An Absolute Must Read

Sorry,  this is not the second part of the ENDING TO BEGIN. That will be coming soon. No sweat. In the meantime I would advise everyone to read this brilliant analysis of the fundamental dishonesty of Dharamshala arguments for turning an exile government into an NGO. It is by Christophe Besuchet, an old and loyal friend and supporter of the Tibetan cause. The title is somewhat lengthy and academic, but but don’t let that put you off. The article itself is a gem of reasoning and elucidation – an absolute must read.

SOME TRUTHS ABOUT THE TIBETAN GOVERNMENT’S REBRANDING: Deconstructing Official Falacies & Disingenuous Arguments.


86 Replies to “An Absolute Must Read”

  1. NewgenerationTB: So stale? It’s actually very timely if you consider that the parliament session is ending in a couple of days and that our new Katri promised to get back the word “government”… Anyone knows if this matter was discussed?

  2. Maybe HHDL is just eternally hopeful of the Chinese change of heart. Alternately, could he be purposely forcing people to come to terms with choosing their own conclusions instead of his? If he wants people to graduate from the loyalty model to the democratic model, how else can one really graduate, other than to have to make such an unnerving decision?

  3. “A few years ago, Gyari Dolma, Tibet’s most senior woman politician in exile, noted that the parliament’s long-standing mission was “to reach out and seek support of respective parliaments of different countries in order to gain more legitimate recognition of the Dalai Lama-led Tibetan Government-in-Exile.” ”

    So essentially, autonomy only was pretty much a lie? That’s good to know.

  4. Chinese Engineer, only those survives at the end who has the tendency to change in order to adapt with the situation. This is what ‘survival of the fittest is all about. China never changes which means ‘the end’ is soon.

  5. Chinese Engineer, only those survives at the end who has the tendency to change in order to adapt to the situation. This is what ‘survival of the fittest is all about. It is lone China that never changes and stagnant.

  6. Not a LOYA JIRGA

    Many intellectual Tibetans and foreign supporters got mixed-up on understanding of the second Tibetan national general meeting held at the new auditorium of Tibetan Children Village School in upper Dharamshala from May 21, 2011 for four days, attended by 418 Tibetans from various parts of the world, to that of the loya jirga (Pashto) – A loya jirga is a mass meeting usually prepared for major events such as choosing a new king, adopting a constitution, or discussing important national political or emergency matters as well as disputes in the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan. In Afghanistan , the loya jirga was originally attended by the Pashtuns, but later included other ethnic groups. It is a forum unique among the Pashtun tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan in which, traditionally, tribal elders meet together. For us, exile Tibetans, we have democratic parliament with members of Chitue who were elected by the people, a lone body which has power to legislate and amend our exile charter.

    Since then I have read many articles on this meeting, written mostly by pro Rangzen proponent, deploring 14th Tibetan Chitue and second Kashag on the Charter amendments, which includes the name change. Authors of these articles missed seeing ground reality of running CTA, and more importantly sustaining CTA for very long time as a viable entity, which has respect, recognition, resources, empower from foreign government leaders, institutions, important NGO’s to represent Tibet as a whole, and more over a deep trust from majority of Tibetans living inside and outside of Tibet.

    Ground reality: Our neighbors Nepal , Bhutan , Burma , and Pakistan all recognize one China policy, and India also recognizes TAR part of China as its central government policy on Tibet . Major supporter and aid donator country like US also carries one China as its federal policy. Recent act of prohibition by Nepal and Bhutan government on Kalon Tripa and Chitue election, Nepal government stopping of Tibetan immigration to US and closure of Representative office of His Holiness Dalai Lama are the ground realities. These two Himalaya nations have very close culture, religion and linguistic relation with Tibetan and Tibetan Buddhism, I sometime feel like calling these nations as our step brothers and sisters.

    Current CTA policy on solution of Tibet: Since Strasburg announcement by His Holiness Dalai Lama, CTA has been perusing on the Middle Way approach for the solution of Tibet with China, the Memorandum on Genuine Autonomy for the Tibetan People was formally presented by the Envoys of His Holiness the Dalai Lama to their Chinese counterparts during the ninth round of dialogue in Beijing, China. Per international norms, CTA can not pursue two completely different approaches for the solution of Tibet concurrently, so it is utmost important that NGO like TYC, SFT work harder to garner support and recognition from other nation governments, member of parliament or senators, and if possible UN on their sole Rangzen approach without denigrating or disagreeing with CTA policy, rather walk on parallel path to CTA with hands holding together with unity. If Chinese Communist government does not respond, and negotiate on the Middle Way approach with sincere and vigorously with envoys of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, then a time will come for CTA to turn 180 degree for a plan B.

    It is rather very important to fight this war from multi directional, all Tibetans and supporters targeting Communist government of China as only opponent and not Chinese brothers and Sisters, at the same time learn from strong PLO disintegration into two fractions – Fatah and Hamas.

  7. It is just the fools who lick even JN’s pee if it got sacred rangzen flavor! The article was out there for a long time and probably fools did not know it existed before JN recommended instead of recommending his new ground-breaking insights and views, so when JN recommended, it certaily became a new shit faithful fools. lol…..check the actual date of post. Anyway, it is an outsider’s view. It is not this view the problem, the problem is all-I-Represent-Tibet and I AM FOR ALL RANGZEN, if someone do not agree, thenyou are traitors…..this kind of sickening and low mentality is the problem, especially combined with low education, which makes it even more dangerous.


