Highest Mountains to Lowest Gutters

 

In a somewhat lame effort to divert attention away from the widening discussions on the Dharamshala instigated attacks on TYC and Chushigangdruk, some on the religious right have been circulating this photograph of me taken at Camp Hale, Colorado in 2010, where a commemorative plaque was being dedicated to the memory of the 300 Tibetan freedom fighters who were secretly trained there by the CIA, many of whom lost their lives in subsequent operations inside Chinese occupied Tibet. I wrote a piece on the event. It was a reunion of sorts where old trainees and CIA personnel met to share their memories, and of course there was a lot of picture taking.  A young Khampa in a natty suit, looking rather like our respected Sikyong, asked if he could have his photograph taken with me. Of course, I said yes.

Now the people circulating this photograph are claiming that this young man, Dechen Trulku, belongs to a Shugden organization. I didn’t know the young men then or that he was a member of any Shugden group, but even if I did know, I would have taken the photograph with him. I want to be clear about this.

I have always believed that people have a right to their religious beliefs, even if I didn’t agree with them. In a two-part essay I made clear my disagreement with our superstitious beliefs in oracles and protective deities, in particular consultation of oracles by the government to formulate political decisions. I also stated my views on the Shugden controversy in Part Two of the essay:  “I believe people have the right to worship Shugden or any other deity they want, while the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader certainly has the right to object to this on theological grounds and ask people to refrain from such practices. But that is not the problem. The trouble is that the Tibetan government has been inducted to implement the Dalai Lama’s proscription of Shugden worship.” And also  “The Shugden supporters are, of course, are more than exaggerating when they claim that the Dalai Lama’s actions are similar to China’s repression of religious freedom in Tibet. Such statements belittle the genocidal tragedy that the Tibetan people have suffered under Communist Chinese occupation.” I wrote these two essays back in 2003 before I started this blog so readers can check it out on Phayul.com. The many comments alone are hugely entertaining and informative in their own right.

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=9394&t=1

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=9412&t=1

Since then I have not been paying much attention to the Shugden issue, but this business with the photograph troubled me. Is it now a criminal act in our society or a mortal sin in the eyes of the official church to have your photograph taken with a member of the Shuden organization? I asked around and it seems that the answer is yes. I was told that Dharamshala officials were now going around  Tibetan communities making people sign pledges that they would completely ostracize Shugden devotees, not share a meal with them or have anything to do with them in any way. I was told to watch an Al Jazeera documentary on the issue, which was very troubling. I was also told that notices had been issued stating that it was okay to inflict violence on Shugden devotees. I was shocked. I had not known that matters had gotten so out of hand. All concerned Tibetans need to come together to deal with this issue through rational inquiry and calm discussion before, one fine day, we start murdering each other, like the Sunnis and Shias in Iraq or Pakistan, or Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.  If anyone is under any illusion that Buddhists are inherently nonviolent just look back at the way Buddhist monks instigated the killing of Tamils in Sri Lanka, and more recently the killing of Muslims in Burma.

Comments

  1. Honey Boo Boo | May 7th, 2013 | 9:04 pm

    We should all believe in freedom of religious beliefs of every individual.if tomorrow somebody tells me that i cant take teachings from my teacher or guru i know how i will feel. We are also free to mix and mingle with anyone.I’m not saying that all Shugden worshippers are same but this group is indulging in some very shitty talks in their “Tibetan Talk”like calling themselves “Chinese Tibetans” and so on in youtube just very provocative. i’m not amused. This is very old picture and the people who are spreading the picture now is doing mischievous only. I would say boo to them. but i would ask to keep out of religious things. It is very nasty things. we may not believe in all this but so many people are fanatics of either its too good or its too bad.we are with you on rangzen!

  2. ng | May 7th, 2013 | 9:36 pm

    @JN: Earlier in your RFA piece, you said something rather different!!

    You were so concerned that so called improper dressing of Libby Liu might break out a scandal which would be so hard to control once break out. You even cited you were of those who try to control international media that DL has nothing to do with Asahara. You even mentioned that Shugden group uses those accusations to attack DL and advance their agenda. Now, you are again back on your word. Lol…..age makes people’s memory difference……

    Absolutely, people have right to their belief and I think Chinese have a right to erect Dogyal all over Tibet, just to counter exiles destitute.

    After all, it is not mere a religious conflict, it dates back to 5th DL and even 13th DL involved it. Your declaration of 13th DL’s declaration, I feel only suit your political goal rather than a concern of Tibetan people in Tibet.

    I am pretty sure you are no authority on religious matters and leave it to religious experts dissect it. There are plenty out there…both by Tibetans and non-Tibetans. Just like people have right to belief, people also have the right to their tradition. Anyone, distort it, stakeholders has the right to exercise free speech.

    You cannot say you can support Jihadist ideology which is offshoot of Koran in America. Even if you do lightly online in a public, you will be person of interest for the FBI and CIA. Therefore, right to belief stays which certain limits, unlike your brainwashing type of you gullible fanatics who only knows freedom, but not knowing freedom with societal rules. Freedom in America cannot cross interest of nation, no matter how stupid and barbaric is your belief is. It has to fit to society’s normal functioning. Don’t stretch too much, coz we know how shit is this world is, no matter how grand a picture you paint of freedom and your pseudo enthusiastic concern for Tibetans in Tibet.

    My first challenge to you is: Come out with a comprehensive history of Tibet in which entire Tibetan regions of PRC is included before 1959. I read you are facts and figures for an independent Tibet, but I noticed the map you showed is only the one third of cultural Tibet and those dankha and paper moneys are also limited to those regions under the jurisdiction of Ganden Podrang. Or you are only fighting for the land kudras ruled with an iron fist and building million dollar estate in Dorjee Ling?

    NG

  3. Rangzenwalla | May 7th, 2013 | 10:40 pm

    People who accuse Jamyang Norbu la of supporting the shugden organization are grasping at straws with weak arguments. HHDL has taken pictures with many shady individuals like George Bush and Dick Chaney but does that mean that HHDL supports the Iraq invasion? We would all think no. The Shugden controversy is the shame of all Tibetans because we embrace deities and superstition in this day and age, when we know that on a day to day basis they play no part in our lives yet at the same time we defend such ideas only because our holy lamas tell us they are real. Tibetans fighting and hurting each other over deities and invisible beings really bring home to me how far we have to go before we can even talk about things like democracy.

  4. Tsering dorjee | May 7th, 2013 | 11:06 pm

    people are grasping for straws indeed. Little do they know they are displaying the religious intolerance that we say the Chinese are inflicting on us. good job, Idiots! hahaha.

    H.H goes around the world promoting relgious harmony but he can’t tolerate a religous sect that he himself was a part of just a few years ago? What kind of tolerance is that? He can go to Mosques and Churces, whose history is full of violence and destruction. Look around the world. Countless people are daily killed and bombs blasted in places of worship by these very people. DAILY!! Women are subjugated to wearing penguin dresses and if they dared to speak out or go to school or even go without male escort, they could be killed or assualted. But HH calls these religions peaceful. What has Shugden people have done before the decree from HH? Infinitesimally small compared to these religions that are like the plague in the world. If that is not hypocrisy, then I don’t know what hypocrisy is. HH once even called Mao a great person. I guess he didn’t know at the time that asshole is responsible for almost 60 million Chinese deaths under his hegemony. That is omniscience for you.

  5. Joe Hamilton | May 8th, 2013 | 3:40 am

    As the years of my involvement in this tragedy of Tibetans in Tibet and travestie of Tibetans in Exile DRAG on, I continue to be amazed by the antics displayed when Jamyang Norbu la comments or writes on any topic.

    The ” Dalai Lama ” card is played then the “Shugden Ace of Spades” is dealt in an incredibily weak attempt to force JN to throw in his hand !

    Although everyone knows that JN isn´t even at the table, the game continues as if he were.

    What Jamyang Norbu knows and everyone else that has a brain should know, is that history is in the making. Every article, essay, comment and recorded discussion will remain for the future.

    Jamyang Norbu la will go down in Tibetan history as someone that GOT IT,HAD IT and KEPT IT!

    All the fools that didn´t GET IT, NEVER HAD IT or DISPOSED OF IT due to lack of integrity and intelligence, will just go down.

  6. Bakor Bomo | May 8th, 2013 | 4:02 am

    Well said Joe Hamilton!

  7. Tseten Zöchbauer | May 8th, 2013 | 4:25 am

    HH was taken on picture with an Austrian politician who had rather Nazi influence. This photo was on the front page of most our News. I then talked to his office if we should not do something about these rumors now circulating again. The representative said … HH wants even meet those … just the same as the others. How can someone change if he is excluded and kept away from meeting positive examples ?!….
    JN should be reachable for all … Rangzen is not a religious matter and concerns all Tibetans. Trying to harm JN la’s reputation is wasted time and energy, one should invest in Tibetan Freedom movement

  8. Chophel | May 8th, 2013 | 7:12 am

    Even hhdl has taken picture with trijang rinpoche. So for that what we are going to say. I do not think that is different from what jamyang norbu la has taken.

  9. Rikey | May 8th, 2013 | 7:20 am

    This guy is a VOICE.
    A fearless voice.
    Like a double edged dagger,
    It strikes both Left and Right.
    When it strikes
    No one is safe.
    A dangerous voice
    But rare of the type.

  10. daveno | May 8th, 2013 | 7:44 am

    JN. Timely clarification! Nothing wrong with taking picture.
    I can see the excitement on the face and the posture of the guy to have opportunity to take a picture with JN.

  11. Rikdzin | May 8th, 2013 | 9:16 am

    I sympathize with Shugden society on the controversy but I knew Tibetan Buddhism not so tolerant as it seems. Not to mention history of Tibet involves bloody struggle between Bon and Nyingma later Nyingma and Sarma.
    There’s nothing wrong with taking a picture with Shugden member but I don’t trust hypocrite JN. I won’t be surprised he’s one of them and masterminded all the messes.

  12. Compassion's grandfather | May 8th, 2013 | 10:08 am

    Yes. Jamyang Norbu must have also masterminded the invasion of Tibet when he was one year old and then later disguised as one of those who walk around His Holiness so ridiculously as though they have got some sort of horrible back problem. And he must have single handed changed the mind of the TGIE to compromise on Rangzen. He must have done so that he will get really rich talking about Tibetan politics because the whole world is interested in the political situation in Tibet. Supporters in the West are building mega-churches for Jamyang Norbu to give talks about political situation of the Tibetans. He must be loaded with cash by now. Soon he will change his robes to red t shirt and red pants and then he’s gonna marry. And then two and then three on the side and on and on.
    Hypocrites. None of you can hold a thousand candles to Jamyang Norbu.

  13. dorjee | May 8th, 2013 | 10:50 am

    I respect freedom of religious and not complain you fellow Shugden . Also I not complain if you fight for freedom of religious. But today I say very clearly you Shugden follower not fight for freedom of religious. you sell your national to china and earn some money. That is the reality. You see what the Dechen tukul have done . in this day the shegden follower became the red Chinese dog. They harm Tibetan national. That is why you wrong to take picture with him. You said that you fight for Tibet independent. That is great. Do you know what the shugden felloew’s plan. http://www.youtube.com/user/TibetanPublicTalk/videos

  14. Jang Ji | May 8th, 2013 | 11:04 am

    what am i doing here reading all these nonsence comments??? wake up brothers we lost our country we have more to do than talk shit about each others, please wake up,,,,

  15. TIGER | May 8th, 2013 | 11:21 am

    THE QUESTION IS WHY SHUGDEN GROUP LOVE JAMYANG.IS COS THEY ARE CONFIDENT, THAT JAMYANG INDIRECTLY SUPPORTS THEM BY ATTACKING HIS HOLINESS AND TIBETAN GOVERNMENT..AND JOE HAMILTON, TSETEN ZOCHBAUER AND JAMYANG NORBU PARTY ARE COMPARING ARE BEING DEFENSIVE AND HUGE SUPPORTER.. THAT THEY EVEN COMPARE HIM WITH HIS HOLINESS… WHAT A GAMBLER ALL OF YOU ARE.. PSEUDO TIBET LOVERSSSS..

  16. Joe Hamilton | May 8th, 2013 | 11:35 am

    To get back to my favourite Topic I can´t believe how much energy some Tibetans in Exile suddenly have when it comes to attacking anyone or anything connected to Rangzen.

    But the very same People will not raise a finger let alone their voices when dumbass fake Injis dominate the Cause, collect money, make careers, USE HIS HOLINESS in the most shameless of ways, silence the Tibetan voices in their local communities.

    Like Cowards, they stand by and quietly watch how the whole Cause is dragged down to a level that is unworthy of Tibetans in Tibet.

    As the calls for freedom in Tibet get louder and the price they have to pay gets higher, the quieter these Tibetan cowards get and the lower they sink.

    Shame on you for misusing the gift of freedom by committing yourselves to the lowest form of enslavement that exists, the enslavement by your own free will !

  17. Gyaldhong Phurbu Dorji | May 8th, 2013 | 11:42 am

    Mr Jamyang Norbu la: I really admire your tireless spirit of working for our own country, even though at the crucial moment, most of our brothers and sisters are still being the state of religious mind, their minds are filled with only Lama and Truku,Mani and Kyabdru, rather than our issue,our own country, our freedom from brutal Chinese, yet you are still working without anyone to encourage and support from our religious society.

  18. Bhod_Rangzen | May 8th, 2013 | 11:42 am

    @ 16 Joe Hamilton,
    I agree with you 100%. Thats what i want to hear. Thank you!

  19. lhundup | May 8th, 2013 | 12:11 pm

    Hi,Jamyang Norbu,you have written “I was also told that notices had been issued stating that it was okay to inflict violence on Shugden devotees.” So,who told this to you? No Tibetan had told that it is okay to inflict violence on Shugden devotees. May be you are told this by the Chinese officials for cheating you or using you as a puppet.

  20. T.D | May 8th, 2013 | 12:21 pm

    It is very surprising a staunch Rangzen advocate take picture with a core member of Shugden cult who collaborated with PRC. Hypocrisy………

  21. lhundup | May 8th, 2013 | 12:27 pm

    if you really want to be a unbiased patriotic freedom fighter and a valuable writer, you must first give up to be biased yourself. Most of your allegations to H.Holiness and Sikyong are baseless and totally biased.So we lost our trust to you now …………..

  22. tsering topgyal | May 8th, 2013 | 12:57 pm

    It sickens me to no end the vile that is directed towards those who follow Shugden.

    Have we forgotten the great warriors who brought His Holiness to safety were members of Chusi Gangdruk,this great organization’s deity was Dorjee Shugden,and if asked, these warriors would tell the world that they managed to bring their Yeshi Norbu to safety with the blessings of the deity.

    As for certain elements in our society that has targeted Jamyang la for a photograph,ask them about His Holiness taking photograph’s with Nazi sympathizers and others who could only be classified as creatures,ask them and let them squirm in their dark miserable hole where they rightfully belong.

    We do not have to agree with Jamyang la on all his views but we should be grateful that he has the courage to speak his mind in a society that are led by people still traumatized by the effects of Gendun Chophel.

  23. tenzin Dhonyoe | May 8th, 2013 | 12:59 pm

    Lhundup @21: you just hit the nail! I used to respect Jamyang Norbu-la’s critical writings and his stand on Rangzen until he started engaging in baseless accusations against His Holiness and Sikyong. These accusations seem to have bases in reality but they on closer look they are almost always intentionally taken out of context.

    And also the fact that his arm-chair struggle for independence is not directed against the Chinese but against His Holiness and the Tibetan government.

    Every time you read JN’s articles these days, you are excited about his critical thinking. But it always leaves a bad taste in your mouth for the personal attacks and character assasinations he undertake.

    What goes around comes around I guess!

  24. Pemba | May 8th, 2013 | 1:04 pm

    It seems JN has intentionally not written about the destructive elements of whole list of things shugden followers have been doing in our communities.
    JN only says people have right to worship any deities and shows Tibetan govt and communities being harsh and voilent on shugden followers. He is definitely avoiding his criticisms on shugden and letting loose on tgie and HHDL, which only he knows.
    I now have lost respect to JN now,

  25. T.D | May 8th, 2013 | 1:13 pm

    Hello people, it is not that much big deal about JN’s personal faith. The man(dechen tulku) JN took pic with is a core member of shugden cult based in America. It is still not a big deal. But that man has been collaborating with Chinese government. Check out youtube. They are calling themselves as Chinese Tibetan. How can JN don’t know this man? He got even an email of kalden lodoe of RFA.

