the leaders but
i like the organization and dont want to bad mouth it. I think of it
as the little brother of TYC. TYC have also made some mistakes
and it seems like it was used by some oppprtunists to further their
own personal goals than the national one which i am observing in Sft
these days unfortunately, as jamyang la correctly termed as self- serving
resume building endeavors. I think it is understandable and most
probably inevitable in any organization. I believe Tsawang la is a
good leader, who harkens back to the glory of the past and TYC
is back on track.
Tsering Dolker, can you list ten commentable things TYC did for last five years? Tenzin Tsundue la and Lhadon la are million times more effective than the whole TYC members put together. TYC truely lacks inovative leadership at this point of time.
I am not playing this game, Tashi. It serves
Nothing since both organization are for Rangzen.
I think the real issue is how to make use of
of media attention once u do manage to generate
some interest. We need to make sure we have
our own people represented instead of middlepathers
Who proclaim publicly that they are proud citizens
of China and ask others to butt out of the
internal affairs of China or even worse have China
apologists who will derail and minimize the
sacrifices of our martyrs to mere economic
concerns or have our own elites belittle our
and betray our people on international tv for
some pet projects of theirs.
Otherwise, all these stunts means nothing and
moreover shows some serious lack of understanding of the
main objectives of the movements. That is the area that needs
to be addressed in the future.
no fucking part two period
@Tsering Dolker, Can you elucidate on these raw statements you made in your earlier post, 1. “Ask Hu to speak to HH when he stands for middleway” Obviously by SFT. Comment: If it is wrong to call and demand CHINA to talk to HHDL, then to whom we demand China should talk to?
2. “We need to make sure we have
our own people represented instead of middlepathers who proclaim publicly that they are proud citizens of China”. Comment:Do you really think so called middle-pathers kicked rangzen wallas butt out from media spotlight and stifle their aspirations or it is lack of rangzen wallas initiatives and lack of innovations or ignored by people who conduct the interviews? Which middle-pathers proudly claimed the citizens of PRC? or Such a statement is being made in certain conditional political context or somebody just blindly stated that “he/she is a proud citizen of PRC”? I think it is high time to stop this nonsense arguments and blame game while one is doing what is good for personal wellbeing instead of the so called 6-million Tibetans. Plz dont lecture me about TYC, I have been a RTYC member and participated in many events organized by the same organization (also being the organizers) even before joining as an excutive. So I am pretty informed about ugly politics in TYC centrix and their use of local RTYC as scapegoat for there personal agendas, I have a record of all these bullshit blame-game emails inside the TYC Centric and bullshit divisionist people in the local community too. I am happy that I did not give damn shit about these narrow-minded and self-righteous arguments about one’s goal as Middle Path versus Rangzen, RTYC versus SFT….what the fuck is it? I did work and organized with the welbeing of Tibetans in Tibet and truly believe these folks are the real owner of the lang of snow and I will go by whatever decision they choose for the future of Tibet. Therefore, I do understand who is just doing the talk and who is real.
To represent Rangzen wallas, the best persona is JN as an activist, writer, and academician. JN himself is kind of sidelined in any of the academic conferences relating to Tibet whether politics, religion, culture, history, or what not organized by intellectual and academic circles in the west, even Tibetan Government {please save your Tibetan Drikzu as you mock around about this term and as you only understand it, I personally prefer Tibetan Government no matter the Government changed it in view of larger pictures…so i am not bothered about it!} does not invite JN for consultation and their conferences on Tibet, why is that? The platform JN gets is invitation to a local RTYC talk or SFT talk, and give the same talk again and again about the legitimacy of Tibet’s independence for the same crowd again and again. Therefore, if rangzen wallas want to represent their ideals, then make an extra effort to make it appealing to others, be it media, conferences organizers, or what not. Otherwise, whining in privacy of internet will not transform the bad habit of the organization as well as people who pretend to be the best person on earth to represent 6 millions+ Tibetans. By the way, coming Friday, JN is a guest speaker at SFT’s Lonsho event in NewYork, his topic will be on the history and legitimacy of Tibetan sovereignty. Of course, we had enough of this information from hearing to reading. Too many repetition also make others to find loophole in the argument also…..
Anyway, whoever is free and find time and live near by, it will be great to support one of our supporter’s organizations and to meet innovative , inspiring, and educated folks outwhere. To put it little low, go to have fun and socialize, your money will not be wasted…..
WHEN: Saturday, August 20th
VENUE: Sagarmatha
62-02 Roosevelt Ave. Woodside, NY 11377
2-4pm: RANGZEN PRESENTATION
Multimedia presentation by Jamyang Norbu on the history and legitimacy of Tibetan sovereignty.
6-10pm: LONGSHO CONCERT III
Techung, foremost Tibetan singer/songwriter
Jamyang Norbu, award-winning writer, lyricist and intellectual
Paljor, founder & leader of Rangzen Shonu
Choeying, lead guitarist for “The Splittists”
Presentation of Lhakar Awards 2011
NG
Michael Van Walt’s book, The Status of Tibet, was financed by Dharamsala by means of paying for his position at a DC law firm. He claims to be an independent scholar but his book was commissioned by Dharamsala and thus cannot be regarded as objective. His argument is essentially that the archaic type of relaitonship that Tibet once had with China could be repackaged as “association,” a form of autonomy, and was not archaic at all but a model for the future. Van Walt was paid to write up a legal justification of how Dharamsala could promote its traditional Cho-Yon, or Patron-Priest policy as “genuine autonomy.” The problem is that autonomy of the type that Tibet once enjoyed is a relic of an era when states like China did not yet have the ability to actually administer the areas that they claimed. Now they do and the time when autonomy of that type was possible is long gone.
NewgenerationTB: We know at least one middlepathers proudly claiming to become a citizen of PRC, HHDL:
I can’t wait to be a Chinese citizen, says the Dalai Lama
http://journalisted.com/article/be23
sagarmatha’s second floor hall is, the owner said, big enough for 475 people n its cheap. all u got to pay is around $12 per meal n talk there for 5 hours n no problem but a controversy is associated with it for 3 years now as a result the business suffered. the owner is no longer the tibetan monk shugyi(who was threatening the tibetan community before ex ny dhonchoe tashi wangdi by becoming the tools of ccp) but a pure aryan stock hindhu nepalese. despite that, is it safe to go there in light of the fact that some folks might scandalize people who go there? i m sure we are prepared with solid answers if thats the venue but what are they? any one let us know.
Gyaltsen Nobru, you did not even read in between the lines maybe it is due to the fact that English is not our mother tongue….read it again! “I can’t wait to be a Chinese citizen”, it means he is not yet a citizen of PRC, but he is looking forward it on the condition that Rights of Tibetan People Inside Tibet are respected and Negotiation is done according to Middle Way. Therefore, dont put your word and false interpretation into someone’s mouth. We are intelligent enough to see what is said in what context and what is not.
NG
NewgenerationTB: Rhetoric, only rhetoric. What do you make of HHDL statement “We are very much happy to REMAIN within the People’s Republic of China”? Is he looking forward, on the condition that Rights of Tibetan People Inside Tibet are respected and Negotiation is done according to Middle Way as you naively put it?
When a leader surrender his country and look forward to be a citizen of the worst totalitarian regime in the world, I call that a betrayal and a shame!
Gyaltsen Norbu, you are the one who’s been playing rhetoric, I don’t understand you people. You call who a betrayal and a shame? HHDL? Give me a break,you pitiful wretch. My English sucks, but even I was able to understand that part of HHDL’s speech. Go back to school and learn your English good, or go to a doctor and let him examine your brain cause your left brain has nothing right, and your right brain has nothing left. Stop blaming HHDL!!! What are “you” doing for your country? Nothing at all. Come to India and do something or else shut the f###ing month!
Guys,
Stop Arguing for a minute and ponder about this fact- This article was written over 20 years ago!
This Rangzenwala shows a remarkable insight into tibetan politics. It just reminded us that we don’t have to be a monk, fortune-teller or clairvoyant to see what is happening and will happen.
Don’t become Emotional.
Opinions are Opinions, It will not become a Fact.
All opinions are Welcomed by JN as you can see.
Curse words won’t serve any purpose but a mischief and vanity.
Yours Agu
gyaltsen norbu,
Count me IN !! i can’t wait to become a chinese.
By the way, SFT President Tendor can be seen live now (3:30 pm Eastern Standard time in USA) discussing Tibet’s future at http://stream.aljazeera.com.
HEY DAVENO, MIND IT! MANY PEOPLE HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES FOR OUR CAUSE AND SUCH CALLOUS UTTERANCES WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
DICTATOR PO PASANG!
LO-LOSEE.