  8. NewgenerationTB: Fools didn’t know this article existed before JN recommended? What about the 7000 readers on Phayul? And what difference does it make if it is an outsider’s view? The fact remains that it bluntly highlights the duplicity of Samdong and K. Gyaltsen.

    By the way, weren’t you a supporter of LS? What do you make of the fact that he mentioned twice he will propose changing the name to have at least the word Boe shung?

  9. My coworker asked yesterday, “If the EU sees the logic of Palestinian statehood, how can it possibly deny the logic of Tibetan statehood?”

  10. sometimes i wish the pieces are rather more straight forward and Kharee karthuk.

    For those of you seeking are the steps you should consider.

    1. Sent an application seeking rangzen to CCP with a recommended date for them to response.
    2. Follow up letter with a firm deadline.
    3. If no response from them, you can take my pala’s two two mhakpon’s belt, my grandpa’s mee-nyak dree,lots of JFK notes,class xii madame sushma’s biology notes.
    4. face to face meeting..offer them JFK notes.see if positive response.
    5. JFK not working, use my pala’s belt with mhakpon’s buckle.
    6. Still not budging…use my grandpa’s mee-nyak dree.
    7. they probably will gang attack you by now, use madame sushma biology notes…start the sushma’s war on them.
    If they aint giving you whats yours,they aint deserves whats theirs.

    The best science is to be “FAIR”.
    if Unfair….eliminate the UN.

  11. Daveno; if anything rangzen stance is straight forward
    like Subhash Chandra danda on ur chinese head.
    Accusing rangzen people of duplicity is like a whore
    chastising a young woman for sleeping with her
    only lover. Think about ur examples if u want to be
    taken seriosly, guy.

    Here is wat middlepathers need to do gain autonomy:

    1. Go to another meeting. Get yelled at for not
    letting them kill and oppress our monks in peace.
    2. Roll out tongue and let them slap u across the face
    3. If still not satisfied, take off ur pants and them kick u
    In the ass
    4.let them tell you wat to do next.
    a. Say you are Chinese and Proud to be chinese – check
    B. Divide ur people – check
    C. No protest allowed – check
    D. No exile govt- check
    E. No national flag – workung on it
    F. Chinese national anthem- next parliament
    Passed unanimously
    G. Accept taiwan as part of China – of course!!
    I. No chupas, u guys look stupid in it – maybe
    Wait next parliament meeting
    5. Lets talk about next meeting. Why? So, we can
    Talk about the meeting after that, silly boi
    6. Give them genuine autonOmy memorandum with
    Hands shaking.
    7. Tibet already got genuine autonomy, you dumb dumb
    8. We only talk about Return of Dalai Lama,
    Nothing else, when did China say said that? U
    People are stupid. Prove it!
    9. Now go back and tell Dalai lama be good and
    and we let him visit China
    10. Thank u, comrades!
    11. Return to Dharamsala
    12. Declare progress and victory

  12. 13. Boss around popos and momos.
    14. And wait for another chance to see their relatives in china.
    15. Please invite us for negotiations! Please.
    16. We are peaceful and always love chinese.
    17. O.K. So how about negotiation.
    18. Lets see how you are behaving, wait for another year. There are still protest in Kriti and unless you curb those protest, no negotiations.
    19. O.K; hello Tibetans- no protest. Chinese are like our best friends and we are thankful for all their help.
    20. So, middle pather, what are you waiting for? why do you want to negotiate, go back to China and become chinese citizen.
    21. Leave the TGIE to the Rangzenwalas.

    AT least, Rangzenwalas stand tall and follows HHDL’s famous quote, “Never GIve Up”

  13. well, if you really want to split hair, TAR itself wasn’t cracked down upon until after the rebellion.

    It takes two to tango, friend.

  14. I think, unfortunately, the quest for autonomy within the PRC framework could be compared to a quest for freedom inside a prison. The existence of the prison by definition renders freedom impossible.

  15. Dawala: Indeed, PRC is far worse than North Korea or Pol Pot Cambodia. It is a form of totalitarianism much more “refined” and vicious — and consequently far more dangerous — that the crude terror prevailing under Mao. The difference, in addition to an extended use of modern technology to control the masses, is a lot of PR efforts to convince naive outsiders that everything is fine (something that Kim Jong-il has still difficulties to understand).

  16. Dawala-la

    I guess it depends on who you are. If someone is shot in the snow by their “own” government for trying to leave their “own” country, I think you could safely say the country is a prison to them. Especially considering there are many jails in the States where there isn’t even a shoot-to-kill policy for escapees.

    Tibetans effectively are banned from using photocopiers in Lhasa; this oddness is actually very reminiscent of bizarre North Korea-style “policies.”

  17. Dawala: there’s no need to reply to this one, even though you would be surprised of the answer. Anyone with some kind of intelligence can easily make out the prevailing situation in China from what DOES NOT HAPPEN there. If you wish to entertain us with an eulogy of Chinese regime, you’ll need much more inspiration than your stupid question “how often you’ve been there”. My take, however, is that you are not Tibetan; not only it’s difficult to find PRC apologist among us, but more importantly none of us would add LA to his or her own name. Good try, anyway…!

  18. Mr Gyaltsen you are very impolite and you do not deserve any answer. Up to the moderator to judge if my question was “stupid”. YOU are not tibetan ! Maybe you are by name but not in your soul and in your mind. Shame on you.

  19. “Anyone with some kind of intelligence can easily make out the prevailing situation in China from what DOES NOT HAPPEN there. ”

    You give yourself too much credit.

    Let me put it this way. If the CCP were actually the Pol Pot regime, I don’t think there would be many Tibetans left alive for you to claim to speak for.