    Sorry I don’t trust JN anymore….

  26. A Brooklyn Tibetan | May 8th, 2013 | 1:15 pm

    Jamyang Norbu La, please stop your self-serving instigations.
    It is not the end of world to take a picture with a Shugdenwala, it’s really okay.
    Don’t panic, calm-down…….

  27. RINPOCHE | May 8th, 2013 | 1:19 pm

    Jamyang Bhonku, Your shitty dreams have created enough controversy in tibetan community…..get yourself hanged. better go to Old Age Home. Stop all shitty things…fuck u old fool..

  28. wazayak | May 8th, 2013 | 1:30 pm

    In my humble perspective, Jamyang Norbu is on the ideological right and Shugden on the left of the Tibetan diaspora and it’s leadership. To say that they are collaborators is to say that there is no difference between medicine and poison. JN is a doctor with the medicine. His intent is to help the patient (Tibetans). Shugden and it’s venomous manifestations in hostile individuals or groups is the doctor with poison. In open cahoots with the devil (China), their intent is to harm the patient or kill it altogether. Unfortunately, the patient is too sick to realize this difference. He is too happy with the notion that he at least respects the bad doctor’s right to his trade.

  29. A Brooklyn Tibetan | May 8th, 2013 | 1:43 pm

    JAMYANG NORBU LA,
    It is okay to have a picture taken with Dechen Tulku, he is handsome and good looking.
    But is it not fair and not honesty to spread rumors and instigate Tibetans to take sides and fight .
    “I asked around and it seems that the answer is yes. I was told that Dharamshala officials were now going around Tibetan communities making people sign pledges that they would completely ostracize Shugden devotees, not share a meal with them or have anything to do with them in any way. I was told to watch an Al Jazeera documentary on the issue, which was very troubling. I was also told that notices had been issued stating that it was okay to inflict violence on Shugden devotees. I was shocked. I had not known that matters had gotten so out of hand. All concerned Tibetans need to come together to deal with this issue through rational inquiry and calm discussion before, one fine day, we start murdering each other, like the Sunnis and Shias in Iraq or Pakistan, or Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. If anyone is under any illusion that Buddhists are inherently nonviolent just look back at the way Buddhist monks instigated the killing of Tamils in Sri Lanka, and more recently the killing of Muslims in Burma.”

    Earlier this morning when I first started reading piece, You wrote GANDEN PHODTRANG INSTIGATED ATTACKES ON TYC AND CHUSHIGANGDRUK.
    Now you erased GANDEN PHODTRANG and rewrote” Dharamshala instigated attacks on TYC and Chushigangdruk” . Is this typing error and misinformation.
    I’m big fan of your writings and read almost all of your books and articles.
    Please don’t let me down, whenever I talk my friends and old classmates in Tibet on phone , I tell them about you , I told them you are a Tibetan Luxun in America!

  30. 達瓦 | May 8th, 2013 | 1:48 pm

    嘉楊啦:您好!
    我的英文寫作能力不太好,再加上您的藏文也不怎樣,只能用嘉甘的文字來表達個人的意見。我幾乎讀過您所發表的政論文章,感覺您是刺猬性的作家,愛恨分明,以理服人,立場堅強,值得讚許。但有時您疑慮的情緒模糊事實的真相。比如,兇天信仰者一事,您往往用宗教信仰自由的角度來闡釋,我沒話說。但兇天者幕後的政治目地,犯罪記錄,您選擇忘記。今天我給你一些證據兇天們如何當中國的爪子。第一:沒有一個藏人給他們施暴過,僅多不交流而已。但兇天團伙按中國的指示在達蘭薩拉暗殺辯經學院院長洛桑嘉措及兩名助理,然後逃離中國。今天這六名殺手分別在甘孜和成都的公安機關任職。您給我如何解釋?與您一起拍照的那位兇天者,就是中國駐紐約領事館前任藏裔衛剛(仁真洛賽)的好友,常常出入在中國領事館。他們在中國領事館申請經費後給衛剛回扣。第二今年年初中國安排兇天們到西藏康區做宣傳活動,以海外藏人的名義辱罵自焚者愚蠢,讚揚中國的西藏政策。
    我完全不贊成中間道路,西藏本來就是獨立的,我們要復國。我也認為西藏政教分離,民主要提升,加強我們的憲政精神。但不可以跟中國的爪子或暴力分子站隊取悅。
    您必須給大家道歉,否則您就是我們懷中的毒蛇。
    您的知錯對我來說是不僅是精神上的寬慰,更是西藏復國之路上的推力。謝謝您。

  31. Agu Tonpa | May 8th, 2013 | 2:01 pm

    @2 NG:
    we are same, I hate to admit that JN is right. When he accuses our friends, we are emotional and angry. JN rightly said his holiness has nothing to do with Asara even if he took picture with him- and same is true with JN taking picture with Shugdhen followers. WE hate to find out that JN stance is always consistent.

    @ 21 Lundrup and 23 T.Donyoe
    Yeah! I use to like JN because he criticize people i hate. Now, i don’t like JN because he criticize people i like- my sikyong and His holiness.

    We are same, buddy! We don’t check the merits of the criticism/arguments but rather on the subject- who was being criticized. That’s how we judge if the article is fair or bias.

    @ 27 Rinpoche:
    Who created enough controversy?

    Yes, you are right, it’s the barbarian, JN

    Our thinking is same as Chinese govt’s thinking- they are also right when they say- It’s the Tibetan who created the problem/violence/controversy. We all agree that Govt. doesn’t have any role in those controversy. So, those trouble maker should be beaten up, imprisoned, and torture, if you can’t ostracize.

    Damn! i am glad that at least they are many Tibetans who thinks the same way as the great Mother China and I.

    PEOPLE, I PEPEAT:
    Listen to the government’s doctrine and believe in it 100% blindly, and you’ll reach nirvana. Lets listen to the Mother China and go back to TIbet and serve there. If you do not dissent and talk about fairness, justice, human rights- China is a heaven. WE CAN THEN ALWAYS LISTEN TO THE GOVT. AND WILL HAVE A UNIFORM VIEWS WITH NO CONTROVERSY!

    LETS GO,

    YOUR’S AGU

  32. Agu Tonpa | May 8th, 2013 | 2:16 pm

    @ 29 Brooklyn Tibetan,

    You are letting yourself down. not by JN. JN writes shitty all the time.
    What makes you believe JN before and not now?

    We are right–Gaden Phodrang and CTA are different and never talk to each other. Samdhong Rinpoche is pure religious- he was never a politician. And never talk about politics even at the 50 years celebration of CST Dalhousie.

    We are same dude!

    I use to like JN because he criticize people i hate. Now, i don’t like JN because he criticize people i like- my sikyong and His holiness.

    Thats the bottom line. We don’t check the merits of the criticism/arguments but rather on the subject- who was being criticized. That’s how we judge if the article is fair or bias.

    So, before to show thumps to JN to your friends, make sure JN will not criticized our friends, relatives and Phayul Chickpa and the likes.

    Yours Agu

  33. Pasang | May 8th, 2013 | 2:29 pm

    25. T.D. You say that Shugden cult “They are calling themselves as Chinese Tibetans”. But that is what Samdong is calling himself. That is what Midllway people want to be. That is their goal in life to be Chinese Tibetans. That is your goal. You and Dechen Trulku are all selling out. I will ask JN to take a photo with you.

  34. Kalsang Phuntsok | May 8th, 2013 | 2:30 pm

    Instead of inventing allegations against JN of fictional ties to fictional groups, why don’t we see if we can get an answer to the following real evidence based facts which was reported by Maura Moynihan in October of last year. Read at

    http://www.rangzen.net/2012/10/28/tibetans-in-exile-%E2%80%93-passports-or-rc%E2%80%99s-who-gets-what/

    “Like many Fulbright students and CTA officials, Mr. Sangay has been able to acquire property for his family in the U.S., as has his sister and uncle. On August 7, 2007 Mr. Sangay and his wife purchased a two-unit home in Medford, Mass., from his sister Thinley Chodeon for $1 (one dollar), plus assuming a mortgage of $227,000. All mortgage information in the US is in public records. Based on his refinancing on August 20, 2009, Mr. Sangay was paying off his mortgage at a rate of $8,000 per year, but then was somehow able to pay off the remaining $211,000 balance on July 29, 2011 (one week before his inauguration as Kalon Tripa). He now owns a two-unit house in the USA, with no mortgage, that is currently assessed at approximately $346,000 (18.5 million rupees).

    Mr. Sangay has an O1 US visa, and a mortgage-free home Massachusetts, so he has established a secure base in the US, and is on track to become a US citizen, if he has not already done so. Certainly no one begrudges him his success; most Tibetans stranded in India and Nepal would do the same, if they had the chance.”

  35. A brooklyn Tibetan | May 8th, 2013 | 2:31 pm

    Tashi Delek, Agu Tonpa La,
    First of all, my questions were directed to the author of the piece of above writing, but very welcome responses from Sugdenwallas too.
    Secondly , it shows inmature and laziness of you that copy and paste same comment to everyone.
    Third, first , please read and understand other’s comments, then say your thoughts.

  36. PemaKarmaTenzing | May 8th, 2013 | 2:35 pm

    Everybody has the right to be Non- religious, Superstitious, Ritualistic, & worship their deity stopping short of fundamentalism (talk of ‘pure’ ‘exclusivity’) hopefully.
    My empathy goes out for the (materialistically poor) Tibetans living on the fringes of society in exile settlements. They don’t seem to have any jindas protecting or speaking up for them for their beliefs. I saw them on a utube – I don’t know if the Delhi shugden society has given them help or not by now.

  37. Agu Tonpa | May 8th, 2013 | 2:41 pm

    @Brooklyn Tibetan

    We are in the same team- no need argument. We don’t have time to read and comprehend the author’s main point in the article. Just jump to conclusion to the points we don’t like…

    Lets read # 34 carefully. Sounds interesting– but i bet they hate my guru- our Supreme President of Tibet- so, I’ll conclude that the article is bias.

    Yours Agu

  38. ng | May 8th, 2013 | 2:44 pm

    @agu: I doubt about JN’s correctness about every furt comes out of his ass. You did not read carefully between the lines. JN was trying to protect his interest when he accussed virtually every major exile personalities during his RFA crusade, he claimed to be protecting kundin by saying Libby Liu’s improper dressing and taking picture with DL. He threw in the Asahara’s allegations, he also cite how Shugden’s used such baseless accussations to attack CTA and DL. Now he turned around and saying Shugden is the sort of victim. A person caanot be both a victim and non victim at the same time, being an instigator or receiver of instigation. As far as jn is concerned, he has no credibility to write on religious matter. He can only be taken seriously if you back into history and put things in context. Jamyang norbu only wrrites some sensational issues under the garb of freedom and democracy, he is so intolerant of others view when he writes with total hatred, hatred blurs his ability to think with clarity. Jn’s rangzen project has huge loophole in his presentation of historical facts. Agu, ask your agu jn to give us when was whole of was independent. Personally, I got no stake in exile community, whether china pressure india and shutdown cta and force settlements Tibetans to deplorable lives. Whether they adopt indian or any foreign citizeenship, whether they speak Tibetan or not….it is none of my fucking business. But when you try us, the tibetans in Tibet as bullet for your political arguments. I would stand out and up, say fuck you. I am no dumb idiots like sefs kudras like jn’s family owned. Take care of your life…..

    Ng

  39. A Brooklyn Tibetan | May 8th, 2013 | 2:49 pm

    Hello Agu La,
    You try hard to be sarcastic, but once again i want you to re-read my comment #29 and then say your thought on the comment if you want.

  40. T.D | May 8th, 2013 | 2:54 pm

    33 pasang and other,
    It is such a shame that a Rangzen fighter took pic with a person who has been collaborating with Chinese government for many years. I am hundred percent sure JN knew that person. But JN did not have the courage to say “sorry… I don’t want to take pic with you.”

    That person is a chinese COLLABORATOR!!!!!! that is main point. Don’t forget that.

  41. Jamyang Norbu | May 8th, 2013 | 2:55 pm

    Dear @ 29 Brooklyn Tibetan la,
    Since you were nice enough to call me a Tibetan Lu Xun, and Lu Xun is a writer I admire tremendously, I will try and answer your questions. You may have noticed that I had not finished my post at the time you first read it. I accidently clicked on the “publish” button. After finishing I edited my piece and made some changes. That’s all.

    Also I am not “instigating Tibetans to take sides and fight”. I am instead trying to warn Tibetans not to take sides and not get involved in fights. I am intellectually and politically opposed to all worship of oracles deities. I only take refuge in the Buddha

    Best wishes

  42. tsering topgyal | May 8th, 2013 | 3:22 pm

    A few years ago,the Litang community in New York led by Thomtok Trulku had asked it’s members to sign a document pledging that they were not followers of the deity,this pledge was presented to His Holiness,soon after he was made the Khenpo of Namgyal Monastery in Dharamsala.

    A year later the Litang community again at the insistence of this Trulku made it’s members sign a pledge that they would not associate with any person who practiced the deity.Some in the Litang community have signed as there have been cases in Tibet where those who have not signed the pledge have been considered anti Kundun and therefore when a family member passes away,no priest would be there to offer the last rites and this family would be an outcast in their community.

    If the Shugden Society are colluding with the Chinese,then they would be traitors as are those who follow the Middle Way,both have the same goals of becoming Chinese citizens.

    I also know of some who follow the Middle Way and yet cry out for ‘Free Tibet’ during demonstration’s…why?

  43. ng | May 8th, 2013 | 3:45 pm

    @tsering topgyal: you, and people of your type are also traitor for abandoning Tibetan nation and enjoying in the midst of Broklyn…..
    Ng

  44. tsering topgyal | May 8th, 2013 | 4:08 pm

    NG
    where is Broklyn? and why do you call Tibetan nation? isn’t it Chinese nation for you?
    … and NO,I am not enjoying as I spend my free time trying to heal the blind…and sadly there are far too many of you.

  45. Reality | May 8th, 2013 | 4:42 pm

    42@Tsering Topgyal,

    In the name of democracy, if you started highlighting Shugden to be good, then you are wrong in many ways. This spirit worship brings temporary happiness and power in the materialistic world but in the long run it will split your family and bring misfortune among those of your neighbour. Shugen is one spirit need to be liberated by the great Indian guru Padmasambhava. Why in the first place, we as a Buddhist need to follow the worldly maras, when there are authentic teachings of the Great Masters available all time. If we let go our True Religion for the temporary benefits of this spirit, then we are all bunch of losers on the way to Nirvana.

  46. ng | May 8th, 2013 | 4:44 pm

    @tsering: first heal your mama and papa from the superstition of indic religion propagated by your guru sahdu padma sambawa…..then heal your guru jamyang norbufor taking refuge founder of the religion called buddha who was essentially a hindu sadhu…….victory true Tibetan religion, Bon.

    Ng

  47. ng | May 8th, 2013 | 4:46 pm

    I have more right to call tibet in any names than you runnaway crookers who never set a foot on the land……enjoy your fate……

    Ng

  48. Respect | May 8th, 2013 | 4:51 pm

    1)I would like to point out that it would be ridiculous to ask the entire life story and all political views of anyone who asks to take a picture with you.
    Then what would you do? Believe them? No, you would have to do research.
    So no one could ever have their photo taken with anyone ever again.

    2)The situation in Tibet has gone way beyond that of an EMERGENCY. I suggest that all people interested in bringing anything like human rights and dignity to the Tibetans in Tibet stop wasting their energy on fighting amongst themselves. Focus on doing what YOU feel is right, alone or with whatever group you choose, and remember to respect others.

  49. Lhasawa | May 8th, 2013 | 4:54 pm

    Jamyang dorji shugden norbu la,
    You don’t need to clarify for all the matters cause we all dorji shugden followers are with u all the way ahead ….. I was very happy wth what u said above in article. “even if I did know him, I would have taken photograph with him ” who cares right ? Since we don’t agree with the Dalai lama and his people …. thats it …. if they need more pic of jamyang la with our party’s members …. I have some more … who give the fuck ???
    Jamyang la dorji shungden bless you all the time ……

  50. Reality | May 8th, 2013 | 5:07 pm

    NG,

    Don’t create false impression. You are one sided when you defend Bon to be the ultimate healer. Actually if you take a peep into the Tibetan Buddhism, there are many other Religion like Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, and the vast number of Tibetan populace follow it. So where is the link to your source material?