@Gyaltsen Norbu,
“What do you make of HHDL statement “We are very much happy to REMAIN within the People’s Republic of China”? ”
Comment:I am still figuring out a condition attached to it, you need to look and read carefully, HHDL said “we are very much happy TO Remain within the PRC”, it means we are not happy yet. Obviously he did not say “We are happy within the PRC” which is totally different. Whether the condition is mentioned explicitly or not, HHDL’s position is Middle-Way, the articles of Middle Way designed to challenge Chinese Government of their own constitution and especially law regarding to the so called “Minorities” and Tibetans in particular. What is special demand in the Middle-Way, but not inside the Chinese constituion, which is historically implausible [Tibet under Ganden Podrang] is the “definition of Tibet”. Middle Way’s notion of Tibet is comprised of traditional regions of Tibet, which was not always governed politically by Tibetan Government. Therefore, in practical terms, it is kind of exchange between sovereignty and re-unification of historical Tibet plus absolute internal freedom. Whether such an offer will be settled or not, hard to say. So far, did not work out. What future holds, nobody knows.
NG:For your info, you need to read more beyond the few headlines in western papers and immediately start forming your own opinions from the comfort of your home. Since you are Tibetan, you are supposed to know these things and should be able to put those sensationalized headlines into perspectives and context. Otherwise, you are no different from an aliens in terms of understanding and interpreting those statements.
“When a leader surrender his country and look forward to be a citizen of the worst totalitarian regime in the world, I call that a betrayal and a shame!”
Comments: LOL, you are right he surrendered Tibet before 1949, the U-PA and Tsang regions, definitely not surrendered by Amdo and Kham regions which was already governed by China. However, Dalai Lama is trying to get back the traditional Tibet under current dire situation in Tibet and under the unfavorable international geopolitical situation for Tibet, where very civilization of Tibetan descent is under threat in Tibet, because he understands politics changes, however destruction of culture and eradication of race has no cure. He understands that Tibetans in the west with all the freedom from fear and persecution, dont speak their own language properly, cannot read and write their own language, dont have passiona for their own language, culture, history, religion, spiritual civilization, and so forth, cannot embrace their own culture and civilization. He understands all the exilees are kind of Skin deep Tibetan with no Tibetan content and people with selfish interest, whose children are no less than ordinary people of the land where they are grown up. So he understands, leaving Tibetan cause in the hands of such irresponsible generations will not a wise option for Tibet’s Future and future of Tibetans in the land of Snow is too dark! He understands that Tibetan from Nepal act and speak like Nepalis, Tibetans from India act and speak like Indians, TIbetans from Bhutan acts and speaks like Bhutanese, and Tibetans from the West act and speak like Westerners, who lack real passion, but having a temporary passion and rhetorics since only one generations is passed, and smells of Tibet is still left at few corners of of their blood vessels. He understands that after two generations, these people are no different from any other people in the west or east who only cares for own comfort. He understands that the fact, as long as Tibetan as a civilization survives with distinct people (Please dont accuse me of racist for supporting racial purity because you learn about racism in the west or read in the newspapers, the fact is fact, and it is painful to acknowledge, it is true!), when the right moment strikes, future generations in the land of snow will jump for it if they choose to because foundation is laid firmly. But for that to occur, you have to save your own very existence from destruction. People like you, will bark and bark, and will eventually die in a foreign land and your kids will be no more than freaking another lost soul in the west or east who is suffering from identity crisis. Do you think your coward barking from the comfort of your home can save Tibet and its people? Do you think barking can alleviate the much needed suffering of Tibetans in Tibet? Do you actually spend few hours for Tibet and its oppressed people in the land of snow every day except reading of few headlines and writing few irresponsible statements on the net as you are the only concerned warrior for Tibet? I am not much disturbed by your opinions because we are practicing democracy, but I am truly disturbed by the way you put stuffs without any context, the niavity and ignorance of you as a person runs through your writings.
NG
Newgeneration, glad to u are caring yet again for the Tibetan cause.
But it would proper of u stop putting words in my mouth and
then going on your usual holier than thou attitude tirade.
Comment: when did I say who should talk to who? My concern
is the understanding of the basic fundamentals of a movement
moreso than who should or should not talk with whom, as if
my voice has any gravity in it whatsoever. If ur call is for total
independence, then does it make any sense for u to ask China
to talk to Dalai Lama who stands for Middleway? Please tell
me your supreme brain can comprehend this basic logic which
might help in making sense next time u decide write some more
nonsense.
Thebsecond issue is another one of your convenient interpretation
which i did not say. My criticism was of Rangzen poeple actually
where we fail to do followup and think just getting news coverage
is enough for the movement. U should be quite happy that I
criticized my rangzen comrades instead of your precious movement
of negotiating even our underwears away. U said you are going
to follow whatever the people inTibet might decide, but u seem to
have selective hearIng when it comes down to it. Even the calls
For rangzen you have managed to camouflage with assumptions
and conjectures as if u cannot READ BETWEEN the lines yourself
much less comPletely ignore actual calls for it and the display of
our national flag. But that is the classic Middlepathers who cannot
separate religion and country or between Kundun and his political
policies. See Daveno over there. Another case of somebody
who is willing to go even beyond Kundun policy and readily proclaim
himself a proud chinese. We have Jabchung people like that too.
So, go ahead and tell us how exile tibetans are all good for nothing
except for u and Daveno. We just know u guys are simply a little
slow and take no offense. I think u need a hug. ***Hug***
tsering dolkar, i always enjoy ur comments. coz it makes sense. thnx. fuk daveno, ccp, middlepathers n the rest real hard! of course with more facts, examples, citations, evidence and supporting reasons. more analytical skills n less rhetorics which btw occupy half the fat ass book of middle way proposal(n acting as if the ball is now in chinese court! how ludicrous to act successful by producing a book with a long list of items begged!). mw’s demands like deportation of chinese back to china, prevention of population transfer, “greater tibet” one administration etc are as “impossible” as independence. cry begging, die begging.
Ama tsering dolkar,Thanks for noticing me over there by throwing ‘japchung’ net with Rangzen label on it.
Me Japchung:You japchung, classical midpather: modern midpather.All these are the voices of arrogant “Kangchak” who cannot achieve anything but shout and assume dictatorial ownership of those near and dear one.
Myfriend GRangzen,How are doing these days?
Tsering Dolker, rangzenwalas are failing not because of middle path propositions and proponents. It is failing largely due to the crippled leadership of TYC executives for the last one decade or so. I really don’t think that His Holiness, Samdong Rinpoche and their exile setups in the heart of their hearts will want TYC be muzzled out for good. Middle path proponents from time and again reiterated that they are not against TYC. Therefore blaming middle way proponent as a rangzen hinders makes no sense at all. What is more dangerous is people like you who make wrong diagnosis of the whole situation and come to a bizzare conclusion. Bod Gyalo!
Gyami daveno, i am surprised you dont feel
hot coals burning in your lungs as u proudly
claim your chinese citizenship. To those Tibetans
in Tibet, i am sure it is no laughing matter as
they were willing to self immolate themselves
fir the sake of all Tibetans. Ngabo died a hero
to some people and i am sure you will be next
in line. I understand why H H might mention that but
pretentious people like cannot claim his
enlightenment and thereby to proudly claim
such a title shows how depraved a person you
Really are.
@Tashi: u need to learn how to read properly
think and finally reply. I was actually criticizing
all rangzenwalas, including me, for the lack of
foresight and also showing you that getting
attention by the media is not enough and should
not be the end goal. HH sincerely wouldnt mind
rangzenwalas around but i cant say the same
for the rest. Middlepathers reiterated they are
not against TYC? So wat? China claims they
have a paradise in Tibet. Ask Daveno, he will
fill u ib with the details. Is that why Rinpoche
was calling us more dangerous than Chinese and
Dogyal worshippers? Forget it, u are not going to
Convince me he meant some aliens who are on
this planet to kill off humanity since that would be
actually more dangerous than that. remember the blame games
for the failure of talks with China where Rangzenwalas
are shameslessly blamed for it without the
slightest consideration it could actually their
own niave policy. Did u even read this essay
written by JAmyang la 20 years ago! It just goes
to show u how a few well placed people could
muster the desired conclusion.
Tsering Dolker, thank you for your reply. But you didn’t answer my question. My point is that TYC executives (paid) are largely to be blamed for the failing rangzen campaign and not the TGE and HHDL.
@Tsering Dolker: I did not pretend holier than anyone else. I just spoke fact about skin-deep Tibetans in exile. If you are honest, then you walk around Tibetan community gathering and protest, observe, listen, and then talk…..it wont be too long “Tibetan” will be a label only. If you keep on defending the current behaviors, then the community will be over in 50 years…..another 50 years in Tibet….any sane individual know given the present trend in Tibet.
Of course you did not mention whom should China talk to and I did not even say you mentioned it, but you clearly mentioned, “Ask Hu to speak to HH when he stands for middleway?”, you certainly found out it is wrong for invoking the very name of Dalai lama itself for Dialogue coz he represent Middle Way. If you find it wrong, then there must be a solution to it, which is that there must be a figure to whom China can talk to or rangzenwallas should have a public figure whom rangzen wallas consider suitable for the talk between HU and the person. Therefore, I simply asked a question who is the person shall rangzen wallas tell Hu to to talk to. I am not putting my words down your throat, simply asked a question. If you cannot answer, then be frank and honest about it. Your quick defensive and denial attitude itself tells something about the person who cannot stand a simple question. If dont have the solution, then your supreme brain is kind of useless for having seeing an apparent contradiction that most people with an educated mind can see over the years. Maybe, it is better for you to start pondering on the solution before you open your mouth because there are so many questions awaiting. Everyone know the apparent contradition, but no one has a solution for it. Even Rangzen guru Jamyang Norbu invokes Kundun’s name into his speech whenever necessary although lately he turned himself into a conspiracy theorist for a bunch of niave followers.