    Tibet can be sanitized very quickly. Even more so now that the PLA has been building their organic lift capability in the LH regiments.

    What Tibetans have today, despite many unsubstantiated claims from disingenuous cunts like you, is significantly better than what they had 20 years ago, and much better than what the typical third world country enjoys.

    Look at your infant mortality rate. Your literacy rate. Your malnutrition statistics. Tibetans even enjoy affirmative action. Do you know how many slots at national universities are guaranteed for Tibetans? Do you know the average amount of living expense subsidy Tibetans take for granted?

    This is what you have today. What you can have tomorrow is the true systematic oppression and perhaps extermination of Tibetans. What you can have tomorrow is what you worthless retards have been claiming as true for the last 20 years.

    If you want to Talibanize Tibet or make it into Darfur part II, go head. I welcome it, because then, it will finally give the hardliners in Beijing the necessary impetus to put in motion a much more expedient solution to Tibet: bullets in the heads of those Tibetans who deserve them.

    Be careful what you wish for.

  20. Any sense of threat coming from the opponent shows that there is substantial amount of instability and fear within.
    Wishing in front of Jokhang is not an option anymore for Humans to solve their problems.

  21. Chinese Engineer: That’s exactly what I said, some good PR to let naive people believe that everything is fine in China… Unfortunately for you, it’s not on the number of seats in universities that one measures a totalitarian regime. Nor on the number of mass graves (though there are several in Tibet, especially in Amdo Golok). Totalitarianism is defined by the efforts put forth by the state to control and regulate the mind of its citizen. And as far as this is concerned, PRC is far ahead of anyone else — and you seem to be a good product of it, even if you live abroad.

    The rest of you comment is as usual pathetic, void of any humanity. As I said before, you are desperately uninviting.

  22. Mao was a terrorist.
    He came to power using violence & terror.
    CCP is a party that terrorized its own people
    He terrorized the Tibetan Government of Lhasa and forced them to sign the 17 point agreement.

  23. Chinese Engineer (#32,)

    If the people of Tibet “deserve” bullets in their heads for aspiring to freedoms no different from the ones you enjoy in the comfort of your home in the USA, then what do you deserve? You can bullshit as much as you like, but your absence from your Chinese paradise belies all of it.

  24. Dear Wespected Comwade “China Engineer”,

    Pwease don’t tell top secrets about our 武装直升机 to the Wangzen Wallahs!!! You beginner double agent or what?!!

    We have only 8 of these WZ10 helicwopters (plus 6 prototypes) in PLA 5th LH Wegiment. These helicwopters designed for use against armoured formations only – not dispersed formations of skirmishing, unarmed, cunning, well-trained and disciplined rwunning-away nuns and wandalising monks cweverly hiding behind large boulders in steep and narrow himawayan walleys. Also these helicwopters still unproven in operwations and still with qwuestionable abirity to operwate above 4,500m for lengthy combwat engagement perwiods due to engine stwain at altitude. It took many years to develop these helicwopters and we had to steal the technology fwom many countries, after pretending to buy for many years, so pwease not give away these secrwets.

    Pwease also try to be more circumspect in your exaggerated claims, don’t owerstate our capabilities before we are capable and also pwease try not to get so stressed that you use bad swear words. You making the Wangzen Wallahs look like they are slowly wearing you down with the cweaver weason and wogic that our morally bankrupt and increasing schizophrenic and nationlistic wegime is sadly wacking (btw: pwease not tell anyone I told you this last bit – I aweady been in 勞改 one time).

    Best and “gyame kyakpa sa!”

    Comwade Dung
    General (Dogsbody)
    Xizang Desk
    United Fwront Beijing Orifice

  25. In fact, logical or not logical perhaps is not what is taken into consideration here. Approved or not approved is what is taken into consideration. The “TPO” is advised, and it so happened.

    The real logic behind the recent move is something else than what is all put forth in this article. Recent “Statement” is very much self explanatory. Katri Lobsang Sangye may propose to return the word “government in exile” or simply “government”, but it may very well prove un-instrumental, meaning that most probably it wont’t happen: there is good chance that the parliament may never approve it.

    It seems that the whole process is not to appease Beijing (as the article seem to believe), but to make the Dalai Lama Institution a purely religious Institute. It seems that the “Gandhen Photrang” and “Dalai Lama Institution” are but two faces of the same coin. The removal of “Bodshung Gandhen Photrang Chogley Namgyal” is therefore easily understandable.

    Perhaps, it is strongly believed that the Dalai Lama Institution as a purely religious Institute might prove far more powerful than it had been during the past, in terms of working for the Tibetan cause. Beijing has constantly been saying that the Tibetan Government in exile is the remnant of the old Tibetan Government, which according to it (Beijing)is now non-existing in its own land, as it has been replaced the government of the TAR.

    With the recent move, now there is a democratically formed Tibetan people’s organisation, and this organisation is a pan-Tibetan phenomenon. Of course, it may very well be a regrouped pan-Tibetan entity, that has all the capacity to prove The Legitimate Representative of all Tibetan people living under the sky.

  26. ok 37, time to cut the shit.

    Since you clearly know jack shit about air mobile/rapid reaction tactics/ORBAT, let me enlighten you.

    Air mobile operations are not air interdiction operations. You’re not fighting a Motorized Rifles Bat. of the Soviet Union, you’re fighting a bunch of poorly armed and poorly trained Tibetans. PLA’s existing LH regiments are based around Mi-8s and (W)Z-9’s, and I would suggest that you look up these numbers.