  51. Dr.X | May 8th, 2013 | 5:08 pm

    NG, I know you are the one who created that scene at the US embassy when your visa application was rejected. Why did you pretended to be a monk when you are not? If your visa got rejected that is your fault. Why are you complaining? Besides You can always go back to your motherland China.

  52. Compassion's grandfather | May 8th, 2013 | 5:20 pm

    @47

    Stop personal attacks. It doesn’t help. If you have concrete facts and you can present them without sounding hysterical we are all ears. What is unacceptable is personal grudge aired out as though it’s some sort of valid argument having to do with the Tibetan cause.

    If I were Jamyang Norbu la I won’t apologize for taking photos with anybody but get the IP addresses and bring libel suit against these cowardly sons of bitches.

  53. TIGER | May 8th, 2013 | 5:51 pm

    jamyang norbu neither loves/cares for tibet nor he believes in independence of tibet.. his only aim is to create violence in the name of RANGZEN . we must accept he is amazing in writing , a great writer whose writing is full of hatred, negativity. as you always promote yourself superior to his holiness in the name of freedom/democracy/independence.. you have made a joke out of independence for tibet…
    i will never forgive you for criticising his holiness every now and then and creating mess in tibetan society.. karma will come back to you

  54. Namgyal | May 8th, 2013 | 5:57 pm

    Well, I have been reading all the comments from everybody and it seems we all are still so uneducated – Just attacking without no reason. JN has put up his thoughts and its our own mind to research and understand the sensitive issues. As far as I think he is a straight forward person writing about issues which concerns all of us. Why don’t we all just relax, think about it and start writing in a civilized manner. If you can’t do these simple things, then we definitely need to be occupied and ruled by the Communist.

    United we win, Divided we lose

  55. rangzen1 | May 8th, 2013 | 6:05 pm

    first of all,we tibetans are very SHAMEFUL…..how can we defame such a true tibetan freedom fighter like JN la,his contribution to our society is tremendous,he’s one in a millions,n wats the problem with taking picture with dechen tulku,after all he’s also a tibetan & wats there even if he is a shugden practitioners,we r living in 3rd millennium,people r traveling in moon & space n soon reaching in mars,and we tibetans r STILL lepa jangku n fighting for deities which we cannot see…instead of living in harmony with buddhas teaching if we r real practitioners,even HHDL took pictures with many personality like Asahara does that mean HHDL has connection with his bloodshed????
    i m sure its a full another plan to destroy JN la’s hard work…….

  56. palden lhamo | May 8th, 2013 | 6:38 pm

    How we treated our own brother s and sisters for believing in their deity will be read by our children and they will ask what did you do mom and we will say “at that time, to say it was a religious persecution was thought to be berating hhdl”. Then they will say did hhdl know about it. We will say he did not and hope they believe us.

  57. Lhasawa | May 8th, 2013 | 6:45 pm

    #48 r you asking about more pic as mentioned before or what ? Who is attacking whom for what grudge is about. ? Why he has to apologise, for what ? The truth is the truth. … he belong to us and blessed by dorji shugden…. so why people are ccrying for the pic ? Just calm down n sleep well ….

  58. Lhasawa | May 8th, 2013 | 6:48 pm

    #50 thanks for understanding about religious persecution and supporting us……

  59. PemaKarmaTenzin | May 8th, 2013 | 7:51 pm

    So who then is Dechen trulku? – Is he the one who organizes the Tibetan public talk – courtesy of the link by SFT Tendorla ? Is he an activist or another counterfeit khampa?

  60. Rangzenwalla | May 8th, 2013 | 8:46 pm

    Lhasawa, who created these superstitious ideas like deities,dorjee shugden in the first place? a person like Jamyang Norbu la or a person like HHDL?

  61. Tsering Dolker | May 8th, 2013 | 8:59 pm

    We. Are. So. Retarded. It. Is. Like. Listening. To. Medieval. People. Talking. About. Invisible.Deities!!! Hahaha

    Next, Jamyangnorbu will be accused of taking picture with an Alien out of space in order to dominate the world. Keep on talking you stupid pea-brained Neolithic people. Let me know when you arrive in the 21st century. Hahaha oh my friends will have a good laugh over this.

  62. Young Punk | May 8th, 2013 | 9:15 pm

    NG – how you are still able to spew your bullshit while being engaged with your lefty and righty GFs is beyond me. Try some blue pills, they will help you bone up and come, er I mean calm down. Later loser!

  63. Honey Boo Boo | May 8th, 2013 | 10:12 pm

    I really admire and appreciate work of Rangzen activists. Your modern education and modern democracy knowledge is very high I’m sure and very good. But one thing you can consider is that there may be things of the human psyche and spirit realm that you may not know. And the old traditions may have a better understanding of those things.please keep an open mind. you don’t have to believe but that doesn’t mean its not there. unfortunately, because many people have little knowledge of it and out of fear and awe , they become like superstitious. And i think its difficult to explain well to the unbelievers as well as the superstitious lot. don’t just say “superstition” on something you don’t understand and not inclined to explore. oh no, i’m not a clairvoyant or a medium.

  64. Rangzenwalla | May 8th, 2013 | 10:45 pm

    #63

    There might be flying spaghetti monsters, there might be leprechauns and elves. There Might Be billions of invisible things I can imagine. To ask people to keep an open mind to the veracity of whatever I can imagine is to ask people to willfully confuse fact and fantasy.

  65. NG | May 8th, 2013 | 11:01 pm

    JN’s story about Buddhism’s inherent violence is not complete, maybe he is unwilling to say it completely because he himself is a part of a cult worship of a religion founded by an Indian Sudhu. Naturally JN will pick out those fit his political philosophy. I would everyone know the entire story of Buddhist violence and violence of Lords, the aristocrats and Lamas sucking on blood of gullible and superstitious Tibetans. Welcome to the world of Friendly Feudalism! Lamas and Kudras can hide and run, but cannot cover your asses from fact checkers forever.

    http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

    NG

  66. disappointed | May 8th, 2013 | 11:21 pm

    Having loved reading Jamyang Norbu’s literature for so long, it is really disappointing and heartbreaking to realise what he has turned into these days. He has become more of a nuisance than a constructive intellectual. As a respected Tibetan intellectual, he should use his expertise to unite the Tibetan people towards the cause rather than divide the people with stupid vacuous reasonings.

    For an intellectual, he seems rather stupid sometimes. If he really cares about Tibet, rangzen or whatever, he should direct his ire towards China rather Than His Holiness as Prof. S Rinpoche said. SHugden and rangzen makes strange bed fellows. both can never be compared on an equal footing.

  67. Agu Tonpa | May 8th, 2013 | 11:58 pm

    @ NG: You are right: We hate Kudrak of the past (Like JN, Tethong), but we love Kudrak of the present (Like LS and Samdhong).

    You are Right: We bemoan the loss of Gedun Choephel but making sure this 21st century Gedun Choephel (JN) meet the same fate.

    You and I are same- We do not question Samdhong of his misuse of TGiE treasure chest and misuse of Gaden Phodrang trust fund. We do not Ask Lobsang Sangay about this year’s CTA Budget deficit nor do we ask about his lump sum payment amount of $200,000 plus (US dollars) to pay off his house in the outskirt of Boston.

    But, we’ll make sure to question everything about old kudrak’s action– making sure we blame the budget deficit for Tethong, motives of JN etc etc– because we hate the old Kudrak and love the new Kudraks.

    And off course, we know that both Tethong and JN was born as Kudrak but lived in exile like us. They are both good in studies but forego further studies in order to serve TGiE

    You and I are same; Hate Kudrak like JN and Tethong, Shugdhen followers who are having cosy relationship with China. We are middle way people who are little jealous of China’s attention to Shugdhen than our Middle Way memorandum. But China is cool- we want to remain with them. We will proudly held Chinese flag because we are buddhist and are compassionate.

    But Darn it! You and I cannot tolerate our own people

    Haha.. We are same– as we claim ourselve as Pragmatic??? Indeed!

    Yours Agu.

  68. ng | May 9th, 2013 | 12:20 am

    @Agu:Earlier kudras sucked people’s blood and made millions and built million dollars estate in the hill station of Dorjee Ling.

    “Many feel that the man who showed his commitment to Tibet by leaving behind a multi-million-dollar estate in Darjeeling to join a small refugee community in Dharamshala, and who would later go to the extent of joining Chushi Gangdruk to fight for his country, is now bringing more harm than help to our struggle.”

    http://www.tibetsun.com/opinions/2013/04/28/a-true-son-of-tibet

    Present Kudras, not only don’t have such luxury, but also limited with time period in that kudra position for one or maximum two terms, like any kudras president of United States or any so called regulated democratic country of the world.
    Kudra LS hands has no bloody history and hopefully his fathers secretly did not transport millions dollars wealth into India on donkeys when ordinaries challenged the Chinese, like then blood sucking kudras. Read Friendly Feudalism by Michael Parent, he not only dissect myth of peaceful Buddhism, but also lords and lamas of old Tibet.

    http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

    NG

  69. Agu Tonpa | May 9th, 2013 | 12:30 am

    @ Disappointed:

    You and i are same: We hate JN and thinks stupid but always read his article.

    Yeah! I use to like JN because he criticize people i hate. Now, i don’t like JN because he criticize people i like- my sikyong and Samdhong Rinpoche.

    We are same, buddy! We don’t check the merits of the criticism/arguments but rather on the subject- who was being criticized. That’s how we judge if the article is fair or bias.

    We are same buddy! we believe His Holiness is Thamche Khenpa literally and Samdhong Rinpoche too who made millions of Dollars for the TGIE.

    We know that Samdhong Rinpoche is Right that Rangzen ire should be directed to China and not Dharamsala. Because we know that CTA is innocent and the Middle way policy is adopted by China and not really desired by CTA.

    Samdhong Rinpoche is great- he always acts like the Supreme Supreme President of TIbet. We are same as we appreciate Samdhong who cannot remain apolitical even during the election. Even at the CST 50th year celebration he manage to sucker punch the Rangzen advocate.

    We love Samdhong as he hate so much about TYC, JN and those who act and are more intelligent that him. But, we love China, and make chinese our friend,- we are buddhist and compassionate- give away rangzen.
    But CANNOT TOLERATE those Tibetan who criticize.

    We are same— We seriously think that the Rangzenwalas are the real enemy of His holiness and Tibet because they killed 1.2 million Tibetans and destroyed over 6000 monasteries…. Oooops!

    It’s Not them- Its China who did those nasty things.

    But never mind, We are Buddhist and compassionate. China is our best teachers!

    Yours Agu

  70. Bakor Bomo | May 9th, 2013 | 3:02 am

    Many of these comments show we still don’t ‘GET IT’
    Yes Joe Hamilton, we never GOT IT from the time of the ill fated Lhunpo Gawa.We imprisoned and blinded Tsepon Lungshar when he wanted to reform our Medieval Theocracy and what about Khungrum, banished riding a donkey backwards because he too was a visionary.There’s a pattern here guys…fortunately Jamyang Norbula is safely settled in an egalitarian country and these Orwellian sheep can only bay for his blood in print!

  71. kelsang | May 9th, 2013 | 4:32 am

    I really do not understand what those follies of Tibetans are barking for….sometimes…I just feel that Tibet is still in madness and never have been rid from those old and dirty habits. those Tibetans do not have any sense of brotherhood and pushing up force to try to put their brothers and sisters on the top…they just want to pull off all those men whom they are dislike….long time back…they often used the so called “Taiwan Money”to try to pull off people were doing well at that time….of course…that was not lasted for long…because later, even those pullers themselves went behind of that so called Taiwan Money……after some time then….they adopted “Shugden vs the dalai lama”as the main tool to pull off all those Tibetans they are doing good…or they are assumed could be good……not very long….I think “TYC”could be their tool too…. Tibet has been already hopeless….and Tibetans are already folly….ample of opportunities are been missed….ample of smart and able men have been pulled off to the deep down of ruthless bottom …..

  72. T.D | May 9th, 2013 | 4:55 am

    It seems most people here don’t understand the political significance of shugden cult.

    They are collaborating with Chinese government.

  73. Tendar Tsering | May 9th, 2013 | 5:48 am

    Be wary of ‘Chinese spies’ in the name of pro-Tibet who are trying to divide our society– who not only accuse Tibetan activists, journalists and supports on the social networks but asking them to come out to fight in person. I hope ‘Chinese spies’ disguised as Tibet supporters will feel that we have caught them–run away ‘spies’, we can feel your presence through your criticism and threats.

  74. Tsering Dolker | May 9th, 2013 | 5:56 am

    TD: were they collaborating with the Chinese before we banished them from our society?

  75. One who fears to disclose one's identity | May 9th, 2013 | 5:59 am

    Wonder will we again practice this banned ‘religion’ in case if the next Dalai Lama asks to do? As of now, I am sure, he will not ask but then again we know that (HH is our lord Buddha) Buddha gives teachings based on time, environment which can be most suitable to the people of at that time. Moreover, the previous Dalai Lamas were also Dalai Lamas (lord Buddha) but again we can say since they were in the form human being, they could make mistakes. If we accept, the Dalai Lama can make mistakes, then in case, if our next Dalai Lama makes a mistake and asks us to follow what the previous Dalai Lama has banned, what will we do? — just a light-feather in a windy-storm?

  76. palden lhamo | May 9th, 2013 | 7:06 am

    Like cta is not collaborating with ccp. Cta is now china’s hatchet man trying hard to defang tyc. You guys will never get !

  77. tendor | May 9th, 2013 | 8:21 am

    Shugden cult and the followers are the gelug fundamentalist who cannot tolerate His Holiness or any other leaders interaction with other sect or religion, thus jeopardizing Tibets trajectory as dreamed by majority of the Tibetans

  78. Kalsang Phuntsok | May 9th, 2013 | 9:08 am

    All oracle and spirit worship are equally ridiculous. Why just target one?

    Tendor @ 73, I have lived long enough in exile community to tell you that there was never a open division among various sects before this issue was made public. What ever the differences that may have existed before, it never led to people being ostracized, fired from government or non-government jobs and even physically attacked. There always are fundamentalists in all religions. What I can clearly remember is that these differences became toxic after this issue was stirred up. This all happened only after u-know-who publicly raised the issue. This was a fight among the Lamas that was deliberately tossed onto the lay population to fight.

    Yes, some Shugden people reacted in a very strong way. And I wish they had reacted differently. It was alleged that those people who murdered the 3 monks in Tsengyi Dratsang were affiliated to Shugden groups. I don’t even for one second condone those heinous crimes, but these allegations were never conclusively proved in Indian court of law. One suspect is alleged to have escaped to China. They may very well have been Chinese spies, but why condemn a whole section of our own community to persecutions. What did we gain from all this?

    I remember during the 2008 US Presidential election campaign, the Republicans were attacking Obama alleging that he was a Muslim. At that time Colin Powell, a Republican who endorsed Obama, when asked what he think of this attack, he said he obviously doesn’t think Obama is a Muslim, but the real question we all should be asking is “So What? (even if he is)”. I think there is a lesson we Tibetans can learn from this.

  79. Young Punk | May 9th, 2013 | 9:17 am

    #70 why shouldn’t they, we treat them like crap! CTA wants desperately collaborate with china but china just ignores it! What’s up with that?

  80. Tsunddru | May 9th, 2013 | 10:09 am

    Caught up in our Karmic Knot
    In the Gordon Knot
    (And CCP is the one that benefits from all this).
    Now to release now to untie………………

  81. J. Dorjee | May 9th, 2013 | 10:21 am

    JN has given a balanced response on the photograph which is welcome. I suggest he should not waste his precious time in clarifying further on the issue of deities or oracles. I believe that JN is one our finest intellectual who has contributed much to the Tibetan world of art and literature in exile and is a self made man.I see in the post some people trying to paint him with colors that suits them which is unfortunate.

  82. Dawa | May 9th, 2013 | 12:30 pm

    I just saw the Aljazeera documentary. I didn’t know it was this bad. It’s not only embarrassing but deeeply disturbing. If Shugden worshipers turn to China our society is to blame for ostracizing them. What they do with China cannot compare to what TGIE to our country.
    I don’t pretend to know the theological back ground to all of these but we live in the world of humans where the central authority should administer human laws and not things based on what a spirit said.
    Remember Mahabarata and Ramamayana where the gods use the humans as pawns to fulfill their petty desires. We are just like that. Try to learn from these age old lessons.