I am neither happy nor unhappy if you support rangzen wallas or criticize them. That’s simply not me and not my style. What I despise most about big mouth rangzen wallas is lack of practical actions and innovations, but diligently creating negative campaigns and rumours, and proclaiming oneself as the keeper of Tibetan Causse. Ultimately, it is not the speech that matters, but at end of the day, it is the action that yields results. So now, it is time for rangzen wallas to translate speech into actions, it is time to come out and act rather then be the supreme warrior from behind the computer screen if you want people to take you seriously.
Look at situation recently when there is a prayer for Tsewang’s self-immolation, people who turned out there are mostly people who directly came from Tibet. It is revealing for the fact that exile born Tibs can be counted on fingure tips (even this small number is represented by earlier RTYC executives). Even look at the protest at Chinese embassy, those people who come will come, most people are from Tibet because it immdiately involves their relatives, freidns, and so forth, rest do not give damn shit about it. Because of it, recently, current excutives of RTYC cancelled protesting in front of Chinese embassy due to lack of people.
Earlier this year, when there is a self-immolation at Kirthi monastery, most of the protests are organized by amdo kyiduks and majority of the people who attend daily protest are amdowas. Even one of my khampa friends agreed for such a shameful ingoring attitude from rest of the community.
Believe me, I went through similar experiences when as one of the acting executives. It is heartbreaking to see people who talk big, but no action in real. Big talk only reserved at drinking and partying times, or at comfort of tea houses. But not in the right places.
Think about about it, what do we do in exile for the cause of Tibet in a meaningful way on daily basis? Except protesting, there is hardly any other stories can be dug out. This is the only program we have for the lofty goal of Tibetan independence or autonomy, lets call it Tibetan Cause. If you cannot even turn out and support these protests, the only mean of struggling for freedom, the only mean of advocating our goal, then it tells something about the person as well as about the community. Often we forget to do self-reflections, but pointing fingures to somewhere else. Especially, most Rangzen wallas citing self-immolation to monks’ protests as evidene of rangzen and independence, but if you failed to come and support an event dedicated for such dedicated beings, then there must be wrong with those who cites these evidences.
“U said you are going to follow whatever the people in Tibet might decide, but u seem to
have selective hearIng when it comes down to it”
Comment: My basic belief is there are so many voices from Tibet, some people only call for freedom, few people call for independence, majority call for the return of HHDL. Therefore, framing every voices under rangzen as JN and his groups claim is not consistent with reality. There is a gray areas and truth of those voices lies somewhere else. When I mentioned that I will go with whatever people in Tibet decide, I meant I will work in my capacity for the welfare of our brethrens in Tibet, when there will be a final solution for Tibet in the future, I will go with their decision. Sorry for not being clear about it, I hope I now made it clearer.
I thought rangzen wallas would put up a candidate for the post of PM or Kalon Tripa (dont argue about this conventional label coz every informed individual knows it, I am not interested in debating about it here), but they failed. If opportunities arise, you don’t take it, then it tells something about the group. Even JN did not name a candidate if he really wants to restore rangzen as the official policy, instead he started a campaign of denigration of PM Lobsang Sangay whenever an opportunity presented. It is heart-warming to see a considered rangzen guru giving into petty politics with a surprisingly questionable motives. When TNT lost the game, he is all in full conspiracy theory about timing of HHDL’s resignation announcement to how and why he made such a so called drastic decision, to how Dalai Lama should retire into a hut as a Buddhist meditators do in the remote areas, he explicitly named previous Dalai Lamas, and even accussed HHDL of treating Tibet as personal property. I was not surprised his hurlings of accussations and conspiracy theories because he has been laying the ground for a lonng time in his essays if one has the acumen and educated mind to see it.
“But that is the classic Middlepathers who cannot separate religion and country or between Kundun and his political policies.”
Comment:You should point out who cannot and do not want to separate religion and politics. Here I am representing myself, not anyone else. I dont believe in religion as such that our forefathers do, beating drums and clashing cymbals, reading mantras and walking around temples, prostrating and reading scriptures while ones every day behave is totally opposite to what one is doing. I consider Buddhism as a philosophy, a way of life to live. Therefore, for me, there is no trouble in separating religion from politics because I dont believe in religion at the first place. I do support Kundun’s approach not because of his as a being (what we consider he is), but because it is consistent with changing realities of 21st century, I support it not because it is a beautiful philosophy or a niave politics, but it is consistent with grim reality and wishes of many people in Tibet. It is consistent with the fact that our only means of freedom struggle, the CLASSIC PROTESTS OF SHOUTING lung out, for the past 50+ years in exile and yielded no result. It is consistent with the fact that Tibetan as people will sink into melting pot of western world and racial integration {pew, we have excuse of freedom of choice of parners, spare me of racism because I am talking of in the context of Tibet and its struggle, I am not seeing any one race above any other races}, it is consistent with the fact that uniqueness and civilizaation of Tibet will be dead inside Tibet as well as outside Tibet. So, it is urgent to find a solution.
NG
@ Newgeneration, I don’t agree with you that Rangzenwala’s logic is something that is inconsistent with the true aspiration of Tibetans living in Tibet. ‘Free Tibet’, ‘Long Live HHDL’ and ‘HHDL’s return to Tibet’ are three slogans they used consistently throughout the numerous demonstartions. When you say Rangzenwala, it would be more appropriate if you specify and narrow down your target. I, for that matter always and will blame the executives of the TYC who are paid to carry on Rangzen activism that too on a free soil. In any history of the world, have you ever heard of paid freedom fighters?
Rangzenwala may not have definite candidate for the Kalon tripa as well as stretegy at this point of time, however, middlepathers are also on the equal footing when it comes to stretegy. China don’t accept Tibet as the consolidated landmass of Dotoe, Domey and Utsang and we’re seeking autonomy for Tibet that is not existed for them. When both of the stretegies are bumpy and rough, I chose what my heart and mind speaks out- ‘Rangzen’.
Even Gandhi was not 100 % sure that India will be freed if people took to his advice and stretegy. Histories around the world shows that when it comes to a nation and people’s freedom, there is no bullet proof formulae to prescribe other than keeping our issue alive.
Let’s not forget that the current situation arises only due to China’s brutal occupation of Tibet. RANGZEN.
Newgeneration: Like i mentioned before, that question regarding
who should speak with whom was not the focus of my concern as
Much as people understanding what their goals are and what they
stand for. U just took it to mean China shouldnt talk to HH and
conjoiner that if not HH then who. My solution is do not shout that
as ur slogan if u stand for Rangzen. it is pretty basic and does not
need a lot of hair pulling exercises to come up with a solution and I
Dont understand why u keep bringing it up.
Good to know u finally admit u are a middlepather instead of
pretending to be a rangzen supporter. This brings up the question
of what u were doing in RTYC and could u actually be part of the
reason why it was dsyfunctional for a while? There were a lot of
people who misuse the movement to further their own goals and
boast their resume. A spy in the midst of the organization?
Ur assertion that it is due to Tibetan peopls lack of dedication to
the cuase that resulted in such piss poor attendance during
demonstrations is dead wrong. It was the division of the movement
into capitulation vs demanding what is rightfully ours and the
deliberate sabotage of the movement by middlepathers that brought
About this lack lustre response to the cuase itself. Prime minister himself
requested Tibetan people to stop protesting against the Chinese
dignitaries when they visit westrn countries and during Olympics.
I am sure there were many more examPles like that where people’s
enthusiasm for the cause were pissed upon by poeple like Daveno
who are so eager to become Chinese they will even blame their
own people for the failure of the talks. everybody knows rangzen
people are blamed for the failure of the talks instead of accepting
the fundamental truth that we were tricked and we have been taken
for a ride in the Limoisine called bait and switch. They are using
the classic lure them, give them hope, make them fight amongst
themselves and then win the fight without fightinh at all. Middlepath
policy is soon going to come up on the 25th or 30th anniversary
depending how u count it and we got nothing for selling our soul
to the devil. Tashi is right, where is the result? It should have been
An easy sale, right?
Rangzen eat my dad’s more than 2 decade of hope with SHINGMENDHA as an inspiration, middle path eat my more than 2 decade of hope for an identity.
Ramaluk tsering dolkar, do not bring in the action of those in Tibet. Speak for yourself and what did u do to help keep our culture and identity untill however we get back to our home.
@Tsering Dolker, I agree with you. Having lived in both sides of the ocean, what I had learned is that Tibetans are definitely at the higher ground when it comes to altruism and issue although we’ve limitations. Having said that I understand that no race is above others. I am talking in general.