    The only problem was that AVIC I/II couldn’t produce a turboshaft of adequate power for high altitude operations, thus the murky acquisition of uprated PT6 from Canada. However, that was 10 years ago, and even if we discount the WZ-9 turboshaft, the entire WZ-10 program is unnecessary for low intensity warfare in Tibet, and Mi-8s are being upgraded with higher output engines from Klimov. That is, by the way, also roughly 10 years ago.

    I haven’t even begun to talk about the Chengdu MR RRU’s. Or Shengyang’s for that matter.

    Since you’re rather dull, let me bring up two (recent) historical examples of mobile/COIN operations: Soviet’s Afghanistan and the 2nd Chechnya war. The latter should be obvious to anyone who dabbles in military history, but the former is much more interesting: even with US involvement, the Mujahadeens were losing, badly. Domestic pressure combined with a failing economy was what drove the Soviets out of Afghanistan, not irrecoverable military setbacks.

    Today, PLA arguably enjoys much better C3I (not to mention that the LH regiments demonstrated a very impressive sortie rate during the 2008 earthquake), and the Tibetans can’t even hold a candle to the participants of the LA riot.

    So please tell me, what do YOU THINK is going to happen when the hammer comes down?

    So 37, it was sort of fun for a while, but your stupidity is getting stale.


  27. The “poorly trained and armed” Vietnamese also faced an acronym-crazed superpower. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.

  28. Superpower: Russia
    Victim: Afghanistan
    Favored: Russia
    Winner: Afghanistan

    Superpower: USA
    Victim: Vietnam
    Favored: USA
    Winner: Vietnam

    Superpower: British Empire
    Victim: The Colonies
    Favored: British Empire
    Winner: The Colonies

    Superpower: Russia
    Victim: Latvia
    Favored: Russia
    Winner: Latvia


  29. Sorry for the trifecta, but I don’t believe PRC helo response was actually stellar:

    A lack of large cargo planes and helicopters and bad weather delayed the arrival of the first batch of 1,300 PLA soldiers in Wenchuan County, close to the epicenter of the earthquake, until 24 hours after the quake. Premier Wen Jiabao, who went to the disaster zone a few hours after that quake, once made a tearful call to the army to send helicopters to save people, but
    there was no response because the army takes its orders only from the Central Military Commission, and Wen has no military rank. The PLA eventually directed helicopters to the disaster area, but only after President Hu Jintao, the CMC chairman, issued the order on May 14, two days

  30. Chinese engineer:
    Ref #8 posting: Regarding Deng’s adaptability to change.
    “No grand plan for the revolution (Deng’s) was ever announced in advance. None probably existed”.

    Mao’s waxing of ‘a 100 flowers’& other CCP ideology led them nowhere but down the bleak path of starvation and poverty. Deng had no other recourse but to be pragmatic, Keep his MOUTH SHUT to save face and hope for the best.
    It was the US that brought China on board. And Western technology that helped China ‘jump start’ it’s ‘boom’.
    But after all the hype of China’s ‘Entrepreneurship’ & productivity on ‘steroids’; The fact remains that you are the world’s Manufacturer – the world’s ‘Coolie’ as JN put it in one of his old articles. Most of the export companies operating with Chinese ‘Coolie labour ‘ are owned by Foreigners including Taiwan. The few that are truly Chinese are traced to some CCP party member. India is emerging as the one that has World class entrepreneurs. They give good tough competition to the equal number of multi nationals operating in that country.
    One must never get too arrogant and forget the not so distant past.

  31. some corrections to 44, Sheila

    Combatant 1: Russia
    Combatant 2: USA, Pakistan, China, Afghanistan
    Favored: 2
    Winner: No one. Afghanistan rapidly turned into the shithole it is today. USA abandoned the country after it lost its strategic value: a meat grinder for the USSR.

    Combatant 1: USA, South Korea, Australia…
    Combatant 2: USSR, China, North Vietnam
    Favored: Undecided
    Winner: No one. After the Vietnam war, Vietnam itself got its shit kicked in by China in 1979. It then went through roughly 2 decades of stunted economic growth due to its disproportionate military spending in fortifying the north against another PRC incursion.

    Combatant 1: British Empire
    Combatant 2: France under Louis something something, the Colonies (you might want to read up on what was happening in Continental Europe at the time)
    Favored: NOT THE BRITISH
    Winner: The Colonies

    Crumbling Superpower: Russia
    Upstart Nobody: Latvia
    Favored: Who knows. Who cares.
    Winner: Even if you win the Special Olympics, you’re still retarded.

    Hindsight’s 20/20, but clearly your reading of history isn’t as complete as it should be.

    (also, on LH reg sortie rate: it was quite high, regardless of the initial response, I was, to be honest, a little shocked)

  32. to 46.

    Good try. But mistakes all over.

    I highly recommend Kissinger’s “On China” if you are truly interested in this period.

    1) Deng had PLENTY of recourse. 100 flowers was NOTHING compared to “Three Years of Natural Disaster”. You think Mao really gave a shit?

    “I don’t care if it’s a white cat or a black cat. It’s a good cat as long as it catches mice” -DXP’s most famous quote. That was in ’61. Deng DIDN’T keep his mouth shut. That’s why he was purged TWICE. Deng Xiao Ping is the last truly great leader of the CCP.

    “It was the US that brought China on board.”
    To the international community, yes.

    “And Western technology that helped China ‘jump start’ it’s ‘boom’.”
    WRONG! It was JAPANESE FDI and JAPANESE CAPITAL GOODS that really jump started the SEZs. The second largest contributor were the Chinese diaspora. US FDI figures did not achieve their proportion of total Chinese FDI until sometime in the 2000’s (After China’s entry into the WTO).