  83. T.D | May 9th, 2013 | 12:47 pm

    Tsering Dolker,
    Yes, absolutely. Here one clarification is needed. None of them is banished. You go to South India and see yourself. They are still in their own home or in their monastery. In monastery everything has been divided and got fair share. so no question of ‘banish’.

    Long before this issue is just within the domain of gelugpa school and nyimngma school. It is problem of Gelugpa school. none of ours. Then in 1990s they started collaborating with Chinese and murdered Tsenyi Geshe Lak and his two disciples in 1996.

    and several years back, they started distributing pamphlet openly among monks denouncing H.H the Dalai Lama and declaring Tibet as part of China….

    And the person who is with JN in that pic has been anchoring Tibetan Public talk. Calling themselves Chinese Tibetan and aligning himself with Chinese. You know what…. They are receiving fund from Chinese.

    Can you imagine a public personality like JN taking pic with Chinese collaborator????? I cannot digest that… what would be JN’s reaction if someone in Gangchen Kyishong taken pic with a Chinese collaborator?????

  84. Agu Tonpa | May 9th, 2013 | 12:55 pm

    @ 68 NG:
    You are right, we are in the same team– We hate Kudrak who makes millions.
    But we don’t accuse Present Kudrak like LS and Samdhong sucking blood from the innocent and poor exile people as well as people from Tibet.

    We will not ask Present Kudrak LS how he got that $200000 Plus dollars to pay off the house mortage just before his Inauguration.

    We wonder why Tethong became US citizen and wonder about his financial embezelment while he was still living in the apt until just few years ago.

    We are same, buddy- We will never Question about the new Kudrak LS green card and Wife’s U.S citizenship. LS consider LS sacrificing for Tibet while JN and tethong, those sons of old kudrak, their service was nothing.

    This is how our reason out– Signs of the mastery of Tsen-nyi- which we are good at.

    Yes, We know that present kudrak has time limit: Look at Samdhong Rinpoche- He doesn’t hold any power in Gadhen phodrang. He is a simple monk and he cannot make LS and his comrade Lobsang Nyendak fulfil his agenda.
    Look at Gyari- One is not Kalon, the other not a powerful person in DC, and the oher gyari is not holding any power in Japan.
    Look at Kalsang Gyaltsen: He is not making his home as his office and doesn’t get rent from the CTA to payoff his mortagage.

    There are many new kudrak with such benefits and we know more than that. But we know they are the true son of Tibet and who only cares about Tibet. We’ll not raise question let alone doubt about their motives– while we make sure to maim and threatened those who criticize.

    I am telling you NG, We are same and in the same Boat—

    We bemoan the death and ill treatment of Gedun Choephel by the old Kudraks while we make sure this new Gedun Choephel (JN) suffer the same fate.

    And we know in the old Tibet- there are the Kudraks and there’re Kushoks who are equally bad– yes, we know they are not all bad.

    But we refuse to acknowledge the wrong doings of even one Kushoks while making sure to label all kudrak as same – ALL BAD PEOPLE!

    This is how we reason out— You MORON.
    Aren’t we better???

    Yours AGU.

  85. Disappointed | May 9th, 2013 | 1:07 pm

    @agu
    With a moniker like agu tonpa, u seem to be a disgrace towards the fabled Tibetan character. Unlike aku tonpa, u lack the ability to discern facts from fiction and unfounded speculations that jamyang norbu seems to spewing one after another these days.

    Jamyang norbu is using the rangzen card to create schisms among the Tibetan community. In his last two articles, he also seems to insinuate that all khampas shud support rangzen and those who support the MWA are counterfeit khampas.

    Jamyang la, as a former fan of ur writings, I suggest u to use ur spare time, which u seem to have plenty these days, to write a sequel to your ” the mandala of Sherlock Holmes”. It will get u name, fame and may even regain some “lost ” respect. As the old adage goes, empty mind Is a devil’s workshop, so pls don’t let the devil shugden use ur brain as ts workshop. U r not that stupid n naive, I hope so at least.

  86. Agu Tonpa | May 9th, 2013 | 1:10 pm

    @ 83 T.D.

    Yes, T.D– I cannot imagine JN having picture with the Chinese collaborator.

    But, i can imagine HH taking picture with Asara, with libby Liu with mini skirt.
    I can also imagine LS taking picture with Chinese collaborator and i can imagine LS going to CHINA to meet the boss of those collaborator on a chinese passport claiming as OVERSEA CHINESE.

    It’s the Fricking JN thats not O.K. — MIND YOU!

    Yes, we have proof that shugdhen practitioner are chinese collaborator– Yes, i saw them going to China like LS did on OVERSEA Chinese Visa.
    I cannot imagine JN taking picture with shugdhen followers but i can imagine His Holiness surrounded by Shugdhen propitiators:

    LS uncle is a shugdhen propitiator, Sandhong teachers were propitiators, Dhenma Lochoe is practitioner— But, there are ok because of the reason we can only understand.

    Aren’t we Better?????
    Yours AGU

  87. Pasang | May 9th, 2013 | 1:22 pm

    Have you seen that crazy french bitch who calims LS is emonation of the Dalai Lama and Guru Rimpoche and who has been lieing about JN on Face book. Check out Angry Tibet girls taking her down
    http://angrytibetangirl.tumblr.com/post/17351979416/who-the-fuck-is-this-french-bitch

  88. Dhasa Dhaba | May 9th, 2013 | 1:46 pm

    @87 Pasang la,

    That’s not the craziest thing about this. The official Facebook page of our honourable Sikyong RE-POSTED this message about LS being the emination of HHDL and Guru Rinpoche. https://www.facebook.com/SIKYONG.LOBSANG.SANGAY/posts/304149716383754

    It’s one thing for some crazy girl to spot off. It’s entirely a different matter for the Sikyong to re-post it. That means he AGREES!

    Aren’t we all lucky as Tibeans to have as our “political leader” the emination of Chenresig and Guru Rinpoche… I guess JN la was right about LS being the next incarnation!

  89. ng | May 9th, 2013 | 1:58 pm

    Hey Agu: Send those allegations with strong recent evidences of abuse to Michael Parente, he will add the new info to his blog Friendly Feudalism. I am sorry to hear that new kudras sucked your parents blood and wallet so badly…..they could not suck my blood coz I was not politically exiled. Just a normal Tibetan from Tibet. Solve your problems!

    NG

  90. Tenzing | May 9th, 2013 | 2:45 pm

    I like Prof Eliott Sperling’s article in Tibetan Political review called “Incivilities”.

    NG go read it.

  91. ng | May 9th, 2013 | 2:59 pm

    @TENZIN: It is despicable attitude and morality of exiles….be happy with your brothers and sisters. I have written on an earlier post about fucking morons create fake stories everywhere in get personal legal status, they virtually manipulate all prisoners stories as if they went through it. Then they wait for an opportunity for a photo oops at a rally and present it as they are fighting for the fucking cause they have no clue and no interest. When every thing is legally settled, then this animals are start showing their color. They forgot rallies, they forgot studying history, they forgot to learn their fake Chinese language which they prove to the judges as they are from China Occupied Tibet. I have plenty of examples. TENZIN, enjoy your degeneration of morality, lofty ideals turned into making search opportunities in the West, this time it is from a rather a extremist academicians who cohabit with his wife Jamyang Norbu, the distance is not far between Bloomington and Tennesse. Ask Eliot to publish it in the times, I would be happy to expose all you fucking fugitives and liars……FBI need to recheck and cross examination all the legal papers claimed on Tibetan names.

    NG

  92. Young Punk | May 9th, 2013 | 3:14 pm

    NG you a total nut case with big chip on your shoulder! How sad

  93. T.D | May 9th, 2013 | 3:14 pm

    Agu Tonpa,
    In the presence of Dalai Lama, Ms Lui wore what many western female officials wear usually. What is so big deal about this? In terms of length, I think it wasn’t mini skirt. In a free society, it would be highly inappropriate to dictate others to cover their body inch by inch! We are not muslim.

    About Asahara, Dalai Lama met him without knowing what he is up to.

    Dr. Lobsang Senge went to China just as many Tibetans in exile are going to Tibet. They are not going there to collaborate…

    I don’t have any problem with shugden worshiper. I don’t care much about what they think about their baby diety. But when they collaborate with Chinese, then it is a big problem.

    And sometimes JN looks more like a conspiracy theorist. He doubts everything. He questions everybody. He writes his mind. Calling himself Rangzen Warrior. Sharing his experience in Mustang as a guerrilla fighter.

    Then……….

    What happened to that Rangzen warrior on that mountain top when a Chinese collaborator approached him and took pic with him. Where is his Rangzen spirit? Where is his uncompromising stance?

    Or was he preparing another exit door if something went wrong??????????? I suspect that too….

  94. Tenzing | May 9th, 2013 | 4:33 pm

    @ 93 TD,
    whatver you say doesnt change the fact that CTA made huge blunder in handling the diety issue.I’m not a worhsipper, never was but fact is fact. better to own up.

    Someone said that the Middle Way is the smart way and realistic and so on. I dont think so. It is simply a huge moral shift to Khe-Phen Ta mentality on part of every individual tibetan and the “anythign goes” as long as you are a “yes man” role models and make up strategy as you go along with no consistency policies and so forth.

  95. An Observer | May 9th, 2013 | 5:43 pm

    Once the leadership lets the twin genies of religious and political sectarianism out of their magic lamps it is very difficult to get them to return.

    So many challenges. So many failures. And now coercion and control of NGOs and the media. Desperate stuff. But we can rest easy knowing that at least the hagiography will paint everything as positive.

  96. palden lhamo | May 9th, 2013 | 7:16 pm

    Tibetans are very gullible, vulnerable to manipulation and their leadership is ears deep in coercion, deceit and betrayal. Leadership can anything in the name hh and tubetan brain freezes at the mention of hh. This leadership they says cannot accept that tibet is a part of china historically and mwa is a tactical nessacity. For tibetans photodiplomacy is everything. The leadership muffle voices of their own people much to the deloght of china. Only tibetan have a different meaning of freedom. It isv ruthless to its own people but understanding to china. It is a charade pure and simple. The world leaders make a show of meeting hh and says tibet is part of china. Our leaders are happy meeting with other leader but they not known for standing for truth. Our leaders no say anything when a foreign leaders say tibet is part of china.

  97. Tsering Dolker | May 9th, 2013 | 8:36 pm

    Ngapo is a hero to Tibetan government. Tibetan government wants to collaborate with the Chinese. Tibetan giver wants us all to be Chinese Tibetans. So, why are you people so against Shudgen people if they are doing the exact same thing? Is this actually national selling jealousy I smell? Tibetans are so stupid they can’t even see the obvious stupidity of the whole drama. Rangzen people are against all who wishes to sell our country. We will always be against anybody who does that, whether Umelam or elements of Shugdenites.

  98. Rangzenwalla | May 9th, 2013 | 9:01 pm

    Ling Lhamo Katic dharma injii woman is crazy, she is even attacking Tsering Woeser la on facebook. Another mentally sick person attracted to magic of Tibetan buddhism.

  99. rangzen lama | May 9th, 2013 | 10:59 pm

    dfjkfhk

  100. Tsering Dorjee | May 9th, 2013 | 11:05 pm

    Are we forgetting about the very important issue regarding the attempts to dismantle the very foundation of TYC? Misdirection and slide of hand is very common in magic shows and political games. We must be smart about these things and it would be better for us all to ignore these people forthing at the mouth to pounce on Jamyang Norbu, every chance they get, whether it makes logical sense or not. Extremists like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbauch are usually laughed at in western societies instead of giving any credibility.

    Also, who even noticed the accounting practice in the Exile government and how they always seem to be in the black? Read on this on a wonderful article by Sangye Kunchok. Hopefully this issue is treated with the due impartiality it deserves instead of partisanship. Read on and find out for yourself.

    By Sangye Kunchok (Dharamsala, India) April 30, 2013.

    Have you seen the recently concluded Tibetan Parliament in Exile’s (TPiE) Budget session? It was ended with much confusion and qualms about the future sustainability of the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA). For many years we have been told that CTA’s financial status was weak and debt-ridden prior to Samdhong Rinpoche’s Administration. Then with Rinpoche’s blessing and his controversial privatization of the CTA’s businesses, the financial status has improved into excellent condition. Didn’t we hear that loud and clear?

    Things don’t look as rosy as the previous administration claimed and the numbers started speaking clearly. Thanks to our Chithus (Member of Parliament) especially, “Tsoepak Tsokchung” (Budget Estimation Committee) who have done a great job and whose qualms and questions sparked a great discussion in the parliament. The critical questions and comments by the Chithus brought an unwarranted high-pitched, emotional and disrespectful response from Finance Kalon that brought shame to the Sangay’s administration. The Kalon had to apologize later for his unprofessional behavior.

    I am proud to report here that the quality of our Chithus has improved greatly and their professional response to the Finance Kalon’s rant while not bogging down on their principles were admirable. With the debacle of the previous parliament that brought shame to all of us, Tibetan people seem to have made a conscious effort of choosing the right people to the parliament this time. It is also possible that the live broadcasting of the proceedings and the subsequent distribution to the various cables network via DVDs may have deterred the Chithus from making bad impressions. It may be too early to say this but I believe the 15th TPiE cohort will bring much benefit to the Tibetan people.

    Budget Deficit

    When I first heard of bonus to the employees, I thought we have a surplus budget. But, there was no mention of “Surplus” in the budget. So, we have to assume that it was at least a balanced budget because there was also no mentioned of the deficit budget. During Q&A, Finance Kalon declared, “we never said we had a balanced budget and we never had one,” when Chithus demanded clarity. Yes, we got it. But the question is if the 2013-14 CTA’s budget a balance, surplus, or deficit? Naturally, when there was no clarity, TPiE’s Budget estimation committee will have confusions, doubts, and lots of questions.

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that it was a deficit budget but the manipulation of the numbers have blurred the real situation.

    The shortfall of revenues this year is covered from the various dept.’s long held savings and this has been going on for too long. Almost 90% of the reserved held by various dept were used like this to cover up deficit. This is the savings of the last 40 years prior to privatization, and it’s certainly not due to the ingenuity of Rinpoche or the Sangay’s administration. On the other hand, Kashag boast of having almost Rs. 800 Million in the Corpus Fund, which in reality is way “short of CTA’s 1 year budget that total around Rs. 1,200 Million” rebuttals one of the Chithus. There is good reason to be alarmed. CTA has neither enough rainy day funds nor enough assets that generates cash flow. It’s high time we do the reality check.

    We should be honest in calling this a “deficit budget” even though there is a negative connotation. In the history of Tibetan exile government or CTA, only Tenzin Tethong administration called the shortfall of revenue a Deficit. In other words, he called spade a spade. But in all fairness, we should know that it was not the fault of Sikyong Sangay’s administration but rather his previous administration. Unlike Samdhong Rinpoche’s administration, Sikyong Sangay’s administration runs no businesses and has no assets that generate income when he assumed the CTA leadership.

    But that doesn’t mean he should be employing the same tactic as his previous administration under the direction of the same finance Kalon. The forth coming honesty will keep us on our toes and keep us away from the election gimmick and popularity contest of sort by giving away bonuses. Like one Chithus mentioned, “ if we keep on doing like what we have been doing, the future sustainability of the CTA is questionable.”

    Because of the ambiguity in the proposal as well as current financial strength of the CTA, the Parliament passed a resolution that directs the Audit Dept to audit the financial status of the CTA, which will provide us independent, objective and expert opinion. There was no reason for the Kashag to be that defensive and get emotional unless you know you are letting them open up a can of worms.

    Empty Treasure Chest?

    Sikyong Sangay objected the parliament’s resolution for auditing the CTA financial status on four grounds. He asked the constitutionality of such resolution for which the speaker responded sharply. He also questions the motivation for such resolution for which many Chithus responded seriously and they make their case with solid supporting points. This was just plain embarrassment for the Sikyong who gets lectured on the constitution of the Exile Tibetan Govt- one of the topics of his PhD thesis. The resolution calls for the review of CTA financial status by the Audit dept, an independent agency, to do audit from 2007- present. But Sikyong was of the impression that the Chithus want to “Investigate the Kashag.” He wonders what will the people think of this “investigation.”

