I may be getting paranoid but it seems to me that in most academic discussions and scholarly forums on Tibet, these days, a conscious effort is being made all round to avoid mentioning the word “rangzen”. Sometimes, of course, it happens that the term just has to be used and there is no judicious way of sidestepping it. Fallout appears to be contained, in such a contingency, by the use of a qualifier like “controversial”; which allows for the implication that China’s claim to Tibet (no matter how intellectually outrageous) is, in this instance, being regarded as having equal merit as the historical truth of Tibet’s sovereign status before 1950.
So when an eminent academic as Professor Elliot Sperling of Indiana University, makes liberal uses the problematic “R” word (without any qualifiers) throughout his address at a Tibetan Studies conference in Delhi I thought it noteworthy enough to reproduce on this site. His Holiness the Dalai Lama also graced this event. It is encouraging to hear that a considerable number of Tibetan students from Delhi University and the SOS Youth Hostel attended this conference. JN
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ADDRESS BY PROFESSOR ELLIOT SPERLING AT THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON EXPLORING TIBET’S HISTORY AND CULTURE IN DELHI 19-21 NOVEMBER 2009.
Your Holiness, Prof. Suneja, Prof. Ngawang Samten, Prof. Pental, Respected Colleagues and Guests
There are many topics that we have covered over the last three days. The geographical reach of Tibet’s interactions with near neighbors and far neighbors that we have discussed has been considerable; the subjects which this group has discussed are equally amazing, especially for a nation long considered isolated and a culture that is termed (and it’s a term to which some even in the exile Tibetan leadership don’t object) an ethnic rather than a national culture.
I I won’t go into a summary or list of the papers heard in the history section of the conference, but I would like to make some general observations about them as a whole. Over the course of this conference we have seen and heard presentations and papers that cover the expanse of the Tibetan cultural world most obviously Indo-Tibetan interactions and ties beyond the Himalayas—including, of course, Sikkim as well as Ladakh and the other Himalayan areas across the Tibetan border. Tibet’s historical relations with China—not simply political but also social and economic—have been discussed very profitably here. Some papers have examined Tibet’s place in the larger world of 19th and 20th century power politics, while a number of papers have underlined Tibet’s role in the history of Mongolia and the Mongols, from the time of Sečen Qubilai right through the conclusion of the Tibeto-Mongol Treaty. Indeed, the number of papers that have cast light on an array of intimate links, religious and political, that created a space we might term the Tibeto-Mongol world of the 17th-18th centuries and beyond is striking. But it doesn’t stop there, for that world also had a niche for the Manchu rulers who established the Qing Empire.
We have heard new findings and new interpretations that have made of this conference a wonderful example of all that is typical of Tibetan Studies today. In the History Section we have had contributions on history as it relates to politics, the interaction of religion and politics, bureaucracy, archeology and more. How to weigh the value of all this? Well we’ve also had a distinguished paper on Tibetan weights and measures.
In all this, the expanding world of accessible Tibetan sources has been shown to be crucial. The expression of Tibetans in the past and today, committed to books and paper or declared orally is the core of what we do. Without the ability to work in Tibetan there is no serious Tibetan Studies. This was grasped in India even before the time of Sarat Chandra Das and it remains true today. This seminar has made it obvious. I would like to therefore congratulate our hosts, the University of Delhi and the Central University of Tibetan Studies for bringing this out via our conference.
As the range of work in the History Section also demonstrates, Tibetan Studies is not simply Buddhist Studies. This is not to denigrate the study of Buddhism or its place in what we do. But one doesn’t need to be a Buddhologist to be drawn passionately to Tibetan Studies. Tibet and Tibetans have evolved traditions in the sciences, the arts and in scholarship that are approachable in the way that those of other nations and peoples are approachable, as we have seen here.
I am gratified to see young Tibetans here, either as students, observers, or staff. Most of what I have to say from this point on is really directed at you. All that I’ve said about Tibetan scholarship and the necessity of grasping Tibetan sources relates to your heritage. Passionate as non-Tibetan scholars might be about Tibetan Studies, this is not our patrimony. It is yours: you can embrace the legacy that great Tibetan scholars and historians have committed to books—in Tibetan—and by reading them let them speak directly to you and tell you things about Tibet that you won’t get from the ready-made English-language materials that come out of the Tibet-support movement. It is for your generation to grasp the wealth of your inheritance or to let it rot. Tibet is assuredly a nation; Tibetans are assuredly a people. They are situated among other nations and peoples and have interacted with them as nations and peoples do. Tibet is not some “world soul,” save for those who have the leisure to fantasize along such lines
The modern question of Tibet looms over what we have done here. That’s a fact of life. Speaking from the standpoint of the History Section, I cannot but note that one—and not only one—of the battlegrounds of the Tibet Issue is history. Most recently in China, since 2008, we have seen the circulation of a revised interpretation of Tibet’s status: no longer a part of China since the Mongol era, Tibet has now been part of China “since human activity began,” and the imperial dynasty of the Lha btsan-po is now a Chinese Dynasty, coexisting within China next to the Tang as the Liao and Jin Dynasties coexisted in China next to the Song.
I try to deal with facts: there are not just narratives, there are facts, though dealing with and understanding them is work that is without end. And so a few people here have come to me and asked that I speak here about Rangzen. Well do I—and I speak now for myself and not for anyone else in this room—think that Tibet was historically independent of China? Of course; I’m well on record about that. Do I think that therefore the current situation of Tibetan subjugation to China is an insult to that history? The answer is the same. Moreover I perceive that the path that Tibet’s exile authorities have laid out as practical and realistic is now exposed as impractical and unrealistic. And so I’ve been asked to speak for Rangzen. Me? What about you, especially those of you who sit alongside authority. It is for you to speak, inside and outside the councils of power, with no difference between what’s in the heart and what’s on the tongue—and not simply to say lags legs-so to this bureaucrat and skyabs-su-mchi to that lama. Or worse: to think, “gather all these scholars, have them say things that directly or indirectly support Rangzen so as to cynically say ‘look at how conciliatory, practical and realistic we are, rendering irrelevant what scholars have shown to be the case.’” I certainly object to my work being used as a bargaining chip by those inclined to do so. Here or elsewhere.
There’s a seamless web of sems-shugs here and it goes back to my remarks about the need for you to grasp that rich legacy that lies between the countless covers of countless dpe-cha that will speak to you directly, across centuries if you’ll open them. Your cultural legacy and your national legacy are for you to pick up or to let go. If it’s the latter, then at least please don’t lament anyone else’s lack of support for Tibet.
I would like at this point to say a few words of thanks. There are too many people on staff for me to thank individually—their work has been spectacular and they’ve taken excellent care of us. And there will be a vote of thanks upon which I don’t want to intrude. But I’d like to mention Profs. Deepak Pental and Ngawang Samten of the University of Delhi and the Central University of Tibetan Studies respectively, for the cooperative venture that produced this stimulating and productive conference. We are all in your debt for this marvelous gathering. And I feel a need to thank the person who became the public “e-mail face” of the conference, Dolma. And finally an old friend of many of us, Prof. Jampa Samten, who in addition to his duties and research in Sarnath, took on so much of the work of the conference. It was a pleasure to be welcomed to Delhi by Jampa and I hope he feels his work was successful. I certainly do.
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(The remarks that follow were delivered by Elliot Sperling as a scheduled “delegation observation” at the concluding session of the recent conference “Exploring Tibet’s History and Culture,” held at the University of Delhi. They were presented on the afternoon of November 21, 2009 before an audience that included conference participants and a number of observers; on the dais at the time were His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Prof. Deepak Pental of the University of Delhi and Prof. Ngawang Samten of the Central University of Tibetan Studies (Sarnath). Since these comments subsequently became a subject of discussion in and of themselves they are presented here in full.)
Most recently in China, since 2008, we have seen the circulation of a revised interpretation of Tibet’s status: no longer a part of China since the Mongol era, Tibet has now been part of China “since human activity began,” and the imperial dynasty of the Lha btsan-po is now a Chinese Dynasty, coexisting within China next to the Tang as the Liao and Jin Dynasties coexisted in China next to the Song.
Unbelievable that this is still going on, and that China seems to be getting bolder in its rewriting of history rather than more reserved. Having groups such as the Dalai Lama center rewriting history at whim certainly doesn’t help things any. The uphill climb continues…..
Today Denmark has recognized China’s claim over Tibet, last year it was England. President Obama still shuns the Dalai Lama. I keep getting fundraising appeals from the International Campaign for Tibet, Tibet House, and more. But it begins to seem to me that Tibetans are at a crossroads, and unless the struggle for freedom accelerates, it might expire. The strategy of depending on world leaders isn’t working. A new strategy is needed, grassroots action, like that used against South Africa in the 90s. It brought down the apartheid regime. It can bring down the Communist Party of China. Their weak spot is China’s dependence on foreign exports for its economic growth. I have blogged about this at http://www.FreeingTibet.com and everywhere else that I am able. Where is the will to win?
We are our worst enemy when it comes to our national struggle. How are we supposed to fight for rangzen when there is a group that willingly forsakes it for a whimsical fantasy in some sort of “we are so new age and progressive that we are giving up our nation” and making it so easy for all the weasel politicians to get off so easy on the Tibet issue and to add to the insult we end up making excuses for them. What kind of a bizarre bs world are we living in where we are so afraid of creating a bad image that we are even afraid to ask for something that is so basic and undeniably ours. One young man asked me, quite seriously, if Tibet would be able to sustain itself if we should break away from China? It was such an incredulous question I was actually dumbfounded. That is what TGIE brand of logic does for the young brains where they think it is actually beneficial and moreover necessary to be under China. That is the height of delusion curtesy of Dhasa. Sometimes, you just want to say FUCK this and just dissappear but then there are so many brave tibetans in Tibet who never waver in their courage and determination who deserve so much more. People like Drapche 14 nuns, truly inspirational people, and beings with steel like determination who never backed down even after daily torture and inhumanity. There are some things in life that you cannot compromise on. One of them is love and that includes love for your own country and no amount of psuedo logic and new age mumbo jumbo is going to change that.
Jamyangla, thank you for this timely post. It is indeed unfortunate that at a time when our fellow countrymen, who are under Chinese rule, are unafraid to voice their desire for ‘Rangzen’ — fully aware of the risk they are posing to their own lives as well as to those of their loved ones — we, in exile, who enjoy all the freedoms of a free nation, are afraid to publicly say what our hearts truly desire. Yet that is the sad irony of our lives and choices, and we don’t stop to ask ourselves why we must settle for less than what we deserve, or worse still, why must we be guarded in our choice of words when we know it is Rangzen that should be ours by birthright. Still, the truth is that most ordinary Tibetan exiles have no choice but to remain fearful of saying something that is politically incorrect, lest they offend the whos-whos in Dharamsala. Ultimately, it is for the ones that are free of Dharamsala’s grasp/reach or maybe even for that rare breed of brave Tibetans of whom such outspokenness is warranted.
A few days ago I had the great opportunity to meet Rebyia Kadeer the leader of the Uighurs of East Turkestan. I was deeply impressed by her strong personality and courage. On the world press she is often depicted together with the Dalai Lama as pursuing the same kind of middle way approach in relation with the Chinese regime. But then I noticed that instead of autonomy she very often talked about the right of self-determination for the Uighurs. So since I had the chance I publicly asked her what did she meant with that term. If she ment that in the near future the Uighurs should be free to choose if being part of China, Independent or if, why not?, they would like to shape a new country with Uzbekisthan. I was deeply impressed by the concise clarity of her response: ” Yes! Of course- she said- and as the Uighurs in the next future should be free to choose their destiny so should be the Tibetans!”
I find unfortunately that the statements of the officials of the TGIE or even of His Holiness
most of the times don’t share the same clarity and determination.
John
Actually the story about England’s supposed formal declaration, conceding so-called Chinese sovereignty over Tibet, has its origins in the writing of Robert Barnet an individual with a long record of misrepresentation on Tibet. More details here:
http://tibettruth.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/britain-has-not-changed-its-policy-on-tibets-status/
Tenpa
BRAVO!
By the way I totally agree with mr John Roberts on the urgent need of a change in teh campaign.
Manfred
Absolutely!
I am confident we have lot of support among Tibetans in exile. It is time to organize this support and do something. let us organize a conference in Dhasa around March 10 and call upon supporters from all over the world to show up.
One of the objective of this conference should be to chose and field Rangzen Candidates for Chithue under the present system. If they are elected we will have voice within the Parliament to raise ‘party-system’ debate. ‘Rangzen’ without any debate should be the only goal of the TGIE.
When I look back at last year’s special meeting, I can’t help but feel we lost a major opportunity. Nevertheless, its never late.
My New Webpage.
http://tibetannation.ning.com/
Dear readers
I know some of you may agree what’s been said here in this conference but as Tibetan I myself don’t believe Rangzen and I will never raise this topical again. I have few reasons to believe why I believe that we all should follow Middle way and try to get us back to home as soon as possible.
I know Rangzen is wonderful that is full package we wanted and we should have but we also have to look other side of deterioration all aspects of life in Tibet and it pushes Tibetans in Tibet to the edge to layout their lives under Chinese guns.
We all heard and said” protect Tibet or stop tortured in Tibet” but one thing we have to realize that our brothers and sisters suffer so much because of our unreachable goal Rangzen. To protect Tibet first thing we need to know what is Tibet who makes Tibet alive, those people in Tibet so our first priority is to protect Tibetans in Tibet. One of the reasons that I don’t believe sacrifice more life will benefit to get Rangzen.
Since China took over Tibet we all talked about Rangzen and we all worked toward Rangzen….. what we got?
What government officially said Tibet was Rangzen? Who stood up in front on China’s leaders said Tibet should be Free? How many times our government policy changes on the path of our freedom struggles. How many times Tibetan delegates changes the way they talk and proposed to China’s leaders. It was so disappoint and discouraged pretty much everyone expecting some thing good news.
Every time when delegates came back from China, Chinese government’s criticize HH and Tibetans in Tibet suffered imaginably but they are people still keeping push send wrong signal in Tibet calling for Rangzen.
We all know we are save and have total package of freedom and human rights out side the country but we should think twice before push somebody else to the edge. There are people out there maybe say Oh it is their choice but people in Tibet always trust on us and they do whatever we say thus we should think twice before you keep saying R word.
Our enemy is the worst enemy on the world, check the reality how China becoming powerful in the world. How much rest of the world depend on China. Most importantly think about situation on going right in Tibet.
Therefore all brothers and sisters we should know that R word is not our choice right now at this point.
Thanks
Tsewi Gapshi la,
We don’t have enemy within our community unless you think “either you are with us or with enemy”. There are different opinions which seem contradictory but ultimately both sides are working onto something that can be achieved in the circumstance we are in.
I think Prof. Sperling’s lecture should strike some cords in every Tibetans especially Rangzen walas of what they can sing about Rangzen, ask ourselves what do we know about Rangzen except some Free Tibet slogans.
Choni,
Freedom is a something not all will muster their lives for. It is not just a dream to struggle for, it is how you live your own life.
Human beings do walk upright. And it is their right not to be forced to cower. If this means violent revolution, so be it. What is more violent is the daily oppression and the ultimate extinction of a people by colonialism if it is allowed to run its course..
Think of the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Or of the Jewish partisans throughout eastern Europe during WWII, which is arguably the darkest, most bleak period in their history, They stood up. And are an example Tibetans inside Tibet could perhaps draw upon for strength and inspiration.
Your brothers and sisters in Tibet do not suffer because of RANGZEN. They suffer because they have been colonized by China. They suffer because they are Tibetan. Their very existence offends Chinese people. Should they simply slit their wrists and lay down for China in the interests of peace?
Point blank, to hell with peace if it means slavery. The greatest weapon of the fascists is their tolerance of pacifists.
You seem to be confused about your country and its place…as well as your birthright, which, as a human being, is freedom. For your people and nation. You said you think R word is not your choice. Why do you feel it has been taken away?
Turn your fear of China into power. There is great energy in fear as long as you own up to the fact that you are afraid. Yet, being afraid is not an effing excuse to cower. And I am not sorry to say that.
Freedom/Rangzen is the only way for a future to be possible. For Tibet and for other nations too.
Choni,
All this talk of stereotyping and discrimination against sarjorwa is total bs. there was some negative stereotyping by older people before that sarjowa youth were not polite and fighting and drininkin. But I think TGIE and exile people have done their best. Many schools and other factilites have been set up just for sarjorwa. These day if you are a ningjorwa, it is not possible to get your kid into TCV unless you pay full fees, while any sarjorwa kid from Tibet is admitted without question. Which I think is A okay. All youth sarjowrwa from Amdo also get extra stipend from private office. So no talk of discrimination Okay. I think Choni might have raised sarjor non-issue just to attack JN. Since I don’t think there is any attackable thing in this article, and Choni is someone who doesnt belive in Rangzen and against Rangzen supporters.
The point is we don’t liked to be called Sarjor or Sarjorwas,because it carries prejudices against us and it is offensive to us.
It is your choice whether you respect our feelings or not.
I think Choni is right. I don’t like to be called SARJor anf SARJOrwa. who the hell like people disrespect on someone.
there are people who born in free country never ever tasted what is life in Tibet and BS on Tibetan from Tibet.
@Hugh
Totally!
Hi Hugn.
You said “Freedom is a something not all will muster their lives for“ I think our Freedom is more then mustered and will muster in the future if keep this way. You also said that” It is not just a dream to struggle for, it is how you live your own life” I think you are still in asleeping and You need awake. We all dreamt few decades and everything is getting worse and worse every year because of Rangzen. If that is not for Rangzen then what is fuck hell we are fighting for and lost almost 2 million lives? You tell me…?
You don’t have to tell me how human being walk up or down. I saw human being before you did. Nobody force nobody here. I am thousand times clear then you what is daily oppression and colonialism and people’s daily experience under that Red China force and control. Don’t tell me you know better then I do. When you were in mother womb I was in college.
You picked WW II compare to China- Tibet situation. It is so laughable and It shows me so clear that you maybe hear Tibet but I have never seen Tibet and you have no clue what is Tibet look like now. I am not saying Tibetan brothers and sisters will not strength or inspire each other to pursue Tibet. My concern is that I don’t want see lose so many lives for Rangzen because we already lost too much.
“Your brothers and sisters in Tibet do not suffer because of RANGZEN. They suffer because they have been colonized by China“ you said.
My family is not in India, America or Canada like you family enjoying life and BS on everything they see and they heard. Since 1959 My grand father, my two uncles, one brother all died in Chinese prison because of Rangzen. My brother is currently in Chinese jail because of last year March rose up. They suffering not because they are Tibetan but because they fought for Rangzen. “Their very existence offends Chinese people“ you said. You so wrong and you still need go back to school read some more book about China- Tibet.You still don’t know who we fight with. We are not fighting our freedom with Chinese people but you are fighting with Chinese government or communist party. That is where is problem came from. You clearly need to know that as well.
I know fascists and Tolerance more than you do. Fascists isn’t just tolerance but skillful means and wisdom to face or pursue their goal. I think you misunderstand what is real fascists means.
“You seem to be confused about your country and its place…as well as your birthright, which, as a human being, is freedom“. I have to tell you this I have never been confusing and I will never confuse to hear things you BS here. You don‘t know what confusion we are talking about here. Some people want follow HH ‘s middle path and try to get back to home to protect the real home and not BS out side but some people want full Rangzen and there are people like you just BS and have not idea what you talking about. That is confusion. “ Why do you feel it has been taken away?” you wrote. Ask your Daddy and Mammy that question if still don’t know who took away our Freedom but I can’t do any thing for your confusion.
“Turn your fear of China into power” you wrote. You are so right, because you are still in dream you didn’t know how much you sacrificed already and how much fears we had because of Sarjor’s power and hard work Tibet still today recognizable and barely alive.
“Freedom/Rangzen is the only way for a future to be possible. For Tibet and for other nations too” you wrote.
I am happy that we have people like you BS outside country with no fear. Say whatever you want say but I guess people like you will never get no where. Only BS. You concern for other nation is so laughable and my teeth are almost fall off.
Once again
As Sarjor. I have family and brothers and sisters and relatives under Chinese guns. More importantly for the sake of both people and culture, I love to go with middle way. I believe middle path in the only way to solve China-Tibet problems.
Rangzen is no longer choice.
I am totally agree with Choni.
there are people simply don’t know what they are taklking about and they have never seen Tibet. Only talk and talk never get sold result.
People dying almost every month and arresting across the country and tortured like hell being. these are Sarjor’s brothers and sisters.
People should respect those suffered so much.
I am certainly not like be called Sarjor and I know why people call us Sarjor. there is no need explianation.
Choni,
Neither is Middle Path a choice.
It has never been a choice. We just wanted to delude ourselves into believing that if we opted for less, China will be nicer to us.