    “The fact remains that you are the world’s Manufacturer – the world’s ‘Coolie’ as JN put it in one of his old articles.”

    And what exactly does JN do for a living? Suffice to say, he, and you, are WRONG. China’s light manufacturing sector is mostly CONTRACT manufacturing. These are not large enterprises. China’s heavy industry was mostly SOE. Essentially, China is undergoing the Japanese transformation in the 70’s and 80’s right now, where wage pressure is forcing low value added manufacturing to lower cost countries (or provinces), and the current sectors climbing up the value chain. I see this first hand.

    “India is emerging as the one that has World class entrepreneurs. ”

    INDIA? INDIA? INDIA CAN’T WIPE THEIR ASS WITHOUT WASTING 6 MONTHS GETTING 2 LAYERS OF GOVERNMENT APPROVAL. India has a LONG way to go. The much praised Indian IT sector employs what? 1% of their population? India has to spend significant more money than China on PPP terms for their foreign military acquisition because they BUY everything? Why? Because they can’t BUILD anything.

    Knowledge is a beautiful thing.

  33. India can’t build anything? Have you actually succumbed to the Han chauvinism thing or are you just memoed to trash India?? The Notion Ink Adam Tablet (Bangalore) is possibly the most anticipated thing it its class.

    MIT Chancellor Eric Grimson said publicly only a few days ago that “…if MIT wants to stay on the forefront of technology, it has to maintain ties with India.”

    Lockheed Martin listed India’s ArrayShield (barely over a year old) internet security technology has won countless awards including Best Product Technology Startup – TechSparks-201.

    These are just a tiny few. I’m not sure how you expect to be taken seriously.

  34. Dear Comwade “China Engineer”,

    Good morning! Dearwy dearwy me, you behave like such a sensitive prima donna chinese ballet girl sometimes. Tut tut tut. Now I know why I was appointed your CCP mentor. It wery normal for mentee to turn on mentor at some stage in the pwocess of mentoring.

    You are making far too many fundamental ewwors. Right now the Wangzen Wallahs are warfing so much at you. You weally woosing your cool again and again, wevealing wack of patience, using bad swear words and showing the paucity of your armchair military and history knowledge. It will be wery obvious to them you just hopping on the internet to Baidu a whole lot of military acronyms and facts you don’t even try to explain just to try to impress these Wangzen Wallahs, see, almost word for word –…/krieger.html

    Surely you can do better than bwuddy Wikipedia! Use Baidupedia for the truth! It wooks wery much like you just making it up as you go along. You need to do much better.

    Now, I been thinking how to get you out of your 95/5 serf owner split bwugger up with this Sheila since she point out 40% proportion was drokpa population. You failed to address this error adequately. Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any way out, she got us by the bwalls, and mine are hurting (you got bwalls right?). Best you formally apologize to her for fundamental ewwor of fact. I dwaft wesponse for you here –

    “Dear Sheila,

    As part of the new internal awangments for the management and supervision of the CCP’s forweign agents acting as part of the 50c Army, we are now required to wecognise the need for twuth, accuracy and accountability in our statements in order to earn our pay. As such, I humbly apowogize for the error of fact regarding my now famous 95/5 serf owner split bwugger up. Pwease accept my humblest aporogy.

    Best wishes etc.

    “China Engineer””

    Pwease now post this aporogy. I know aporogy hard for our stubborn Han chauvinist Asian faces, but this part of new enlightened CCP appwoach. It should make you feel much better, and we can all move on. Try it.

    My boss wery concerned we may need to recall you for weindoctrination and retwaining, especcherry for anger management twaining. Wery likely we will have to put you under a performance management awangement also due to your poor performance, this could impact your pay and bonus. This being discussed internally at committee wevel now.

    As for hammer coming down, you becoming far too paranoid of the Wangzen Wallahs. Where unarmed running-away nuns and monks get guns? CIA not support. India not support. How can CCP cwack down with air mobile/rapid reaction tactics/ORBAT/ LH regiments/ Mi-8s/(W)Z-9/ AVIC I/II/ WZ-9 turboshaft acronym thingies on unarmed population? Wery much danger this will be perceived wery badly by our own China people. Our worst party fear is that the zeitgeist of the people changes and they see through our lies and deceptions. Tiananmen was bad enough. We need to be much more cwever to cling on to power.

    As lowly functionary of CCP, pwease now refwlect on these advices, we don’t want to have to put you in the 勞改.

    Best and “gyame kyakpa sa!”

    Comwade Dung
    General (Dogsbody)
    Xizang Desk
    United Fwont Beijing Ofice

  35. Why are you guys even talking to “Chinese Engineer”. He’s not here to have a dialogue. Who gives a fuck what he says? If anything he’s a prime example of how the Chinese look at Tibet and Tibetans. He doesn’t seem to get, no one gives a shit about all the development China brought or how glorious China is. The fact is Tibetans don’t want China in Tibet, get out and you can take your development with you. It’s as simple as that. There is no need to have any more discussions with this prick if all he wants to do is have a mental masturbation with himself and China. I suggest all of you stop helping him.

  36. “The fact is Tibetans don’t want China in Tibet, get out and you can take your development with you. It’s as simple as that.”

    It’s simple as that, heh? Well, let me ask you, who’s going to make the Chinese leave? You?

  37. They will leave on their own, not by force but with remorse for having been morally unjustified in eating someone else food..But Are they Human?