    Sikyong’s misunderstanding may be because of his poor understanding of the Tibetan Language, or due to deliberate misinterpretation of his advisors (Kalons). So, because of such objection- some Chithus get confused when it comes to number while others jump to defend the Sikyong in questioning the motives of such resolution. Chithus Sertha Tsultrim charged Speaker Penpa for bringing this resolution to the parliament because of his animosity with the Kashag (the rumor he heard and he really believed in), which was rather naive and disruptive. This Chithus is supposed to be the editor of a Tibetan Newspaper, Boe Ki Bangchen and with such accusation I can only imagine the quality of his editorial.

    Finally, Sikyong requested the parliament to let them (Kashag) do their review first without the help of an Audit Dept. The Chithus happily accepted and withdrew the resolution. After all, what we need is a review of the CTA financial status.

    But, what we, or the Sikyong missed is an opportunity to provide an objective study of the financial status of the CTA by an independent agency. Most of us know that financial status of the CTA went south especially after Samdhong Rinpoche’s infamous privatization of the CTA’s businesses. We all know that Sikyong Sangay has nothing to do with the past Administration. This year he increased the budget-the biggest ever- and raised as he claimed, for the stipends for poor, scholarships to the students, pay to the staff, medical allowances for the sick and BONUS! All of this was commendable.

    But, the budget presentation was intelligent that common people cannot figure out the deficit. This accounting style isn’t that clever and may not be that difficult to understand if we have the access to these papers and if we have few investigative journalist or patriotic Tibetans who do the analysis. This manipulative accounting tactics have been going on for too long and Sikyong Sangay must bring this practice to an end and bring about a fresh start.

    Kalon Tsering Dhondup and Dongchung Ngodup are the two Kalons who objected most strongly to the parliament’s resolution. I understand that they are also part of the previous administration. And I wonder if their job is to defend their past administration or to fulfill the duties of the Sangay’s administration.

    Finally, it is important that we pay attention to the proceedings of the Tibetan parliament. CTA’s financial viability is of great significance and it’s the duty of all patriotic Tibetan to contribute and discuss freely about it. Some in the parliament were hesitant to discuss freely and mentioning word like “Bangzoe Thongpa” (Empty Treasure). I don’t see any reason why we should be worried about such word. If it’s NOT empty, why worry. But, if it IS empty, we should know this and work hard to fill this treasure chest.

    Honesty and transparency is an absolute must. Sikyong Sangay can flaunts his success of budget increases which he does unfailingly, but he must also be honest in the assessment of CTA’s overall financial strength. The increases comes from only one source and we know where it is from.

  101. karma | May 9th, 2013 | 11:13 pm

    You are right HBB that it is a part of our culture where only few can really enter and understand. It is the specialness of Tibet where only culture are there on this planet to compare. In fact a lot of tangible things are shaped by intangible things. Modern materialistic education and development do very little to search or accept its existence but our culture and tradition do. What if we lose contact to this world altogether. As suggested, what we could only do is, be open to it and being responsible member of the society try to understand rather than negating it altogether and bend on destroying it. Tallest civilization is one that understands the forces of invisible things. Only invisible things profoundly shapes visible world not vice-versa.

  102. karma | May 9th, 2013 | 11:42 pm

    99@TDorjee: Lot of facts that only keen observer could only have it. Not only that you have comprehensively put all players into perspective. It was a great tests for our parliamentarians how far can they become constructive opposition wing in a parliament where we have no opposition parties. In this context, the parliamentarians have failed to stand behind their official resolution that includes the direct failure of standing committee who not only failed to convince the session but poorly drafted resolution polarized the house ultimately. Things are not yet over, it will be seen when facts will gradually sink over the next six months (Chitues) when report comes. Your analysis will be useful to educate all. I would suggest you to make little more due diligence and bring this public in more popular mediums so that every one is informed about it.

  103. T.D | May 10th, 2013 | 12:04 am

    Here many people are saying Tibetans are gullible and narrow minded…. and this and that! But I think Tibetans are the most wonderful people on this earth. I am proud of being one of them.

    JN is not God or Buddha. He is a human. He can make mistake. If you people could not accept this, then you people are worshiping JN.

    Doesn’t this look ugly??????

  104. Agu Tonpa | May 10th, 2013 | 1:21 am

    NG and TD:

    WE are same, dude! We hate the old kudrak and kiss the new kudrak on their buds.

    You are right, man— JN is not God or Buddha and he doesn’t even pretend to be one.

    But we consider LS and Samdhong as God or Buddha and they pretend to be one.

    What the heck- We use to love JN because he criticize our enemies. Now we hate JN because he criticize people we love.

    Thats how we reason out, man.

    Aren’t we better?????

    Yours AGU

  105. T.D | May 10th, 2013 | 1:49 am

    It is a lie to say Dr. Lobsang Senge and Samdhong Rinpoche are pretending to be Buddha or God.
    Nobody is acting like that….

    May be it is the jaundice that plagued your sensory organs….

    The least thing I expect in an argument is the simple honesty…..

  106. kelsang | May 10th, 2013 | 2:26 am

    ladies and gentlemen…
    Please do not be so gullible….use your brains and think of it in certain rational way…let us don’t apply the same method that we often adopted as it was to heavily rely upon only the words of few people…..try to have some wisdom and lightening the darkness where we are being deeply involved already….right and wrong can not be absolutely judged by a single individual….

  107. ng | May 10th, 2013 | 2:44 am

    @Agu: I like rational criticism based on facts. I wont appreciate if JN or YOU criticize China if your reason is illogical. I already mentioned the foundation of JN’s rationalization for independence is illogical due to his extrapolation of Ganden Podrang’s Jurisdiction of Tibet onto entire Tibetan plateau.

    I hope I made this clear….I don’t kiss anybodies asses. I know Padma Sambawa had taken Trisong Detsen wife or Queen Yeshi Tsogyal as his consort in the name of Khangdrolma. I think this is unthinkable today, it is raping another’s wife in the name of religion. In short, Sadhus are no good for any purposes. Just imagine, pope is fucking Obama’s wife in the name of God. Shall anybody will buy it? Of course no!

    Hope I made it clear….

    NG

  108. tsepal | May 10th, 2013 | 3:18 am

    why does’t Jamyang Norbu la mentioned the relationship between chinese government and shugden members inside and abroad, why he doesn’t have time to observe this matter but have plenty of time to criticize our government and its ministers.

  109. Tsering Dorjee | May 10th, 2013 | 3:21 am

    Anybody want to talk about the budget deficit issue? I think we should hire outside auditors to provide a sound and impartial assessment of all numbers and follow proper accounting practices.

  110. daveno | May 10th, 2013 | 7:50 am

    @107, I agree. Budget is critical and finances should be sustainable.Deficit is not acceptable,we have no money printing machine.

    I am hoping Chitue would do their due deligence.Lets see how they would perform and if they are half-baked, we must ensure to follow up ,never let this unattended.

    This also gives us an opportunity as a citizen to assess if we are contributing enough, given the inflation and many other factors.

  111. freemind | May 10th, 2013 | 8:14 am

    Heres a scenario i want you to think of:

    think for a few seconds that you just found out that your dearest friend/bf/gf/wife/husband/in law/ is a Shugden practitioner or is from a shugden following family.

    How would you react?

    would you
    end your friendship with that person?
    pretend that your didnt know?
    confront that person and shame him/her?
    would you never talk to that person again?
    would you go and reveal it to your family and other friends?

    “how would you react?” This is the biggest question you have to ask your self to find out what your real thought on the Shugden followers is and a test of your humanity

    here are a few things that I and my family experienced:

    1.Some of our in laws and even relatives never talk to us (some have even refused to step inside our house)
    2.we have to keep this secret forever because we want to live peacefully within Tibetan community
    3.i always fear that one day my friends will find out and they will leave me
    4.whenever the topic about shugden rises i become scared and nervous
    5.friends of our extended family have forced some of our relatives to not contact with us or limit contact with us
    6.there are vrey few people we can trust
    7.we hear peoples real thoughts on shugden practitioners, a few things i myself have heard:
    “these people stomp and sit on HH pictures”
    this was told to my friend by some tibetan who knew about my family, i was so shocked and disgusted as i and my family respect HH even though we may criticize his stand on the Shugden issue, i had to lie to my friend

    “they are bad people, if you know them, dont talk to them, if you know your parents follow, you should not look at them”
    it was told by a teacher at my school infront of the assembly, i was shocked to extent that i directly said infront of my friends who dont know about my connection that that teacher is talking nonsense. He was saying we were to be treated like untouchables.

    “they are bad people”
    this is what every body says, how in the world do you know i am a bad person, am i a bad person because of what i believe in? i have never harmed an insect (intentionally) in my life, who are these people to decide whether i am bad or not.

    “they follow bad god”
    anybody can interpret a god in anyway they want, nobody really know if there are gods, so why are people so obsessed with supposedly bad gods and their followers

    “are you a shugden practitioner?”
    this was said by a person who made connections with some of my facts and directly asked me whether i was a shugden practitioner. How would you feel? if someone came to know you secret and has the audacity to ask right infront of their face this question. the horror,the sadness, the freight, the stress, the tension. again i lied because i didnt want to see that persons reaction if i said yes

    “dont go into that shop, the owner is a Shugden follower”
    this was said to my relative by his friend who didnt know about our connection, how do you expect us to feel when we see such animosity towards our kind.

    now tell me, do you want to live this life of fear and such sadness or would you ever wish this kind of thing to happen to someone else? These are how Shugden followers are treated in our supposedly kind, democratic, Buddhist community. And tell me, Would you lynch or lock me and my family up in prison if something happened to HH because of some crazy shugden followers? Would you report me to the police or Tibetan authority if you found that i am a shugden follower.
    There are only idols and photos of the deity, hidden from normal view, theres nothing more that we do than keep an idol, pray sometimes to it and nothing, nothing else.
    I know there are some paranoid Shugden followers who claim different and impossible lies, some may be violent and some may have contact with PRC, But know that there are many people like us, who simply wish to stay anonymous, invisible, normal but we have to take a stand for our selves when people attach such labels as anti Dalai Lama or traitors of our nation etc because some acts done by crazy followers. Its almost like branding every muslim a terrorist because some of their people are terrorist.

    We are Tibetan, you cannot take away our right to be in a Tibetan community, we are Tibetan, we also want freedom from discrimination, we are Tibetan and we refuse to be forced to change our beliefs, we are Tibetans and we are Buddhists, please practice COMPASSION

  112. Pema T. | May 10th, 2013 | 8:36 am

    Tsering Dolker,

    “TD: were they collaborating with the Chinese before we banished them from our society?”

    You always give the impression that you stood first and then others have their way later on. Now you are talking of banishing the middle way people from the society because of their support towards H.H The Dalai Lama’s proposal. If you think people who support middle way has no right in democratic process, then you as a Rangzenwallas, also falls into the same category. Just because you stand for Rangzen doesn’t make you anything special. It’s the deed, sacrifice and courage which matters in the end. Keep barking if you like.

  113. tttttibet | May 10th, 2013 | 8:58 am

    how to differentiate a bad Tibetan and a good Tibetan according to the the average CTA minded Tibetan

    #shugden follower – bad tibetan
    #people who take pic with
    shugden followers- bad tibetan
    #rangzen people- bad tibetan
    #people who speak their mind- bad tibetan
    #tibetans who have mind- bad tibetan
    #tibetan who support JN- bad tibetan
    #JN- bad tibetan
    #i am- bad tibetan
    *tibetans who listen to H.H – GOOD TIBETAN!

    according to PRC
    every tibetan- bad tibetan

  114. Pema T. | May 10th, 2013 | 10:26 am

    @tttttibet,

    I don’t buy your thoughts. People who have mental problems think in this way. Just because few people like Samdong Rinpoche oppose Rangzenwallas, doesn’t mean whole community support it. The main thing is to serve some contribution to the Tibetan society in whatever capacity you can. Whether you support Rangzen or Middle way doesn’t make much difference to the actual reality. We are all bunch of Refugees squabbling over petty issues of you and me. Tibet need every Tibetan to be united.

  115. RESPECT | May 10th, 2013 | 3:24 pm

    PEMA T., I agree with you.

    I also agree with TTTTTIBET that sometimes this is the reality.

    The Tibetans “living” (if you can call marginalization, poverty, lack of any religious freedom, constant attempts at re-education etc. truly living) DESERVE more than this from the people who they are counting on to speak for them.

    I sincerely hope that they know nothing about all this arguing.
    I think it would make them feel even more hopeless and abandoned.

  116. tsering topgyal | May 10th, 2013 | 6:19 pm

    FREEMIND

    Thank you for your piece.

  117. Jampa | May 10th, 2013 | 8:08 pm

    FREEMIND,

    I felt genuine sorry reading about your situation and the awful things you have been through because of your beliefs but at the same time I can’t understand why can’t you and your family give up practicing Shugden? If not for His Holiness’s but for your own sake.

    The reason His Holiness doesn’t want us to practice Shugden is because he believes it harms our causes with regard to our struggle against China. And even if critics argue it is just HH’s personal choice I would still give up after all he had done to for our cause. As far as I’m concerned (and I think majority of Tibetan people outside as well as inside Tibet feel the same way) I would gladly give up my life if His Holiness asks me to, that’s how much I think of him. In my humble opinion we all owe a lot of gratitude for what he has done for us and giving up practicing Shugden is I think a small sacrifice that you should be willing to make if you really regard Kundun in the way you mentioned in your piece.

    In any case I wish you all the best and may you and your family find peace in your lives.

  118. TENZIN CHOEPHEL | May 10th, 2013 | 11:06 pm

    To,
    Tsering Dorjee
    part i
    i am little surprised over your overreacting and exaggerating comments well as your analog. it is true we all have the right so worship. inter religion relationship is key to have a sustainable and harmony society. so to achieve this goal, HHDL has traveled all over the world and meet with the religious figure who are highly respected. on other hand, before HHDL’s retirement from the political responsibility, he had a great responsibility to meet various people on ground of solving Tibetan problems. JN is creating more problems rather than reuniting the our society. we need writers like Woeser who is writing bravely under the brutal and strict policy of China unlike JN who is writing some critic articles by hiding in a secure place like USA.
    part ii
    you have post an article regarding the CTA ,there is a financial problem in CTA, but it is much better than the TYC. TYC is using a very unstable method to collect the financial. it depends upon the public donation among tibetans. likewise you dont have to worry so much about the critic situation of TYC. there should be change in TYC according to the change of time. at last, people will decide the fate of TYC because TYC is nothing if there is no public support.
    with regard

  119. RESPECT | May 10th, 2013 | 11:31 pm

    I also warmly thank FREEMIND, who provided with me a perspective that made me think.

    Obviously problems between people who care greatly about Tibet weaken the Tibetan cause. I do not think any problems can or should be ignored, because they won’t just disappear. Rather, they should be addressed openly and honestly – and quickly, due to the urgency of the situation in Tibet. I believe in the long-term this would make people more focused and clear-thinking in their pro-Tibet activities.

    I also think people who care about Tibet should diligently study the CCP in order to become more effective in their opposition to it.

  120. lek.ch | May 11th, 2013 | 2:49 am

    Hi…
    For few days i been reading the articles in phayul by JN
    well fact is we all got to think a bit on what he had written cause each and everybody of us got owns right to express ones own views , there is no problem wit tat as livin in democratic govt..
    I do agree wit his views whether its good or bad bt sir plz do write the main reason as we cant jz directly point out wt he(LS. is sayin..
    I respect u ….