If Rangzen is a dream, so is Middle Path.
If so, why not dream the bigger of the two?
We must have the courage to aim for the highest-Rangzen.
TCL
Hi Pasang
First of all you should know who is BS right here. I think probably you don’t know what BS really means. Let me explain to you BS means called Sarjor and look down on those suffered so much under red Chinese occupation. That is BS.
You talk about sarjorwa youth were not polite and fighting and drinking. You are so wrong. I was Delhi and Dharamsala few years ago. I saw only heard Shechawa fought with local India driver messed up everything. I heard Shechawas have been using Restaurants, shops and hotels are belong to Government for themselves and never return to where those belong to. I saw Shechawa was doing drug. But I have never ever see in my life a Sarjorwa do drug. Those are not counted as polite. Why?
Open you eyes read one more time what I wrote. I have never said that TG did bad job. If you not dream.wake up think twice before BS with your ignorance.
Did I say schools open only for Shechawa? Read carefully if you need go to bath room take rest.
You said school only open and set up for Sarjorwa. You are so wrong and I think you should ask you parents if school only open for Sarjorws or not. If you don’t know I understand that but you have ask people who knows beter then you do. Don’t blandly say something out there that is BS.
“ These day if you are a ningjorwa, it is not possible to get your kid into TCV unless you pay full fees” you wrote. That is because government did their best for Shechawa almost 4 decades. Ask your parents and brother and relatives, who paid ful fee. I don’t think so. You already forgot what government did for your parents and family and saying not Ningjorwa’s kid in school. That is totally BS.
Do you want Sarjorwa pay full fee? Is that you wanted? Most of the kids have not parents or some body in family got in jail or problems from Chinese authority. Do you still want these kids pay full fee. Shame on you.
I have not reason to attack JN. I like to read all his articles and sometime I agree and some time I disagree. I have right to say what I wanted to say. That is why I don’t like people called me Sarjor.I clearly know what is connotation behind call Sarjor. It is matter of respect brothers and sisters from Tibet. We all know people from Tibet don’t like to be called Sarjor.
Once again. I am Sarjor and I want go back to Tibet as soon as possible. I don’t want to be some where out side country to years and years.
I believe HH’s middle path and I don’t believe Rangzen. Therefore, I am not afraid to say that Rangzen is no longer our choice.
Hugh, why do you think it is o.k to tell Choni what he should believe in? Who do you think should represent the aspirations of the people of Tibet? You? Foreigners? the exile Tibetans that live in USA, Canada, UK and so on outside of Tibet? or Tibetans in Tibet? Like Choni pointed out, it is fine for you lot outside of Tibet to fight for Rangzen but you don’t give a shit about the consequence for the people inside Tibet. I am with Choni-thank god you are outside of Tibet and not in there carrying on with this BS! Some people are not happy to lose their life, how do you feel about Choni losing so many family members due to Rangzen support? Hugh, when are you heading off to Tibet to kill Chinese people in the name of Rangzen-if that is what you believe in? Choni is not confused about his county Hugh, and he is not confused about who and what the problem is either. I have taken Choni’s words from above to reinforce what he is trying to get into some people’s thick skulls: “They suffering not because they are Tibetan but because they fought for Rangzen. “Their very existence offends Chinese people“ you (Hugh) said. You so wrong and you still need go back to school read some more book about China- Tibet.You still don’t know who we fight with. We are not fighting our freedom with Chinese people but you are fighting with Chinese government or communist party.” Choni Tsultrim Gyatso is a realist, he sounds like a proud Tibetan man who stands by his people, his country, his beliefs and his words.
As demonstrated during the uprisings of 2008 the resistance to Chinese occupation is being ‘fought’ inside Tibet, and the objectives of the Tibetan people are clear, to regain independence for their country. The suffering in Tibet, inflicted by a foreign power, is an attempt to eradicate Tibetan national identity.
History records that peoples resist such oppression, often against overwhelming odds, and in-so-doing face the most appalling violence. Look at the French Resistance to Nazi occupation, the stand made by Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, or the incredible story fo Stalingrad. While it could be argued that the suffering of those cases may (or may not) have been alleviated by capitulating to the forces of tyranny, there’s some element of human nature which when facing suppression rises up to resist. Tibetans are no different, and it is of course, the right of Tibetans inside Tibet to determine the course and nature of their struggle.
However well intentioned the motives of those who counsel passive acceptance of Chinese rule, on the grounds it may result in less suffering, we should acknowledge the reality inside Tibet, and recognize that Tibetans, by their resistance, have made the most courageous of choices.
This fact is avoided by the implication that supporting that struggle is inherently unrealistic or somehow self-serving. That fallacious position however is is rather like propopsing that those outside Apartheid South Africa should not have organized a boycott, or expressed solidarity with those inside that country who resisted.
Hugh stands in clear support of Tibetan freedom and independence, in that context he is acting in harmony with Tibetans inside Tibet, who no doubt would be greatly encouraged to note such support. One wonders of course what they would make of those voices which urge them to surrender to Chinese domination?
Hello Jodie
Thanks so much for understand our feelings and I appreciated your support and encouragement.
As New arrival from Tibet with very limited English I tried my best to represent New arrivals those who has no voice. We hate S word but people in Tibetan communities used and still using S word on us.
Somebody once again commented on my respond saying that S word is merely means New arrival. Who ever is that has not idea or clue how we have been experiencing calling name.
It is easy for people say some thing thoughtlessly but never care about our conditions of separation from family, with no place to go and nobody to trust additional worries about family members in jail and depression.
Again somebody called Hugh and Pasang accusing me and telling me How I should believe. I really think these people still need to grow up and open eye little widely to see the world and specially situations on going in Tibet.
I had so many times of conversation with people in Tibet how they feel under China’s brutally treatment. I am not saying 100% of people agree on my opinion or personal estimation. But there are people totally agree that Middle path is the best way to salve China-Tibet issue and most importantly people in Tibet want HH return to Tibet to protect them from China’s inhumanly, merciless arresting, jail, imprisonment and fear in daily life. They believe HH’s return will make huge different on every where.
Thus, I believe one of the way to protect Tibet from vanish her existence is to go with middle path. try to come up some sort of compromise with Chinese leader so that HH can return Tibet for above reasons.
Freedom is not a gift!
It has a price
A heavy one at that
Currency of life and blood
No guarantee for result
No regrets either
To free ourselves
And future generations
Whose freedom we have no right to deny
Whose destiny we have no right to determine
Whose dignity we have no right to play with
Association is no achievement!
It has a price too
Fate of the native American
Overwhelmed by 300 million strangers
In his own homeland
In every spheres of life
Reservations, paychecks and museums
His life centers around
To fight
Or not to fight
Both demand heavy prices
Which price you pay
Is your choice
A reflection of your character
A price for action
Or a price for non action
Non action is no non-violence
Action is not violent either
A price for national independence
Fight!
Or a price for ethnic autonomy
Appease eternally!
Neither is free
No one is imposing
Just your choice
In exile or in Tibet
Independence or association
Both are difficult
Neither is easier than the other
Make no mistakes!
Both has to come from China
Whose interest lies
In its goal
The only goal in Tibet
Is to wipe us out
As a people
And as a nation
What path you choose to go
Is just your right
In exile or Tibet
No imposition
Just persuasion
O! my brother!
In exile or in Tibet
Just your right
No more, no less!
Just my right
No more, no less!
In exile or in Tibet
Choni, may I ask if you are happy to declare that you are an ethnic minority of communist China? Would you have no objection in affirming that Tibet is not a distinct nation, and has always been part of China? Moreover would you accept that you are not Tibetan but Chinese, and that you welcome its rule across Tibet?
Please think carefully before replying, as these are the demands and consequences which would result in the TGIE surrendering Tibtan nationhood in exchange for so-called genuine autonomy.
Should you be able to agree to those questions you would be endorsing the extermination of a seperate Tibetan identity. Tibet would be no more, a story in a book of legends, becoming enitirely Chinese, with Tibetans a tourist curio in their own land.
Of course coming from Tibet you will be aware that as long as you follow Chinese dictates and avoid anything remotely political or human rights-based then life can be tolerable. This is known as the illusion of slavery, like the bird in a golden cage. It would be perhaps too unkind to speculate if perhaps you care so little about Tibet as a nation, or for Tibetan identity, that you would be willing to submit to China as your gaoler. So I would hope you too would applaud the fact that thankfully there are countless numbers of courageous Tibetan in Tibet who do not share such defeatism, and are willing to resist and strive for Tibet’s rightful independence.
Hi Jeff Bowe (fake name?)
I was so disappointing that you have no idea what Tibetans go through everyday. It is so clear that obviously have never seen Tibet accept picture some dessert land that in exile kids book. You question stunned me that you didn’t understand what I actually mean in my comments. I truly think Government waste some much many kept you in school that is so sure.
Nobody is wanted to be within China or part of China. History told us Millions time that Tibet was not part of China therefore especially I myself don’t want be under Chinese rule with no drop of hope and light, thus Jeff you listen carefully I have never made an declaration I or Tibet is going to be an ethnic minority in China and I never will.
I was so wandering why you have never read any history books. You are still today confused whether Tibet was a distinct nation, and had relation with China and more important I think you have no idea how Tibet is geographically neighborhood with China.
Do ask me whether Tibet will be part of China in the future ask Samdhung Lama, ministers in exile and HH. Those are the high rank leaders who made decision stay with China with name of full Autonomy. I did say that but I see there are so me benefit to do that and will allow us to go back to home sooner if we are lucky.
I know you don’t want go back to Tibet but I do.
You talked about “endorsing the extermination of a separate Tibetan identity. Tibet would be no more, a story in a book of legends”
Well I am so happy that someone like you worry so much outside peacefully with no danger of life threat. No family members in Chinese jail and it is so easy for you to say that some body is exterminating nation’s identity and gustily throw some words on some body experiencing so much pain because of family situation in Tibet. And you telling me that Tibetans in Tibet have good life because they follow Chinese dictatorship and avoiding nation’s benefit. That is the point that I really can’t tolerate some have no idea what has been situation in Tibet and how much people have been suffering and accusing Tibetans in Tibet follow Chinese rule for their own benefit. What’s hell world you came from and what grass you have eating while Tibet news are news papers on all over the world. You also said “life can be tolerable in Tibet”. what is fuck hell you doing outside Tibet and why didn’t you go back to Tibet if life is tolerable there. You don’t know what situation you are right and BS about illusion of slavery. You are slavery right now. I pretty much sure that you got job to clean some body’s hotel and bathroom in USA because I met few people after collage came US cleaning hotel and wash bed sheets everyday. I am 100% sure that you are one of them.
You also wrote “ perhaps you care so little about Tibet as a nation, or for Tibetan identity, thankfully there are countless numbers of courageous Tibetan in Tibet who do not share such defeatism, and are willing to resist and strive for Tibet’s rightful independence”
Look Jeff. This is a disgust disease in Tibetan communities when somebody say something out of sincerity how they believe and what is the reciprocal way to approach our free struggle. Immediately throw stone on somebody head or beat up because of deference believe. I think honestly there are huge discrepancy between old and young, in Tibet and out side Tibet, educated and uneducated. And specially you and me. That is the area we all focus and needs to work on. But rather then work on them accusing saying: you sold Tibet, or you are Chinese spy or even you are Sarjor knows nothing.
One last thing. You gave an analogy of “golden cage”.
1) I was depressed to see such a poor analogy say Tibetan and Golden cage. Tibetans suffered because Chinese destroyed our golden cage if we have that golden cage then why you and me chat about our differences.
2)You maybe think you are outside that cage what ever you mean. You are so wrong. I recommend you that put your both hands on your chest think about where you are now. A refugee like homeless dog with no country to go. That is what probably you mean by golden cage.
Once again. I believe HH’s middle path.
Choni, I would advise you to read my words with your mind rather than your heart, then perhaps you will understand the points being presented, which by-the-way your somewhat emotional outburst avoided entirely. The middle path you believe in leads to the very cage I referred to and would mean the death of Tibetan national identity.
As to the questions about being willing to accept Chinese rule and admit to being an ethnic minority of China, that has already been conceded by Samdhong and the TGIE. Do read the charmingly named ‘Memorandum On Genuine Autonomy For Tibetans’, its all there.
So in supporting the MWA you are indeed agreeing to those very compromises, since the TGIE has stated its willingness to accept Chinese domination and accepted that Tibetans are a Chinese minority.
As noted previously there are countless numbers of Tibetans in Tibet who are not prepared to submit to foreign oppression and occupation. I believe in the determination, sacrifice and courage of the Tibetan people and in the justness of their cause for a free and independent Tibetan nation.
Choni, you are very welcome. Many people (both foreigners and Tibetans) are very ignorant or uninformed about the situation for Tibetans in Tibet. They are immune to the real consequences of Rangzen. Tibetan Jeff Bowe, when are you heading back to Tibet to lose your life in the name of Rangzen? If you can’t get in legally, you can always slip across the border and enter illegally.
Jeff’s statement, “Hugh stands in clear support of Tibetan freedom and independence, in that context he is acting in harmony with Tibetans inside Tibet, who no doubt would be greatly encouraged to note such support. One wonders of course what they would make of those voices which urge them to surrender to Chinese domination?” (‘in Harmony with Tibetans?’ How can Hugh know that he is representing the people of Tibet?) and this one, “As demonstrated during the uprisings of 2008 the resistance to Chinese occupation is being ‘fought’ inside Tibet, and the objectives of the Tibetan people are clear, to regain independence for their country. The suffering in Tibet, inflicted by a foreign power, is an attempt to eradicate Tibetan national identity.” Sounds like Hugh and Jeff have both travelled all over Tibet carrying out full scale investigation of the real situation along with an undercover referendum and have the results in their hot little hands.
Seriously, each and every one of us should stand up for what we believe in. But we should not push our ideals onto others for our own benefit(or the assumed aspirations of a whole nation of people). Furthermore, we should refrain from offending and insulting them in the process. If you calculate the population of Tibet and the number that are willing to lose their life for Rangzen the evidence is clear.
I would like to offer two examples to demonstrate the divided aspirations of Tibetans, both come from Western male supporters of Tibet’s right to self determination:
the first is a Tibet human rights who visited Tibet, an activist that sees Rangzen activists as heroes that are willing to stand up against Chinese rule:
“after a trip to Tibet and speaking to some Tibetan people, they have asked me to do something for them when I got back home”
the other is from Patrick French former director of Free Tibet Campaign who visited Tibet, then stepped down from his position because he saw the grew between the black and white:
“When I came back I resigned from my position at the Free Tibet Campaign. After seeing the daily compromises that Tibetans have to make in order to live in a police state, I felt that foreign campaigners were not making their lives any easier. Some Tibetans believe that overseas campaigning makes the Chinese Government, with its xenophobic fear of foreign interference, create stricter controls over them.”
Outsiders need to stop claiming that they represent the people of Tibet. Tibetans do not all feel the same way.
This is an interesting example of the divide:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-03-17-tibet_N.htm
Just to clarify the link I have provided above. It is not in support of one side (read the article and you will get the gist). It is a representation of the divide. You can claim that many Tibetans have sold themselves out, compromised and so forth but each and every Tibetan has a different story to tell. They stand as one on some issues, are undecided on some, flip-flop on others. Tibetan people’s views are also not stagnant, they change according to events, circumstances, opportunities, insight, understanding, lack of insight, lack of understanding. They are not one people, but communities, language and cultural groups, individuals that make up a complex diaspora, not just in Tibet, but also in exile.
Hi Jeff Bowe
Thanks you for your an illogical advice. I didn’t know your heart and mind both read one thing differently. what a special human being you are. you must be from heaven!!!!!or another planet!
Except you, entire 6 Million Tibetans knew the destructions China brought and there are so many people speculating if Tibet freedom struggle would last another 40 year then, not only our goal Rangzen will become unfeasible, our nation’s Identity will spontaneously vanish based on what China is going now in Tibet.
HH and TGIE came up with middle path approach is not renounce death of Tibetan national identity if you know how to read paper. As I said earlier nobody on earth wanted to be under someone else’s oppression and occupation. Once again I said My view and believe is middle path so Tibet will be one the minorities in China based on full autonomy. This is not something I made up. If you still want be sarcastically accusing then I advice you go ahead do it with TGIE and HH that is where middle path idea was born first place.
I am so happy and can’t wait to see you cross Himalaya. Just let you know one more time nobody blocked you and thee is always a way to get there.
Please don’t wait countless brothers and sisters in Tibet, they already did what they could . You forgot that you should be one them countless sacrificing life in Tibet. You just simply rebuke on me with your precarious mix thoughts. There is nothing and nothing at all behind everything you said and simply sarcastic. Over all everything you wrote is simply a reverberation non-sense noise.
Readers could be forgiven for not being clear on the ‘reasoning’ presented by the previous contributor. It seems the author is indulging in some fallacious argument that Tibetans outside of Tibet are not in a ‘qualified’ position to oppose, criticize or campaign against the atrocities of the occupying Chinese, on the basis that they themselves are not directly experiencing the suffering. Such thinking is reminiscent of a sort of myopic anthropological mindset, in which subject credibility is only seemingly possible by immersion and direct contact. Scratched on a dissertation drafted in the comfortable halls of some university, such logic may hold a questionable validity. Imagine though for one moment if we extend such convoluted thinking to more real world issues. Presumably the author would have found herself in opposition to exiled Cambodians, who opposed and campaigned against the atrocities of the Khymer Rouge. Applying the model, that only those facing suppression and abuse are sufficiently informed or experienced to speak out, Amnesty International, MSF, Human Rights Watch and many others would never have flourished.
It would appear too that such a line-of-thinking, with its alluring appeals to reason, would have advised the people of East Timor that in light of their suffering it would be better to accept a more realistic solution, and to give up their struggle for freedom and independence.
On the subject of Rangzen, readers may well be asking where was this contributor during 2008 when a wave of pro-Tibetan independence demonstrations swept arcoss the three regions of Tibet (I would recommend studying Warren Smith’s excellent book on the subject ‘Tibet’s Last Stand? Which features a highly detailed chronology of events that witnessed Tibetans facing bullets, torture and prison to demand independence for Tibet). The Tibetan Center For Human Rights and Democracy too documented (and continues to do so) widescale protests for Tibetan freedom. There exists a wealth of credible, detailed and verifiable material which reveals that decade after decade Tibetans inside Tibet desire freedom and independence. This reality has been recognized by Kundun, who has on several occasions stated that the majority of Tibetans want freedom:
“I also know that every Tibetan hopes and prays for the full restoration of our nation’s independence” (HH The Dalai Lama March 10-1994).
As to the fact-free inference that many Tibetans do not share the goal of Rangzen in Tibet, this is a red-herring, but let’s briefly expose it as such. Firstly, there was a recent census taken covertly inside Tibet, in which from a total of some 17 000 Tibetans only 2000 openly stated support for the ‘Middle Way’. The breakdown of the results revealed those favouring independence as more than 5000, those following the Dalai Lama as some 8000, whilst the number of Tibetans supportive of autonomy numbered 2000! Please note too thatthe Speaker of the Tibetan Parliament in Exile reportedly agreed that few in Tibet are in favour of that policy (Autonomy) (See: Indian Express 18th November 2008)
Secondly there are many Tibetans who have sacrificed themselves for a free nation, since 1950 countless numbers have died been tortured and imprisoned for daring to challenge China’s illegal occupation. That resistnce continues and while some may choose to stay at home, this is done, not from any political decision not to support Rangzen, but from an oppressive fear which hangs over Tibet due the tyranny imposed by China. Yet as known by His Holiness in every Tibetan heart beats still the hope for a free nation.
Choni, you are wasting your time trying to reason with any of these people. I hope you return to Tibet soon and I am sure when you do you will contribute something positive to your country, your people and to your own life. Your English language skills are a wonderful achievement. Good luck Choni.
Quoted from Jeff Bowe above:
“As to the fact-free inference that many Tibetans do not share the goal of Rangzen in Tibet, this is a red-herring, but let’s briefly expose it as such. Firstly, there was a recent census taken covertly inside Tibet, in which from a total of some 17 000 Tibetans only 2000 openly stated support for the ‘Middle Way’. The breakdown of the results revealed those favouring independence as more than 5000, those following the Dalai Lama as some 8000, whilst the number of Tibetans supportive of autonomy numbered 2000! Please note too thatthe Speaker of the Tibetan Parliament in Exile reportedly agreed that few in Tibet are in favour of that policy (Autonomy) (See: Indian Express 18th November 2008)”
Mr Bowe, these numbers still are not representative of the entire Tibetan population in Tibet and it does not take into consideration what people are willing to do to achieve independence and whether or not independence is in fact achievable in the near future under the current circumstances of the Chinese Government’s relationship with the Tibetan Government in Exile. It does not address what the Tibetan people may like to achieve personally in the meantime. It appears that Rangzen is not achievable in the near future, so what next for the Tibetan in Tibet? Even many Tibetan cadres, Tibetan police officers, Government representatives and so on are “followers (or admirers) of the (His Holiness the) Dalai Lama”, this goes without saying.