  38. “Engineer, the point is that those “superpowers” were all evicted by the natives.”

    No Sheila. The point is these natives all has the backing of considerable foreign benefactors. Who’s going to fund your armed insurgency campaign?

    As for your assertion that India has a superior manufacturing sector:

    1) I was talking about military acquisition
    2) Even if you were to look at the manufacturing sector in it’s entirety, not just the MIC, your assertion is still false.

    Since my…interest lies with the MIC, let me layout how India has failed in the last 30 years.

    1) LCA
    2) INSAS
    3) Arjun
    4) MCA (shelfed, switch to PakFa)
    5) BrahMos
    6) ATV (Akula Lease. Or rather, what led to this development)

    You see Sheila, when judging a sector, you can’t just look at its successes, and when it comes to India, the successes are few and far in between.

  39. Ref # 48

    INDIA, India, India……
    It was the country of REFUGE for your countrymen for more than a century for various Economical and Political reasons.
    Growing up in India we never saw Chinese Indians in colleges and universities – they were not technocrats.
    But there were always Chinese restaurants, hair salons & shoe shops in most Indian cities. They were excellent cobblers.
    There was also an Indian -Chinese finalist in the Indian version of American Idol blasting away Bollywood songs.

    India, India….land of freedom, refuge, & now prosperity

  40. prosperity? you’re out of your mind.

    And I also fail to see the point of your post. If you’re trying to say that Chinese Indians in India are typical cast into the lower rungs of the social-economical order, so be it. I really don’t care.

    Let’s talk about India once they build their own military level turbofan.

    Humanity: India has offered refuge to all peoples.
    Humility: Chinese Indians
    Tolerance: Indian society
    BTW – are you on steroids?

  42. @ChineseEngineer

    Countless nations have won independence in countless ways. I said nothing of an armed insurgency for Tibet; only that a less-armed defense has historically worn down/otherwise beat a so-called superpower.

    Resistance doesn’t just happen at the point of a gun. Tibet has a lot going for it, or rather a lot going against it, as far as a place to be “tamed.” For one thing, most Chinese really don’t want to live there for anything other than short stays. This makes it almost uniquely different, in history, from most other places which have been colonized to death.

    Tibet is, in fact, unique.

    I didn’t say India has a superior manufacturing sector, I said it has a promising one (in contrast to your assertion that India creates nothing).

  43. @ #57
    Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh made the FIRST state visit of the OBAMA PRESIDENCY.
    Prime Minister David Cameron’s visit to India (immediately after he took office) aimed @ strengthening relations and creating jobs in the UK was described as the largest UK trade delegation in living memory.
    India is now an established important business and STRATEGIC partner of the Western powers.

  44. All the TibS on this page are just time-passing idle internet debater who should not be taken seriously by anyone.

    By the way, what are these people are arguing? Only about the history, what about the future? Nothing…..too pathetic! self-rightous….


  45. Yes, let’s discuss about our bright future under the Chinese flag and debate on how best we should prepare ourselves to live under a totalitarian system and shut up! NGTB, you’re a genius!

  46. I am so worrying that we are moving toward wrong direction by gave up “Government” by re-branding our government to NGO hope that China possibly sit down with Tibetan NGO directors to end Tibetan’s sufferings. I don’t know who the hell dreamed such horrible means at first place.

    China now is getting even worse on Tibetans on so many ways and killing and murdering, torture and imprisonment increases more then even now. Are we still continue to give up more…..? disappointing see all these terrible decision at Dhasa.

  47. yea….better face reality than you be safe with your family in the west or else where….easier said than be done!


  48. Comment # 52 by “Tibetan” hit the nail on the head:

    Why do we even bother responding to Chinese Engineer’s posts?

    He’s doing a pitch perfect job of baiting you into this pointless exercise of an online dick measuring contest.

    Sheila, do you really think you’re going to convince him of anything that you say?

    He’s like one of those limpwristed, keyboard warriors who get a hard-on from posting military stats. The kind of person who wouldn’t have any compunctions about turning his own mother in if there was the least bit of threat to his safety.

    He doesn’t actually have the balls to do anything close to the stuff he says here, but it’s a way for him to release all these pent up frustrations in his own life (which sounds like it’s based in N America). Why else would anyone spend the better part of his days trolling a website which he concludes is read by sub-humans incapable of thinking on their own.

    I wouldn’t. If I was so awesome, I’d be out doing things that are fun and creative and meaningful. Not hunkered down in front of the computer screen, surrounded by cans of Mountain Dew, all pale and lonely; while gleefully cheering on the wholesale destruction of a group of people who he obviously doesn’t have any connection with.

    Don’t feed this troll.

    For his sake and your own.

  49. It seems that the modus operandi here is: if you can’t deny the facts, kill the messenger.

    My advice to you is this:
    don’t use yourself as a measuring tool against someone else’ circle of competence. You’re not there yet.

    Also, I absolutely do not imbibe in caffeine, nor do I actually spend a lot of time here, but I am certainly enjoying your little exercise of self rationalization. It really demonstrates how ill-educated and insecure you are. Not to mention stupid.

    My stance in life, both personal and professional, is this: facts are facts, regardless of the manner in which they are delivered. If you want to impose a certain view point but can’t exactly stomach the vitriol in which a perfectly logical retort is packaged, you should probably not try to impose in the first place.

    On a bad day, I would add the following:

    In fact, you should put a bullet in your head, because this world is already full of idiots.

  50. “Chinese Engineer” obviously has skin in the game. Perhaps his first post is a clue: back on “INDEPENDENT TIBET – THE FACTS” 2nd May 2010? Usual post, full of BS – in more ways than one I think.