  121. བོད་མི། | May 11th, 2013 | 7:05 am

    དེང་སྐབས་དོན་རྒྱལ་བསྟེན་མཁན་རྣམས་ཆོས་ལུགས་ཀྱི་གདོང་ལྤགས་གྱོན་ནས་རྒྱ་ནག་གི་རྒྱུག་ཁྱིའི་བྱ་བ་བྱེད་ཀྱི་ཡོད་། གལ་སྲིད་ཁོང་ཚོས་སོ་སོའི་ཆོས་ལུགས་ཀྱི་རང་དབང་སྤྱད་ནས་སྡོད་ན་ང་ཚོས་ནམ་ཡང་ཁོང་ཚོའི་ཆོས་ལུགས་ཀྱི་རང་དབང་ལ་དོ་ཕོགས་བཟོས་མི་སྲིད་ལ་། ཁོང་ཚོས་ཀྱང་དགའ་ཞིང་སྤྲོ་ཞིང་ངང་གནས་ཐུབ། ཡིན་ནའང་བདེ་ཆེན་སྤྲུལ་སྐུ་ནི་དོལ་རྒྱལ་གྱི་རྗེས་འབྲངས་པ་རྒྱ་གཞུང་གི་རྒྱུག་ཁྱི་ངོ་མ་དེ་རེད། ཁོང་ནི་རྒྱ་ནག་དང་བོད་ནང་དུ་ག་དུས་ཡིན་ནའང་བསྐྱོད་ཐུབ་མཁན་ཞིག་དང། ནིའུ་ཡོག་རྒྱ་ནག་གི་གཞུང་ཚབ་ཁང་གི་གཞུང་ཚབ་ནི་ཁོང་གི་བློས་ཐུབ་ཀྱི་གྲོགས་པོ་ཞིག་ཀྱང་རེད་འདུག ཁོང་རང་རྒྱ་ནག་གཞུང་ཚབ་ཁང་གི་མི་སྣ་ཁག་དང་ཐུག་འཕྲད་བྱེད་པ་ནི་རྒྱུན་ལྡན་ཞིག་རེདའདུག

    ད་ཆ་དོལ་རྒྱལ་རྗེས་འབྲངས་པ་རྣམས་ལ་རྒྱ་ནག་དབུས་གཞུང་ནས་དཔལ་འབྱོར་གྱི་རྒྱབ་སྐྱོང་བྱས་ནས་ཁོང་ཚོས་བྱེས་སུ་ཡོད་པའི་བོད་མའི་སྤྱི་ཚོགས་དཀྲུག་རྒྱུའི་བྱ་བའང་མང་པོ་བརྩམས་ཀྱི་ཡོད། མདོར་ན་། དེང་སྐབས་དོལ་རྒྱལ་རྗེས་འབྲངས་པ་རྣམས་ཆོས་ལུགས་ཀྱི་གདོང་ལྤགས་གྱོན་ནས་རྒྱ་ནག་གི་རྒྱུག་ཁྱི་བྱེད་ཀྱི་ཡོད།

  122. བོད་མི། | May 11th, 2013 | 7:08 am

    གོང་དུ་བྱབ་ཆུང་མང་པོ་ཞིག་གིས་ལོ་རྒྱུས་ཀྱི་རྒྱབ་ལྗོངས་དང་དངོས་ཡོད་ཀྱི་གནས་སྟངས་ཅི་ཡང་མི་ཤེས་པའི་ཐོག་ནས་སེམས་ནས་དྲན་ཚད་ཡི་གེར་འགོད་པ་ནི་ཕྲུ་གུ་ཆུང་ཆུང་གི་བྱ་བ་ཞིག་སྟེ། སོ་སོས་གང་ཞིག་བྲིས་པ་རྣམས་ལ་འགན་འཁུར་དང་རྒྱུ་མཚན་ཡོད་དགོས་པ་ཡིན། དེ་བས་ཁྱེད་ཚོས་ཡང་ནས་ཡང་དུ་དངོས་ཡོད་ཅན་དང་རྒྱུ་མཚན་ཅན་ཞིག་བྲིས་པར་འབད་བརྩོན་བྱེད་ཨ།

  123. T.D | May 11th, 2013 | 7:37 am

    Freemind,

    I am sorry for all the bad things that has been making you feel uncomfortable and may be sometimes insecure.

    Here I want to point out reasons why Tibetans hate Shugden and followers. But this is not a justification for bad things happened to individual people like you.

    1. Shugden encourages people to go against other sects, especially Nyingma school. This caused bitter inter school disharmony in the past. Destruction of other monasteries and statue of Guru Rinpoche. Thanks to His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guidance and effort, inter school animosity is no more exist today. It already became history.

    2. Members of Shugden group are criticizing His Holiness the Dalai Lama and collaborating with Chinese.

    3. They murdered Tsenyi Geshe La and his two disciples in Dharamasala.

    4. In the following year, on the same month, they posted a letter on a wall in Mcleod Ganj which said, “last year we offered some good pieces of meat. This year also we are going to give you even bigger one”. That was direct threat against the Dalai Lama.

    5. In south India, just before the inauguration of assembly hall of Losel Ling Monastery, monks aligned with Shugden group were openly distributing pamphlet denouncing H.H the Dalai lama and declaring Tibet as part of China. That made situation worse and prompted non-Shugden monks to declare total separation with followers of shudgen.

    6. In the name of purity of philosophy and Gelupa school, they discourage and threaten any person taking teachings of other schools, especially Nyingma school.

    I did not made up these stories. I am not asking you to believe them. But I am asking you to investigate those things by yourself.

    Oh yes, within Gulugpa school, the followers of shugden believe this deity is the manifestation of Lord Manjushri. But those who don’t follow believes Shugden is nothing more than a common spirit(lha).

    I think you should make your side of story heard by every Tibetan. There will be all kind responses, but I am sure truth will prevail. Buddha Bless you.

  124. Honey Boo Boo | May 11th, 2013 | 10:51 am

    T.D.
    I agree with you. But things were happening even after in exile in the late 60’s and 70’s. most people’s memory of course doesnt serve them for they may have been the mainstream at that time or they were not yet born or they were simply oblivious. And some of these same people now attack their own shugden who dont want to give up. It really must be confusing .So please best to educate yourself.If that not possible then atleast practise compassion and humanity and have some courage in doing the right thing.
    I think many other groups can also that that they had relatives and friends who distanced themselves out of fear and confusion, not to mention of the taunts and snide comments of clueless mainstream in those days.
    i hope we all take a good lesson from all this. In future if HH or any high ups shows some annoyance or dismisses some individual or group that people dont just to diss them and attack them. HH is after all human and he has right to show his emotions but we shouldnt react in a way that make things worse for him later on. so deal with matters like this in a respectful and tactful manner because we are dealing with human emotions and not robots..that much responsiblity we should shoulder and especially the people in power. use your skills in a good way for our country, our people and of course HHDL and not blame everything on HH.

  125. Rangzenwalla | May 11th, 2013 | 11:24 am

    #118

    You don’t like Jamyang Norbu la because he questions the motives of HHDL and CTA, but you like Tsering Woeser la because you agree with her writings. What if Tsering Woeser la with justification starts to question HHDL and CTA, would you hate her then?

    Tenpa Gashi la has a funny blip on http://www.rangzen.net/
    Jamyang Norbu and the Aliens from Outer Space!

  126. Jingo Tsering | May 12th, 2013 | 1:07 pm

    One of the main slogans of Lobsang Sangay is Unity in Tibetan community. Shugden followers are destroying that unity by collaborating with Communist Chinese. The proof is incessant U-Tube videos of Shugden followers. I am sure they are doing this to get money from Communist China whether they follow Shugden sincerely or not. Then why doesn’t Lobsang Sangay doesn’t say a word against them? even though they are mostly concentrated in the neck of his woods in Massachusetts.May be those are mostly recent arrivals from Lithang which is more important criteria for not raising a finger than his campaign slogan? Also why doesn’t Lobsang Nyandrak doesn’t say a word against those Shugden followers instead of bad mouthing Rangzen adherents? Isn’t this one of his primary responsibility while eating away Tibetan refugees tax money -Gyalthon Manyul in Office of Tibet in New York city. Dechen Tulku is ostensibly one of the main collaborators of Chinese communists so, people don’t bark on JN la instead lynch Dechen Tulku. Know the difference between your mouth and your asshole.

  127. lowlife | May 12th, 2013 | 2:10 pm

    @JN

    “If anyone is under any illusion that Buddhists are inherently nonviolent just look back at the way Buddhist monks instigated the killing of Tamils in Sri Lanka, and more recently the killing of Muslims in Burma”

    Your this statement might land lowlife like us into trouble. Please refrain from such. It doesn’t sound very intellectual, perhaps a little too desperate to prove oneself. Didn’t you know what followed last year as a aftermath of what ever that happen in Burma and Assam with the students from north east and some Tibetans in Bangalore.

  128. The Owl | May 12th, 2013 | 6:19 pm

    “Jamyang Norbu and the Aliens from Outer Space!” HA!

    Hilarious lampoon by Tenpa Gashi, in the best Voltairean tradition, cornholes some of the MW apologists in their pathetic attempts to fabricate a JN/Shugden conspiracy theory.

    JN, you and your bulbous headed alien friends better steer clear of those MW Clingons and their home world Uranus or be prepared to have your brain sucked out of your skull–the better to fit into a society of homogeneous, pea brained delusional drones hardwired to have absolute conviction in the red robed sorcerer’s apprentice who is prophesied to save all sentient beings from samsara and restore balance to the Multiverse.

  129. The Owl | May 12th, 2013 | 10:42 pm

    117 Jampa wrote, “The reason His Holiness doesn’t want us to practice Shugden is because he believes it harms our causes with regard to our struggle against China.”

    The Dalai Lama had also stated that the Dorje Shugden “harms his health.”

    Assuming, for the sake of the argument, that such things are true, that a deity can harm you, then the opposite must also be true, that a deity can help you. And since there are hundreds of these deities, spirits, buddhas, bodhisattvas, divas, dakinis in the service of Tibetan Buddhism, why don’t the Dalai Lama, the lord of all, command handful of these protector spirits,(or even petition them)to harm the Chinese leaders? Oh, I forgot, compassion rules. Ok, so lets go the nonviolent route. Why not have the deities possess few chinese leaders, or even magically, make them think that Tibet is not a part of China?

    One zen adage goes something like, “done is what need be done” . if it were possible to do such a thing, it would have been done, long time ago, but since its all bullsh!t concocted by people like the Dalai Lama, such things can not be done. Yet I fear Tibetans are destined to go on and on for centuries, talking the talk about deities AS IF there is something to talk about.
    Show me the money or shut the #@!% up!

    On another topic, the fabulous psychology of merging the man of Harvard with Gesar of Ling. A happy consilience of fact and fiction.

    Ofcourse it’s all shamelessly made up, yet a part of me sympathizes with the Sikyong, what he is trying to do, giving people what they want.

    The PM, on his facebook promulgating the pretty fiction that he is the emanation of Ling Gesar propped up by the statement that he is the “political successor to His Holiness the Dalai Lama.”

    There seems to be a large segment of the Tibetan population, a population who are willfully turning a blind eye when it comes to clarity, to see thru their own self deceptions. Especially in Tibet and India, these Tibetans are aching for such a leader, based partly on a mythic hero archetype, and partly on reality. Such ideal has always exerted enormous influence on the Tibetan psyche, a fact that has been exploited to the hilt by the likes of the Dalai Lama and ilk for centuries. Lobsang Sangay is also shrew enough to go with the flow.

    I personally found the epic of Gesar boring. What if one of our cultural myths was based on Lord of the Rings instead!?!? Then Lobsang Sangay (or rather, Lobster Stinger, in the high elvish tongue) would probably insinuate that he is a direct descendant of the Edain of Numenor, that he even has Elvish blood coursing thru his veins courtesy of his godmother Luthien Tinuviel. Heir to the throne of Gondor!! Slayer of Glaurung the Great Worm!! Keeper of the Silmarils!! Wielder of Excalibur!!! The Knight who say NI!!! lol

    I am sure, some Tibetans reading this might find all this talk of elves, gods, deities, and demons rather childish. Well, you’re not in the majority….

  130. Agu Tonpa | May 13th, 2013 | 4:09 pm

    Jamyang Norbu Gyal gyur Chik. Ku-Tse Khrilo Tenpar Shok!!!!

    Yours AGU

  131. jang ji | May 14th, 2013 | 11:25 am

    good job all,,,, we are useless, homeless and landless but, we are always very rich in debating ??? or more like presenting our self??

  132. Luktse | May 14th, 2013 | 6:29 pm

    If all the attacks on JN, this one with picture of JN with so called Dechen tulku is one of the cheapest shots I have witnessed. And the people responsible for spreading this image to imply JN’s support of Shugden know full well that the image was taken as explained by JN during camp Hale anniversary along with images of HH.
    This picture of JN with DT is less sinister than the one with His Holiness and Aum Asahara where money did exchange. Asahara made $100, 000 donation to His Holiness/CTA when that picture was taken.
    I believe JN when he says that he had no idea on the identity of the person when he posed for that picture.

  133. neutrality | May 15th, 2013 | 12:16 am

    This Shugdhen controversy should never have happened…a black dot in our history…its only a belief, i sympathize innocent Shugdhen followers, and i urge some of those who are in agressive mood to retaliate for injuries inflicted upon them by so-called pro-HHDL/CTA to please refrain from violence, and soon majority of young, educated Tibetans will be happy to live with just Tibetans, irrespective of religious belief, whether follow this or that oracle, atheist, non-believer, pure race, mixed race…whatever, but peace loving Tibetan….Lets not waste our precious little time, one life, fighting on a matter that none of us really understand well.Dont lose heart, shugdhen followers, I know you are Tibetans, bit shocked and hurt though…
    FreeMind, keep faith, things will be better soon.

  134. Divine Son | May 15th, 2013 | 6:19 am

    I would say Jamyang Norbu posing a picture with Shugden guy is not reasonable to accuse him of supporting Shugden. I am not against the Shugden society and followers and specially outcasting them from Tibetan society is shocking. Anyway those actions are stern reply to intolerable crimes perpetrated by some followers like murdering, beating, threatening and destroying which is clear to many Tibetans.
    But Jamyang Norbu’s a morally degenerated moron who use his writing skills to bullshit youngsters under the banner of Independence he don’t believe and care. Its clear that he tried vainly to promote his cousin during election and criticise His Holiness while drinking coffee in US. If he really care, why can’t he go to India and lead the youths sacrificing his comfortable life and wealth his forefathers accumulate exploiting common Tibetans. He should sell all those estates and give back to rightful Tibetans.

  135. tsering topgyal | May 15th, 2013 | 3:42 pm

    Divine son

    After reading your piece which at best could be described as a crass example of a feeble mind,I thought of you,a person devoid of reasoning,understanding and class.

  136. Jampa | May 16th, 2013 | 8:20 am

    Reply to the appropriately named ‘The Owl’ on 129:
    I can’t help feeling sorry for you although you seem to take an offence to my rather mild reply to ‘Freemind’.
    As someone rightly said little knowledge is dangerous, I urge you to read the clear reasons that His Holiness has given for discouraging us Tibetans not to practice the diety Shugen – http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/his-holiness-advice
    And by the way I like your analogy with elves and lord of the rings, very enlightening…. Peace…..

  137. gone mad | May 16th, 2013 | 10:04 am

    JN, it is very sad for all Tibetans that one of the most influential Tibetan English writer has lost his discerning mental faculties. Once known for his dedication and commitment for Tibet and Tibetan cause has these days become unpaid chinese Tibetan writer fulfilling the works of Gyami.
    Being expressive and bold dont suffice one to be a good political analyst. One need some common sense with which one would know who is friend and foe. JN these days criticising CTA and dd more and china less. It is either his brain has retarded or actually become the china’s mouth piece.

  138. The Owl | May 16th, 2013 | 1:04 pm

    Jampa, I am not offended by whatever fantasies which enrich your life, but I am offended by the Dalai Lama for creating needless controversy over faeries and deities, because such controversies hurt and divide people when there is really no need for it as far as I am concerned.

    Ask yourself, how can the All-Knowing Avalokitesvara and his antecedents, his teachers having worshiped this deity centuries, only to realize now that it was a mistake? Who is to say with any certitude that the next Dalai Lama won’t institute the worship of Shugden again if it suits his fancy, fantasy or politics? Anyone who’s brain isn’t hijacked by the parasite of faith can see how childish and pitiful such ideas are.

    It may seem cool to say, “little knowledge is a dangerous thing.” As if you have some facts about deities which alludes me, then show me some proof. But you and I both know, there will never be any proof for all those colorful assertions imagined within magical Tibetan Buddhism.

    What is really dangerous is blind belief without good evidence, then we become slaves to other people’s delusions, which can easily lead to tragedies. History is filled with such examples.

    Jampa, If the Karmapa’s hat happen to fly by your place today, don’t forget to say Hi.