I always feel proud to call myself a Tibetan. Around the world, wherever there are Tibetans, no matter how many, we’ll always find either TIbetan associations, TYC or any other groups although we do indulge in gossips and petty things which is a part of every human society.
One important thing that I would like to mention here is during the TYC’s much hyped mass gathering in Delhi in 2007. There were accounts of people seeing few monks carrying gasolene under their robe. All they needed was a comand to go for self immolation. Sadly the movement was called off because of TYC’s lack of proper coordination and leadership.
There are more than fifty different minorities under China and only Tibetans assert their independence from time to time. Let me assure you that only Tibetans will bring revolution in whole of China in the near future.
Jamyang Norbu la once mentioned that whenever there were people’s movement, many great personalities comes on the stage- like Gandhi, HHDL, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King and others. However, so far, we do not see leadership of this stature coming out of China’s gigantic population. I will simply say shame on you CHINESE.
All these and more proves that we’re not what Newgeneration think about Tibetans. Tibetans were great, are great and will remain great in the near future. All they needed is a consolidated goal (Rangzen) to keep their issue alive. Bod Gyalo!
“There are more than fifty different minorities under China and only Tibetans assert their independence from time to time.”
Then what the hell do you call the bombings and stabbing incidents in Xinjiang? Muslim tea time rituals?
“Let me assure you that only Tibetans will bring revolution in whole of China in the near future.”
That’s a pretty tall claim. You got anything to back it up besides empty rhetorics?
“All they needed was a comand to go for self immolation. Sadly the movement was called off because of TYC’s lack of proper coordination and leadership.”
So sadly, some monks didn’t burn themselves to death for some good PR? You’re pretty fucking sick, buddy.
“However, so far, we do not see leadership of this stature coming out of China’s gigantic population. ”
That’s because you’re a retard. Mao and Deng ring any bells up in that empty head of yours? These two moved mountains. The first one killed at least 30 million people and reestablished the world’s most populous nation, the second one pulled 5-600 million people out of poverty. So if these are accomplishments unworthy of praise, I’m curious on what your benchmark for great leadership is.
“Tibetans were great, are great and will remain great in the near future.”
If Tibetans are so great, then why do they, as your kind put it, suffer under the iron boot of Chinese oppression? I guess the Chinese are just that much GREATER, heh?
You should probably partake in a little dose of reality from time to time, lest the real world shock you into trauma one of these days.
Chin engineer,
If killing 30 million is great, worthy of your praise in your benchmark of leadership, you are probably SICK or already a schizophrenia maniac.
@Chinese Engineer,
“Then what the hell do you call the bombings and stabbing incidents in Xinjiang? Muslim tea time rituals?”
-I’m not talking about one incident. I’m talking about Tibetan’s ubiquitous and peaceful activism for the last more than five decades. Moreover, do you think violent is the right way of asserting independece?
“I wrote-Let me assure you that only Tibetans will bring revolution in whole of China in the near future.
You answer-That’s a pretty tall claim. You got anything to back it up besides empty rhetorics?”
-One simple Tibetan monk named The Dalai Lama received more awards and accolades than the whole communist Chinese leaders combined. He is among the world’s all time top ten leaders. Can you name such leadership from China?
“That’s because you’re a retard. Mao and Deng ring any bells up in that empty head of yours? These two moved mountains. The first one killed at least 30 million people and reestablished the world’s most populous nation, the second one pulled 5-600 million people out of poverty. So if these are accomplishments unworthy of praise, I’m curious on what your benchmark for great leadership is.”
-Both of Mao and Deng might have helped many people including their own family members and inner circle. They are worthy of entering into the guiness book of the world record for murdering unprecedented number of civilian that history has ever recorded surpassing even Nazi regime. Read books about your leaders from independent sources, not CCP propaganta then you’ll know the truth.
“If Tibetans are so great, then why do they, as your kind put it, suffer under the iron boot of Chinese oppression? I guess the Chinese are just that much GREATER, heh?”
-We in a civilized and democratic world measure one’s greatness by his/her ability to help people and not by the opression. So, your aparatus to measure greatness is different than ours. Of course, with your aparatus, China should hold top position.
FREE TIBET. TIBET IS NOT A PART OF CHINA.
“Read books about your leaders from independent sources, not CCP propaganta then you’ll know the truth.”
The truth? Not very many people on this blog can tell me to study history with a straight face, and you CERTAINLY are not one of them. Now if you are truly interested in history and geopolitical affairs, I would suggest that you go read Kissinger’s DIPLOMACY and ON CHINA. (as for family enrichment, you might want to find out what happened to Deng Xiao Ping’s son, and maybe how Mao’s eldest son died, although I do not begrudge Mao Anying’s death)
“-One simple Tibetan monk named The Dalai Lama received more awards and accolades than the whole communist Chinese leaders combined. He is among the world’s all time top ten leaders. Can you name such leadership from China?”
And yet, you’re all still stuck outside of your “homeland”. Top 10 indeed. On the matter of accolades and awards, hey, let me cut out some ribbons and medals from recycled paper and pin it on you, maybe it’ll make you a “top 10” too.
“-We in a civilized and democratic world measure one’s greatness by his/her ability to help people and not by the opression. ”
Delusional to the core. Greatness is measured by one’s abilities to defense one’s interests. Have fun being an exile.
independent talk was very educative. the nite was real fun esp with your songs! thnx lot.
Chinese Engineer,
“Delusional to the core. Greatness is measured by one’s abilities to defense one’s interests. Have fun being an exile.”
-We in a civilized world called it SELFISH although you may call it great in your culture. And we’re having a lot of fun in exile exposing so many good things about your father, mother, siblings, uncles and aunts in Beijing.
Communist dude, grab as much weath as you can while you’re in power because CCP is soon to go from this planet. Deposit as much money as you can in Swiss account like every CCP leader does. Your end is near.
Free Tibet, Free China, Free East Turkisan, Free Inner Mongolia, Free Manchuria.
@daveno: At least i didnt call myself Chinese. I think that cultural
preservation to the core becuase in the end if u call yourself what u are not
and what u were coerced into accepting, then u have no right to
call me out on that.
“-We in a civilized world called it SELFISH although you may call it great in your culture.”
If you’re so selfless, why do you want your land back?
Chinese Engineer, finally you agree that Tibet belongs to us not China. Thank you for accepting this.
What I believe is irrelevant. China retains control of Tibet, you don’t. That’s what matters. If I were the absolute dictator of the PRC, I would not relinquish Tibet.
So tell me, if you are so selfless, why do you want a quarter of Chinese territory?
If you’re so great, why is your homeland under Chinese control?
If you’re so peaceful, why did you riot in 2008?
The truth of the matter is that you are perpetuating a myth of Tibetan exceptionalism, while nothing of the sort is actually true. Tibetans are humans, and therefore commit the same fallacies and operate under the same basic rules. Your delusion is very detrimental to you, even if you don’t realize it, because as long as you don’t apply real world logic to the Tibet problem, its resolution will never be in your favor.
@Chinese Engineer,
“What I believe is irrelevant. China retains control of Tibet, you don’t. That’s what matters”
-Thank you for speaking up your mentality. I could now tell that Hitler must be a super hero in your dictionary.
“So tell me, if you are so selfless, why do you want a quarter of Chinese territory?”
-Tibet was never a part of China until China colonized her in 1949. Tibet has its centralized Govt. in Lhasa, currency, military, laid tready with neighoring countries including China, postal systems, issued passport to her citizens and all other things that a nation enjoy. Tibet is Tibet and will be.
“If you’re so great, why is your homeland under Chinese control?”
– Ask your uncles and aunts in Beijing.
“If you’re so peaceful, why did you riot in 2008?”
-It was not a riot in the first place, it was a revolution. Revolution is taking place inTibet, East Turkistan, Inner Mongolia and China everyday although you guys blackout medias.
“Tibetans are humans, and therefore commit the same fallacies and operate under the same basic rules.”
-I agree, we’re only a handful of Tibetans in exile and we’ve been pricking your uncles and aunts for so long now.
Myth-Buster 101:
Tibetans are Peaceful, friendly, compassionate!!!! I say hahahaha.
Tibetan Consider Chinese as another human being; so are our friends not enemy or dangerous.!!!! hah oppps! I think there are certain truth in it…. but not because we are buddhist and have altruist motivation but we are coward.
Because, we all know that most middle pathers cannot tolerate JN and rangzenwalas. We are an easy target! They are not patriotic but a spineless Old grandpa who can only bully old grandmas.
Middle-Path is a best policy: Indeed, a good buddhist philosophy; practice this everyday to guide yourself in fulfilling your wishes to attain Nirvana.
Practicing Middle-path as a tibetan polity? well-intention but suicidal.
TYC ineffective compare to SFT; true to a certain extend because of some obvious reasons, but its impact cannot be underestimated. Many youngsters are starting to be a force of change- and that includes changing current course of our polity. As you can see here more and more tibetans are calling for rangzen, that too vociferously unlike yesteryears.