    Former Comrade Dung
    (now living comfortably in Hawaii post defection)

  51. @Lean to Learn

    I take your point. I ask myself this often.

    I guess I feel like survival is a combination of many things–of course it’s the strength that comes from having a position based in truth, but it’s also making that truth clear. Like, if our position is that Tibetans are under attack in Tibet, which we know to be true, yet people are paid all day long to paint over this grim reality using rosy colored paints, whether we like it or not we should chip off that paint. It’s like having to deal with moral vandalism or something.

    But I also realize that in some situations it seem futile to even bother. I keep thinking, though, of the weight that propaganda has carried in the past–Nazi, Soviet, American, whoever–that if we just throw our hands up and let the propaganda pile up, the world really will be smothered by it until it’s impossible to dig out.

    I know it’s annoying to see people just bickering back and forth; I guess maybe a lesson here would be to try and make every post count more.

  52. No.

    The lesson here is to not fuel the genocidal lusts of depraved sociopaths.

    If you can’t make someone see a *bit* of light after PAGES of elucidation, you’re just throwing water at rock. It’s completely pointless.

    Unless you’re some kind of masochist.

    Sorry to be so blunt.

  53. Well, the genocidal lust will be there regardless.

    For me the question is whether or not to let propaganda go unanswered; but I do agree that there are more and less productive ways to get the truth out there.

    How important is online discussion? The e-ternal question.

  54. Precedent alert!

    CNN: Syrian-American Mohamad Soueid has been charged in a conspiracy to collect video and audio recordings and other information about people “in the United States and Syria who were protesting the government of Syria and to provide these materials to Syrian intelligence agencies in order to silence, intimidate and potentially harm the protestors.”

    He is charged with, among other things, conspiring to act and acting as an agent of the Syrian government in the United States without notifying the attorney general as required by law.

    Anyone involved w/Tibet protests in the past few years especially has seen the PRC students/professors with their cameras and videocameras.

    One of my nun friends here says the Chicago consulate has dossiers on every Tibetan man, woman and child in Madison (my town). They take pictures of Tibetans’ houses, cars, yards; they even go to school playgrounds and snap pics of the Tibetan kids during recess.

    Could the Syrian case finally be the legal precedent to start acting against some this illegal behavior in our respective neighborhoods?

  55. “For me the question is whether or not to let propaganda go unanswered”

    next time you mention propaganda, take a look in the mirror.

    Don’t think for a second that you have a monopoly on truth.

  56. It has become necessary now a days to go along with the changes and not be a silent spectator of any lie spreading around about anything.A lie told to a stranger could possibly become a truth to that stranger unless proven otherwise.

  57. @chineseengineer

    I loathe propaganda and I don’t care if it’s happening 11 feet from me or 11,000 miles. Wen or Walker – they’re both guilty. I feel zero urge to defend Walker simply because we have similar melanin levels.

    I remember as a child sitting at night with the little shortwave in my lap, and the poison honey tones of the Vietnamese woman so strong I could feel the radio pulsing in my hands.

    She won, I guess. I wonder if she ever bothered picturing the boats and bodies of her own people which hit our shores louder than her voice.

  58. Since the blog master seems to be reading and occasionally posting comments, the least he could do is to delete all posts that are off topic and off track. Otherwise the post threads simply become meandering and pointless gibberish. Please introduce a little discipline and focus….two traits that we Tibetans can use a healthy dose of in our thinking and actions.

  59. You LOATHE propaganda? If you truly are as you say, you should have taken up some serious and objective analysis a LONG time ago.

    In offering some examples of independence movements that SHOULD closely reflect the situation in Tibet, you named THREE INTERNATIONAL WARS INVOLVING THEIR CONTEMPORARY SUPERPOWER DUOS.

    By labeling the Viet Minh as poorly trained and armed, it’s clear that you have NEVER studied the first Indo China War. Want a quick primer? Go read about Dien Bien Phu.

    By stating that Tibetans do not have a policy of violent resistance (compared to the Palestinians), you failed to account for
    1) the Tibetan armed insurgency that lasted roughly 20 years
    2) Tibetans do not have the capability to mount an organized armed struggle. PLO/Fatah and Hamas operate organized paramilitary forces, with ORBATs that contain, for example, BM21 derivatives.

    So your unspoken assertion that Tibetans are peaceful in nature isn’t really proven. Give them a few thousand untraceable AKs, like what the West/China did with the Afghani’s, and you’ll most likely see another side of Tibetans.

    Let’s not talk about your misunderstanding of tempo of operation, aka SORTIE RATE, and your vastly misconstrued view on the Indian manufacturing sector (Promising? What happened to the Nano, by the way? That had a lot of hype too. Or the Arjun? Why the T-90 replacement? Why the SNEMCA involvement in Kaveri after 15 years of “go it along Indian style”? Why MRCA? No Sheila, India’s manufacturing sector isn’t promising. It’s problematic, especially after the sharp relative falloff in FDI in recent years).

    So all this, and all the drivel from our past conversations, leads me to ask the following question:

    Are you (and everyone else on this blog) fucking serious?

    It seems you (and most Tibetan posters here) make arguments for the sake of argument, with no particular heed paid to their correctness or appropriateness. And THAT, my friend, I cannot really tolerate.