  139. Tsering | May 16th, 2013 | 10:48 pm

    སདསདསད

  140. Tsering | May 16th, 2013 | 10:53 pm

    ༡༢༡་་་༡༢༢་་བོད་མི།་་་་་དེ་སྔ་མེད་པ་ཁོ་མཚོ་རྒྱ་ནག་ཁ་ལོག་དགོས་གང་ནས་བྱུང་བ་རེད་དམ།་་ཁྱོད་རང་བྱབ་ཆུང་ཆེ་ཤོས་དེ་རེད།་་ཁྱེད་ལྟ་བུའི་བྱབ་ཆུང་ཚོས་གནས་སྟངས་འདི་བཟོས་པ་རེད།་་་ད་ནས་བཟུང་ནང་ཁུལ་བསྐྲུགས་ཤིང་མ་གནང་ན་ཡག་གི་རེད།

  141. Democracy | May 17th, 2013 | 9:21 pm

    we always say we are lucky to be offered democracy by HH. But in reality any form of ideas that differ from HH or the CTA is always silenced by saying chinese spy or shugden supporter.Just because he took a picture with somebody who practiced shugden, JN is labeled shugden supporter. So very narrow minded and stupid. Just because JN la, refuses to give up his belief in Rangzen and critises CTA, he is targeted and attacked in a very cheap way. Its time to wake up. we are not in Tibet in 18 century.

  142. ? | May 18th, 2013 | 6:31 pm

    Let me understand this. 12 lac Tibetans lost their lives to Chinese occupation in 1959 becoz china took our country and our right and freedom to practice our religion. That is mahayana Buddhism and not to forget Bon. And within Buddhism the four different sects and protectors of the dharma which is in the 1000.s. We became refugees in a democratic country with a billion people who follow different gods and goddesses and deities and different religions altogether where each believes their own gods and goddesses and for the most part we,re ok. We talk about freedom and free Tibet as free people outside Tibet as citizens of different countries with all the rights and freedom of free citizens of the world giving false hope to the real Tibetans in Tibet when the truth is the whole world has never supported a free Tibet. We act as if Tibet back before 1959 was beautiful and free when the truth is so far from it. India under Nehru made it clear in 1960 about their stance. America and CIA abused and misused the guerillas and chushi gangdruk back then for a decade when they made it clear that their main goal was never to free Tibet but to be a nuisance. Even the name chushi gangdruk was adopted later to take the blame away from Dikpa shung so that china leaves the kudraks alone and blame it on the Khampa guerillas led by Andru gompo tashi. Those true and last freedom fighters gave their lives for our freedom and to protect the dharma. It has already been proven that time and again that his holiness was able to escape to India because of chushi gangdruk. But this info is always hidden that the scary deity was the main sungma of the guerillas and who actually did tell HH to leave. Now, peeps gonna state they don’t believe in oracle and bullshit then with that statement our whole Tibetan Buddhism becomes bullshit because our main govt believes in sungmas and nechung is one and so does every sect for that matter. And everything from guru padmasambava cause ours is after all also known as tantric Buddhism. We always state in this day and age why believe in this spirit and that spirit. Sadly the true Buddha was from the Hinayana tradition which is drastically different from what we tibetans have known since we knew about buddhism. I m not a religious person but this basic info can be wikipediaed. Now coming back I believe at the end of it all Buddha himself said that do not go by what I say check it out and see if it makes sense and then follow it. So if a guy wants to follow shiva or Parvati or Jesus or HH or shugden or Jack Tom or dick then I think it’s his personal faith that he believes helps him out so who are we to judge that. History has always shown that when u condone someone’s beliefs it leads to problems that’s why even our democracy and the US constitution realized it at the beginning of the country’s birth and made it an absolute amendment. The right to religion. A person should be judged by his character not by his faith. Faith is for selfish reasons for the person alone. Character for everyone else. Y judge act as if we all are enlightened ones and judge others faith. U gotta understand this simple philosophy. If u give shit then expect shit back. We call the shugden worshippers chinese spies when our govt wants to be a part of them. Shugden worshippers for the most part are hard working Tibetans who belong to gelug sect and I don’t see y it concerns other sects. They chose shugden over HH and we should be ok with it. As Buddha himself said. Now there are always a few who misuses and abuse it for their personal gain wether its non shugden or Shugden worshippers. Coz following something does not make u a good or bad person its the character of the person and we need to understand that. We might be Buddhist by birth but we are not all Buddhas. Calling shugden worshippers Chinese spies is like calling all Rangzen fighters killers of the 100 in Tibet. This whole freedom also brings out the fact tht what exactly do we want for our children and our bros ans sis in Tibet. 100 + lives have been lost but there is no support from any country for freedom of Tibet. Thousands outside Tibet shout and cry and do bhook hartal because the countries they Are in are free and as a free citizen of that country u can do it without much problemo. But wat abt in tibet where our laal Bhais just make it worse for the true fighters who have this false feeling that the world is listening. So is that a real solution. It’s something to think about. Who in this world would not want to be free and have his own land that he can call his own, but in today’s day and age and with these religious probs is it even gonna be worth the trouble to be a free country where your Bhai Bandhu calls your brothers a gadhar becoz they believe in something different that others don’t and be judged on that grounds. I think these probs we re facing now should be addressed before we talk about freedom becoz we don’t want another achhyut caste in Tibet. Do we? And I don’t think this is a small problem. It is a thing that has been going on since Ganden phodrang was established 350 somethiing years ago when the geluk came into power and is pretty much as old as the sect. And not to forget when Tibet was actually free. So y this change now when we don’t even have a country, first the Kongo probs, then chushi gangdruk stuff, the Taiwan pho, the karmapa reincarnation probs, the rangzen middle way probs, shugden issue and many more. Unity comes thru diversity and accepting it not by condoning it. When are we gonna think abt young ones and making them leaders in the new countries and in tibet so that we don’t need to beg for our country. They can just shake hands and cup of tea and solve probs and give rights and sign on laws that we petition for thru our hundreds of slogans shouting screaming and hunger strikes and self immolations(the saddest of em all). that’s wat is important our present and our future ones.

  143. Banarasi Babu | May 19th, 2013 | 7:17 am

    Dear Mr. Question Mark @ 142

    Your teacher/parents did a great disservice to you, when s/he didn’t teach you to write in paragraphs.

    Your writing is like a sleep talking. I for one couldn’t make any sense.
    What is the point of writing, when no one can make any sense out of it. May be good to vent your anger.

    I hear VOA and RFA are filled with people like you who say one thing in the beginning and say just the opposite in the end.

  144. Nima Phuntsok | May 19th, 2013 | 4:05 pm

    Religion is poison.
    It is good Tibetans don’t have a country – imagine if they had one – what would they have done.
    They would witch hunt, fight, hurt and kill others in the name of religion.
    So enjoy little infighting outside Tibet – ostracise, ban, and deflect attention to other human issues that affect your larger life – so that we can pull down each other when someone goes up in life or does something good for the community. Enjoy your life in exile because even the Dalai Lama has given up hopes of freedom.

  145. ng | May 19th, 2013 | 8:57 pm

    India for the first time banned Tibetan protest against Chinese premier Li Ke Chang. What did happen to our rangzen wallas? Enjoying your opium and in the 7th heaven?

    Tibetans denied permission to protest as Premier Li lands in India

    Phayul[Sunday, May 19, 2013 23:50]

    Indian policemen detain a lone Tibetan protestor staging a protest against Chinese Premier Li Keqiang outside the Chinese embassy, in New Delhi, India on May 19, 2013.(Photo/Associated Press/Tsering Topgyal).
    Indian policemen detain a lone Tibetan protestor staging a protest against Chinese Premier Li Keqiang outside the Chinese embassy, in New Delhi, India on May 19, 2013.(Photo/Associated Press/Tsering Topgyal).
    DHARAMSHALA, May 19: In the run up to Chinese Premier Li Keqiang’s maiden visit to India, security presence around Tibetan residential areas in New Delhi has been drastically increased and local authorities have rejected a request for public protest by Tibetan NGOs.

    The Tibetan Youth Hostel in Rohini, where a large number of Tibetan college students reside, has been slapped a notice by the Delhi Police stating that the hostel will remain shut during Li’s stay in the capital. The popular Tibetan residential area of Aruna Nagar is also under a heavy security presence, where sleuths are reportedly on the look out for local Tibetan activists.

    Moreover, local authorities have rejected a request for a public protest against Li’s visit at Jantar Mantar by Tibetan NGOs. Initially, the request by the regional chapters of the Tibetan youth, women’s, and students’ groups was accepted but local authorities, at the eleventh hour, had a change of mind.

    China’s second-ranked leader, soon after landing in the Indian capital for a three-day visit (May 19-21) met with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Sunday afternoon.

    Li’s visit comes in the wake of the recent border stand-off between India and China. On April 15, Chinese troops had set up camp nearly 10km inside Indian territory in the Depsang valley in eastern Ladakh and refused to vacate despite hectic military and diplomatic negotiations. The 20-day border stand-off finally ended on May 5 with China moving back to its initial position.

    According to reports, PM Singh, during his meeting with Li, raised India’s boundary concerns in a “firm, upfront and constructive” manner and said it is essential to maintain peace and tranquility at the border.

    Dr Singh, according to government sources, said that without maintaining peace at the border, the relationship between the two countries will suffer.

    It is also being reported that China, meanwhile, raised the Tibet issue. India responded by saying that the Dalai Lama is “a respected spiritual and religious leader and Tibetans are not allowed to conduct any political activity.”

    The two leaders will hold delegation-level talks on Monday during which India is likely to propose an exchange of maps on the contested western and eastern sectors across the LAC. According to government sources, the Indian side will “proactively” raise the importance of greater information-sharing on trans-border rivers such as the Brahmaputra-Yarlung Tsangpo, and hope China, as an upper riparian state, will fulfil its responsibilities.

    On Tuesday, Li will travel to Mumbai accompanied by a business delegation comprising more than 100 executives from some of China’s biggest companies.

    Bilateral trade between India and China went down to $66.5 billion in 2012 from $74 billion in 2011, a setback to the targeted goal of reaching $100 billion by 2015. According to Chinese figures, India also faces an increasing trade deficit with China that totaled $29 billion in 2012.

  146. tashi tsering | May 21st, 2013 | 12:01 am

    i am really confused why jamnor is comparing Shugden with Sunnis and Shias in Iraq or Pakistan, or Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland and also neglecting the murderous act these dirty group has carried till now in exile. do you still think there is any sort of religion in them? you feel remorse and pain when others prick you but we all need to learn others feel the same.

  147. tashi tsering | May 21st, 2013 | 12:47 am

    སྨོལ་ལམ་ལོག་པའི་རྒྱལ་བའི་བསྟན་པ་ལ་
    འཁུ་བའི་ནག་ཕྱོགས་གཟུགས་ཅན་གཟུགས་མེད་སྡེ་
    བསམ་སྦྱོད་ངན་པས་འཇུག་པ་མ་ལུས་པ་
    ཕྱོགས་གསུམ་བདེན་པས་རྩད་ནས་གཅོད་རྒྱུར་ཅིག

  148. རིག་པའི་བུ | May 29th, 2013 | 3:02 am

    ཆོས་ལུགས་ཀྱི་རྙིང་པ་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་གོང་གི་དམོད་ཚིག་འདི་ཅི་ལྟར་འདོན་ཡང་ནུས་བ་མེད། ཡོད་ན། བོད་ས་ཤོར་དགོས་དོན་མེད། ཤུགས་ལྡན་ཚོགས་པ་དང་མཛའ་གྲོགས་སྒྲིག་རྒྱུ་ནི་བོད་ཀྱི་མ་འོངས་བའི་ཁེ་ཕན་གྱི་རྩ་བ་ཡིན། རྒྱུ་མཚན་ནི། རྒྱ་དང་ལག་འབྲེལ་བྱེད་མཁན་དོལ་རྒྱལ་བསྟན་མཁན་གྱི་་གྲས་ནས་ཡོད་ཅིང་མི་བསྟན་མཁན་གྱི་་གྲས་ནས་ཀྱང་ཡོད། འོན་ཀྱང་། བོད་ཀྱི་སྤྱི་ཚོགས་གཏོར་སླད་ཤུགས་ལྡན་ཚོགས་པར་རྒྱ་ནག་གིས་ཆེད་མངགས་ཀྱིས་འབྲེལ་བ་བྱེད་ཀྱིན་ཡོད་པས་དེ་ལ་ཁ་གཏད་གཅོད་སྟངས་ཡག་ཤོས་ནི་ཤུགས་ལྡན་ཚོགས་པར་ཁ་གཏད་གཅོད་རྒྱུ་མ་ཡིན་པ་མཛའ་མཐུན་སྒྲིག་རྒྱུ་དེ་རེད། རྒྱུ་མཚན་ང་ཚོ་ཚང་མ་བོད་པ་ཡིན་པས་སྤ་ཕྱི་མ་གཏོགས་ཚེ་སྲོག་གཅིག་པ་ཡིན་པས་ཡིན། ནང་འཛིང་བྱེད་ན་གཞན་གྱི་འདོད་ཐོག་གི་རྟ་རེད།

  149. རིག་པའི་བུ | May 29th, 2013 | 3:59 am

    I am really admired with JB. He is so special and high educated person I have even neven seen Tibetan society. He is hero of nation. It is very sad that most commenters are religious followers who got brain washed from TCV. It is so sad that they love religion even though they don’t know anything about it. They love Lamas even though Lamas use them as toys due to they got brain wash since child. They don’t know how much they are religious extremism. Those religious extremism caused lost our nation. Now they are showing their on nature on the web.

  150. Karze | June 1st, 2013 | 12:22 pm

    Tibetan history is full of religious intrigues for last 1100 years. The first misstep was assassination of Tibetan monarch Lang Dharma.

    For last several hundred years various sect have courted and invited Chinese, Mongols to usurp power from the rival group. Tibetan are still so irrational to be driven by sectarian views. No wonder Chinese are taking full advantage of wedge as result of Shugden controversy.

    Even a small kingdom like Nepal and Bhutan have maintained their independence yet Tibet has been constantly under the influence of Chinese or Mongols after Lang Dharma.

  151. Rangzen | June 10th, 2013 | 9:44 pm

    To those “Rangzen” fighters:

    You have possessed “Rangzen”in your Mouths all the time and now is the time to possess it in your hands through your bold actions! I am glad to see the courage of those who Want “Rangzen.” You have expressed so much resentments and ill feelings towards the Dalai Lama! You all tend to place every possible excuse on the Dai lama!

    However, the Dalai Lama has not curbed you all at cells! I would be happy to see you taking concrete actions to gain “Rangzen”. Go ahead and get it. If you are all men and get the gut as you talk! You all sound that as if someone desperately stops
    you from heading the Rangzen path! Trust me, no one will stop you if you get the gut to do so!
    To gain Rangzen, First you may need some training camps which JN la might provide you at his home near countryside Musical hall! Then you need to obtain some weapons! And you may need to collude with some terrorists in Afghanistan or Pakistan where many of them have made their training camps. By doing so, you have taken the first and foremost step toward “Rangzen.”

  152. Tenpel | September 5th, 2013 | 5:09 am

    IMO, the problem is deeply rooted in Tibetan society, and has much to do with pride, clinging to groups and identity to be better than other groups, to be more supreme than other traditions or men etc. Shugden practice has been bound to Gelug supremacy and sectarianism. In that sense it has in its nature a sectarian aspect. (This is also what most of the Western research says.)

    The question is how the Tibetan society deals with it. To prohibit the practice doesn’t help too much, to give too much space to it is not helpful either for the harmony in Tibetan society because the underlying sectarian / elitist thoughts spread with the practice and have a strong divisive aspect. (I know this from own experience as someone who practised Shugden for many years and who knows the Shugden followers’ point of view very well. The Nyingma for instance that feel attacked by Shugden refused to work in a democratic elected government in exile as long as there are Shugden practitioners because their practice, they feel, harms them. Also Kagyue masters and practitioners see this practice as being harmful. For details see this (IMO) rather fair summery: http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html#The_political_dimension)

    The pro-Chinese and Anti-Dalai Lama stance of a leading Shugden figure, Mahalama Losbang Yechi (polemically known as “Nga Lama” and self-proclaimed known as “His Holiness 13th Kundeling Rinpoche Tagtsha Jetung Rinpoche” in France 24 TV: “I approve the Chinese presence in Tibet. What we are living with the Dalai Lama today shows how authoritarian his theocratic regime must have been in the past. It was much more violent than what Tibetans are living today under Chinese rule.” is not helpful either.

    I would not hesitate to say that all in all the Shugden practice has a fanatic aspect, and IMO this fanatic aspect (clinging, and aggression) led to the triple murder of Shugden opponent Gen Lobsang Gyatso (director of the School of Dialectics, Dharamsala) and two of his students as well as the vicious plan of students of Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche (which was heard and announced by he himself) who planned to murder Trijang Ch. Rinpoche’s assistant Tashi and then to put the blame onto the TGIE. Trijang Rp. says:

    “This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness’s government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang. With my own ears I heard this person discussing on the telephone a plan to assassinate Tharchin. It is really a matter of great sadness and surprise, especially since the person involved in this ploy has been very close to me as well. If he succeeds in his plan, it would be a cause of great trouble for the Labrang, as well as a cause of disgrace to the Tibetan government and His Holiness the Dalai Lama. These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know. That is why I made this statement.”