Rangzenwalas are mostly living in comfort? We are mostly the one who walk the TAlk. We have been there and done that kind of gals and guys! We are tried of the same old same old shit coming from the religious right in Dharamsala, who always carries His holiness’ card and recites like mantra, as if there are the only one who carries his holiness’ wishes.
Rangzenwalas have no plans: As if Middle-path has all the plan. They have only one plan; give away TIbet and Tibetans be happy as Chinese. You call this as plan. This is no brainer, easiest, silliest, and not smarter than the IInd grader plan.
Thats all.
Yours agu.
“Strasbourg Proposal” never had Tibetan people’s mandate and thus can be proven illegal any time. Gen Jamyang la, with the absolute failure of Ume-lam, desperation and fury among the Tibetan diaspora is becoming ever-stronger and thus I feel we, Rangzen advocates should start a political party of own. You’ve also written about this in your articles earlier. If you can lead, we can follow.
Students for free tibet is not for all tibetan,it is for someone. For example during the katri campaign its all member followed Tathon and spent money for him by Students for free tibet. now more tibetans say students for free tathon.
true lhakpa. i agree what you u said judging by the tathong supporters who took advantage of online forums to attack the then potential katri candidate. even jamyang norbu misused his blog to support tathong, n his stupid followers were subconsciously manipulated to support tathong. now they are all exposed n dead silent
TYC’s activities are ‘Tibet Political Awareness\campaigning/ ACTIVISM’. And their GOAL (agenda) is an Independent Tibet.
Executive members of SFT; ICT and other NGOS are well compensated. One would expect the’ basics’ for full time TYC execs. Why are they being kicked around? Somethin personal?
@ True That and @Lhakpa, It is Tethong not Tathong.
Lhakpa and true that, the election is over. Lobsang
Singhe is the new Kalon Tripa, right after they
took away the govt under his feet. Leave ur camPaign BS
out of here. Get a life. Or find a girlfriend.
Hi Tsering Dolker this is not for kalon Tripa Dr Lobsang. I mean students for free tibet’s members are not work as we wish and we hope. above karti campaign was just example. I can write you more examples like this if you need more. i did not find girlfriend.can you come with me? just joke don’t use your stupids words lo.
Lhakpa, are you proposing to Tsering Dolker? Just kidding. No offence guys. Laughter is good for our health.
Dear Lhakpa and TrueThat,
I don’t want to go back to election era. But in fairness to SFT, let me share one thing. Please check Tibetan political review for tethong’s campaign financial sources.
Lhakpa, if you write again, pls do some research and write less we are way too intelligent for your whinning.
OK,
Yours Agu
Lhakpa, i would expect my bf to be at least
marginally intelligent, if not a well spoken and
thoughtful person. So, going by ur previous
comment, let me assure you, u have nothing
To stress about as u fall well below it. But this
is not a matrimony site and neither an I interested
in campaign topics, especially when it is extemely
unfounded slander.
Agu Tonpa you don’t need to go back to election era,if you went, there is nothing to left for you and other guys like you. wawo Agu Is political review web your sources? Ho my god ,this is for SET and tethong. This is not fair you said me to check this web.don’t worry i am researcher i knew his campaign financial sources. When i was in USA his campaigners came for some donation for campaign financial for tethong. when i was in shelong tibetan settlement he came for campaign speech,during that meting a person who asked him about donation $ money. i knew his answer was not fair. i can write you detail all that campaign financial if you need. I know political review web’s board members lo.
HI Tsering Dolker i hope you are little beauty girl other ways your words and your proud. lets change our topics, present karti is your karti and my karti. let him to serves for us and our future. if there is any mistake i have to crisis him and you should come with me. our goal is same.
your Lhakpa
hhhhhhhhhh
lhakpa, u r very jumpy, panicky, impulsive with a face of frustration and tongue of desperation that often veers off the topic at hand. it’s time u find your TRANQUILIZER in the form of a girlfriend! crackpot!
Gyakhab Ranzen your writing skill and use words look like little better English but your mindset had not got training for discussion about political and to shear ideas. Keep training lo then be better
It saddens me to read half-truths and innuendos against Rangzen advocates, SFT, our elected Katri, the Middle path followers, Jamyang la, anyone and everyone plastered all over this blog like cow shit drying on a large virtual wall. If you have positive personal opinion to share with the readers, we love to hear it, but please keep your rumors, false assumptions, baseless accusations to yourselves; they are not helping our cause; for the Middle path follower or the Rangzen advocates. It is our duty to promote healthy debate and raise genuine concerns in a positive light. Throwing Tsampa in people’s faces and defacing our organizations only adds to our lack of maturity, understanding of our grave situation and the disarray in our understanding of our ultimate goal. Let us not become a roadside show for our Chinese readers who so far must be enjoying the squabbling and bickering that goes on endlessly, on Tibetan blogs and websites. Please stop and think carefully before you post your words.
As a Chinese I find it amazing that so many Tibetans are still arguing amongst themselves between complete independence and autonomy. If you think about this in terms of currency, autonomy is like buying a mercedes and independence is like buying a maserati. If you don’t happen to have the political capital to afford either, shouldn’t you spend more time to think of what you can do to build up your strength rather than bickering amongst yourselves?
Of course, there is nothing wrong with daydreaming about the nice things which you can’t have. However, China didn’t rise in the recent decades because of the Chinese nationalists who daydreamed and are still daydreaming about China being number one. They didn’t do jack for China. China rose because by the end of cultural revolution many Chinese figured China was a compete failure, that Western nations are indeed superior. With that mind set, Chinese were eager to learn from the Western colonizers, not only their language but their culture, processes, and technology. Had the Chinese people avoided anything and everything which had to do with the “western imperialists” as the Chinese nationalists had hoped, China would be like North Korea today.
If Tibetans want nice things in life, they have to get over nationalist politics and focus on real tangible goals, then setup milestones with the intent on seeing what works and work doesn’t. Instead I see Tibetans bickering about the most unrealistic scenarios. The only thing uniting them is their hatred for the Chinese, which isn’t going to get them anywhere.
Lhakpa and Tsering Dolma, please no more romantic talk here. I always remember a fat guy when I hear Lhakpa. Tsering Dolma, don’t go with him. hahaha
Chaalu Tashi (hahaha) – what is your grudge against TYC.
Because they’re paid freedom fighter and do nothing.
jamyangla, your thoughts and views are always clear and inspiring… what the TGIE needs is a wake up call !!! i am not a political scientist but i do share and support jamyangla’s views simply because like him and most other tibetan , i value a free and independent tibetan much more then all these confusing and misleading words like autonomy, association etc etc…
tathong or tuthong. do we really give two monkey craps?
I see Chinese here drawing naive conclusion and considering views expressed by few in this blog as representation of general tibetan’s attitude. Is your brain the size of peanuts or you are just nuts.
chinese @ #64,
I guess you mean well but you must also consider that tibetans and chinese are different. As a country, we would like to become more like Bhutan than China. But of course without monarchy/religious head. Chinese seem more inclined to embrace western culture and seem proud of that fact. but some other eastern cultures including tibetans’ do not see it a matter of pride but as a shame. I think we can learn many good things from the west and discard a lot of our negative/ unnecessary cultural traits without losing our Tibetan culture.
Tsering Dolkar, you wrote “SFT leaders , even regional heads are paid a lot more than TYC centric
members can ever dream about.”
The Regional coordinators for SFT DO NOT get paid even a cent. They all work on their own and for free. So please check your information before you make such statements.
Both TYC and SFT work towards the same goal. Independent Tibet. As much as SFT’s members are non-Tibetan, a large portion of its members are Tibetan.
I do believe it is healthy for organizations to re-evaluate the organizational structure and how things are done within the organizations members, staff and/or board. However, it becomes nonconstructive when blames are being thrown back and forth by comparing one organization with another. It creates an unhealthy environments for those who do Rangzen work full time. And those who work for Rangzen full time, whether its TYC or SFT, let us be respectful of these individuals for their sacrifices because as you should know, there is NO money to be made by working full time for Rangzen. So please leave out the names of organizations which are doing works they have set out to do for the failures of Tibetan government.
It is not helping fuel any positive change. Instead its creating animosity amongst those who are putting in real work.
Jamyangla,
An effective piece of writing and a powerful way of thinking. Its a very well known fact that the Tibetans in exile dont walk the talk because even though we are refugees, we don’t have to face the everyday hardship Tibetans in Tibet have to.
And Tibetan youths this days are more interested in Bollywood than freedom, Hip hop than tibetan politics. It rather saddens me to add that they only way of information they have is the information passed on by generations 100 years ago.
We all have faith in His Holiness but sometimes we forget that our faith in His Holiness is spiritual and when we try to make it political, problem and misinformation happens.
As opposed to western views, Tibet was always a land of violence. Many big monastries in Tibet had their own army( YOu would wonder why would Monastry need an army?). Masses were tortured by so called ” Kudas” and yet we have forgotten all about it since we, as a youth, haven’t really faced it in Tibet. But now when i look at the political system or the most head of NGO’s are still run by the families who were running Tibet. Those who had power in Tibet has power in Exile. So where are the masses? Will the cry for democracy really take effect when the Kudas of yesteryears are still the kudas of today?