Let Tibetans in Tibet act and speak for themselves. Western supporters of Rangzen have no right to act or speak on behalf of Tibetans in Tibet.
I only have one more comment for the above people who are happy to promote and encourage Rangzen (at whatever cost, lost lives and imprisonment for Tibetans in Tibet) outside of Tibet in the comfort of India or the West.
PUT YOUR LIFE WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.
i don’t see any meeting ground between choni and jeff-not because they are two different symbols for autonomy and independence but because they belong to two diametrically opposite sets of thinking, styles of argument and presenting examples and understanding(or lack of) of examples:
one is calm reason and the other is raw emotion.
however, i admire both. jeff for his intellectual capacity and choni for what he had gone through in tibet.we need both arm chair warrior and ground warrior. they are not opposites but complimentary.
but what’s unfortunate is that the two goals are like fire and water. they don’t go together and never will.
well, i won’t stop jeff from writing his stuff and certainly won’t stop choni from going back to Tibet to pursue his genuine beliefs in the middle path.
I disagree. I find Choni annoying as hell and his/her writing gibberish. If it was so great in China, why did you come to India? What do you want us to do? go to Tibet and warm the prison benches for us to have the right to support rangzen? For your information, you are not the only one who have lost family members under Chinese brutal regime. I would say every family outside of Tibet have lost dear ones under the same regime that you are proposing we should return back to. What kind of culture and history are you proposing we perserve for our posterity? A culture of subservience and cowardice and lies? TGIE is on record saying that Traitor Ngabo is a patriot of Tibet and threw a ghastly public mourning on his behalf. Do you agree with that too? I recently saw a documentary with three of the Drapchi 14 who gave an interview and described in vivid detail how they never gave up on the struggle and even refused to sing the chinese national anthem. They were made to stand in the sun all day long for weeks on end and when they still refused to sing, they started torturing them one by one, daily, beating, electrocution in the mouth, in the other orifices of the body, that they could barely talk or walk after each session. This went on for months. They still refuse to comply. Finally, seeing that their will cannot be broken, they gave them two choices; sing the national anthem or die. They said they will never submit and they were ready to face execution for something they believe in. THIS IS STUFF TIBETANS ARE MADE OF AND THIS IS THE LEGACY AND HISTORY I WOULD WANT MY CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN TO REMEMBER AND HONOUR. I want them to be proud of being a Tibetan. This then becomes our folk stories, our legend, our history and finally our culture that sprang up from Ma Daksemo and honest and harsh soil of our ancestors and their blood on the plains of Tibet. I don’t want my children to be ashamed of being Tibetan, a group of cowering biles ready to agree to anything and kiss anybody’s ass. I rather not be Tibetan. Just fucking kill me then.
Jodie, quit trying to quilt trip Jeff and others from posting or offering their honest and heart-felt opinions on Tibet and Tibetans. I have been reading their stuff for a while now and they truly care about what happens to Tibet. I welcome their fresh, honest, and most of all true facts about tibet and the future of Tibet. It is only in tibetan society that those who fight for what is rightfully ours are considered ‘extreme’ and ‘delusional’. If you are so eager to sell us out, why don’t you start out by selling out your own country first? It is easy to give and take other people’s country when you have a free country to return to anytime trouble starts.
The central point remains that the overwhelming majority of Tibetans desire freedom and independence for their nation. A fact known and acknowledged by His Holiness, and witnessed through the blood and sacrifices of countless Tibetans since China’s invasion of 1950. That resistance against Chinese tyranny erupted across Tibet in 2008, in which protest-after- protest demanded an independent Tibet, and courageous Tibetans raised their national symbol in cities, towns and villages throughout Amdo, Kham and Utsang. By definition and expression it was a National Uprising.
As revealed by the ongoing struggle for independence, Tibetans inside Tibet and beyond are taking action and speaking for themselves. Those possessed of integrity and ethical conviction, such as Hugh, have the freedom and choice to stand with them in that cause, and to echo those political aspirations. Others of course may have some difficulty in supporting the Tibetan cause, pro-Chinese sympathies, academic callousness, political or personal agendas do operate.
With that-in-mind, the views of some contributors here, bring-to-mind the poetry of Milton: “Thus Belial, with words clothed in reason’s garb, counselled ignoble ease, and peaceful sloth,” in which a message of despair and defeat is advocated. Under the guise of ‘realism’ Tibetans are implored to accept their plight, yet with over 100 nations since World War Two having regained their independence, why should the Tibetan people be expected to accept anything less than full independence!
Cleary there are those, who for whatever reason (and we may suspect darker motives at play) are opposed to that objective and actively engage in efforts to misrepresent the reality of the struggle inside Tibet. One only has to consider the comments and writings of Melvyn Goldstein, Tom Grunfeld, Robert Barnett, Patrick French and Tsering Shakya to realise that there is an agenda at work which seeks to undermine and marginalize any effort to promote and support Rangzen. Yet that movement grows stronger, and far from despair, the actions of Tibetans inside Tibet is one of inspiration and courage. It is a remarkable testimony to the spirit, bravery and desire for independence that despite over five decades of oppression and violence Tibetan continue to defy the might of communist China. That sense of national identity culture and resistance remains undiminished, and continues to threaten China, as evidenced by its brutal attempts to eliminate any expression of nationalism.
Yet inside and beyond Tibet the hope and determination to regain independence is vibrant and vital element in the ideological struggle to preserve Tibetan cultural and national identity. Look at the selfless actions of Tibetans in Minneapolis on December 10 who took to the streets (in temperatures of minus 15 C) to demand justice, freedom and human rights for Tibet.
As can be confirmed by anyone privileged enough to have had an opportunity to talk with former inmates of the infamous Drapchi prison complex near Lhasa, on what is was they fought for, the response is a resounding and unambiguous ‘Bhod-Rangzen’ (an independent Tibet). Perhaps some contributors here, who seem unable or unwilling to accept that Rangzen is the heartbeat of the Tibetan cause, would care to enquire of Miss Ngawang Sangdrol if she risked her life and freedom for ‘some form of autonomy’ and endured the horrors of torture in the hope of some ill-defined association with Communist China?
A wealth of documentation, eye-witness accounts and media reports, show the desire for independence continues to find political and popular expression across Tibet, despite the oppression, censorship, torture and imprisonment. Visit the growing number of Tibetan websites, and observe the global demand for Rangzen that dominate the chat rooms and bulletin boards. Such factors however do not convince those with closed minds or agendas to promote. As Dorothy Parker noted, “You can’t teach an old dogma new tricks”. Such callous indifference would not be persuaded by the inspiring words of Tibetan hero Champa Tenzin, a prominent figure associated with the pro-independence movement in 1987, who stated at the time:
“To fight for the independence of one’s country is the duty and right of every individual. I am convinced that truth will prevail” (Champa later died under mysterious circumstances whilst under Chinese custody).
Those who seem determined to misrepresent the political aspirations of Tibetans, should have observed the moving plea issued by Mr. Kunchok Tendar at the 3rd International Tibet Supporters meeting in Berlin in 2000. Kunchock, a former political prisoner who, having been arrested in 1960, spent some 19 years in prison for pro-independence activities, stood before Tibet’s spiritual and political leader and stated:
“I believe that only complete independence for Tibet can now satisfy the aspirations of the Tibetan people… I therefore humbly request the international community to support the cause of Tibet’s independence”.
Would the nay-sayers and cynics have been moved to declare support for that cause, probably not, however their denials and distortions cannot deflect the truth that Tibetans share one hope, independence for Tibet. Those commentators, who peddle a message of autonomy and compromise, seek to present their views as a moderate assessment between alternative perspectives. This permits them to avoid confronting, in any profound or intelligent sense, the appalling injustice of Tibet’s occupation and the resultant violations arising from this. This perhaps identifies one of the irksome aspects of those who advocate the surrender of Tibetan national identity, a lack of commitment and conviction. An unwillingness to make a stand on the side of Tibet, and its legitimate struggle for independence. In its place we have essentially a manifesto of appeasement, which in insisting upon a ‘realistic’ accommodation of Chinese rule, legitimises Communist China’s invasion and resultant colonization of Tibet, a previously independent nation.
what a logged head JEFF you are.
It is so easy to say things you want to saying free world.
You obviously someone grew up outside country and got free education for years and now you using those few words that you learnt for free BS on somebody worked so hard in Tibet.
Hi Choni la
Please stop write anything to these people. let them BS in free world.
You don’t want to waste you time. right?
Hi Tenpa Dhargyal Gapshi
I am someone just came to US few months ago for study but my enlish still not enough to answer you comment on Choni but If you know Chinese or Tibetan then let me know
I will answer you all you BS on choni.
Thanks
I think Choni Tsultrim is someone did great job in Tibet and I feel how much he gone through and his family.
He know what needs to be done in Tibet to protect people and vanish culture for immediate reasons.
I am surprised that people who born outside has no feeling toward people from Tibet.
Hi brothers and sisters
I stop write if that Rangzenwa’s wanted
I am put my view and thoughts out there let people know how I see situation right now in Tibet and for the sake of farther lose more lives and protect our priceless culture deterioration.
yes and I am not going to waste my time.
This poem Wosar la wrote from China
and I did very quick translation for you guys to read:
明天你时否会想起，昨天你听过的歌？
明天你是否还惦记，曾经看过的博客？
朋友们都已算不清，抓了多少个人，
我也是偶然翻过墙，才发现又关了一个。
谁封了我们的网站，谁每天在监视着我？
谁不高兴为我做寿衣，谁高兴了让我们唱歌？
明天你是否会想起，昨天你写过的诗？
明天你是否还惦记，曾经拥有的家？
朋友们都已算不清，走过了多少地方？
我也是幸运翻过山，来到这自由世界。
谁占了我们的家园，谁当家做了主人？
谁逼走了我们的上师，谁让他回不了家乡？
从前的事情都远去，老人已相继过世，
无论我是否愿想起，记忆永不会消失。
流浪了多少个年头，显然已不再重要，
多少人流尽了血泪，只为那重新相聚！
谁成了我们的主子，谁还在漂泊异乡?
谁为了我们日夜操劳，谁让我们牵肠挂肚？
Would you recall the songs tomorrow, you listened yesterday?
Would you miss the guest tomorrow, you welcomed yesterday?
Nobody be able to account, How many are arrested.
Accidental climb over the wall, noticed that again somebody is locked up.
Who shut down our websites, and who everyday watch behind us?
Who chastise us when they not happy, who let us sing when they happy?
Would you remember tomorrow, Poems that you wrote yesterday?
Would you recall tomorrow, the home you had yesterday?
Nobody be able to account, how many places tripped to?
I myself fortunate climbed over mountains, came to free world.
Who occupied our home, who became land lord?
Who forced our spiritual leader to leave, who made him not be able to return?
Everything happened gone for ever, old ones most past away.
Whether I want to recall or not, memories won’t lose forever.
How many years had hang around, clearly that is not important now.
How many people’s tears and blood dried up, only because for our return.
Who became our land lord, who is still refugee outside the country?
Who works so hard for us day night, who made us empty stomach and starved ?
Penpa, please try to lay aside your emotions and consider the points being discussed with a cool mind.
Tenpa Dhargyal Gapshi, Jeff and Hugh have insulted Choni for his views. I am not trying to stop them from posting. I fully understand their way of seeing things.
The effects of Rangzen don’t stop with the participators, they are far reaching and have enormous consequences for whole communities. Non-Tibetans on lookers can see them as they please, some Tibetans see Rangzen supporters as heroes, some Tibetans view them as trouble-makers, others have mixed views.
I am happy to sell out my country, I am also happy to pack up and leave it, because I recognise that I have no right to be here uninvited. The British Government had it their way and destroyed the indigenous people’s traditional way of life. Their land, their livelihood and their children were taken from them, they introduced alcohol and disease and killed off most of the tribes across the country. For this I feel great sadness and shame. Many Australian people are hard hearted about this matter, they blame the indigenous people for not assimilating. The indigenous situation is not comparable on many levels to the one of Tibet, but their country was taken over by a more powerful one. What should they do? Should they fight for an unachievable Black Australia and destroy themselves and the remnants of their culture or should they make the best of a bad deal and protect what is left?
BTW if the indigenous people want me out and China/Tibet will have me I am happy to pack up and move there.
Mila Rangzen has his own views but is kind hearted and deep enough to respect others. Jeff, the only question regarding Rangzen is, “How do you plan to achieve it?” By being an “arm-chair warrior”?
Choni, I hope you make it back to Tibet. I can’t even begin to imagine how you must be feeling right now. I sure hope you have some support around you.
Keep in Touch
deqenmoon@yahoo.com.au
Penpa you are very right and very kind. If there was nobody to support Choni he would have been further insulted and outcast. Thanks for the poem Choni.
The Tibetan people have themselves resisted Chinese occupation for over five decades, that struggle continues. Tibetans in exile possess the right to take what action they may in solidarity with the objectives of their brothers and sisters inside Tibet. Moreover, non-Tibetans too, who value freedom, human rights and justice are free (indeed some may suggest a moral and ethical responsbility)to oppose the tyranny inside Tibet, and support the Tibetan struggle to regain freedom and independence.
i see a lot is being done by many here and elsewhere but isn’t it time we independence folks form something like 100 core from hundred places in exile and in tibet.very informal. there is no need for office or organization as such. no files. just email or cellphone text messages can be used as tools to do what we need to do. we can do things freely without the do’s and don’ts of an organisation/association and yet with a high level of co-ordination. freedom to do what and when you want to do and at the same time some sort of missionary style..the only condition is that the member has to be a passionate secular party system independence believer. we will fight on 2 fronts. one with chinese intellectuals/posters online and the other to introduce political changes in our system of government and its goal like replacing the old folks with rangzen mps, kalons, kalon tripas etc. already some folks in dhasa are working on this.
jn will be the sort of on line/face book political teacher/guide? and lhasang tsering can be a speech political guru?
gradually hundred core can be increased to a thousand core. i dont know what to call it but it doesn’t have to be another tyc with 50,000 members. we can go on with our daily lives but at the same time something effective and powerful. what do you say jeff, gapshi, kelsang phuntsok, lejotsang and others?
our primary job will be to remove the dirt from the pitcher no. 1 and to place the upside down pitcher no. 2 in the correct position and to wield/seal the hole at the bottom of the pitcher no. 3. and fill them up with the milk of secular party system democracy for independence gradually maturing in to political roles as well as militant ones. personally i believe in bi-party system, not multi-party. it’s not perfect. it has its own pros and cons but to me the pros far outweigh the cons here. a lot of the stuff that can’t be discussed here can be discussed off line in person.
Jeff is again and again preaching us not to speak our emotions but reasoning.
I wonder if our purpose in engaging in dialogs on this blog is to prove how much intelligent we are, how much smarter I’m than others, how many more important news paper articles I read about Tibet, how many websites of Tibet support groups support Rangzen but not Middle path or vice versa, how many protestors in Tibet last year called for Rangzen but not for autonomy, so and so.
It is the emotion is the power and driving force in 1959, 1988, and 1989 and again in 2008 uprisings and protects while reasoning was not and will be not. So called your reasoning is nothing but a stubborn arrogance, a selfish indulgence and a purposeful insult in this context talking about a sorrowful men and women’s time of unresisting emotions.
Kyab, if you don’t know english very well, then I suggest you learn it better so you can understand exactly what I have written and what JN has written and what Jeff and others have written. First you have to understand what is being said before you can avail yourself to answer something you consider BS. That goes for Choni too since I can tell she is not getting what Jeff has been patiently writing for a while now. I am not in the business of trading away my nation just becuase Choni’s family has suffered under the communist bastards. Like I said, we have all suffered but this doesn’t weigh in on the facts being discussed here. Nor do I think that I have to get my ass beaten for 6 years before I am qualified to speak on behalf of Tibet. If that is the case, then who among those in Middle path proponents have been in Chinese gulags and have suffered innumerable torture simply because they are tibetan? If we follow that logic, their stance would also be tenuous. I guess nobody but tibetans in Tibet have the right to speak about rangzen then. Again, by the logic, as evidenced in march 2008, the verdict was pretty clear. Did you had your head in your ass then?
Jodie, I don’t remember Jeff insulting Choni. If Choni wants to deliberately misunderstand Jeff, then what can I say. It would seem like she has an agenda and no matter how patiently Jeff explains his position, she goes on a temper tantrum which sometimes makes sense and sometimes supports Jeff and it is the same flawed reasoning again and again – kind of like Traitor Ngabo’s position. Some things are not negotiable and your country is one of them. If you can even negotiate that, then you have no right to be a free citizen and you deserve to be a slave. Like Benjamin Franklin said, “Those who trade freedom for security deserves neither”. Well, if you are willing to sell your country then I guess you wouldn’t think twice about selling mine. I rest my case.
Let it rise like a wave on the face of an ocean,
Let it be like a raging fire and torrent,
Let it be brave man and women’s yearning for freedom and justice,
Let it be their hereoric moments and be their emotional moments,
Let try not to silence their courageous voices by our poisonous speeches ,
Let it be them decision makers and leaders and speakers of their fate
Let them be hand in hand, shoulder to shoulder marching for what they always dream and thirsty and hungry for.
When 3/14/07 uprising took place across Tibet, we saw pictures after pictures of monks in kham and elsewhere protesting carrying placards in Tibetan that said “bhod rangzen”; we saw laities and monks on the streets of Lhasa draped themselves in Tibetan national flag demanding Chinese leave Tibet. I dont think i need to upload their pictures to prove it. Fortunately, Choni who apparantly lives in a free country, has someone so kind by the name Jodie come to his rescue from being ‘insulted’ and supported him for raising his Middleway views. Those brave monks and laity brothers and sisters who went face to face with Chinese regime on the streets of lhasa,kham and amdo in march of 2007 shouting “bhod rangzen” and calling on Chinese to leave Tibet despite facing bullets, are now likely rotting in Drapchi prison and probably being insulted on a daily basis by the prison guards for their political views as they give them another round of electric shock or tie their hands in the back and deliver a mighty kick across their face. I wonder who’s going to come to their rescue, restore their dignity from being insulted and tell them “we support your demand”.
Unless one doesn’t believe in Tibet being an invaded country, comments made by Hugh or Jeff with regard to conflict resolution of our cause are as pertinent and inspirational and make every bit of sense.
Tibet is a nation perhaps as old as China with rich culture and history. Everyone with sense of fairness and truth knows that Chinese have done and are doing everything in their power to destroy Tibetan culture and identity so they can rule over us like Inner Mongolia and Manchuria with no problem. If we let that happen we Tibetans are perhaps doing the most unforgivable disservice to our nation, our forefathers and to ourselves. Chinese acts in the last 50 yrs in Tibet have been no less than that of Nazi Germany. TGIE desperately wants to solve Tibet problem by agreeing to every word China dictates, yet China shuns TGIE and His Holiness like Untouchables and waste time in the name of “talks”, not once but eighth times now. Actually just a couple of days ago China sentenced a respectable Chinese named Lui Xiabao for 11 yr prison term and his crime was he asked for freedom and rule of law in China. There are countless such cases of unjust in the past, but since the news was all over the TV and papers recently we all should be knowing about it. So, given how evil minded, stubborn and averse to change China is, if some of our friends suggest the best option for Tibetans to live in their own land and preserve their culture is by fighting for total independence, and not Autonomy, what’s so “insulting” about that?
Saving Tibet is far more important than worrying about a few people like Choni’s relatives or my relatives back in Tibet who may not be able to go out to graze their yaks if we in exile demanded Rangzen. I have lost several of my relatives in Tibet and in exile who died waiting that Tibet might soon become free and they would be able to reunite. I love my family, but they don’t live forever. Tibet can live forever if we saved it from dying. Do not misunderstand I’m advocating suicide attacks here. Far from it. But to say that some of our brethren’s freedom maybe curved back home if we in exile carried out ‘rangzen’ activism and thus suggest inaction is myopic mindset at best. If we are talking about saving a nation and its culture, we need to think a little bit more than that, I guess. Or else we are sacrificing a national cause for the sake of our family’s happiness. Jodie can see wisdom in Patrick French’s similar analysis, but I don’t think everyone who has suffered as a direct result of foreign invasion would quite get it.