    These things are neither mentioned by Al Jazeera nor by France 24 TV nor any other broadcast that reports rather biased and one-sidedly the view of Shugden supporters. These TV documentaries also don’t mention that Shugden practitioners have well functioning own monasteries in India and Tibet (China), and what trouble Shugden practitioners made in the three main Gelug monastic seats as long as there was a loose “live and let live approach”, nor that the Dalai Lama stressed that people can practice it privately.

    However, all in all, it is for sure a sad situation, which invokes fanaticism at both sides of the conflict, and I would not know either how to handle it.

    The topic is utterly mixed with ego-clinging, pride, sectarianism, elitism and aggression; and for sure it has a strong divisive aspect. A society must find a way how to set boundaries and how to deal with cohesion of the society’s harming influences. This is not necessarily an easy task for any society as the prohibition of the head cloth (the wearing of the hijab) for Muslim women for instance in Germany, Turkey or France shows. Also modern democratic societies have to think about religious symbols or practices that are contrary to the society’s aims, and how to deal with it. And some ‘modern Western societies’ apply prohibitions. It is a huge challenge with no easy answers.

    I wish the Tibetan a wise and common sense based approach that helps in the long run.

  153. dawa | September 5th, 2013 | 10:52 am

    Thank you Tenpel for the link about Shugden. It was a very interesting read and I found out a lot more about the whole affair. For example I was not aware of the opposition by prominent Shugden devotees to the non-sectarian (Rime)values advocated by His Holiness and the other inclusive teachers of various sects.

    From this paper I realized why the CTA is against the worship of Shugden and I sympathize with CTA who has to take into account the well being of followers of different sects and faiths in our society. But I still have problem with how the Tibetan leaders go about it. You cannot demand people to forego their belief in a day.

    CTA and His Holiness should show the same level of patience and compassion to the Shugden people that they show to Chinese invaders, if not more. After all they are our own people who are in a very painful and difficult situation. Some of those high lamas who advocate shugden worship do sound like fanatics and egomaniacs but that doesn’t mean the rest of the followers are like them. Most people are ordinary people. They may worship Shugden for generations but they may also consider His Holiness like a Buddha which many Tibetans do. So to ask them to stop attending His Holiness’s teaching if they want to follow what their ancestors had been worshipping must be very frightening and confusing.

    And frankly it sounds very disingenuous to an ordinary person when you say worshiping Shugden harms the health of His Holiness. This sort of lame excuse does not help at all. Religious and spiritual belief of a person is deep-seated and complex that you cannot just command or advise it away.

    I was also unaware of the practise of entrusting your life-force (sog) to the deity by those Shugden worshipping lamas. Personally, this level of submission is repulsive. But again the way our leaders and and some of their volunteer foot soldiers are going about it is small minded and very unkind and uncompassionate.

    I disagree with one of the reasonings of 100th Gaden Tripa which said “The Mahayana teachings advocate an altruistic attitude of sacrificing few for the sake of many.” Sacrifice when carried out on one’s own initiative is sacrifice but when compelled by others it becomes persecution. In a modern secular world sacrificing few for the sake of many will not fly. Otherwise USA, UK, Australia will be ruled according to the wishes of the white majority. Slavery will be reestablished and the Tibetans will have to give up all their rights to make 1 billion Chinese happy.

  154. BHOD_RANGZEN | September 5th, 2013 | 4:24 pm

    IMO,
    HH is too strong spiritually and mentally to be
    harmed by the spirit. Having attained a certain level of consciousness spiritually someone like HH can combat the negative energy of an unwanted spirit.That is my opinion. Now, i’m worried about the ordinary people.If they have given themselves to the spirit and now want to give up the worship but at athe same time they are apprehensive and fearful than they could be harmed by the spirit.Spirits are just like humans but without a body.They are like bullies of today who only bully the weak so if you build up your strength in terms of spirituality/ energy wise,i think you will be fine. Because the spirit does have some special powers due to their nature of their existence and
    depending on their knowledge and power generated during their human life and their srong tendencies. But one thing we humans have is our
    discretionary power which they do not have.That
    is why it is urged that we hone our tendiencies into the RIGHT PATH when you are in this body while you still have the discretionary power and cultivate a clear conscious and a noble heart. no i’m not saying you have to be religious and be perfect. that SOMETIMES is an obstacle. If you get too engrossed into spirit good/ bad, you are getting diverted from the path of true realization. but since we are constantly faced with that,at least have true knowledge about the nature of it all and then have an unbiased/detached and compassionate attitude towards it and carry on with your spirituality and other activities. just my opinion, take it or leave it.

  155. Tenpel | September 5th, 2013 | 5:01 pm

    Thank you Dawa.

    Happy to hear that you found it helpful. I mainly edited this article in Wikipedia before in April 2008 New Kadampa Tradition editors took over the article and deleted massively academic sources and distorted the article’s content in order to have a version suited to their own Anti-Dalai Lama propaganda via Western Shugden Society …

    For sure a lot of patience is needed.
    In general, most often intolerance and conflicts are more present towards the own family members than to people not included in one’s family because people tend towards to expect far more from close relatives and less from foreigners … this seems to be a common human pattern.

    With respect to that Shugden is harming the health of the Dalai Lama: the Shugden lamas themselves taught their students (and these teachings were transmitted by Trijang Rinpoche and written down by Zimey Rinpoche) that Shugden violently punishes those who even touch Nyingma scriptures. The teachings by Shugden lamas of how Shugden even kills those who practise teachings from other Tibetan Buddhist traditions was written down in the Yellow Book: http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2008/10/01/sectarian-rivalry-the-yellow-book-by-zimey-rinpoche/

    When the Dalai Lama installed Nyingma rituals for the TGIE this Yellow Book was released and the target of Shugden’s wrath was clearly indicated to be the Dalai Lama himself. (It is another matter if Shugden can or cannot harm the Dalai Lama.) So there is some reason behind it – though these are rather ‘religious reasons’.

  156. Tenpel | September 5th, 2013 | 5:45 pm

    Just with respect to the reliability of Al Jazeera. They say e.g.:

    “Across the world 4 million Buddhist Tibetans worship this particular deity. The ban has created tension and dissent amongst the one million Tibetans living in India …”

    Guess from whom Al Jazeera learned this? Did they verify such claims?

    Such claims were told to me in the past by Shugden practitioners but researchers call such claims “exaggerations”, and I think for anybody with common sense this is obviously a fact …

    Then if Al Jazeera fails already in the basics, I wonder how reliable their other material is? When I was in the press team of Shugden proponents campaign in 1996/98 the press was misinformed by us (I forwarded the wrong information given to me by my Shugden lamas). The press often failed totally to question these claims because they were carried away by their greed for a sensationalist story. I think it is the same with Al Jazeera.

  157. Karze | September 5th, 2013 | 6:38 pm

    @156 There are not even 4 million Geluk let alone Dolgyal Tibetan follower. This is grossly inaccurate number given by Shugden follower.

  158. The Owl | September 6th, 2013 | 7:14 pm

    Some Tibetans, with authoritative pretensions, dripping with moral certitude, beautifully blending fact and fiction, will every now and then, condescend to eulogize to the rest of us, that the monk-created faerie, Dorjee Shugden, has enough Tinkerbell like powers to hurt the health of the all powerful God-King!

    Others try to assure us that His Holiness was never in any real danger from evil psychic forces since its sooooooo obvious that the Dalai Lama has attained the highest level of puissant spiritual consciousness to render himself nearly invincible.
    When are we going to grow up and crawl out of this rot?

    People who talk like this, they don’t need a country, they need to seal themselves shut in some cave, asylum, or in a monastery cell and never come out in the light of 21st century day.

    Shugden controversy was a black eye moment for all Tibetans when the Media exposed it to the world. Such a needless controversy, old monks with old ideas fighting over imaginary companions but not contend with that, dragging us all in, the whole Tibetan People thru the gutter of superstition and obscurantism.

    Hopefully, we can moved on, and from the looks of it, we have. The news is that Tibetan Buddhism will be going all Sciencey!

    Some of our writers even make grandiose claims that scientists around the world are waiting with baited breath, better yet, salivating with the thrilling prospect of Tibetan Buddhism greatly advancing the sciences, even ushering in paradigm shifts in the realms of cognitive neuroscience, ethics and morality, all thanks to Tibetan Buddhism. How exciting then, when a Tibetan monk, (who I most times consider way over rated in the wisdom dept.) win a nobel prize in the sciences!!!!!!

    Why is it that Tibetan religious controversies tend to become Tibetan political concerns? Oh right.. “Democracy with Tibetan characteristics.”

  159. Steve Rogers (a voice from England) | December 18th, 2014 | 5:35 pm

    The thing that makes me sad about this whole business is I don’t see anyone talking like a Buddhist about trying to take care of people, calm their fears and such. I spend a LOT of my life just being peaceful and helpful and I expect most of you do too. Working and doing housework and entertaining kids and so on. Why should it matter what people believe and how they pray, it only matters what they do to you. Dorje Shugden is one of the deities I learned from Geshe Kelsang, supporting other more central practices which are the core of my life. I’m not a cultist, I’m a meditator.

    I also don’t see why you can’t look on the Dalai Lama as a human being who can make mistakes without losing your faith and love for him. Many of you seem to feel he has made a mistake but are scared to come out and say it because you have to be so conformist. If I were you I would work hard to make Tibetans give each other more space and more support and stop arguing about other people’s private religious practice. But you would have to take that first step of saying yes, HH was completely wrong in this or that matter, let’s tell him, and stop this scary personality cult where everything he does is supposed to be perfect. It’s not fair on him as a human being and it makes frightened slaves out of everyone else.

    Oh and there is NO Chinese money anywhere in the NKT. It really is just a lie. Nobody in NKT is sold to politics like that, they just want to meditate and try to protect Tibetans who practice Shugden, because we know it’s just a meditation and there was no big problem until the Dalai Lama made it into one. I also don’t believe the people who killed Ven Lobsang Gyatso were Shugden people. There’s no motive – the DS Society of Delhi wanted to debate with him. You can’t debate with a dead person.

    I wish you success with your independence. People should all have the government they want and China’s is so harsh and not good enough for human beings to grow in. It needs to evolve and give real freedom.

  160. karze | December 19th, 2014 | 10:29 am

    @159 Steve: The Dalai Lama is as human as Trijang or Papongkhapa. Why Shugden followers are so worked up over mythical spirit. One follower even dismissed historical Buddha for the sake of Trijang. Doesn’t that prove that its a cult.

  161. gyalpot | December 19th, 2014 | 10:36 am

    Response to Steve Rogers:
    Based on the many participants on this blog site, I am of an opinion that native commenters are first Tibetans and Buddhist second. Therefore do not be disappointed if we all do not exhibit Buddha-nature in all our discussions. This site as I understand it is to discuss Tibet’s physical and political status and not a religious sounding board.
    “Why should it matter what people believe and how they pray…” (DS) – In this regard there are 2 points to discuss.
    1. If the worship of DS with the help of Tibet’s enemies interferes with the future of Tibet, its struggle for existence then all Tibetans have a right to comment.
    2. If the worship of DS as you claim is a personal right, by all means you have right to all the privileges as religious follower to follow whomever you wish, without interference and without your worship interfering with anyone else’s.
    But if you point an accusing finger at HHDL and call him a “Liar” and of interfering and disparaging DS followers; call for demonstrations in front of the press, DS followers have crossed the line by attacking Tibet. HHDL is Tibet’s religious leader and therefore mandated to protect, correct and secure Tibet’s religious and moral compass. He has on many occasions clearly and emphatically stated that the practice of DS worship should be a personal choice but if you work or are involved in any Tibetan government then the practice should be discontinued or the worshipper should leave to pursue DS worship privately.
    Therefore, the choice that HHDL offers is sounds reasonable under the circumstance. I personally do not follow any particular Buddhist order and regard religion as a personal practice and would like to see religion interfere less in the physical realm, yet I still see the importance of religion in our current situation as the binding force to keep us grounded in these trying times.

  162. Namkhah | December 19th, 2014 | 9:46 pm

    Steve Rogers: No Chinese money anywhere in the NKT?
    Perhaps you can explain the 40 return air tickets to Rome plus accommodations paid for by ISC. Perhaps you went as well, you wrote to Repubblica. Here is a link to the pdf booking form for free tickets:
    http://info-buddhism.com/PDF/Prebooking%20advice%20Rome%20demos%20-%20International%20Shugden%20Community.pdf
    Perhaps the full financial statement for NKT’s political activities will be published, you might be wise to not endanger the cult’s tax-free status by engaging in politics.

    To date, ISC radicals have been photographed in the Chinese Embassy, and with PRC government officials at least three times. This evidence can be seen on Kelsangs Worldwide Google+ page. No one does not believe these traitors like Ah Dar Tsering flying around the planet are not on the payroll, so don’t be stupid.

  163. Don't Dirty the Dharma | December 20th, 2014 | 3:58 pm

    Although I am not a Dharma fanatic from either camp I am a Tibetan. I want all Tibetans to get along with each other. Steve Rogers has a point that we should not criticize other group’s religious beliefs if they are doing us no harm. What is patriot to one group is terrorist to another. What is god to one group may be a demon to another. But in this interconnected world we live it is wrong to say that my god is god and your god is demon.
    If Tibetan leaders and the mindless followers did not attack Shugden I don’t think Shugden people would have thought of demonstrating against H. H. the Dalai Lama.
    The fact that this English gentleman expressed his support for freedom for Tibetan should make you pause and reflect. It is much more than what most other people are doing for Tibet right now. If you are Tibetan first and Buddhist next, it is all the more reason not to participate in this religious fecal matter flinging game. If you are Buddhist be a Buddhist. If you are Tibetan first, work for the well being of Tibetans and not indulge in attacking PERCEIVED threats. After all didn’t some famous Buddhist teacher say that gods are not enlightened enough and might be jealous of each other. It is wrong to believe the words of one god against another. Leave the gods and their fights in gods’ realm and let us get along with each other on this earth.

  164. TENPA | December 20th, 2014 | 11:34 pm

    Steve rogers,

    Since this issue is turning out to be a never ending debate and getting nowhere allow me to put it bluntly like this:
    Whereas an enlightened being shines light on both you and your enemy irrespective of your prayers a sectarian spirit will obey your command.
    So be careful what you wish for
    Cause you just might get it
    And if you get it then you just might not know
    What to do with it, coz it might just
    Come back on you ten-fold

  165. RICCOLA | December 21st, 2014 | 6:19 pm

    Steve wrote: “But you would have to take that first step of saying yes, HH was completely wrong in this or that matter”

    I have read a lot on this blog about how readers should not have blind faith in any one or any ‘thing’ – but study any issue at hand. Well guess what that is precisely what the Dalai Lama has engaged in GRADUALLY over the years.

    Does it occur to you that your Geshela is the conformist or dogmatist?
    You should know by now that this CONTROVERSY has spanned more than a century. Only now do we have to deal openly with the not so nice aspects of our history.

    Steve wrote: ‘’let’s tell him, and stop this scary personality cult where everything he does is supposed to be perfect”.

    Another guess what – that’s what the Dalai Lama has been advising against.

    No need to be PURITANS. He is showing the difference between taking refuge in an enlightened deity and a worldly one. Jealousy resulting in being punitive being one of the worldly emotions. I guess your teacher never let you on this. Your center is forbidden to read books read even by other current Gelugpa teachers.

  166. ? | December 21st, 2014 | 10:10 pm

    What aspect of religious freedom are we failing to comprehend. Looking at the back and forth i guess HH is going to have to deal with the protestors for the rest of his life. Racism is obviously apparent. Prejudice with power to separate and boycott based on class color caste religion ( especially within a religion). There is a big difference between an opinion, advise and a ban. Ie I don’t want to eat Indian food because I don’t like Indians is a stereotype and prejudice on my part but I own a restaurant and will not serve to Indian people because I don’t like them changes everything. Both are wrong but.. U all tell me since everyone on this page comment on religion as if they are all Buddhas and enlightened beings. Let’s first be civilized and a human being and understand the meaning of democracy. Respect the religious rights of all people cause when u give shit don’t expect roses in return.

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