I don’t know how this snuck by, but did anyone catch the US HFAC directive July 20th saying “no more consulates for Beijing until we get one in Lhasa”?
Here’s an Indian article pointing out that India has even more of a right to stipulate this:
http://www.rediff.com/news/column/us-seeks-consulate-in-tibet-china-fumes/20110808.
Does it seem to anyone that there is an explosion of activity now, what with India publicly announcing border reinforcements, the new student protests in Kardze and Golok, the very nationalistic monks’ conference which was unbelievably allowed to go through, and now this consulate thing?
I meant “nationalistic” as referring to the flavour of the conference, rather than calling the monks themselves nationalistic.
Hi, Sheila, THe link doesn’t work. Is there another way to read the story? THanks.
Hi, TDG,
If the descendants of past aristocrats serve our nation more faithfully and more ably than others it would be wrong to deny them the opportunity.
Recent report of the News Week says that the Kalon Tripa Lobsang Sangye is the one who plays “the political role of the Dalai Lama”. If this is true then there is still a long way to go and nothing has changed, except that a man is made to act on behalf of him. I hope it is not true. A real democratic system has taken birth and Mr Lobsang Sangye is the Kalon Tripa on his own and he represents no one except the will of the Tibetan people!
As long as Samdhong Rinpoche stays in Dhasa and peeks frm the real station of power, Lobsang Sangye la is just a cheerleader with big titties. Nothing much.
REwalsar #78,
I agree with TSering Dorjee #79. But Lobsang Sangye has the option to be kalon tripa of his own mind while representing the Tibetan public who believed in what he said, “Unity. Innovation, and self-reliant.”
But it is gonna be an uphill battle. What looks like an ally, Samdhong Rinpoche, may become a thorn for the new Kalon tripa when he starts to walk his talk with innovation. Samdhong Rinpoche already pushed for his men in the most powerful post in Chithus, Tsoktso Penpa Tsering, and asked Thupten Lungrik to be in the chithus, just to make sure Losang Sangye will not act his own way to change his old policy.
To bring innovation, you cannot remain stagnant and maintain status quo. And that means changing some of the existing policies. But this looks like an uphill battle especially when it comes to educational policies where LosSangye will be gearing more towards modern education unlike Samdhong who was die hard fan of “So-Gyuen.”
Besides, Sangye was asked to keep most of Rinpoche chamchas where there are today: Tsering Dhondup to be kalon and Losang Nyendak to be New york Representative. Those are few of the many that makes katri head spin. There is a resistance from Sangye friends and colleques to accomodate some like Tsering Dhondup and Gyari Dolma to be chithus (Konchok Tsuendue vehemently opposes to work with them). We’ll see how it will work- the best scenario for Gyari dolma is Delhi Dhonchoe.
Lets stop here. I wish Lobsang Sangye la my best wishes and best of luck for his term as Katri.
…there is a resistance from Sangye friends and colleques to accomodate someone like Tsering Dhondup and Gyari Dolma to be KALONS (Dr. Konchok Tsuendue vehemently opposes to work with them).
ciao,
Agu
Wow–sorry it took so long to get back here. Here’s link to the consulate story; it’s working as of tonight: http://www.rediff.com/news/column/us-seeks-consulate-in-tibet-china-fumes/20110808.htm
Chinese Engineer, real world logic also held that the shackles of colonialism could never be thrown off by South Africa, Lithuania, Denmark, India…
The only logic that can be stated for certain is that things change.
“real world logic also held that the shackles of colonialism could never be thrown off”
Dear Sheila, clearly you’re not qualified to use the words “real world logic” under any use case, except perhaps to describe your own short comings.
Read what I wrote, not what you THINK I wrote. This goes for all of you here.
“This goes for all of you here”. Pretty interesting remark coming out of dormant observer.
Chinese Engineer,
You all like to go on and on about the evil, all-powerful western empire that abused China for so long; now you’re saying it wasn’t that powerful? In other words, India throwing of Britain’s shackles wasn’t that big a deal? You have to pick one, brother.
As far as Tibetan independence, the only real-world logic that can be applied is that if one doesn’t try, one won’t succeed.
Occupations of one country by another have risen, crumbled, ebbed and flowed; the causes are legion and one can’t predict which method will succeed nor which will fail. The only certainty is that success is less likely without trying.
You asked why claim 1/4 of Chinese territory, and I have a question about that territory. Zf says 95% of the population in Tibet was Tibetan serfs, and 5% were Tibetan serflords.
Were there any Chinese in Tibet before 1951? Or Mongguor, Li, Bai, Yi etc.? If so, were they serfs, or serflords?
It seems all is not well out there.
It seems the Tibetans really need a multiparty system. If the Kalon Tripa had his own party and party policy, this rat race of mixed-bag Kalon nomination would have never happened. Since he hasn’t one, he has to compromise with all the bigwigs. His list of Kalons will have people from right,left, centre, conservative, green,labhour, buddhist democratic… a cabinet of philosophical war zone.
“You all like to go on and on about the evil, all-powerful western empire that abused China for so long”
I have said no such thing. If anything, I have always been very forthcoming about China’s short comings at the turn of the previous century.
As far as India goes, I gave a pretty explanation here on this blog as to why Britain relinquished the Crown Jewel.
Like I said, read what I wrote, not what you THINK I wrote.
“Were there any Chinese in Tibet before 1951?”
Yes
“If so, were they serfs, or serflords?”
Neither. They were not Tibetans.
They were business people. They used to import everything from needle to nailpolish, and candy to dry cabbage! Even today the Huhus sell dry fruits in Lhasa, as their forefathers did before 1959.
“To impose revolution on a FUNCTIONING SOCIETY is like burying a man
alive. In such a case one man’s conception of revolution inevitably
becomes another man’s destruction.” – (late) Dawa Norbu
Chinese Engineer,
‘Like I said, read what I wrote, not what you THINK I wrote.’
100% communist attitude.
Chinese Engineer,
Then how could the population of old Tibet consist of exactly 95% serfs and 5% serflords?
Either there were no Chinese in Tibet, or Tibet did not consist of 95% serfs and 5% serflords, or some Chinese were serfs and/or serflords.
Sheila, do you know what a rounding error is? Do you know what 0.1% of 2 million is?
Stop asking me dumb rhetorical questions.
Engineer,
Regarding your comments about “Tibetan Exceptionalism”: I agree.
It’s disingenuous to assert a bunch of convenient labels or descriptions on any groups of people. Not for Tibetans. Not for Han Chinese. Not for Muslims, Jews, African Americans… so on, so forth.
You can’t box a whole bunch of people into a monolithic entity, and then spring your theories and ideas off of that. It’s a slippery slope and there’s no science to back it up.
HOWEVER
What you fail to account for is for the natural human impulses of dignity and self-control. From that moniker of yours, it’s not too far-fetched to assume that you think of yourself as rational, objective and unencumbered by emotions.
While it serves a lot of purpose to examine the undercurrents and external factors of historical events, to dissect each and every step that led to something, you have to be mindful about not losing the humanity that powers these moments.
It’s academically astute to study the geopolitical climate of India during its liberation period; all the matters concerning Britain’s fading power and the rise of America. These are all important and relevant factors, no question about that.
But if the Indians hadn’t stood up and demanded their independence, all the economic crises in the world wouldn’t have made a lick of difference in the British rule over India. The voices and actions of those demanding change are critical agents on which movements like these are made.
The underpinning to all such grievances is the desire to control your own fate. To not be resigned to a situation where you feel powerless and hopeless. To have ambition. To have some pride about where you came from or who you are.
Think about it: if you were to grow up feeling like you didn’t belong, that all of your family’s history was meaningless, that your appearance and language is considered outmoded (in your own birthplace), how would you feel?
It’s easy to dismiss the articles of Tibetan monks burning themselves. After all, you’ve never been in his position, you don’t know what his life’s goals are or how he lives his life. He’s just an abstract entity that you can sum up in one sentence on a blog comment. It’s that easy. Internet is wonderful for that.
What’s more challenging is to empathize. To get a sense of the frustrations and stresses that would lead a young, healthy person to douse himself with gasoline and then light his body on fire. To actually drink the fuel so that you burn your innards. What are the reasons for such an absolute, drastic series of thoughts and actions?
So now you extrapolate from that one extreme situation, dilute it for statistical purposes, and you get a sense for the anger and frustrations of many Tibetans (inside and out of Tibet) towards China. The riots in Lhasa didn’t just happen because some people felt like pelting rocks at the army. Why would anyone put themselves in harm’s way like that? They happened for a number of reasons, and one of the most important being self-determination.
You may not get it. You might just think the Tibetans are being ungrateful slobs for all the modern developments that China has brought into Tibet. That’s your point of view, and you’re entitled to it. But it’s an impoverished way of looking at life, people and the world around you.
The one thing that never gets calculated in your posts is basic human dignity. Think about it.