Tibetans in exile have suffered as much as Tibetans inside Tibet. It’s not that people like Choni only have relatives back in Tibet. I have as many relatives as he has in Tibet or maybe more. When my parents fled Tibet they were teenage, leaving behind their parents, relatives and house and properties everything, to a land they knew nothing of. They begged on streets and there was no roof over their head when night fell. Exile was forced upon them, not something they chose. It’s been over 40 years now since they were uprooted from their land and family and still they pray that they be able to return back to Tibet and be united with their relatives. Living in exile hasn’t been easy for them. They have to live with the label REFUGEE on their forehead and be subject to number of discriminations and disdain in the host nation. We as their children inherit the Refugee label and share similar fate. On a daily basis. We can’t wait to go back and live with dignity in our own land like any Sarjorwas (literal meaning please, no hate intended). This struggle for freedom of Tibet is not only for the freedom of Tibetans living inside Tibet. It’s as much for freedom from being REFUGEE to us exile Tibetans. If I say Free Tibet, it’s as much for my brethren in Tibet as it’s for myself. Tibet belongs to exile Tibetans as much as it belongs to Tibetans inside Tibet. Every Tibetan has right to demand what he or she wants for Tibet – Rangzen or Autonomy, based on his or her personal introspection and analysis of situation. So, Choni, do not imply that only people like you who have recently come from Tibet have the right or are more “qualified” to speak for Tibet. It’s akin to taking away our constitutional right as Tibetan. It’s highly wrong and immature on your part. You can go ahead make your case – Rangzen or Umaylham, or quit, but kill the sense that somehow you ‘possess’ moral authority over us to decide what’s good for Tibet, and treat us like as though we lost our right to claim over Tibet since the day our parents fled Tibet.
And by the way, if one demands for Rangzen, it doesn’t mean he has to cross the Himalayas and wage war with Chinese. One can stage a candle light vigil before the Chinese Consulate and demand Rangzen. Rangzen doesn’t mean violence. It can be as peaceful and non-violent as Middleway. If the odds are too high for Rangzen, then the odds for Middleway are not any lower. If you know the China that I know, then probably you will know what I m talking about.
Bhodgyallo!
As the whole political world continues to ignore Tibetan claims, wishes and suffering and at the same time is selling what is left of it´s soul to the subhumans from CHINA, I think the time has come that even the biggest dreamer and hoper has realised that NO ONE cares.
As Tibet dies, with international support, the question is do we accept it or not !
The exile tactics have not been successful. Of course there is wide support and donations are flowing and everyone loves HH the Dalai Lama. Me too !
So let´s all stop the bickering and pull together and turn the Cause into a MOVEMENT…with Tibetan leadership. Let´s at least rock the chinese boat (gunship) and not just stand by as they sail to success…or at least not wave !
The middle-way is a beautiful ideal. The chinese have no ideals so they don´t even understand what the aim would be.
Rangzen is the only option to save Tibet. The consequences for Tibetans inside Tibet is a part of daily Tibetan life and it´s a chinese argumentation to link it to Rangzen activities outside Tibet !
2009 was another tragic year…and a quiet one in exile.
2010…a new year and a new chance !
@TibetanMastiff
The advice to disuss matters in a sensible and calm manner on this forum in no way precludes or argues agsint the passion, determination, heart and courage which characterizes the Tibetan resistance to foregn occupation. However, on forums such as this, reaching common ground and exchanging ideas is not assisted by inflamed outbursts, misrepresentation or ad hominem.
Sangay,
Please upload for me, I can’t wait to see “laities and monks on the streets of Lhasa draped themselves in Tibetan national flag demanding Chinese leave “.
I am also eager to learn ” Those brave monks and laity brothers and sisters who went face to face with Chinese regime on the streets of lhasa,kham and amdo in march of 2007″ I think I slept over in an ice cave in northpole in 2007 .
As a people I have nothing against the Chinese, but accepting them as my overlords politically, economically and culturally abhors me. China’s treatment of Tibet, its people, the country and the land has always has been abusive and extremely negligent since the day they walked in with their guns and bombs. China has a long documented history of destroying and annihilating minority races and cultures that don’t blend in. Therefore, the dreams and hopes some amongst us have, that China will see her wayward ways, recant and welcome Tibetans as brothers and as equals, is as far fetched as the existence of Shangri-La.
Ngabo Ngawang Jigme had this dream and so did, Tibetan Communists like Phuntsok Wangyal. The former was a traitor and the later and idealist. They both claimed what they did was for the betterment of the Tibetan people, but 50 years under the illegitimate and cruel treatment of China have proved their theories were wrong in every way. China does not care for Tibet, its people, culture or religion; China is in Tibet to exploit its mineral wealth, the land and its strategic positioning on the global map and nothing else!
Apologist for China and the Middle path followers have argued that negotiating with China will bring about awareness and lessen the destructive impact of Chinese policies in Tibet with regard to the treatment of our people, culture and religion. However, none of this has happened. Six to Seven rounds of talks have taken place with the Chinese and they have not even moved a hairs-breath forward. In fact, they have hardened their resolve each time and after each failed meeting have ratcheted up the harsh treatment and policies in Tibet by declaring, “fight-to-the-death struggle” and other nefarious struggle campaigns to weed out pro-dalai, pro-Tibet activists.
The situation is dire, I agree yet many of our brothers and sisters in Tibet are not calling for better treatment, monetary compensation or better political system; they are calling for the return of HHDL and the restoration of our nationhood and our traditional way of life under our own leadership. In every peaceful demonstration, our national snow-lion flag is carried and used as a common tie that binds us together as a nation with one objective, Rangzen.
Rangzen is the only way to keep our heads above the water level so that we don’t end up on the bottom of a toxic lake. How we achieve this is another matter, but I do not recommend that China apologist and supporters of the middle way put words into my mouth and claim that my Rangzen is equal to guns, bombs and terrorism.
@gyalpot bravo!
Mastiff,
I wrote the above in the wee hours last night after coming home frm late night Christmas party. Perhaps red wine had taken toll on me. The year is not 2007 but 2008. I apologize to the readers for confusion. I hope you were sleeping in your house then. But the protest was so widespread n wellknown, I m sure it didnt have missed polar bears attention.
This mad-elephant like behavior is not peculiar with China only, it is a universal characteristic of all expansionist occupiers, china’s invasion of the land of snows and treatment of her people indeed are so brutal and so violent that they are beyond Jeff’s words of reasoning, Gyalpos’ flows of emotions and JN’s scholarly writings.
I thought our purpose of discussions on this forum and other stages were how to help our brothers and our sisters in Tibet, but I have been observing people rush to take sides and trash opposites with ill feelings and arrogant lectures.
I don’t believe if we have right to interpret heroic actions of Tibetans inside Tibet to fit into our black and white theories.
Tibetans in free world can’t act like liberators and guides to inside Tibetan s and pose an image of false hopefulness and falsehoodness, we have to be honest with them and we have to make it clear that we indeed are spectators, occasional sympathizers, and that they are saviors and sailors of their sinking ship.
There is no interpretation required concerning the selfless actions of those who resist China’s occupation of Tibet. As witnessed by the National Uprisings of 2008 Tibetans are engaged in a struggle to regain their freedom and nation. Those who express support for that courageous and determined effort to challenge Chinese oppression, and strive for Tibet’s independence, do so not to support personal ideals, but simply to display solidarity with the objectives and actions of Tibetans inside Tibet. The hope and inspiration which has driven the Tibetan cause, for over five decades in exile, springs from the remarkable valour and sacrifices made by Tibetans in Tibet. Far from being a helpless and doomed crew of a sinking vessel Tibetans, in their heroic resistance, are defending and asserting the national identity, and carrying forward the dream of a free nation. There is much to be proud and positive about.
Beacuse you are just an onlooker and an interpreter of images, appearances to your arrogant senses, therefore you will not, will never hear and undersand how a crew of sinking ship feel and how the situation is heart aching and helpless.
There is no appearance or illusion regarding the political aspiration, courage and determination of Tibetans inside Tibet. Their achievements in defying the violent oppression of communist China is inspirational, and a testament to the spirit of freedom and independence which beats in all Tibetan hearts.
The fact that in the face of China’s cultural onslaught, expansionism and assimilationist aggression, Tibetans continue to rise up and resist is truly inpsiring. A sign of hope, courage and determination.
Henceforth, I have no regret to call you an interpreter of images and a speculator.
A strange thing is happening amongst Tibetan communities in exile and their inji friends since I have no idea when, new age Buddhism shoppers rush to take sides of lamas who are radicals and sectarianism prompters, and intellectual pupils and political spectators of Tibet Diaspora rush to take side between Rangzen and Middle path, making up stories of their speculation and waging wars of intellectual games across internet forums and online chat rooms and meeting halls across globes.
what a smart and wise guy you are, you immediately without needing even a slightest thinking and with all speculations foreseeing me a man of Buddhist philosophy and talking about appearance and illusion.
Henceforth, I have no regret to call you an interpreter of images and a speculator.
A strange thing is happening amongst Tibetan communities in exile and their inji friends since I have no idea when, new age Buddhism shoppers rush to take sides of lamas who are radicals and sectarianism prompters, and intellectual pupils and political spectators of Tibet Diaspora rush to take side between Rangzen and Middle path, making up stories of their speculation and waging wars of intellectual games across internet forums and online chat rooms and meeting halls across globes.
PLS read sectarianism prompters for sectarianism promoters,
Political spectators to political speculators.
tsering woeser has rightly been critical of chinese policies in tibet but she is not in jail. she was even on kunling tv a few days ago. what’s this? is it ok for china as long as you don’t scream independence? i am sure i am missing something big here. help!
kyab,
it’s not inside/outside tibet story. you are blowing things out of proportion. people can agree or disagree depending on their reasons or emotions.
there may be some differences in thinking and understanding of things. that may have something to do with differences in the environment in which they were born and raised and also remember the huge gap of 20 years with no contact between inside/outside tibet.
In this world there exist some conditions and actions which do not require any tortured philosophical examination, nor intellectual reasoning, they are in themselves simply wrong and abhorrent. The invasion and subsequent destruction of Tibet’s Buddhist culture is a case-in-point, where a nation, which had enjoyed all the features of an independent state, was forcibly annexed and its people brutalized, massacred, starved, marginalized and assaulted with a range of social, and political controls. All of which shared one objective, the eradication of Tibet’s distinct culture and identity.
Such cultural genocide invites a response from anyone possessed of normal intelligence and integrity. An ethical demand is surely placed upon the conscience of any who uphold the values of justice, freedom and human rights. The issue, is again is not complicated. Do we stand with those who endure and resist such oppression? Should we wring-our-hands and peddle defeatism and despair, or be inspired by the incredible bravery and sacrifices made by those who risk all to champion the cause of independence and identity?
If we subscribe to the path of so-called ‘realism’, what future awaits the spirited and freedom loving people of Tibet? After more than five decades of Chinese rule Tibetans know too well that under Beijing’s ever draconian grip, no form of so-called autonomy will respect their cultural, political or national identity. China seeks to extinguish any sense of Tibetan seperateness, and is thus entirely intolerant of increased ‘autonomy’.
The assimilation and colonization will continue, whatever insane agreement may be reached between the TGIE and Beijing. The ruthless exploitation of Tibet’s environment, the mass-programs of forced sterlizations, which traumatizes countless Tibetan women, the censorship and oppression, the polical control and murderous suppression of any form of dissent, will continue. Such is the reward of submitting to Chinese control.
The alternative to such capitulation has already been commited to action by those inside Tibet, resist the occupation, protest against the injustice and violations, and remind both the world and communist China that the hopes, determination and desire for Tibetan freedom burns as strong now as ever.
For me yours are mere mantra recitations:
“O, My bravos,resist and continue to die, we’re inspired and we will continued to be inspited whenever we hear and see on lage TV screens that you are doing inspiring things for our eyes and our ears,
O, my brave Tibetans inside Tibet, resist and die, we are watching and we arw listening, maybe one day we’ll come to your rescue”
What a poweful mantra indeed!
The alternative to the defence of Tibetan national idenity would mean denying Tibetan nationhood, culture and freedom. In other words the complete surender of any sense of Tibetaness. In effect submitting to the Chinese lie that Tibet has always been part of China and that Tibetans are a Chinese ethnic minority. Proposing the servile acceptance of Chinese domination simply endorses China’s ‘Final Solution’ for Tibet. How many Tibetans are prepared to burn their chubas, surrender their national flag, and abandon their anthem, in exchange for an uncertain slavery under communist dictate?
I want to tell Jeff a story to remind him how emotions such Choni and others on this blog earlier showed is powerful and his theory of reasoning is being failed and how a shadowed false hopefulness being posed on to Tibetans inside by Tibetans outside and their speculating supporters in the west:
After the subside of the storm of the 2008 protest across the Land of Snows, during one of conversations with my brother who is a teacher in Tibet, I asked why didn’t he took part in the protest, he said ‘who is going to take care of my children and my wife if I die’, when I asked my other sibling from village why he took part in the protest, he said it was such an emotional moment and he just didn’t think about what worse could happen to his family if he dies. He also told me that he thought Tibetans and their supporters in America and in exile will come to their rescue.
Every struggle for freedom and nation has individual tragedy, dilemma, courage and compromise. There are also many accounts of heroism, sacrifice and selflessness. There are in this life always reasons, some extremely plausible and persuasive; none more so than family, which prevent some from taking action. Such cases sowever are a thread in a larger canvas, in which countless numbers are also offering up their freedom, well-being and personal security to challenge oppression.
In that context the resistance waged by Tibetans across Tibet, in full knowledge of the terror and violence, which may descend upon family and village, is truly inspiring. It is also indicative of the passion and determination to regain Tibet’s freedom.
To refrain from challenging tyranny, and comply with the oppression, because of the brutal intimidation which may result, may well be an understandable and natural process of self-preservation, but it is also a path that leads to the prison gate. Since 1950 Tibetans inside Tibet have been at the knife-edge of that reality which is why, despite the risk to family and home, they have so bravely risen to oppose the occupation and demand independence.
Jeff, one wonders about the intentions of your rhetoric. Tibetan Mastiff is trying to point out that there are real men, women, children and whole communities involved in this equation. If you went face to face with a Tibetan man, his wife, his children and his community in Tibet would you say this to them?
“To refrain from challenging tyranny, and comply with the oppression, because of the brutal intimidation which may result, may well be an understandable and natural process of self-preservation, but it is also a path that leads to the prison gate.”
Jeff, I will warn you in advance that you could expect mixed reactions if you did;
some Tibetans will laugh,
others will shake their heads,
some will want to chase you out of the village,
others will agree but not be willing to follow through,
one or two may be ready, willing and able
Since 1950 Tibetans have resisted Chinese occupation, spilt their blood in the frozen soil of the Chang Tang, the rivers of Kham and grasslands of Amdo. The resistance continues, individuals all too aware of the hazards and imminent threat of arrest and torture. Extraordinary Tibetans, men and women, standing up to the terror and oppression. The wellspring for this incredible spirit of resistance rises from the brutal experiences of Tibetans inside Tibet, a profound sense of national identity, and a heartfelt desire for freedom and independence.
I’m pretty correct to say that this theory of yours ‘whatever it takes ‘in Tibetan struggle has it’s charms for onlookers and speculators, but it’s unfathomable pains are far from any conscious and persons of well functioned senses to draw any inspirations.
However, this doesn’t stop you from putting forth a viable strategy how to achieve Rangzen for Tibetans inside Tibet and restore their nationhood. But remember, ‘take whatever it takes’ theory is a deceitful one and an onlooker’s idealistic philosophy.
The actions of Tibetans inside Tibet, their valor and determination, in facing Chinese bullets, prison, torture and death are all too real indeed. Yet despite that harrowing reality Tibetans across Tibet are indeed taking to the streets of towns and villages to oppose Chinese domination and raise the Snow Lion high.
I wonder what a strategy you propose for achieving a day we together raise Snow Lion flag in capital of Tibet.
Jeff, would I be correct in speculating that you are guilty of romanticising everything Tibetan? Tibetans don’t fit neatly into the same box. Therefore, claiming to stand for Tibetans as a united people is ludicrous. It is not just ludicrous to claim allegiance to Tibetans that live in exile (as seen here) but it is even more ludicrous to claim that you represent the aspirations of Tibetans in Tibet. I think Tibetan Mastiff has nutted you out.
Tibetans indeed constitute a united people, sharing all the commonly accepted features which are used to define a ‘people’, including common language, culture, history, a shared form of governance and religion. In terms of political aspiration, as was observed during 2008, Tibetans across the three regions of Tibet rose up to demand freedom from Chinese occupation. As recognised by Kundun also, Tibetans are unified too in their hope for an independent nation
@Tibetan Mastiff
Tibetans have already launched a course of action, which anyone who supports freedom, justice and independence would support, namely resistance to Chinese rule and oppression.
Jeff, if you are a non-tibetan, I thank you for your support to our cause.
Jeff, from your previous 2 comments I can see how out of touch you really are with everything Tibetan. Good Luck with your campaigning.
Anyone who stands in solidarity with Tibetans, who have the courage to oppose foreign occupation and suppression, and is possessed of an integrity and sense of ethics, which refuses to endorse, excuse, or justify China’s illegal presensece in Tibet is in accord with the vast majority of Tibetans in Tibet.
Professor Sperling’s advice to us to learn directly from our classic books and our wise masters inspired me to search for a classic the book on outside world as Jamyang Norbu La mentiond as above.
Jodie,
It’s not living a few years in Dechen (not Deqen, please!) that gives you a better understanding of Tibetans than Jeff, nor is it your studies of Mandarin and Folklore. Far from that!
In fact, since decades, Jeff has been very closely involved with Tibetans, longer than you may ever be, and he didn’t spend this time writing “Haiku from Shangri-la” and licking the ass of Chinese authorities to get visas and the right to host new age tourists “for combined travel/artistic expression, written and visual”. Undoubtedly, this kind of selfish entertaining approach gives you another perspective on the Sino-Tibetan conflict…
Christophe,
If you are Christopher Beckwith from Indiana university, I want to let you know that i’m so impressed by your book on tibetan history called ‘Tibetan Empire in Central Asia’, i thought it would be even greater if some of the place names in Chinese language in your book around Korkornor region and other Tibetan areas can be put in Tibetan language.
I really liked the book and Im planning to read it again in near future.
The above comments from Tibetans speak for themselves. Jeff has already been put in his place by some Tibetans on this blog. Jeff, Hugh and others have insulted Choni and other Tibetan people for their beliefs and decisions. Jeff would like Tibetans to lose their lives in the name of Rangzen, if they are not happy to do this Jeff likes to challenge them with insults regarding their Tibetan-ness and patriotism. I can see you feel so threatened by a woman that you feel the need to abuse me personally. This only shows your weakness, and Jeff’s. I did not plan to hang around in here and watch Jeff as he insults other Tibetans. Seems like you would like to join in on his game. Good luck to you too.
I assume that you are Christope Cunniet from France-Tibet? That just speaks for itself.
It is extremely disappointing, and perhaps revealing, when contributors are unable and unwilling to marshall a balanced and reasonable discussion. Instead we have observed ad hominem, strawman arguments, evasion, fallacious posturing and misrepresentation.
It appears we are in the presence of minds, callously indifferent to the facts, an ideology which seems coloured with a pro-Chinese sympathy. Promoting an agenda which seeks to undermine any serious debate, and peddling a message of defeat and despair. Yet such obvious tactics do not alter the simple truth that it is Tibetans themselves in Tibet who have risen to resist the violent injustice and illegal occupation of their land. Nor does such bias conceal or undermine the reality that Tibetans are a people, unified by a common language, culture and history, with a right to national self-determination and independence. That, faced with increased cultural oppression and abuse, Tibetans, fully aware of the dangers, have taken to the streets and defied the tyranny of foreign rule to demand independence. Anyone supportive of justice and freedom will hear and support that voice from Tibet.
Some neither endorse or share the objective of a free and independent Tibetan nation. In denial of the reality of the nature and extent of Tibetan resistance, and its determination for freedom, they appear content to have Tibetans as some exotic tourist minority under Chinese rule.
The fact is that Tibetans themselves, through selfless sacrifice and tremendous courage, maintain the resistance to preserve their national identity and restore their nationhood.
Jodie you are a fan of two very Chinese loving writers, one is called Michael Parenti, he is an apologist for the Chinese and is repeating Chinese lies about Tibet,
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html
The other is Foster Stockwell. This guy has a Blog
http://inpursuitofhappiness.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/tibet-myth-reality/
which is full of Chinese propaganda about Tibet.
Jodie posted this message there:
“hi, thanks for your article. like the michael parenti one it gives some perspective on this oh so pro-Tibetan attitute that dominates the media. It is so unfortunate that not enough people have access to/want to hear all the facts on Tibet. I lived on the Tibetan plateau for more than 4 years and have had had first hand experience with the people and culture. Like others I went there believing the myth and found out the hard way”
Now Tibetans can see whose side you are on.
When I hear, read or participate in debate on whether Tibet should aim for Genuine Autonomy or Rangzen, I invariably feel very sad, tired and spent at the end of each such debate.