    While I do question the lack of intelligence of most posters on this blog in a rather non-cordial way, I do not use (what I believe to be) false information, or use facts in a misleading manner. And if nothing else, I’m a relatively widely read man. I’m fine with ad hominem – after all, I should take as much as I give – but if you want to dispute what I present as facts, I’d rather that you do some homework first, because by employing a light wave of hand and a few flowery and not very coherent sentences to dismiss what I present, and believe as facts, is to be honest, very insulting.

    Or we can all just forget about this post and get back to the mutual (and quite enjoyable) mud slinging. We’re all here for a good time, right?

  60. My assertion that Tibetans in general have not exercised a policy of violent resistance is accurate.

    Compare the occupation of Tibet to other occupations in history, and you do find without question that Tibet has been exceptionally non-violent over the course of 60 years. I didn’t say there’s never been any violence in Tibet, and I didn’t make a blanket statement that “Tibetans are peaceful,” although statistically it’s accurate to say that Tibetans have been peaceful under occupation compared to other world populations in similar circumstances.

    The Chinese government grasps at a few 1960s operations, desperately patches it to 3.14, and launches a new campaign of painting Tibetans as “violent terrorists” or (in your casse) “violent terrorists-to-be.” But it just isn’t true.

  61. Non-violence. A very interesting issue. Is this an extreme ascetic practice resulting in physical as well as mental self-torture, or is it a principle that advocate a set of practices that avoides such kinds of pains to all living beings irrespective friend or enemy?

  62. A lot of tough resistance can be generated without violence.

    Inside Tibet I feel like there’s an upsurge in this – in resistance, but not violence. (Just because Lhasa saw violence on 3.14 doesn’t mean there’s been a nationwide trend toward violence – there hasn’t been. Well, there has, but it’s Chinese versus Tibetan.)

    “Middle Way versus Rangzen” is such a wrong concept in the first place, for not the least of which reasons is that it’s often interpreted as “nonviolence versus violence.”

    It seems to me the Tibet cause could be 100 times more resistant and still not violate any Middle Way ethic; at the same time as far as I can see Rangzen doesn’t preach violence.

    The Beijing, Inc. infomercials-with-CCP-characteristics drone on that any change in Middle Way is automatically “violence,” and that Rangzen is about becoming suicide bombers.

    I think the human ear and brain are designed to accept information more than to reject it. I still find myself singing the sunny Winston commercial that made me want to smoke cigarettes at Repulse Bay with cool Eurasian (role) models.

    Propaganda should be countered, from within as well as from without: It’s not true that Middle Way is helpless nor that Rangzen is violent.

  63. @82.

    PS You clearly didn’t even read the article. Perhaps you’re illiterate. Perhaps you’re ill and can’t afford to read more than a few dozen words. Perhaps your power went out and you couldn’t finish bullshitting me.

    Either way, let me break down the article you posted.

    So, two guys ranked India highly in a study. How exactly was the study conducted?

    “duo said the index measured the innovation culture in different countries by putting innovation-linked terms like “design thinking“, “Six Sigma“, “open innovation” and “product design” using Google analytics.”

    In order words, they check how many times these words were googled. Do YOU think that’s a comprehensive study of innovation? Because I certainly don’t.

    So you wanted to make the point that the Indians are innovative, heh? Well, let’s see what the article has to say about that.

    “INSEAD, a Paris-based business school, is behind the Global Innovation Index released each year. In a detailed report, countries are ranked on diverse aspects. India’s rank fell six places to 62 in 2011.”

    62nd place. Very innovative.

    “The fact remains that India scores poorly among 135 countries on input factors like execution, human capital and business sophistication, among others.”

    FYI, China is 29th on the list, and Hong Kong is 4th.

    Anyway, there is more.

    “The biggest acknowledgment came from World Bank when it stated in the past that India’s national output could be 4.8 times bigger if Indian companies are able to absorb and use the knowledge that already exists in the economy.”

    Let’s read between the lines here: India in general can’t execute their vision. This has been repeated over and over in the course of the last 2 decades: A lot of hype, not much else.

    “When it comes to spending on research, Indian companies do not even spend 5% of the net sales on research.”

    If we’re assuming he’s still talking about drug companies, this is disastrously low: Pfizer spends something like 40-50% of their revenue on research. If he’s just talking about none finance companies, this number is still extremely subpar.

    The article then talks about the different funding environments in the US and India, and concludes with the following:

    “A long way to go, indeed!”

    So Sheila, what do you have to say for yourself?

  64. “My assertion that Tibetans in general have not exercised a policy of violent resistance is accurate.”

    So how do you explain 15 years of organized armed resistance? You do the Tibetans a disservice by belittling their rather tenacious armed insurgency. If you are willing to die for something, you should be willing to kill for it also.

    3/4 examples you provided involved large scale warfare, and your last example also had its list of martyrs (OMOH killed a bunch of people during that time in Latvia, actually).

    As for your assertion about Chinese propaganda

    1) do not put me in the same sentence. I’m not here to sway public opinion because the opinions of you people matter little. And to be quite honest, CCP’s “propaganda” is for internal consumption. Their PR department is severely lacking in fines and sophistication, something found in ample amounts in Western media and the various media outlets of…your people.

    -(Let’s be honest here, a free press does not equate to an unbiased and well researched press, and journalists do not have incentives nor the faculty to conduct in depth research. I certainly won’t make as much money if I were to devote my…talents to journalism)

    2) I see that you take offense at my comment on human nature. Well Sheila, unfortunately, that’s how it works. Asymmetrical violence is the tool of the disadvantaged and the dispossessed. Tibetans are still human beings, and violence is a language all humans understand. They fought for 15 years when they were provided arms and supplies, and given the opportunity, they will do it again.

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