Chinese Engineer, it’s hardly rhetorical.
The Party has a big problem: the 95%/5% total Tibet population figure is hammered relentlessly. Yet no account is made of the alleged Chinese, Bai, Yi, Lisu, Mongguor, Mongol and other “native Tibet residents.”
Are you saying that all together, all non-Tibetan residents of Tibet counted for 0.1% of the population?
In fact, according to Xinhanet news in April of 2008, Tibetan serfs made up MORE than 95% of the population:
” Serfs made up more than 95 percent of the population in the old Tibet.”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/12/content_7965080.htm
Are you saying the non-Tibetans were part of the remaining less-than-5%, serflords/slavemasters/theocratic bouncers, or are you saying the non-Tibetan population was so low it wasn’t even worth counting?
it looks like our dear empirical Engineer had to agree the near ZERO presence of Chinese in Tibet before the invasion. Also, in that calculation that Sheila provided, it does not account for the majority of Tibetans who live Nomadic existence and does not fall under that highly debatable SERF/LANDLORD scenario.
Wow…did you hear Wen Jiabao’s surprising phrasing in the recent speech, that in order for a ruling party to be in accord with the Chinese constitution and law, the party “must not represent the government?”
?!
Been pondering this since last night, although it didn’t occur to me until just now, reading “the ruling party,” that rather than a magnanimous gesture toward reform, it’s could be a way of ensuring any new, non-CCP “ruling party” doesn’t have as much power as the CCP once did. Maybe just a way to hamstring any impending “reform” party so that the already-lame CCP can collect its wits and coffers to bribe itself back into power.
Or maybe that’s how he sold it to them, though his own intentions are toward true reform? Does Zhang Qingli’s firing + Wen’s new democracy t-shirt mean there could be a tiny ray of light for Tibet?
“Does Zhang Qingli’s firing + Wen’s new democracy t-shirt mean there could be a tiny ray of light for Tibet?”
probably not.
““must not represent the government?””
this just means that the party shouldn’t have its own enrichment and perpetuation as its primary objective. Of course the party also believes that the party’s survival is essential to the success of the Republic, so take it whichever way you like.
“Are you saying the non-Tibetans were part of the remaining less-than-5%, serflords/slavemasters/theocratic bouncers, or are you saying the non-Tibetan population was so low it wasn’t even worth counting?”
the latter.
And are you saying the, that you believe Tibet was actually divided into 95% “serfs” and 5% “serflords?”
If so, here’s a very detailed Chinese commentary arguing strongly against that theory:
http://www.rxhj.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23802
Exerpt:
很明显的, 旧西藏是一个多元的社会, 她由形形色色的人组成, 她的居民包括签契约的农民, 非签约的农民, 商人, 贵族, 官员, 牧民, 猎人, 僧侣, 尼姑, 手工业者, 演员, 艺术家, 仆人, 军人, 乞丐, 强盗等等. 将整个社会简化为只有农奴和农奴主存在, 是无法正确地阐释西藏社会的真实情形的.
Clearly, old Tibet was a pluralistic society, formed of all sorts of people, her residents including farmers who signed contracts, non-contract farmers, merchants, aristocrats, officials, herders, hunters, monks, nuns, craftsmen, actors, artists, servants, soldiers, beggars, robbers and so forth. To reduce the entire society to merely serfs and serf owners does not properly explain the true situation of the Tibetan society.
“And are you saying the, that you believe Tibet was actually divided into 95% “serfs” and 5% “serflords?””
No.
That’s just some moron trying to quantify a qualifier.
Why don’t you believe the government position?
Because I extend my disdain for half-assed journalism to all articles which are…found wanting.
But the 95%/5% serfs/serflords is not just in Xinhua articles, it’s emblazoned in textbooks from elementary school through graduate school.
who said the Party can’t play some number game once in a while?
Although I’m not sure about this grad school thing.
So Sheila, what point exactly are you trying to make here with this 95/5 talk?
I’m making the point that one of the main pretexts for invasion was a lie.
Secondarily, I’m making the point that today’s “modernized” Party is so arrogant, that they continue to dish out the 95%/5% figure in a manner that suggests they don’t consider citizens intelligent enough to recognize it as preposterous, or that they simply just don’t care what citizens think period.
The ONLY pretext was the Tibetan rebellion.
All this free the serf crap serves the same purpose as WMD in Iraq: justification for public consumption, although you can’t deny that a significant proportion of the Tibetan population were serfs.
Look, you guys rolled the dice, and lost. Deal with it.
“Look, you guys rolled the dice, and lost. Deal with it.”
Oh, sorry about that, Engineer. Didn’t mean to inconvenience you with all our caterwauling about the political imprisonment, tortures and target practice on little children crossing the border.
Sometimes we Tibetans tend to get carried away by the rampant destruction of our homeland and our cultures. Our emotions get the better of us.
In the future, we’ll all strive to please the half-amused, clinical disposition of someone from the privileged group such as yourself.
Again, our apologies. Please don’t mind the monks and mothers. They don’t know any better. (Being serf-minded and all. Hard to shed that kind of thing off, hard as you might try, oh benevolent liberator).
That’s the spirit!
You know, for someone who’s a self-proclaimed “productive”, tax paying member of the society, you do seem to have a lot of times in your hands shooting down the thoughts and comments here of those who you consider to be beneath you.
I don’t know. Just gives this faint ring of someone who’s a bit desperate to prove his superiority on the only medium he knows how: the internet.
As long as that validates your existence, good for you!
Touche.
I’m crying my eyes out right now while I attempt to eat my feelings away by munching down McDonald’s value items, because that’s the only thing I can afford.
OM NOM NOM.
You know, for someone who really doesn’t have much to say, you certainly take yourself very seriously. But whatever floats your boat, I suppose.
Back to the 99c hamburger I go.
OM NOM NOM.
Listen:
Keep on doing the things that make you get a kick out of it, Engineer. If that means some kind of misguided antipathy towards the vulnerable or struggling, go for it. Everyone has a role in this world, however big or insignificant.
If yours is to play up the douchebaggery of an un-compassionate, unfeeling social darwinist, you are more than entitled to it.
that’s very zen of you, sir.
It’s no more zen than pointing out that a bag of shit smells like one.
I wouldn’t give you that much credit.
I can and will deny that a significant proportion of Tibetans were ‘serfs.’
Drokpa make up 40% of Tibet’s population today; are you saying “liberated serfs” suddenly abandoned the settled life and became neo-Drokpa? The dialects should reflect this startling shift, but don’t.
On the contrary we can presume (and see from dialect patterns) that some nomads have become settled since invasion, so the population of Drokpa in 1951 was likely more than today’s 40%.
At any rate, even conservatively that leaves less than 60% of Tibet’s population left to be abused serfs, cruel serflords, monastics, as well as the Many Missing Minzu (Bai, Yi, Lisu, Han etc etc).
The reality is that the Party has no bloody clue exactly what the population of Tibet was in 1951, much less any exacting details as to its makeup.
Chinese Engineer, look at the situation when China occupied Tibet in the name of liberation. The whole world was under the shadow of world war-II where people have nothing to eat, no shelter to live and no cloth to wear. In fact majority of the world cities were in rubble? We Tibetans however backward and oppressed may be, we still have something to eat, house to live, cloth to wear and practice Buddhism one of the most sought after religions by scientists, thinkers and philosophers on this planet. Not a single politically and socially oppressed Tibetan fleet Tibet before 1959. However, nowadays thousands of Tibetans fleet Tibet to seek political asylum. WHAT A LIBERATION!
Sheila
You and I clearly have very different definitions of “significant”.
As for Tibetan population, the first Chinese (PRC) census was held in 1954, and I’m under the impression that Tibet itself did a census before that. So it’s pretty reasonable to assume that CCP did have data on Tibetan demographics before rolling in the PLA (post 7 point agreement). So the question solely hinges on when, and what type of census Tibet did before 1951.
“Buddhism one of the most sought after religions by scientists, thinkers and philosophers on this planet.”
You’re full of shit.
Dude, to this day no one knows exactly what the population and makeup of Tibetan society is. CCP doesn’t like to admit there are places so remote that it doesn’t know what happens there.
I never said that sentence you quoted; it’s not something I would say.
I don’t think we have to accuse each other of being full of what you said; as humans, high or low, we are all full of that, and there’s nothing we can do about it. It’s life.
that one is directed towards tashi. Pay no heed, friendo.
Dear Wespected Comwade “China Engineer”,
Wery wery good news this morning. Comwade Hu so happy your lone stand against the wicious Xizang Wangzen Wallahs he award you for bravery with the 英雄模范奖章. Wery congwatulations! We pop this medal in the mail to you this morning.
But Comwade Hu also wery worried your lone stand causing you too much bwud preassure pwoblem , sleeplessness and headache for you. He worried you have nasty stwroke when those wicious Xizang Wangzen Wallahs gang up on you and call you all those wicious names and make fun your mental pwoblems (btw, always take your pills).