I always end up asking myself :
“To begin with, why is it that we are debating on it?” “Whose fault is it that we have to debate on this at all?”
We are debating on this because Tibet is colonized by a foreign country; more importantly we are debating on this because Tibetans haven’t given up our right to exist as a distinct nation.
China’s claim on its legitimacy to rule Tibet rests on two cardinal points:
1. That Tibet has been a part of China in the past, and that as an inevitable and natural historical phenomenon, Tibetans together with other ethnic groups such as Mongolians, Uighurs, etc will unify to form the “Great Chinese Nation” eventually
2. That People’s Liberation Army (PLA) of China has liberated the Tibetans from feudalism.
In the face of our current situation and given China’s above claims, the question that each of us Tibetans need to ask ourselves then is:
“Do we accept China’s claim on legitimacy to rule Tibet”
China’s claim on historical legitimacy to rule Tibet is a huge farce as we all know.
Mongolia was a part of the Manchu Qing dynasty. Until 1911, both Mongolia and Tibet were in the same political situation.
But Mongolia is an independent country since 1921, and China does not claim legitimacy to rule Mongolia.
If China does not have the historical legitimacy to rule Mongolia, same is the case with Tibet.
China has no historical legitimacy.
Did we Tibetans invite the PLA to liberate us from feudalism?
No, we did not. So this claim is a farce as well.
In my heart, the answer is loud and clear: I say no, China has no legitimacy what so ever to rule Tibet.
The next question that we then need to ask ourselves is: “What/which type of government will we Tibetans accept as having the legitimacy to rule Tibet?”
And that is what should be the focus of our discussion.
To whom do we want to give the power to rule us?
If your heart says “To Tibetans”, then there is no room for a debate in support of “Genuine autonomy”, unless if I am mistaken in my understanding of what this term stands in the context of Tibet-China negotiations.
However, if your heart says “To Chinese”, then there is no need to waste time debating on this blog.
Tibet is already under Chinese rule, and what else would such a person (who wishes Chinese to rule us) be looking for.
LEGITIMACY is the key word and that is what we need to remember.
Tibet historically has been a free nation and China has no legitimacy to rule us, unless we now concede that legitimacy to them.
And I sincerely believe that no Tibetan wish to concede that LEGITIMACY to China.
TCL
Joedi’s comment#71 says;
“Jeff, I will warn you in advance that you could expect mixed reactions if you did;
some Tibetans will laugh,
others will shake their heads,
some will want to chase you out of the village,
others will agree but not be willing to follow through,
one or two may be ready, willing and able”
I want to warm you not to speculate and making things out of your own excrements.
Every Tibetan will get angry at running dog propagandists like you and your kinds/
All will chase and stone hate promoters like you out of our villages and towns /
All will disapprove you and your red comrades now and then /
Many and hundreds and thousands of us are willing and able as we did in 1959, in 1980s, again in 2008 and we’ll continue to do so/
Stop baby crying and continue to lick Michael Parenti’s ass and Goldsteins’s.
Jodie,
How poignant is your support for Tibetans living under Chinese occupation…! Unfortunately, it hardly sounds sincere coming from a person who decided to side with the oppressor for her own personal interests. Your simple backing of running dog propagandists such as Michael Parenti and Foster Stockwell, as highlighted above by Tendor, should dissuade any intelligent reader to give some form of credit to your comments.
No matter what your personal motivations are, the truth is that the vast majority of Tibetans in Tibet are unhappy under Chinese rule and that the vast majority of them would be ready to do anything to actively oppose this tyranny if a clear strategy was shown to them. Those who support the Middle Way Approach don’t do it out of political motivation but exclusively because they fully trust the Dalai Lama (see an old comment of mine regarding the quality of omniscience that many Tibetans attribute to him). If tomorrow the Dalai Lama would call for a country-wide civil disobedience movement for independence, most Tibetans would follow him without the slightest hesitation.
It is not, as you seem to assume, the risks and deadly consequences that leave many Tibetans inside Tibet hesitant to act for full independence; it is the lack of leadership and clear goal in their struggle. If the Dalai Lama wasn’t so badly advised by pro-Chinese lobbyists and opportunists, the faith of Tibetans would probably not be in such a dead end.
I will not be surprised if some of the commentators on this blog are Chinese agents. I am confident some like Jodie are completely nuts. I have never met anyone in my entire life who is willing to sell his/her Country and openly admit it. Going by your logic,Jodie, it should give you more reason to support Rangzen for Tibet. But as crazy as you are, you want us to suffer the same consequences as the Australian Aborigins by surrendering our most fundamental right of self-determination and freedom to the oppressors.
By the way, there are a lot of differences between these two situations.
This is about our freedom, not Your fantasies.
When we injis argue for Middle Path or Rangzen, let us do so with humility. We can expose the sufferings and advance the aspirations of the Tibetan people, as is the responsibilty of those living in freedom for those living under oppression.
No inji has the right to tell any Tibetan what they ought to think or feel about their nation. like the many China apologists in government, academia and the press.
I challenge those who defend the Chinese Communist Party, who invoke the development excuse: that roads and televisions compensate for genocide.
Michael Parenti, Patrick French, Goldstein, JN had an excellent article with the full list last year – they enjoy the paternalistic role of the colonists, who know what’s best for the natives.
Remember when JN challenged Goldstein last year, the guy got nervous.
In the halls of power, Tibet is getting sold out like I’ve never seen. The China apologists winning.
Joe Hamilton is right: we need a NEW MOBILIZATION to give the CCP hell wherever and whenever.
Embarrass the hell out of Hu Jinato when he shows up at the UN.
FREE TIBET NOW!
The dirty politics of Free Tibet and the consequences of free speech. People expect propaganda from the Chinese Government, it is a big surprise when you find out that the propaganda coming from the Tibetan side is just as misleading and destructive. Join the flock, or stray and be labeled a black sheep or running dog; quoted from above:
Jeff wrote:
“One only has to consider the comments and writings of Melvyn Goldstein, Tom Grunfeld, Robert Barnett, Patrick French and Tsering Shakya to realise that there is an agenda at work which seeks to undermine and marginalize any effort to promote and support Rangzen.”
You can proudly add me and my Tibetan partner to this list. When I can bring myself to sing my country’s national anthem with pride and celebrate Australia Day (and what these stand for) that is when you will know that I am either crazy or dead.
Jodie,
Isn’t awfully pretentious from you to believe that you deserve the right to be added to the list of running-dog propagandists? No matter how despicable these people are, they’ve got another caliber than you and their aim is slightly more vicious. I insist, you are merely an opportunist that can go to any extent of treachery to fulfill some egocentric dream such as “Watching pilgrims, Watching me”…
HEY JODIE, why are you bragging about being an apologist for a genocidal totalitarian regime’s occupation of Tibet? Do feel the same of Stalin’s occupation of Ukraine? And Hilter’s conquest of Europe?
you just have to read Jodie’s comment 29 and the link she gave there where she tries her ass off to sound “fair-minded”. and number 71. inbetween are her BS just using choni’s despondency to portray she’s ‘caring’. my foot. it doesnt take rocket scientist to figure out where she’s coming frm. Jodie, u can go ahead and sell your country Australia or swear never to sing her national anthem, but dont you dare to expect or assume we are your lot. The fact that our culture and struggle is alive and thriving even after 50 years in exile is testament we are not shit-eater like you. I may not see Rangzen in my lifetime, i will make sure my child takes over torch from me and fights for it..
FREE TIBET and DOWN WITH CHINA AND HER APOLOGISTS.
jodie,
i thought you are a supporter with a different view.
but you end up supporting the running dogs of the murderous chinese regime.
beware of the honey on the blade of a sword!
all this caring for choni and tibetans is fake.
i feel betrayed.
I was just going along with their labelling. It is so pathetic. I agree with Tsering Shakya. I see Tibet as it saw itself-as an independent nation at the time of interference by China. What I do not believe in is distorting the truth to add weight to this cause. When websites like TibetTruth and the likes make fun of Tibetans performing, ridicule tourists, slander NGOs and so on, they deny Tibetans their choices. I am sure when I get around to publishing my research that the same people that criticised Choni will get on their righteous bandwagon and ridicule my informants, laugh at their Tibetan dress, accuse me of misrepresenting or taking advantage. I undertook research in Tibet to demonstrate the variety in the Tibetan world. My informants were surprised and felt very proud in sharing their culture. Shallow people will always do this. They are missing the point, missing the people-the Tibetans in Tibet. I am not a Chinese apologist, I am also not a Tibetan apologist. I believe in telling it as it is-or as I see or feel it to be. I was a student of Zen Buddhism so I wrote haiku. This was not self indulgence, this is practice in faith. My relationship with Tibet is not the same as the Jeffs, Hughs and Christofs. I have a multi leveled relationship with Tibet. My relationship is on a professional level through my research, on a spiritual level with Tibet’s landscape, on a very person level as a female in a culture that is male dominated socially and religiously, as a mother with a children of both Han and Tibetan fathers. I will not stand by and let people like Jeff, Hugh and their apologisers insult Tibetan people that choose not to lose their lives or risk imprisonment in the name of Ranzen. I have chosen to speak out at great risk to my personal safety and the safety and future of my children. I will not stand by and allow people to insult Tibetans in Tibet by implying that Tibetan culture is dead, that the language is becoming extinct, that it is rare to see a Tibetan in a job, that Tibetan people beg everywhere, that Tibetan people are being exploited, that Tibetan women have no choice but to turn to prostitution and the rest of this rubbish that is being spread around the media and the internet. It insults Tibetans in Tibet, they have no way of speaking out. The pro-Tibet supporters only want to concentrate on the horrible stories they can gather up and circulate. This is a complete disgrace.
Jode H
Thanks you so much for you support Tibet cause and specially cares about Tibetans in Tibet.
For the last 50 years We Tibetan are waiting for HH’s return and prayed so much for such a day to arrive unfortunately it looks like still a long way to go.
People be killed, culture distoryed, thousands in prisons, everyone is so scare for thier lives, nobody knows when they will be killed or arrested.
people sacrificed so much,people still out in free country using thier few english words they learnt disrespect each other and critisize Exile government and Dalai Lama’s leadership some people say HH sold Tibet to China.
I really have no clue what these people think about. To me these people only learnt some words from books but absolutely no clue how powerful China is now and what Tibetans are experincing in Tibet day to day life.
some body talks aboutfight Rangzen in next life if it not acheived this life.It is so childish and has zero concept what situation, or changeability taking place in Tibet right now. in past 50 years China sent almost 8 to 9 million Chinese aross Tibet with name of reform and help. wherever was empty land there is Chinese city and towns now, more than half of land are already occupied by Chinese newly moved from China. City and towns aross Tibet nobody speak pure Tibetan except normadic area.
there are so many older Tibetan are so worrying about all these deteriorations taking place right now.
A lot of people kind of waiting for exile government or HH do something to protect them. abviously we have people pull back and critisize government and HH’s approuchable decision for both China and Tibet.
At this point I can’t say I am right or you are wrong but I am so concerning people be killed everday, no freedom speak and move around.
China doesn’t want people in Exile to return, because they are already over populated country. they have not place to put all these people. China doesn’t want HH’s return to Tibet because they think that it doesn’t make any defferent or better in China and they fear that one day people may rise up if HH return to Tibet.
they don’t want those problems, these are basic reasons China doesn’t want to talk to us sincerely.
It all come down to us if we want push china to talk or not. if we want protect our culture and people or restore of reedom for the people in Tibet. Or keep reciting same thing we did for the past 50 years.
It’s all up to us.
“I have chosen to speak out at great risk to my personal safety and the safety and future of my children.”
WHAT RISK? RISK FROM WHOM?
I AM SURE CHINA WILL GIVE YOU A HUGE PAT ON THE BACK FOR YOUR LOYAL SERVICE TO THEM.
WE TIBETANS ARE VERY UNLIKELY TO COME AFTER YOU FOR CHURNING OUT YOUR BS.
“on a very person level as a female in a culture that is male dominated socially and religiously, as a mother with a children of both Han and Tibetan fathers”
ARE U TRYING TO BE JUST TO BOTH TIBETANS AND CHINESE JUST BECAUSE A TIBETAN AND A CHINESE FATHERED YOUR CHILDREN?
AREN’T YOU LOOSING THE SCOPE HERE?
WE ARE DISCUSSING THE PLIGHT OF A NATION THAT IS ROBBED BY A FOREING COUNTRY. THIS IS NOT ABOUT TRYING TO BE IMPARTIAL TO THE FATHERS OF YOUR VARIOUS CHILDREN
“Jeff, Hugh and their apologisers insult Tibetan people that choose not to lose their lives or risk imprisonment in the name of Ranzen”
I AM A REGULAR VISITOR TO THIS BLOG. I HAVE NEVER SEEN JEFF OR HIGH OR CHRISTOFF INSULT ANY TIBETAN (PRO-RANGZEN OR OTHERWISE) ON THIS BLOG
“I will not stand by and allow people to insult Tibetans in Tibet by implying that Tibetan culture is dead, that the language is becoming extinct, that it is rare to see a Tibetan in a job, that Tibetan people beg everywhere, that Tibetan people are being exploited, that Tibetan women have no choice but to turn to prostitution and the rest of this rubbish that is being spread around the media and the internet”
IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE OR IF YOU HAVE PROOF TO THE CONTRARY, WHY DON’T YOU WRITE ABOUT IT WITH A LEVEL HEAD? I THINK YOU NEED TO COOL DOWN BEFORE YOU PUT YOUR THOUGHTS TO THE PAPER THOUGH.
“The pro-Tibet supporters only want to concentrate on the horrible stories they can gather up and circulate”
IF PRO-TIBET SUPPORTERS DID NOT EXPOSE THESE ATROCITIES, DO YOU THINK CHINA WIL DO THAT?
WILL YOU WRITE ABOUT IT? WHO WILL SPEAK UP FOR THOSE WHO UNDERGO THESE ATROCITES?
LADY, I THINK YOU SHOULD COOL DOWN A BIT, MAY BE DO SOME ZEN MEDITATION.
TCL
This Jodie person has called Kundun, our Government, and Tibetan people liar!
She says
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/tibet-another-side-to-the-story/
that:
“I will also not stand by and let the Dalai Lama, Tibetan Govt. in India, Tibetan exiles and pro-Tibeters lie about Tibet and the real situation.”
She also attack Kundun again
“My first big shock (after more than a decade of seeing this guy as my guru) was the Dalai Lama is not who he portrays himself to be through his globe trotting about promoting peace and compassion”
You pretend to be a supporter, but show your red color, Tibetan have enough difficulty and don’t need people like you spreading Chinese poison. You are a running dog for Beijing and are on Jamyang la site to tell their lie.
Shame on you!
We are in a way playing roles of onlookers, assumptionists, occasional sympathizers and talking the talks and not walking the walks.
However, this doesn’t mean we can’t express our thoughts and feelings on Tibetan issues.
I personally swing my thoughts back and forth between immediate remedy for Tibet’s pains and seeking a long term wellbeing .
When I thought of how my people are being insulted and mistreated, how our culture is being raped, how our mountains and forests being vacated and filled some of them with wastes of nuclear and other harmful wastes, how our rivers and lakes being poisoned , and our people’s desire for the return of our beloved leader to homeland is burning , I can’t help but wanted the remedies happen now and Today.
But when giving ponderings on how Chinese are racist and Han eccentric, and their views on our people are more or less similar to some of the racist way practices of eugenics in first part of the 20 century in some countries promoted by crooked viewed peoples and policy makers , that some groups of races are backward, lazy and not good born. I personally don’t wish to share same roofs with such wronged viewed peoples unless a fundamental correction is being made..
Tsultrim…Choni?
Tibetans are horribly gullible, sometimes to their detriment. Put this in bigger context, this is one of the roots why we lost our country.
All those you say in comment 100 that exist in Tibet, are the ones miss chameleon Jodie has made her life mission to dispute, e.g. you said Tibetan language is disappearing in Tibet due to influx of chinese, older people are worried about it. Jodie goes everywhere, wherever she can, and tells this is nothing but crap cooked up by Free Tibet campaign people and TGIE. She doesn’t stop there. Equipped with her CCP leadership like cunningness or Melvyn Goldstein’s, or she may have emulated from them, she masquerades her rebuttal in a way when her points reach across the table, it drops like she “cares” for Tibetan people – Oh, it’s “insulting” to Tibetan people when you say Tibetan culture is dying in Tibet, and I won’t allow anyone to make mockery of their feelings! My butt.
And then there’s fertile ground comprised of people like Tsultrim or Choni in our community who are so dumb they dont see her sweet poison and think, “oh, here comes our savior in shinning armour, she’s so caring, thank you so much”! Pathetic!
I am sure Jodie gets paid plenty to do whatever it is her work is, inside Tibet – what is it. anthropology? Political science? She trumpets China’s party line cause that’s the only way to get a visa and a grant!!! Big surprise!!
This capitulation to China’s totalitarian occupation of Tibet and wanton assaults on Tibetan culture is a common feature of researchers who want visas and funding.
How about sponsoring a child at TCV school, a “sarjorpa”, a new arrival, 5 or 6 years old, with no parents, no family, nothing but TCV, to demonstrate a sensitivity to the crises afflicting Tibetan children under the Chinese occupation, instead of lecturing Tibetans about the benefits of being a Chinese colony?
That should be the price of admission to this movement.
In a political struggle you can’t be friends with everybody and the people who attack you define what it is you are fighting for.
CHINA OUT OF TIBET
Jodie,
BTW, did you say you are doing or did “research” in Tibet?
Well….given the evidences of your anti Pro Tibet views and bashing of His Holiness and TGIE…and yea presenting China’s presence in Tibet in positive light that are surfacing now, and which you have also proved beyond reasonable doubt here, it’s not speculation but rather a logical conclusion to say that your “research” could be nothing but conspiracy theory, to show Tibetans are wrong and Chinese are right.
Actually it goes beyond that. How can one trust the credibility of research when the researcher herself is highly short on integrity and moral fronts. You said you would sing your country’s national anthem only when you are out of your mind! You said your country, Australia, disgusts you so much you dont mind selling it! And then…you have two children – one by Tibetan man and other by Chinese…and who knows which nationality is next in the line of fatherhood. People have to be stupid to take you seriously.
Actually, we are quite familiar with the kind of “research” you do. It’s like the research where ‘researchers’ collaborate with fast food industries to show to the public that eating french fries and burgers are healthy, or Tobacco companies paying doctors to tell the people that cigarette smoking is not addictive. It’s the same old shittt.
Well…Jodie, whatever is motivating you to make complete fool of yourself, or whoever is behind it, I just hope that he/she or it is compensating you handsomely.
Free Tibet
Nazi China out of Tibet now!
Thanks Maura#105,waht a heartwarming!
Marked in double apostrophes, for the sake of getting even clearer and vivid picture, it’s original term Sarjorpa is being pronounced correctly and rightly as it sounds in it’s original Tibetan alphabets and translatedinto English language as correctly as it should be, and is someone with no parents, no family, hungry and cold, and is being infectious with crisis, can be found at TCV or somewhere in Dharamsala.
What a righted view and fair tough on the term and its implications.
Here, I must agree with Tibetan Mastiff. Maura wasn’t very tactful on this one, especially when this despised labelling for new comers has already given rise here to much animosity and acrimony…
HEY CHRISTOPHE I was making a point here, that technically speaking, the “new arrival” or “sarjorpa” is most commonly a refugee child, without family, too often traumatized and frostbitten from the flight to India.
Why would any mother or father take such desperate measures for their children, the ultimate sacrifice of sending your child far away for education, liberty, if conditions under the Chinese occupation had not forced this upon the family? Whatever other connotations are summoned are another matter; the tragic human failure of the Chinese state is exposed again and again by the travails of the refugee passage from Tibet.
Thank God some people can still get out, despite massive Chinese troop mobilization along the Nepal border and the assault upon Nepal by the Maoists and their backers in Beijing.
We will never know how many Tibetans have died on the way to India in the past 50 years
FREE TIBET NOW!
Tibetan new arrivals in India absolutely didn’t like to be labelled and called as sarjorpas, as it carries tons of negative meanings and prejudices.
In 80s new arrivals were mocked at and ridiculed for riding bicycles,then we’re demonized as man killers and used a horrificized image of us to control wild babies at homes of Tibetan villages in India, not only that, an another name calling to new arrivals is Kachas in Hindi, whatever it’s implications, i think it’s meaning is raw or eurippen,
people often tell they have high respects to Tibetans inside Tibet, I double such claims as we see one of the above contributers perisits on that ours is but sarjopas although we humbly let him and his kind know that we don’t like the name as Native American Indians dont like to be called Indies or African Americans hated to be called Niggers or Negro by others.
Very valid concerns, however my reading of Maura’s comment was that the term appeared to be employed innocently. I’m confident that like all true supporters of Tibet Maura holds Tibetans who have escaped Chinese occupied Tibet in high regard and would not condone any labelling of individuals. Nor should we forget more appropriate targets for our attention, namely those, who though appearing as firm friends of Tibet, barely conceal pro-Chinese sympathies or are engaged in a stealthy disortion of the facts.
THANKS JEFF, I understand that the terminology now carries many complicated connotations amongst Tibetans. What matters to me, is that the refugee experience exposes China’s failures in Tibet, that people still risk life and limb to escape from Tibet is an indictment of Chinese rule.
And will we ever know how many Tibetans have died, been captured or turned back in flight? It is probably equal to the number of those who survived the journey.
I am disgusted by America’s craven appeasement of China’s totalitarian dictatorship. America spent billions to defeat communism is the Soviet Bloc, whilst spending billions to prop up the Chinese Communist Party. There is virtually no discussion or examination of US China policy in this country. What a spectacular victory for the CCP.
How and when will this every change, I wonder…
FREE TIBET NOW!
I have not given the Tibetan government enough credit. Initially, I was perplexed at the support for compromise with China (i.e. taking a stance beside the same men who brutalized, raped and murdered their own people). I struggled with understanding why TGIE would do this. I have now come to a reasonable conclusion. The members of TGIE are all saints. It’s more reasonable than it appears.
Yes, indeed. For no ordinary man would offer a compromise to the kind of men who rape his mother, destroy his monastery, and slaughter his grandparents. Only a saint could forgive this!
Only a saint could possess faith so strong that, even after 50 years of deteriorating conditions enforced by occupying forces, he would continue to believe that a mysterious spiritual power would restore his enemies to humanity, reason, and cooperation. Only a saint!
Only a saint would forgive how they tore our your people’s tongues with iron hooks, just for saying the name of Kundun. Only a saint would forget how they penetrated Tibetan bodies and minds with their cattle prods of brutality and derision. Only a saint would believe such “people,” for lack of a better word let us call them humans, are even capable of reform, insight, or goodness. Yes, only a saint.
Therefore, I would like to congratulate all the saints in this forum, and in TGIE itself. We live amongst great bodhisattvas, indeed.
It’s either that, or a collection of naive and foolish jesters.
Since I’m no saint, the only thing that stirs my heart these days is a memory….of quite a few Tibetans who gave their life’s blood in a bitter battle for their birthright. Rangzen.
Amazing post Sharma, I am heartbroken reading it, you are right….
sharmapatel#113,
No one is holding you back I hope, if you don’t like the way it is run by TGIE, get elected, go and change the policy.
Or how about propose a viable strategy for achieving Rangzen, and post here for discussion?
Ama shenang Tsaloe. Nobody told me you guys had been busy! Now will have to read tomorrow since I have to relinquish the computer to higher authority.
Jodie Hawthorne,
You are Australian are you? So am I.
Maybe you can meet me in Melbourne some time. I might be able to introduce you to some of the more recent refugee arrivals from Tibet and you can see their torture scars for yourself. That experience might give you pause to think.
Here are the meagre fruits of my efforts to find out a bit more about Jodie Hawthorne and what might make her tick:
http://www.pardalote.com.au/authors/hawthornej/
http://www.haikuoz.org/2007/01/an_interview_with_jodie_hawtho.html
Jamyang La:
I am waiting for your take on recent passing of Ngabo. I know he is controversial figure, but I am unable to make up my mind as to whether he is traitor, as described by Vijay Kranti, or not. All my reads on him so far points me to his opportunistic traits that puts his vested interest well above everything else. Am I far off to say that he epitomized the worst of Bod Kudrak? If you could dig into your vast knowledge and pull up something that may shed light on his 99 years of existence in relation to us Tibetan. I know school textbooks in India have left out some part of our dark history just like Japanese schools are doing.
Thanks
BILLK, I have never ever denied the atrocities of the Chinese Government, nor do I endorse them. You are welcome to e-mail me if you would like to discuss the matter. Don’t put words into my mouth. I know where I stand on this issue and it isn’t where you are suggesting.
deqenmoon@yahoo.com.au
ngapo..go to hell! and rot there!
what’s so disappointing is he didn’t put up a single fight however slim the likelihood of a victory. that’s the job of a freaking general. then he voluntarily became a pawn. what made tadra appoint him to replace lhalu? tsarong would have done a better job. i would have done a better job! anyway how different is our present day leaders from him atleast in..principle? with 60 years of autonomy, independence, association, genuine autonomy, meaningful autonomy, middle way, minimal autonomy, middle path, nominal autonomy. communist phuntsok wangyal will follow him soon! and both bejing and dhasa will once again be mourning deeply for losing another hero–a bridge between chinks and tibs! should the test of fire decide what’s gold then to me all of them are traitors. no rationalization here please. what’s rightfully ours is repeatedly called another extreme! by our own! how unfortunate! chinese invasion and occupation of tibet is no doubt the extremest of all the extremes that’s in the world.
no to choesisungdrel muddle way regime!
yes to secular bi-party democracy for independence!
“Tibet is not some “world soul,” save for those who have the leisure to fantasize along such lines.” Kya line mara! Elliot.
If we hold on to true friends of Tibet like Elliiot Sperling who knows Tibetan history more than most of us ourselves do we will benefit greatly.
By the way, being a sarjorwa myself with half my family in Tibet, my heart has always longed for Rangzen. Those of you have given up on that what are you waiting for? You already have an independent nation of China.
By the way, isn’t Choni usually a name given to Tibetan nuns? My point is if you are a real Tibetan you won’t assume a person with the name “choni” to be Tibetan. I am talking about you Kayb Amdo. Did you mean to call yourself Kyab Amdo by any chance?
Jodie Hawthorne
It is better to have debates in a public space, as it were, than get caught up in an endless round of emails.
If you are fully aware of the ongoing atrocities of China’s occupation of Tibet, then I find it difficult to understand why you seem to have both rangzen supports and umey lam supporters in your sights but seem rather keen on the likes of Michael Parenti.
BTW: There are many instructive comparisons to be made between the white invasion of Australia from 1788 onwards and China’s invasion of Tibet from 1950 onwards, including what is happening right now. Perhaps Jamyang-la could do this some time.
However, there is one thing that should be said right now. The white invasion of Australia began when opposition to colonialism was in its infancy, whereas China invaded Tibet when the rest of the world was beginning the long and painful process of decolonizing.
BILLK,
Parenti used various independent references and no Chinese sources for his piece. My comments were based on Parenti’s full article which ends in a critique of China. It is important to see Tibet how it was the past and it is just as important to see the Tibetan Exile Government and the Dalai Lama as what they are. I have seen many people on this site make critical comments about the Dalai Lama and nobody has a problem with it.
Can I ask you, Do you stand for our national anthem and do you celebrate Australia Day?
Would you lay your life on the line in front of the PLA for Rangzen?
How can you know that all Tibetans want independence? I certainly know many that do, many that don’t and many that are undecided. Almost all of this group would not be willing to lose their lives for Rangzen. That is why I wrote the comment above.
Why is it that Free-Tibet activists feel they have the right tell others that they should not travel in Tibet, should not undertake research there, should not do NGO work in Tibet, should not write poetry about it and so on?
Tibetans in Tibet have done a great job of protecting their culture and language. For well-meaning? outsiders to insult the Tibetans in Tibet and attempt to deny them of any outside assistance demonstrates the hypocrisy of this campaign.
Tibetan Buddhism vs Chinese heathenism as a tool in the free-Tibet campaign is highly questionable as is the completely outdated Han chauvinism line that so many “experts” like to use.
I recognise that many Tibetans have suffered and are suffering. At the same time I recognise that all Tibetans do not “live in fear.
What is the best way forward for Tibetans?
Jodie Hawthorne
1. Parenti basically rehashes a long line of fanatical western Maoists. Jamyang Norbu has responded well on this site with the post “Running dog propagandists.” Joshua Schrei has also written an incisive piece “the far left and Tibet.”
2. Read critical comments about His Holiness the Dalai Lama on this site carefully. They are made in the context of respect for His Holiness but profound disagreement about the Middle Way policy. They bear no resemblance to the rubbish spouted by the likes of Parenti.
3. When in public in any country I stand for the national anthem, whether I agree with all the policies of its government or not. Australia Day is a public holiday and I usually go and have a good time in the great outdoors. Like most Australians, I’m not a hand on heart patriot.
4. I’m not offering to lay my life on the line for any cause. Nobody is asking me to.
However, when people choose to lay their lives on the line in the cause of resisting oppression, I freely acknowledge that they are better than me, rather than seeking to belittle their sacrifice and their bravery.
5. I do not believe that all Tibetans want independence. I firmly believe that only a tiny percentage of Tibetans are happy with being occupied by China and having their culture subject to a slow death by strangulation, along with occasional outbreaks of shocking violence by the Chinese “security” apparatuses.
BTW: In case you haven’t worked it out, the likes of Parenti and Goldstein aren’t umey lam supporters, they are supporters of the staus quo in Tibet.
6. Most Free Tibet activists argue that if you are going to travel to Tibet, you need to be careful. That’s not the same as arguing for a boycott of travel to Tibet. Actually, it’s China that is working very hard to restrict travel to Tibet. China also works hard to ensure that only docile or pro-China academics get in to do their research.
7. Tibetans have worked very hard to preserve their culture and have indeed achieved amazing things.They have done it in the face of Chinese efforts to destroy their culture and those efforts are ongoing.
8. Enough Tibetans live in fear to make the status quo intolerable.
Warren Smith’s “China’s Tibet: Autonomy or Assimilation?” is also very informative about the “political pilgrims” who went to Tibet under the watchful eye of their CCP heroes. They provide many of the “independent references” that people like Tom Grunfeld and Michael Parenti cite in the cause of portraying “old Tibet” as barbaric and China’s occupation as civilizing. There isn’t a huge audience for this stuff in the west any more but the fenqing love it, as do many of their elders. Promoting apologists of China’s occupation of Tibet means encouraging many Chinesze in their delusions about Tibet.
BTW: Melbourne has hundreds of thousands of Chinese speakers, including a minority of mainland Chinese who are fiercely loyal to the Party. There are also some opportunists, who know courting the Party is good for business. I have no shortage of direct experience of these people and what they believe.
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=24886&article=Is+saying+the+F+word+worse+than+destroying+a+culture%3f&t=1&c=4
Debating #122,
I personally understood Choni as a place name, added prior to Tsultrim Gyatso’s name such as in “Lithang Athar Norbu”, “Baba Phuntsok Wangyal”, etc. Choni (or Chone, ཅོ་ནེ་ / 卓尼 ) is a place nowadays under Gansu jusrisdiction, located in far east Amdo and first documented in English by the scholar Joseph Francis Rock (1884–1962).
In Buddhism, there’s no Choni but “Choenyi” or “Chönyi” (ཆོས་ཉིད་ / Sanskrit “dharmatā”), and it means “suchness, or the true nature of reality” (rigpawiki.org).
To JH,
Your Haiku of Barley is indeed beautiful, however this doesn’t mean you are not advocating for PRC’s propaganda machine.
If you really love Tibet and her people, be sure where you stand, Miheal Parenti is absolutely ill minded and has developed wrong views about Tibet and her century old traditions.
I’ll make sure to read your Haikus.
Choni or Coni was a power Tibetan kingdom in Amdo, Kings of Choni were pro-Buddhist and Coni Tengyur is very famous indeed, also Coni people were fierceful homeland guards of Tibetan frontiers historically , they wared against welarmed army of Qing Dynasty in a life and death battles in the past.
Correction To #128,
be sure to know where you stand
Choni Tsemon Lingpa acted as regent for one of the Dalai Lamas for the Gaden Phodrang, and Choni is a land of Budhist scholars as well, several of them held GadenTripa thrones and Choni Drakpa Shedrup’s commentary on Diamond Cutter Sutra is indeed famous amongst Tibetan Buddhist scholars all over Tibet and beyond.
Thanks Christophe # 127, for enlightening me on that. I had no clue it is the name of a place in Tibet. It makes sense then.
I meant to imply it’s a feminine name (Chonyi as you correctly pronounce) but instead I typed “Tibetan” and felt too disgusted with my typos to post another one.
Thanks to Tibetan Mstiff too.
Debating is handle for another forum. Don’t know why these fingers put it here!!
Does Kunchok’s # 102 mean that the woman called BRonte who is demonizing HH is the same one as Jodie Hawthorne? I am thinking two are different people because from her tone there is no mistaking that the Bronte woman is a mouthpeice for CCP. I am sure HH is criticized by his own family members sometimes, but no true Tibetan or a person who claims to like the Tibetan people will demonize him.
Dawa,
Regarding comment #102 and the link to Bronte’s blog, Jodie is only a commentator. See the end of the post.
Thanks Christophe. This woman is sick. How can she dismiss everything the exile Tibetans say just because she spent a little time in TIbet. Does she know huge chunk of the exile community consists of recent escapees from Tibet? How many times do I have to remind these self serving people that thousands and thousands of us escape Tibet in dangerous conditions because we are not allowed basic human rights there. Right to sing and dance and make money are not the only aspects of human rights.
She might have befriended few people who benefited from the Chinese occupation but that doesn’t mean Tibet is not illegally occupied by foreigners. And vast majority of Tibetans are suffering injustice. These self serving cynics, the matter of whose spine is so flimsy that it can be blown away by the strength of their own fart, are no friends of Tibetans. When they realize obtaining visa to China and it’s occupied territories is at stake, they will contort their conscience every which way to accomodate murder and atrocities.
Fine. I am a classic Chinese apologist. I know nothing about Tibet or China or the peoples and cultures. I know nothing of the exile diaspora. I am a fool who has been led down the garden path(or my own misguided path). Most importantly, this issue is none of my business and in future I will stay out of it. I have more important things to do with my time than debate Tibet. I wish you all the best. Jodie
@JH
“Almost all of this group would not be willing to lose their lives for Rangzen.”
Not true, as observed by the thousands demonstrating across Tibet in 2008 and 2009, at risk to their lives. If you don’t believe me that they were risking their lives, consider this: being sent to jail in China, regardless of ethnicity, leaves you no guarantee of returning alive. You have zero rights. Therefore risking arrest = risking life. The Chinese government itself admitted to several thousand arrests. Multiply that by a reality factor, and what you get is many thousands of Tibetans–schoolteachers, nomads, clergy, shop owners, schoolkids, grandparents and more–who proved they are willing to risk their lives as recently as within the past two years. And sadly, who actually did risk and lose their lives.
“Why is it that Free-Tibet activists feel they have the right tell others that they should not travel in Tibet…”
You may be referring to a specific incident, however when I talk to people they constantly encourage everyone to go to Tibet. A Tibetan man told me within the past few months to please go to Tibet if I have any chance at all, and to take pictures so people outside can know what’s happening. I have never personally heard any pro-Tibet person say “don’t go to Tibet” except for times when it was unusually dangerous to do so.
“Tibetans in Tibet have done a great job of protecting their culture and language.”
Yes, for example the “motorcycle schools” (reminds me of the Irish “hedge schools” under English occupation) which are necessary because in many areas Tibetan kids are NOT being taught Tibetan literacy. Ask any person who actually works in Tibet; the “Tibetan language class” is the first to be cut from any curriculum if it even exists there in the first place.
In many areas parents “protect the Tibetan language” by not sending their kids to school specifically because they know Tibetan is given lip service only. So the kids end up not getting any schooling at all.
As for Parenti “not using Chinese sources,” that is completely incorrect. Since he uses practically no original sources himself, and relies on others’ writings, his “sources” are their sources, and Melvyn Goldstein makes extensive use of Chinese sources.
Thanks Jodie, I hope you will truly stay away from talking about Tibet, and by this, I mean not just here but anywhere – online or offline where you could go using your real name Jodie, or fake ones, say, molly or polly, etc. Because the wound that Chinese has inflicted upon us is far deeper deeper than you can imagine. If handful of chinese ass licker Tibetans or politically obliviously Tibetans in Tibet support status quo, that doesn’t mean you are to support them at the cost of hurting other Tibetans who dont support, calling their opposition with all those names you have and demonizing them. This shows not just your immaturity and lack of intelligence, but its insult to us as a whole. Tibet requires and demand and deserves an observer who can not only see whats going on the surface but can see deep within and beyond…with a mind thats free of any bias, self-interest or politics etc. If i were you, a third party with no affiliation (as you claim), I would support Tibetans who demand total independence as much atleast. Tibet is their country, China invaded it, how can you say ‘you are wrong’ to them???? On what ground???? And irrespective of what your “samples” in Tibet say, there are many Tibetans inside Tibet who want Independence. We saw that in 2008, unless you had your tv turned off that year.
Anyway i appreciate your decision. His Holiness often quotes one of the tenets of buddhism wherever he gives teaching – if you can’t help others atleast refrain from hurting them. Your shutting up would do exactly that. Thanks!
Free Tibet!
i suppose that what always strikes me as curious about us humans is that we can so often get sucked into the emperor’s new clothes mind set, or the not mentioning the elephant in the middle of the room effort. i cannot pretend to know anything really about the tibetan story other than i am human and have observed other humans. i was born and raised in a country that was praised, and still is by some, for having written a constitution that said “all men are created equal” then went on to build their empire with slave labor and genocide. and land appropriations of the most unjust kind. since then the strength of the economy has relied on creating war, exploiting those who come seeking respite from their own country’s despotic gov.(many of which have been controlled by the gov. where they seek refuge) and of course the mechanism of distraction through consumerism and entertainment. more or less a hundred years after the signing of the constitution the issue of slavery was brought up as a secondary issue to keeping the union from breaking up. we all know the story, blah blah blah, after the war white men, many of whom were slave owners make a monument to other white men and everyone is thrilled and proud. there are some eloquent words carved in marble, and they can move hearts, yet never is there mention of the fact that it took 100 years to just get to the point of recognizing slaves as human, so busy they are patting one another on the backs. there is no monument to all the slaves that endured the most unimaginable suffering while building the nation these white men have been bragging about. and still it took nearly another 100 years of torture and death to begrudgingly give minimal rights to those who gave their lives to building the empire. the most insane part is that this country has been looked up to by the rest of the world as a democracy. how can words be used so loosely? a democracy does not depend on the color of the skin, or gender, or religious beliefs. and how is it that a country that knows so little of democracy can do anything to satisfy its insatiable greed often using the love of democracy and freedom as justification? and what kind of meaning does it have when this country’s unelected president honors the leader of a politically unrecognized ancient country with a medal of honor for maintaining non violent response in the face of extraordinary atrocities to the people of his country? For the recipient of the medal has been dealing with the cultural (and physical) genocide that so resembles the past actions of those who offer this honor. how can the leader of such a country stand on moral high ground in defense of tibet to the chinese? my first impression of the tibetan situation was immediate and hit hard. i had seen it throughout my life, at home, school, work, among friends, the dynamic is the same. it is simply a question of integrity. and it is the human tragedy that so little interest has been placed in cultivating and/or maintaining integrity. those who risk their lives in order to maintain their integrity are few, but extremely powerful, for they have truly understood “better dead than a lie”. they know that by turning their back on what their hearts tell them they can no longer live in peace so what alternative is there? often times after risking their lives and then living in relative safety, they are still haunted with the fact that the situation they left behind is not settled and they can not rest until everyone is free from such horrors. this is what being human is about. how is it that we are capable of sleeping soundly knowing our neighbor has not had a meal that day? or many days? how is it that we can act so proud of accomplishments when billions live in conditions that most northern hemisphere countries don’t experience, yet all the while they are crying “we’re having a recession! we are in crisis!” how is it possible that we as a species have come to such complete disassociation with one another? by using ideas such as saints we give ourselves the excuse of not having the potential to sit face to face with those who have severely mistreated us, both physically and psychologically, and being willing to put genuine effort into building trust in order to go forward with dignity and respect. we all know that the master is as much slave as the slave. what are the alternatives? we are human, which includes the possibility of empathy, but how many of us are capable of taking empathy all the way to our own discomfort in order to maintain the integrity of our empathy? To be able to enter into every situation as HHDL says, keeping in mind that everyone just wants to be happy and not suffer, that we are the same on that ground, allows for an open mind and open heart. i remember when i read in one of the TGIE booklets a quote from the chinese leader at the time. he said basically “we want to help the people in tibet get as rich as possible as quick as possible because we believe that is what is best”. my heart sank. it was so fundamentally opposite, it was so americana, it was so condescending, so extraordinarily imposing, self assured, i just managed to make it to the toilet to vomit. too close to home, the whole thing. all this to say, we are all in quite a mess! and there are children to cloth and feed and educate in india, africa, south america, united states, europe, basically everywhere, so let’s get on with it as best we can so they will not repeat our histories. may we all have the interest to cultivate the strength it takes to maintain integrity at all costs.