So, to help you, Comwade Hu has appointed me your personal mentor. Now I will always adwise and guide you. When you have pwoblem, you can confide in me, OK? This awangement is like I am an “angel on your shoulder”. I always look out for you. Comwade Hu say you must feel wery gwateful this awangement, or else. I am also wery wucky, Comwade Hu pwomote me to General (funny, I wasn’t even a pwivate?). Your pwomotion still at committee wevel (maybe they misunderstood that you were to be the General?). Anyway, glad to be working on Xizang desk with you.
So, let’s get mentoring –
1) First this Sheila. She wery cwever and tough fortune cookie. She got us by the bwalls on the 95/5 split of serfs/serf owners. You bwugger up big time here, but wery cwever you try be her friend when she got you cornered. Wemember our Sun Tzu training (or was it Penguin Machiavelli ?), bwing enemy close then give one ju jitzu chop when they not looking. Watch out this Sheila, she never lose temper or cool, her position always based on facts, so best just pick the bwattle we can win with her. Meanwhile I’ll think of way to get you out of this bwugger up while keeping our Asian face intact.
2) You also bwugger up big time on #108. How can pretext be rwevolt when Pweaceful Wibber …Wibberwa … Wib … oh bwugger …. when invasion came before? Surely you wemember our indoctrination? Xizang 101: 1949 Xizang marches taken under control from webel warlords, 1950 inwasion, mid-1950’s onwards revolt in eastern wegions, 1959 Lhasa upwising. Pretext came afterwards … really a post-text.
That’s enough mentor for today. I wery busy with China Peace Pwize awangements. You hear about that? We here in United Front Beijing office nominated our very own Panchen Enderni. Wery funny eh! I been warfing so much my wibs hurt! Anyway, my boss asked me to put up Panchen picture all over office as Comwade Hu could wisit us any moment when he’s finished suwounding the monasteries in Autonymoose Wegions with the bwave PAP battalions. Lucky I got the Xizang office experience boy to help put the pictures up. Did I tell you, he wery good boy, been here around sixteen years, only six years old when he started. Bit young for office experience boy then, but now wery helpful and useful around the office.
Best and “gyame kyakpa sa!”
Comwade Dung, UF Beijing
General (Dogsbody)
p.s. pwease not forget weply my lunch inwatation and ammo request, #199 over on “Ending to Begin (Part I)“
Chinese Engineer, there is a saying in Tibetan-
‘I fear not 100 intellectuals, but stupid person.’ Clearly you’re the one whom I fear of.
While Jamyang Norbu promised to release sometimes in the future the second part of his “Ending to a beginning”, the complexity that surrounded the issue of removing “Ganden Photrang” from the government emblem and, of course, the Dalai Lama himself staying away from the government’s political affairs (once for ever) has become pretty much clear with the Dalai Lama’s recent declaration. From the whole scenario, one thing becomes very clear, and that is to keep the ruling communist regime of the PRC away from the issue of the Dalai Lama Institution, the institution that has now become a purely religious one. Good!
This is a big blow to the regime.
The Tibetan Government in Exile apparently wants to give up the name for which so many Tibetans died and a name that still inspires people to sacrifice their fortune, their lives and their honor.
So what’s the quid pro quo?
I don’t know.
But, the Tibetan Government in Exile was respected and honored because it represented a continuity of the ancestral rights of the native people of the Snowland. The birthright of our father the Monkey manifestation of Chenrezi and the quick and fierce love of the Rocky mountain manifestation of Dolma.
The Tibetan Government swore a solemn oath to make any and all sacrifice to cherish and honor the exiles representing the true and historic aspirations of the six million Tibetans –the one and only majority population of Tibet.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama stated and the Tibetan Government in Exile affirmed that only thru a fair and free referendum or plebiscite would the Tibetan Government in Exile be swayed from this solemn duty.
So what now my patriotic fellow Tibetans?
An old Tibetan Government in Exile official– who used to live on about 2090 Rupees a month and was able to hold my head high.
Lol, JN has promised “Part 2” for few of his previous articles, but bnever followed with an “actual part 2”, maybe it is his stretegy. With life long experience of leading the Tibetan movement, HHDL recently presented his reasons of doing so through the religious conference of different religious sects including Bon. It was a comprehensive and indepth, both educational and stretegic, spiritual teaching and historical accounts. It actually defeated anyone’s unstudied but a speculive observations, be JN or Chinese government. The details will be released after 14 more years, when HHDL turns 90. It will first be consulted with concerned spirutal masters, then with Tibetans public, and then with those who have connection with Tibetan Buddhism. What a wonderful treatise! A classic writing……I am wondering and waiting JN’s next speculative shots against the treatise and his all-I-know followers cheering along with the way with rangzen placard on the internet, but not in the street!
JN
Rewalsar/NewGen
Do you truly think no one knows you’re the same guy?
CCP Beijing, I nearly died laughing. Chinese Engineer, I assure you, I’m not humored by the idea of mocking any particular way of speech; rather, that someone would know the Party mindset so intimately.
Favorite quote of all time: “lunch invitation and ammo request” !!
@Sheila, I dont know who is this Rewalsar. He makes some sense, he has his own thinking. Regarding to the famous following up “PART II” for few of JN’s articles promised has/had never came up. I simply added few facts onto this writings. I remember, JN wrote an article about a Tibetan Losar as Part I, promised to release the second Part II, even prof. Eliot Sperling, said, “Bring It On”! The fact is, it never followed up.
NG
… now what follows is that there seemed to have emerged three bodies: the Dalai Lama Institute, the Gandhen Photrang Trust, and of course the Tibetan People’s Organisation. All the three of them till recently was intermingled into one powerful body: the Tibetan Government in Exile Gandhen Photrang Chogley Namgyal. The move that has recently been taken, which ultimatley caused this disintegration,is most probably to separate religion from politics, to built a meaningful democratic system and of course to save the Dalai Lama Institute from being misused by Beijing to fulfil its political goal. Even after all this,for Tibetans, most probably both in and outside Tibet, Dalai Lama, the XIVth, is (virtually) the head of the state, for he is the only one whom Tibetan people trust and take his words as the final say. So a lot has changed, but nothing much in reality.
Rangzen is not an option for me.
I was born without it.
I have never travelled to Rangzen land.
My parents were born without it.
My Grandma said we dont have it.
To follow Guru,i vowed.
I do not know who i am nor who i will be.
In Guru i TRUST,TRUST is my Rangzen.
@Revalsar, your point is correct if Tibetan people just being lazy and do their own business, then what you said will be true always because we are doing nothing. If people act forefully and make some impact, it necessitates leaders to reconsider their policy statement. There is still hope, hope is depending on how people take matters into their hands seriously, otherwise, just whining online is nothing but a sound of bunch of pathetic loosers.
NG
DAVENO – YOU ARE THE ULTIMATE SHEEP.
HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF A KHAMPA? YOU ARE SO DILUTED, THERE IS NOTHING LEFT OF KHAMPA IN YOU.
IF YOU DONT CARE FOR RANGZEN, GO BACK TO MOTHERLAND CHINA.
MOUNTAINLAKEMAN, WHAT IS RANGZEN? WHERE DO I GO TO GET IT? DOES IT HAVE A SHAPE OR COLOUR?
WHAT IS YOUR MOTHERLAND?
To all demanding a part two, I can only say – good work takes time.
But onto other things – this is on Angry Tibetan Guy’s site:
“[Jackie Chan] did make some messed up comments on Tibetan protestors at Olympic torch relay. But then, who wouldn’t when their national pride is at stake. I can totally understand that. He’s more modest and humble than some of those egoistic lamas on high thrones.”
And:
“One thing I still don’t understand is that why people from Tibet are better in Tibetan language especially writing. You will hear this frequently in school, “Tashi is good in Tibetan because he’s from Tibet.” What makes them better? I thought Chinese govt. don’t let them study Tibetan in Tibet. Or am i missing out on something?”
What do you make of it?
http://angrytibetanguy.tumblr.com/
http://angrytibetanguy.tumblr.com/
O man!
Are you mad?!
Can one part II fill in the black of earlier part II? lol….no wonder still bathing in niave uthopia!
NG & GN,
Your latest comments have been moved to the related post.
Golok Ambum, Webmaster
How best we can forward the freedom movement in a better, constructive, and progressive way, is respect other’s view without shutting down the other as insignificant. If we can follow this, then the useless argument between rangzen versus rangjong will not thwart us from moving forward. As of now, we are the worst enemy of our own goal whatever one believes in because speculations stir emotion and sometimes, some people deliberately causing unnecessary troubles whether intentionally or not. If there is an alternative argument, there must be a way to address it rather than resorting to kind of conspiracy theory.
NG
PS: Golok Webmaster, thanks for the notice!
HI Everyone,
We might have realized by now all these intellectualism only serves to fulfill our narcissism. What did it serve ? Did it lead to any formation of any movement. Did it lead to any action ?
Any commentators, I challenge you to think about action. If you are not willing to commit to any action, then all your comments are just plain useless. Its Hypocrisy. Bette not say anything.
Dokpa