So, La Larga, what is really your point here (#139?) I see that the human condition moves you deeply, but what do you want people to do about it with regard to Tibet (which is what J. Norbu’s website is about?)
Yes, we are “all in quite a mess,” and there are children to feed, clothe and educate all over the world, but the Tibetan situation is unique in its urgency. The Chinese government has undertaken, as a matter of explicit policy, to eradicate the Tibetan national identity. China is implementing its policy day by day as it floods Tibet with Chinese immigrants while forcing linguistic and cultural assimilation on Tibetans who wish to seek education and good jobs. If anything is to be done about this, there is a time limit. It can’t wait until everyone becomes like HH Dalai Lama and can “enter into every situation…keeping in mind that everyone just wants to be happy and not suffer…”
Yes, in the past the U.S. committed similar crimes against the native Americans, and yes, George W. Bush was an unelected President (and maybe the worst President ever.) So does this mean it would have been better if he had NOT presented HHDL with the Congressional Medal (which is bestowed by the Congress, incidentally; the President just hands it to the recipient?) If that isn’t what you think, then why do you bring the matter up? If that is what you think, then why do you think so? (After all, Pres. Obama recently declined to meet with HH Dalai Lama, and the Chinese response was to execute, within a few days of HH’s visit to Washington, several Tibetan participants in the 2008 uprising – should Bush have behaved with Obama’s disengagement?)
And yes, I believe His Holiness the Dalai Lama is an exemplary human being, in addition to serving as the personification of the Tibetan nation and of the Bodhisattva Chenrezig. (And apparently Jamyang Norbu believes similarly, as you will find a prayer for His Holiness’ long life at the bottom of this page.) And the Dalai Lama remains, for me personally, the only leader of international stature of whose sincerity and integrity I have no doubt. He towers above the other world “leaders” with whom he interacts. But it remains the unpleasant reality that more than twenty years of the “middle way” policy appears to have brought no progress, and the clock is ticking.
thank you dave for your clear expression, much more coherent than my own. i agree with all points made. not as an excuse but rather as just a detail, this is the first time i have participated in such format. after having read all the entries it perhaps would have been more considerate to wait before i started to express the onslaught of the overall insanity that spans human history. anyhow……. certainly there is an urgency, and certainly the situation only seems to be getting more dire. i have had some curious “what ifs” that popped into me about how Obama is engaging, but without being overly paranoid i would have to say that i don’t feel it would be of benefit to express those here in this format. some tibetan friends have expressed that these ideas are an interesting take. i do not know. my observations about the medal of honor were really just expressing the frustration of the theater, when an opportunity such as that one could have been used at least to openly speak to the past unjust actions on the part of the US gov. towards the native americans, african americans. i admit to having an enormous imagination for what is possible yet seemingly quite improbable to most.
i, like yourself, consider DL to be the only leader i have ever seen and heard and been in the presence of, that i fully trust. this i have considered the most precious gift of this life. i have never heard alternatives to the middle way really. i mean the practical steps. it seems that unless the international community comes together in action instead of just words and takes an unwavering stand against the chinese government’s policies on tibet there is little that the tibetans can do. this is where i go back to what i feel is the root. until enough people in this world feel more urgency in working towards a non violent coexistence than maintaining a psychological existence that disconnects them from the reality at hand, we will experience these situations. we know this.
it seems quite apparent that all systems that have been in place that do not serve the people as a global community and care for the earth must fall and be rebuilt by the willingness to assume the responsibility of self government. so what about tibet? i truly would so appreciate it if someone could tell me what the alternative is to the middle way .
Karmapa is passionate about supporting the middle path:
“I am very passionate about supporting the middle path that has been articulated by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. In His Holiness’s vision of this middle path, there is great benefit for the people of Tibet and also great benefit for the people of China.
If we follow the middle path, both the government of China and the people of Tibet will be benefited. This vision is something that about 90% of Tibetans support – the vast majority of Tibetans. I simply consider myself one of those Tibetans whose responsibility it is to further the cause of the people”
Here we go….
Who thinks Karmapa is wrong?
Who can say Karmapa is wrong becuase he is following middle path which HH’s found is the best way to protect people and culture?
This makes so much sense to me, and I truly think middle path is the best way to reunity both inside and outside.
I am not discourage anyone here but is how I feel and and I think we all should have second thoughts on any other options that we have now. Time is more important than any thing…
there are no country support Tibet’s independence but there are so many governments and groups supportors around the world support will support us to get there.
Ms. Dobriansky is a former under secretary of state for democracy and global affairs and special coordinator on Tibetan issues.
Wrote in Phayul: U.S. accepts that Tibet is part of the People’s Republic of China, for decades our country has supported Tibetan autonomy, especially in culture and religion.
she also said in her article:
The view that repression in Tibet would have negative consequences for China is shared by our European allies. As British Foreign Minister David Miliband has said: “Like every other EU member state and the United States, we regard Tibet as part of the People’s Republic of China. Our interest is in long-term stability, which can only be achieved through respect for human rights and greater autonomy for the Tibetans.”
Once again, I am not telling you guys that because she said Tibet is part of China but becuase i truly believe in HH’s view and our Govrnment policy of middle path.
RE: David Miliband’s Comments
Please note these have been consistently misrepresented as some official change of UK policy. This misreportage has interesting beginnings that can be traced back to an article by Robert Barnett. See here for more:
http://tibettruth.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/britain-has-not-changed-its-policy-on-tibets-status/
RE: 142
Yes, The Dalai Lama, and Karmapa, in their infinite wisdom believes that the Middle Way Approach is the best way forward. I disagree.
Frankly I couldn’t care less about what all the politicians around the way say about the status of Tibet. Tomorrow it will change according to their self interest. As a Tibetan, for my self-interest I cannot agree to live under the Communist Party. It is that simple for me.
As a Buddhist I am sure you agree that the only thing that is permanent is change. So things will come to pass. Do not be disheartened and take a position from a place of weakness. People might call this being a realist but remember cynics and realists is the opposite of hope and they will never believe in anything beautiful like rangzen.
To each his own.
kyi hi hi!
Dear Tenzin la,
Spot on. I remember Lhasang Tsering saying pretty much the same thing at the conclusion of a lecture many years ago. I don’t recall the exact words. “As Buddhists we Tibetans are supposed to believe that everything is impermanent. Then why do we seem to believe that China’s domination of Tibet is a permanent thing.”
The problem is Chinese migration to Tibet and Tibetans migration to Nepal and India and ultimately, migration to the WEST!
NG
Dear Jamyang/Sir,
I am a journalist based in India. Open is a national current affairs weekly, headquartered in New Delhi. I am doing a short piece on Sherlock Holmes books set in India. I would like to ask you a couple of questions. Be grateful if you could spare the time to answer them.
Have you written any more books on Holmes? Do you plan to, if not?
When was Shadow Tibet published?
What attracted you to Holmes?
What would happen if Holmes applied his mind to the Tibet problem (this is a light-hearted question and I apologise if the frivolity upsets you)?
Thanking you in anticipation,
Sohini.
Hello New GenerationTB la
Listen, You wrote “The problem is Chinese migration to Tibet and Tibetans migration to Nepal and India and ultimately, migration to the WEST!”
I think you maybe Partially right but you forgot or you didn’t point out the real problems.
Why Millions of Chinese migrating to in Tibet?
1) Because china wants washed out Tibet from map.
2) Tibetans migrating or escaping from Tibet because they are not save. killed, murdered, arrested, jailed and panished because of national identity and abolutely has no rights to do any thing.
3) Tibetan families from India and Nepal migarting to West is totally different reason. Basically seeking for better life.
I am not saying go to west is wrong but these are the facts.
We all clearly know what China has been planning to do in Tibet. therefore, Time is very important, and we can’t wait for another 50 years washed out everything.
China Plan to send 2 to 3 million chinese migration to Tibetan every years to cover all the empty land that they can use. Think about that……After 50 years You rarely be able to find Tibetans amoung Chinese migrations.
Thus,we all needs come together and follow HH’s middle path and try to open dialogue for our people and culture. To save “Tibet” from China’s greedy.
Impermanent doesn’t mean it will get better
Impermanent doesn’t guarantee full Rangzen
Impermanent could mean from bad to worse and from worse to nothingness.
Impermanent I think wake us up now come together follow one path, not different direction.
Contradiction: “as a Buddhist”. If you believe that you are pure Buddhist, you should follow your root Guru, this is very basic concept on Tibetan Buddhism, and otherwise you are not Buddhist
Today’s Tibet
a raped girl in confinement
she’s only the witness
In heartland of Korkornor region
neighboring with Xiongnu and Chi’angs
fiercest my ancestors
roaring thunders of Yarlong lions
showering spears and arrows
made Tang foes run like foxes
Tibet was my pride
footprints in dust
in snow from village
calling me each night
mastiff of wildest
guardians of 4 seasons
Tibet’s most trusted
days in other’s yeard
blowing the Chang-thand wind
happiness born crippled
days in other’s yard
blowing the Chang-thang wind
happiness born crippled
choni tsultrim gyatso la, you have a very fascinating understanding of buddhism. I dont think even Buddha himself ever decreed that his students should blindly or unquestioningly follw him.
You have claimed earlier that you have Tibet’s interest i your heart. So I will respond to some of your opinions. Yes, impermanence doesnt mean things will definitely be better. It also doesnt mean it will get worse as you seem to have decided. Impermanence is about uncertainty. I would say looking at the situation that we have been for the past 50 yrs, things cant get much worse.
You seem to contend that we have to compromise or grovel more in front of teh present rulers of the Middle Kingdom to have any hope for dialogue. I dont think the Tibetans stand can stoop any further. It is not for us to convince the CHinese leadership of our sincerity. Lets not be either naive or incredibly obnoxious by thinking that we have some sort of knowledge that will open up the wisdom eye of the Beijing butchers. They are absolutely aware of the stake while we deal in this wishywashy compassion for our enemy, which for many, lets face it is a pretension not based on a real feelings.
Most Tibetans will be ready for a fistfight if someone on the street calls them ‘chinese’. Or feel offended when someone wishes ‘nyi hao’. I react exactly like the two above instances. This is one reason why I refuse to accept MWA as a solution. This is not about some nationalistic emotion. I am proud to be a Tibetan, period. And I want to remain so. And hopefully teach my kids to be proud and
Choni la, I am not here to convince you otherwise. You can put your faith in TGiE and MWA and I have my stand. All I want to request is not to make a stand from weakness. We are only strong as we let ourselves be.
kyi hi hi!
I’m pretty sure Tibetans burst into rage when called “luozang’by a chinese , but I’m not sure if we react the same when greeted by “ni hao’.
It is very important to discuss methods and strategies how to achieve Rangzen, the need to have Rangzen is not a dispute in every tibetan’s heart.
change of chinese regime , even it’s collapse does’t guarantee a Rangzen for Tibet.
Tibet,
a broke vessel
tormented in torrents
who can rescue thou
it’s “laozang’
Choni –
> Why Millions of Chinese migrating to in Tibet?
> 1) Because china wants washed out Tibet from map.
> 2) Tibetans migrating or escaping from Tibet
> because they are not save. killed, murdered,
> arrested, jailed and panished because of national
> identity and abolutely has no rights to do any
> thing.
Only a very few people worldwide have any idea of these facts even through they occasionally presented in the press.
The Tibetan people must make several demands on an international level. One step it must take to to vigorously present the case for genocide on an international level which it actually has not done. Of course in various media one can hear and read the words “Tibetan genocide” or words to the effect that China is committing genocide against the Tibetan people. However what this means is unclear to many. One of the issues with genocide, according to international law, is an attempt by one group to eliminate the culture of another group and/or appropriate a territory for themselves. This fact is not raised sufficiently by Tibetan people. Just making the facts known every few years is a sure path to extermination.
One of the ways out of this impasse is for the Tibetan people to demand representation at the UN and to use that position as one avenue to present the case of the Tibetan people. This will of course be denied immediately. Then Tibetans must keep pressing the case in the international media. Tibetans are not visible in the international media and are sort of too polite when they are visible and seem to too often be seen as taking no for an answer (even if that is not true that is one perception).
> One of the ways out of this impasse is for the
> Tibetan people to demand representation at the
> UN and to use that position as one avenue to
> present the case of the Tibetan people.
What I am suggesting here is working on securing Tibetan observer status in the various UN forums including the General Assembly. Observer status permits the entity to address the UN body that they are an observer of.
Thanks J.Norbu la for this poignant post with your eye-opening introduction for Professor Elliot Sperling’s address at the Tibetan Studies conference in Delhi. The gist here to be noted, as I see, is to take in seriously what the great mind spares for us as the central theme of the speech-writing: We are the ones to inherit this patrimony through our medium based learning, practical approaches and exploration to sustain the very pulsating throb of it–Tibet or its true identity. Yes, as it’s confirmed through the conference as to validate the beacon of the past, it is brought out more nakedly this time.
And the sudden twist ensued as the factual matter of Chinese misrepresentation of Tibet’s true image through planned distortion apparatus. How can we bear it ignorantly? The ‘R’ word is needy here to claim for our basic freedom, to show how it is deliberately altered and uprooted, but not to make way for a needless breach: Sarjorwa and Nyingjorwa/Shechakpa here in our transit camps.
Even for non-violent Middle Way Approach I don’t think it should be like, as it’s, waiting, to be ignorantly optimistic, meek and letting the other commands despite our heart-sickening generosity. There should be forecasting means, plans and the concrete laid alternatives to pave our way ahead. We really seem to live on begging only…..and pray!
Yes, one from Tibet must be more experienced almost in full way, but how it can be rated everyone from Tibet can be so… I mean how we can disappoint the burning senses of our brave past forerunners by attaching to shameful lip-service that purports to be caring for them but not to lose more as not to have such glorious impressions left by them any longer. Even if we can’t follow and take the same glorious path for now–but should be ready when the time given–, we shouldn’t at least let their glories blotted out with such lagging substitutes.
Yes, it is grounded to be concerned for Tibetans inside Tibet. But also see the still fragmented and disorganized quality of our unity against the monstrous giant that cost us a great deal. Yes, one’s loved ones were killed, as claimed voicing for Rangzen, but those killed in the recent uprisings in many parts of Tibet were killed for voicing for Human rights, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s safe return to Tibet… Does it make any difference?
The point I want to seriously ask is: As thoughtfully cited in one of the comments above our being unable to bring Tibet Issue on international level, it’s the case postulated by how we get up against the giant perpetrator. We lack this very sense of unbiased patriotism and racial dignity in true rooted sense; so should be learned much. I don’t mean everyone should die for it. But the question is if Tibetans in Tibet can stand up in synchronized mass unions at one time, can Chinese kill all of them? No, impossible as for the case of such possibility is so rare. The unrecorded and unnoticed killings happened as of the strength of mass union so small, fragmented and disorganized. If my own idea is right, what we can show the world if we can stand up so for a week but not only for a day.
Yes, we are at the crossroads!
I total agree with you. A change is needed urgently.
Re: Norsang
“Yes, one’s loved ones were killed, as claimed voicing for Rangzen, but those killed in the recent uprisings in many parts of Tibet were killed for voicing for Human rights, His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s safe return to Tibet… Does it make any difference?”
It matters if Tibetans in exile, and some supposed experts on Tibet, distort, conceal or misrepresent the reality that Tibetans inside Tibet rose to demand freedom and independence.
The truth about Tibet is well known. So there is only one question. How long will this madness go on ? One question demands one answer and the only answer to this madness is Rangzen. I talked recently and extensively to former prisoners from Drapchi and other hellholes. I asked them how they felt about the future. They said…all of them monks or lay people, that there is no chance of them ever sitting down with their tormentors at the same table.
They cannot and will not forget what was done to them.
In 2008 the people of Tibet sent the message to the chinese and us that they do not want to continue living like animals under the chinese.
It is up to every single one of us to rekindle this spirit and turn this Cause into a Movement.
Tibetans in Tibet deserve no less.
BRAVE TO JOE – put the torture stories out there at every turn, there are always more – when will the madness stop??
FREE TIBET NOW!
Speaking of independence, you must all have heard the bad news: “Envoys leave for China for ninth round of dialogue”…
My first reaction towards these four traitors was to quote Friedrich von Schiller (originally quoted many years ago by Jamyang Norbu) for the members of our local Tibetan community: “Against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.”
But I thought it wasn’t really fair. After all, these fours guys get their orders from someone, isn’t it? So I proposed to my community members to stop playing the ostrich game and to get our head out of the sand for a little quiz that I also want to share with you:
* * *
Eight-Anna Quiz: To whom His Holiness is listening when he sends his envoys to Beijing?
A. to his people, who regularly defy the Chinese might in occupied Tibet with national flags and slogans such as “Tibet is independent” and “China out of Tibet”, and who, anyway, don’t want to hear about any deal with China;
B. to the Tibetan delegates of the so-called Special Meeting of 2008 who, in their recommendations, strongly expressed views to “stop sending envoys and to pursue complete independence or self-determination if no result comes out in the near future”;
C. to one of his best Chinese friend, Yan Jiaqi, former political advisor of Zhao Ziyang, who, during the 2009 Sino-Tibetan Conference in Geneva, clearly advised the Dalai Lama that “‘representatives’ and ‘delegations’ should no longer be dispatched for further negotiations”;
D. to foreign governments that encourage him to go ahead with talks so they can do their business as usual with the world’s biggest human rights abuser;
E. your own response, because there must be at least one alternative to this nightmare…
Now, please, don’t tell me that His Holiness don’t need to listen to anyone as himself “knows everything”… It would be just too easy to prove the contrary.
D
Don’t they get tired of playing this same game over and over again? They will once again refused to listen to any proposal from our side and only adamantly talk about the status of H.H. That had never changed no matter how many times we go there. It is time to give them the ultimatum: Discuss in faith or we take back our initial offer and go back to Rangzen.
Bravo Christophe!
One question to Jamyang Norbula
Are your parents Aristocrats of Tibet? I saw the article that you were defending them. From your last name I can tell that your parents are.
China’s claim that “Old Tibet” was a feudal serfdom is fiction
Although, i don’t believe lots of things what China says but I am sure that Old Tibet was a feudal serfdom. You can find lots of information and video Clips on BBC,……etc. You are blatantly denying it. It just made you a person without any credibility.
One of the reason, we lost Tibet was those suckers “Tibet Aristocrats” and “Religious” Leader.
I think people are smart now. We are gonna fight China first, then we will close the door and fight those Aristocrats and Religious leaders.
Going back to our Eight-Anna Quiz of yesterday, the following article — and especially its source — offers some clues about the correct answer…
CTA: U.S. and Britain Hope For Positive Results from Tibet Talks
@Christophe, Snakes have a more developed sense of ethics and integrity than the US State Department and Foreign and Commmonwealth Office, both of which are implacably opposed to Tibet’s independence.
Dealing with china is like dealing with a reckless mischievous child. One moment he seems to be listening and the next you see him throwing tantrums. But he will never admit his mistakes let alone apologize for what he had done. The only way to control him is with a stick. Unfortunately, Tibetans only have carrots in their bag.
I think the only reason china wants to talk is because it is suspecting that the TGIE and the Dalai Lama may already have a strategy regarding the succession. It is only trying to dig for information.
Prediction: The “Dalai Lama Representatives” will come back from the talks and tell the world that progress has been made. Samdhong Rinpoche will blow his trumpet as hard as his lung can manage. The western leaders will pat themselves on their backs and forget about the issue for a while; i.e. until China once again announces it will cease all talks with the “Dalai Clique”. I can go on, but you know how it goes.
We all have seen this movie many times. I would rather watch a tree grow live on tv.
I am still amazed that someone could actually think Michael Parenti’s sources were “independent” and not Maoist apologists. Wow. The Left has really blinded some people.
@Hugh totally
Rangzen, what’s that ?
Actually when I got to Lhasa, Tibet, the first thing that I said in a loud voice was “peu rangwang rangzen zangma yin!” Seemingly, my Tibetan guides were not able to understand what I meant….Or it might be that they did understand too well what is was all about !
Now it is clear that Tibet has been a part of China since times immemorial. Hard evidence is given by the fact that Tony (not Bennett but Sambhota)created the tibetan written language and grammar from the indian Devanagari scripture and Sanskritic. More, the Lhasa Council chosed the Indian school of Buddhism instead of the Chinese Ch’an.
In the same way that Tibet has long been a part of China, France has long been a part of Corsica, the tiny splitist island in the Mediterranean sea off the cost of Italy. Hard eveidence is given by the fact Napoleon, the great French Emperor, was born in Corsica and gave France her modern institutions such as the Council of State.
More as Charles de Gaulle, the great french politician, was based in London during the Second Wolrd War II and represented “La France libre” (Free France)against the German invadors, it is obvious that, since them, France has been a part of England though hardly can you find any French speaking fluent English when you go there for holidays.
When I was in Dharmasala, India, I chose “Rangzen” as a nickname. This way each time I was asked “what is your name?” I could answer: “My name is Rangzen”.
And when I met H.H. the Wolf in Monk’s Robe, try to guess what He said ? “Rangzen ! Rangzen!” which is hard evidence that the incarnation of Tchenrezig is a downright splitist !!!!
And try to guess what Jamyang Norbu said when I met him in the same indian village of Himachal Pradesh: “Vive Napoleon!” (Long Life Napoleon!)
And what did I answer ?
“Peu Rangwang Rangzen Zangma Yin!”
(As I tell my Chinese friends, this is the best way to say “Hello, how do you do?” in Tibetan language….)
Long Life Free Tibet ! Long Life Free China ! Mantgso and Momo for all !!!
All the Best
Rangzen
I think someone forgot to take his medications this morning.
With thoughts on the current ‘negotiations’ in Beijing, one question comes to mind:
http://tibettruth.com/2010/01/30/did-the-dalai-lama-submit-to-chinas-demands/
Rangzen, beautiful post.
Still…can you explain what you’re going on about? You seemed to write with out a direction. Listen to the early 80s punk band “the Misfits,” then get back to me. Perhaps that will help. (I know remembering the 80s always gives me the kick in the ass i need to get on with it).
The following words penned by Thomas Paine during the American revolution (1776), I believe speaks to the doubts and dilemma of all people who are fighting for their land and resonates so strongly with our situation. I thought I should share this with you.
“Men of passive tempers look somewhat lightly over the offences of Britain, and, still hoping for the best, are apt to call out, “come, come, we shall be friends again, for all this.” But examine the passion and feelings of mankind. Bring the doctrine of reconciliation to the touchstone of nature, and then tell me, whether you can hereafter love, honor and faithfully serve the power that hath carried fire and sword into your land? If you cannot do all these, then are you only deceiving yourselves, and by your delay bringing ruin upon posterity. Your future connexions with Britain, whom you can neither love nor honor, will be forced and unnatural, and being formed only on the plan of present conviniences, will in little time fall into a relapse more wretched than the first.”
@Rangzen ‘mangtso and momos to all’. lol that was funny
Man I hate when the comment section is like a term paper long read. Anyways, its always reading whats going on in people’s mind, be it from inside or out. I would love to read more from the Professor.
I dont know if the fall of greatest empire formula apply in this situation. If it does, i think its a matter of time when China will be shatt
ered like a glass in million pieces. The only effective effort we can put on from our side is to preserve whatver makes us a nation and ite people. One day China will fall because there is no unity in that place. The only unity apparent is its economic success. Look when that leaves the path of China, it will be a matter of few years thar entropy would be reached.
Man its hard commenting from a smart phone, so will stop here and continue tomorrow when i will get a proper computer.
hi Jamyang Norbu, “Happy Losar”-for what it is worth under the current circumstances. I have your book-finally!! You truly are a wonderful writer. Your style is like a conversation I am listening to; like you are sitting right in front of me talking-not just like “a me” as the lone reader, but me as the listener. I am enjoying this easy read thoroughly and especially enjoyed seeing my old pre-Tibet self clearly in Orwell’s “Notes on Nationalism”. I think we can all benefit from the saying, “walk a mile in someone else’s shoes”. I know that everybody loves to hate my views-and possibly my person as well? I respect your points of view, Mr Jamyang Norbu. I do not agree with all that you say because I am human like all of the complex people’s above and their various life experiences that led to their views. There is no “left” and no “right”; why do some people automatically and/or ignorantly put people into categories? I hope that Tibet will be free in the future. I hope that one day you can return to your fatherland and enjoy the air that it breathes. Thanks so much for putting your thoughts onto paper-the big effort that it is!!
When an innocent man is killed or tortured, his land invaded illegally, reduced him to minority in his own land, his culture and beliefs destroyed…,and all these done unprovoked, there’s no “grey” area…but unambiguous “black” and “white” or clear left or right. The perpetrator should be swiftly handed down capital punishment, period.
Happy Losar to JN la and all the rest.
To Choni Tsultrim Gyatso NJ(Comment11 above);
You are right for putting the situation of Tibetans at home on the priority. But if I am you at this point, it is important to value their solution to save Tibet by themselves. We can not subjectively judge their action. They live with Chinese and know China far more than us in exile. They never blindedly jump after TGIE or any other Tibet gourp. So we should recognize their detemination is not instigated by anyone else.
It’s the responsibility of every Tibetan to dedicate whatever we can without reasoning it is Rangzan or not.
Tsering Dorje
When innocent parents of children in a state of true poverty are entrusted to foreigners in their own country, and are then physically and mentally abused, denied an education and indoctrinated by these foreigners and their beliefs, these children later carry this hurt, shame, humiliation etc. into their adult lives, their relationships, their families; others around them suffer, and all these done unprovoked, there’s no “grey” area…but unambiguous “black” and “white” or clear left or right. The perpetrators should be bought to justice, period.
China & Chinese people are guilty until proven innocent. Even when they are proven innocent; they are still guilty in your eyes.
Tibet(+TGIE) & Tibetan people are innocent until proven guilty. Even when they are proven guilty; they are still innocent in your eyes.
Free Tibet
@ Tsering post#169
quote:
“One of the reason, we lost Tibet was those suckers “Tibet Aristocrats” and “Religious” Leader.
I think people are smart now. We are gonna fight China first, then we will close the door and fight those Aristocrats and Religious leaders.”
yes!! Free Tibet-but not just from China!!
you can use whatever decoration you like to cover up the facts;
*tinsel*(Tibetan Buddhism and monasticism was and is about the teachings of Buddha, compassion and peace and Tibetan lamas never abuse their authority)
*fur trim* (womens status was high in old Tibet; women are not born as low life with bad karma and are not considered dirty)
*glitter*(the Chinese introduced prostitution and alcohol to Tibet)
*rainbow-coloured beads*(Tibetans are peaceful people and only become violent when China, the Chinese and Muslims provoke them)
*satin ribbon & lace*(reincarnation and karma are real and are not a political/religious tool)
*sequins* (the Dalai Lama, TGIE & Free-Tibet groups are always right because China won’t get out of Tibet)
but no matter how hard you try…
you cannot “dress up” a cangue and get away with it forever
P.S.
re: the misuse of the the “kiddies’ funds” (+ other, for now, unexposed corruption)…all I can say is:
“I told you so!!”
Losar Tashi Delek to Prof. Norbu and everyone here. To you as well, Jodie Hawthorne. I’m glad you have expressed your admiration for Jamyang Norbu, despite your disagreements with him.
What I don’t understand is exactly what your point is about the occupation of Tibet. You have posited a series of “decorations” of the facts. Each of these is somewhat valid and somewhat invalid as expressed, except the last.
Yes, lamas sometimes abused (and abuse) their authority, but the teachings of the Buddha are about compassion nonetheless.
The status of women left much to be desired in Tibet, just not as much as in China or India or a hundred other places in the world.
People used alcohol in old Tibet, just as in old everywhere else in the world, but the Chinese today really encourage its abuse as part of a strategy of demoralizing Tibetans, just as has occurred in other colonial situations, e.g. African-American neighborhoods in the U.S.
Etc, etc. But finally, you seem to imply that the existence of the same moral deficiencies among Tibetans that exist among every other group of human beings in the whole world somehow justifies the presence in Tibet of an occupying foreign power. Even if the behavior of Chinese authorities were not substantially worse than the behavior of the former Tibetan authorities (which it is,) that wouldn’t matter. The point is that Tibet isn’t China, and the Chinese have no more business being there than they would have occupying the neighborhood where you grew up.
The TGIE, “Free Tibet groups,” and HH Dalai Lama, though they disagree among themselves about many things, ARE “always right” about the wrongness of China’s occupation of Tibet. When Hitler occupied much of Europe, when the USSR occupied Eastern Europe, when the European colonial powers occupied much of the world, the existence of prostitution, alcohol abuse, sexual inequality, and religious hypocrisy in the colonized countries did not in any way justify their colonization.
None of the points you raise have anything to do with the right of foreigners from China, another nation, to invade and forcibly subjugate Tibet. They have no such right, and that is the whole point.
Yes, I agree with you 100%. China has no right to be in Tibet. I say this not because of history but as a believer that indigenous people deserve the right to their homelands and self-determination.
Please don’t think that I am just saying this-it is quite possible that I will be refused entry next time I apply for a visa into China since I have repeated my views too many times under my own name all over the internet!! This has real ramifications for me and my children and extended family in China.
The problem with Free Tibet groups, the Dalai Lama and TGIE is that they have have this horrid tendency to want to lie, cover up, gloss over, “dress up” and justify everything about Tibetan and what is going on in Tibet. This lot will use anything to add leverage to their campaign against China and the Chinese people and their culture. It is the methods they use that are questionable; not the cause.
Matter of fact since my early days as an active member of the Australian Tibet Council all of the “facts” that I learned about Tibet have been proven to be extremely misleading. I have to say that I would not have taken up research in Tibet if I had known there existed this very dark shade of grey that hovers between what the Dalai Lama, TGIE and Free-Tibeters are advocating and what is truth.
I am sorry that I have no respect for the Dalai Lama. This was not the case when I lived in China and Tibet, I was formerly a big fan of DL and smuggled many pics and books into China!! I could not have looked my friends, acquaintances or informers in the eye if I had no respect for the very person that holds such a special place in their hearts. For this reason I do not think I will ever have my research published. This is a great shame but I don’t feel comfortable and respect for my informants is most important as they let me into their lives, homes and hearts.
I have a lot of problems with the Dalai Lama and his hypocrisy. The Dalai Lama is not a feminist. He covered up for, endorses and is a buddy of Sogyal Rinpoche. He has banned Dorje Shugden and he did encourage extreme measures against Shugden practitioners, etc etc etc etc…
But the straw that broke the yak’s back was my trip to India. When a group of young Indian men told me stories of how they were abused by Tibetan bosses in McLeod Ganj-some for 20 or more years!! the Dalai Lama’s office and he himself know about it and have done nothing to stop it, how can I have respect for such a person? This child labour must be controlled and the Tibetan bosses must be held accountable. I know we are talking about India here, but for me the issue is with who the abusers are-they are Tibetans. The very people that want their human rights respected think that it is o.k to use and abuse children and deny them an education, contact and support for their families-as promised to some etc. I have not only heard the stories but have witnessed this with my own eyes. This must stop.
About the alcohol issue; you say that “the Chinese today really encourage its abuse as part of a strategy of demoralizing Tibetans”-this is crazy and not true. Are you suggesting that the Chinese govt or people are deliberately trying to use alcohol to demoralise Tibetans. Don’t be ridiculous!!
I am afraid that China is now falling into the same trap that the west did; by over romanticising Tibetan Buddhism and Tibetan culture. This is not a good idea. I am not sure if you have read “Buddhism Observed” by Peter Moran? This is a wonderful research that clearly exposes the disillusionment of westerners that feel they were lied to about Tibetans, their culture and the idea that Tibetans are all Buddhist. Another wonderful piece is by Tara Carreon (http://www.american-buddha.com/tib.bud.working.htm?signup) who is as pissed off as I was when she realised that she had “aided her captors”.
Perhaps the biggest mistake I made during my years in Tibet was hanging about with Tibetan exiles that had returned to Tibet to live. Most of them had been educated in India. Later I also learned that many of them came from families that were former landowners/controllers in their villages. I have some idea about the crap taught to Tibetans in monk schools in India, and I am worried about Tibetan attitudes towards westerners and Chinese people alike (Tara Carreon would know what I mean about the disrespect towards westerners).
My Tibetan partner was stupid enough to tell me some of the disgraceful things that his Tibetan buddies say about westerners-particularly women and our culture. These very Tibetans that walk around with a great chip on their shoulders, like they are the embodiment of all that is holy and true, would have to be the most immoral people I have ever met.
Many Tibetans returned from exile get money through tour guiding for western tourists but many of them slander westerners and our culture like hell behind their backs. Many of them laugh about how stupid westerners are for falling for the Tibetan Buddhism/culture and new age hype. I know a group of Tibetan men from Amdo that get gullible girls drunk (western and Chinese) and then take advantage of them. If they think the girl is a bit ugly they will call a buddy to take over the game.
These same Amdoan men gave my cel number to one of the most despicable Tibetan men in the community. He gave my number to other nuts too. They would call my phone and pretend to have the wrong number and ask if we can meet up at a hotel for sex-like a was a prostitute. Later they used other crazy techniques to try and prove amongst themselves that I was an “easy western woman”. They would sometimes pose as monks from Sumtseling Monastery and chat. They really enjoyed making a fool out of me. They continued to do it after I got together with my son’s father and it caused a lot of trouble between us. It was him that told me that his own friends were behind it. This is China’s fault; they “forced” these Tibetans into exile where they learn this type of shocking behavior-do you really think so??
The Dalai Lama, TGIE (although Samdong Rinpoche must be respected for his honesty on some matters but not others)and the Free Tibeters have done a great job of allowing this hype to infect Tibetan people that live in exile. Mr Tenzin Wangyal knows about it-you can deny it if you like.
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=11396&t=1
I don’t expect you to understand what I am trying to express to you because unless you have lived in China and Tibet you will probably never get my drift. Also I am coming from a western female perspective-this makes a big difference too.
I have many examples of how crazy the misrepresentation of Tibet etc. is. One misled Australian Buddhist lady asked me this question:
“How will your children get along when they are older, I wonder?”
I did not understand what she meant so I asked her. She said,
“Well, one of your children has a Chinese father and the other has a Tibetan father. With the problem of China and Tibet, the differences in culture it will be interesting to see how they get on in the future.”
I know what she meant, I was very annoyed too.
Chinese=heathen+evil
Tibetan=Buddhist+holy
I put her straight and she justified about everything; blaming the Chinese.
While I was pregnant in Australia with my son Sonam, my Tibetan partner was having a great time on my money. Drinking, cheating and being violent. He smashed in the window of a taxi and threatened the taxi driver with a knife. The reason? The taxi driver was Chinese and in Gyalthang the taxi is 20 cents dearer after 10pm. He recons that the taxi driver lied about the time and was being racist towards him!!
I have seen Tibetans do this-make up excuses to be racist themselves and then twist it around and act like it was the Chinese party at fault. I never knew this side of my partner until it was too late. There were many other lies and deceit-the real reason that he wanted to be with me was because he wanted money to produce a vcd of his folk music. I guess when you want something ($ and fame) so desperately people will do anything to get it. He also spun the classic line about an old monk predicting that his future was with a foreign woman-that it was fate!! When I said “not now” about the $ he got very angry and was like a different person overnight. He wanted a Hummer too!! He also later wanted me to wear brand named clothing like “North Face” and “Ozark”, which I did own because of my environmental work and BN crane surveying but I preferred to wear skirts when not working-too daggy for him!! Amazing transformation he was!! I guess that is China’s fault too??
Perhaps the saddest thing that happened was the death of Lobsang; my best friends partner. She was treated like a leper by the Tibetan community and also by Lobsang’s mother and granny. They wanted an arranged marriage for Lobsang. He was against it, but if he did not obey they would disown him-as they had the other 2 siblings who chose their own partners. You can blame Tibetan superiority, Aristocratic roots, racism, sexism, Tibetan Buddhism and culture, total lack of compassion and complete disregard of another human. Know who came to this beautiful young woman’s aid? A very complicated Chinese woman that was married to a Tibetan man. Are the Chinese to blame for this too?? I guess you could say that the Chinese demoralised Lobsang’s family by taking the land from them and distributing it amongst the landless, this in turn led mum and granny to become completely obsessed with gaining back face. O.k-it’s China’s fault again for the intense pain that my best friend felt and carries with her each and every moment?
I rented houses through 2 different Tibetans in Gyalthang. Both of them tried to rip me off and lied to me. Both times it was a Chinese person that told me the truth and helped me out of the mess. When I was having renovations done my landlord lied about the cost and said the worker was a relative of his wife-who was Chinese. Later the Chinese laborer came to me and told me that he was not a relative and felt very bad about going along with such deceit. That must be China’s fault too-they demoralise Tibetans so they are dishonest??
I could go on all day…this is just a drop in the ocean of what happened in Gyalthang and Tibet…
The Free Tibet campaign attracts a lot of crazy people, many of them are racists, religious fanatics and other lost souls.
Free Tibet but please leave Chinese people and their culture alone.
Jodie Hawthorne
I beg to differ. The free Tibet campaign attracts relatively few racists or crazies.
I’m certain that if you go to any Tibetan temple in the west you will find the odd lost soul there, possibly trying out their hundredth different path to finding some serenity. You will find the monks and nuns and laypeople doing their level best to help them. I highly recommend you read Shantideva’s “Path of the Boddhisatva” to understand why.
I have read the “Way of the Boddhisatva” and it is one of my favorites. I also gave out many copies in Tibetan script in Tibet. The Dhammapada is another wonderful text that I love dearly. Almost all Tibetans in Tibet do not own any of these texts. If you have read Mr Tenzin Wangyal’s piece on Tibetan Buddhism you will get an idea about what it stands for in real terms:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=8,2138,0,0,1,0
Being born a Tibetan Buddhist does not mean that all Tibetans are practicing Buddhists. Peter Moran’s study that I mentioned above will back up what I came to know about Buddhism for Tibetan people.
There is nothing wrong with Buddhism, but there is a serious problem with what is being taught to very traditional Tibetans in Tibet. I bet the women (and men) in the dharma centres in the West do not know that in traditional Tibetan society Tibetan women pray to be born a man in their next life. To be born a woman is bad karma, a lower birth. A lot of brownie points/white pebbles/merit must be obtained in this life to prevent being born a woman in the next. This belief is all encompassing for many Tibetan women in Tibet.
Is this one of the issues that the free-Tibeters are harping about when they say that China is destroying traditional Tibetan culture? For many modern women in Tibet they have found an escape from this by embracing modern life removed from traditional society. This is their choice-and finally they had one!! If many of these people had it their way Tibet would be as it was before. I don’t respect the the male dominated misogynist trends in traditional Tibetan culture and Tibetan Buddhism.
This is another clever facade of the Dalai Lama and the likes of Robert Thurman. Tell me, where can I find compassion in a cangue? I don’t care about China’s history of torture in comparison or the history of medieval Europe and so on. My point is this-LET TIBET STAND ALONE. Let people make their own conclusions based on fact. I don’t accept or respect this glossing over of the facts about Tibet’s past, its present and the possibilities for its future.
Do you think that because sections of Tibet’s society were based on complete exploitation and control through a phony form of Buddhism that Tibet does not deserve to be free from China? Is that why everybody is lying/in denial about the truth?
Do you think that if you told the truth about Tibet’s dark history that people would not support a free-Tibet?
Is that why some people, the Dalai Lama and other “experts” want to lie about Sogyal Rinpoche and others, their abuse of religious positions?
http://www.flameout.org/flameout/gurus/tibetan.html
Free Tibet from China and outdated Tibetan Buddhism and other forms of control through religious politics.
Many Tibetans will not agree. Many Tibetan woman would also not agree. Let individual Tibetans decide for themselves what they want. It is not our choice or our place to represent the entire population of Tibetans in Tibet/China. Can Tibet really expect democracy and freedom of choice under a Dalai Lama that does not respect the rights of individual Tibetans to choose-even in Tibetan exile society? Why are Tibetans being silenced when they speak out on sensitive issues that need urgent attention like abuse and corruption?
Jodie,
That’s funny, the last time you dropped here in early January, forty days ago, you said: “This issue is none of my business and in future I will stay out of it. I have more important things to do with my time than debate Tibet.”
Do you already need some holidays or were you bitten by an apso puppy…?
Go and get a life of your own instead of wasting the bandwidth with your stupid arguments. Your disillusion and bitterness have more to do with teen acne than anything else…
thats right. I remember i even thanked her when she said she was quitting. I felt so relieved then. china’s communist govt and their running dogs do share something in common, that what they say are never supported by what they do.
Sangay did you mean our Jodie?
Let her be. Let her clown around a bit. We do need the laughs, especially with the weather so gloomy and chilly.
Nice diversion.
I think she is in need of a tranquilizer, a huge dose of at that..
🙂
TCL
Hello again!
TCL, do you think that Indian children being abused by Tibetans in McLeod Ganj and other settlements in India is a laugh? Do you think that violence against Dorje Shugden practitioners is a laugh too? What about sexually abusing women and young boys, is that a laugh?
Don’t you think that some of “Kiddies Funds” that have been ripped off could have been used to educate the Indian kids or for further education of Tibetan exiles? Do you find its funny that westerners and other good hearted people gave those funds to assist Tibetan exiles but the funds have been misappropriated since day dot?
@ Maura
You are the embodiment of compassion and goodness because you are saving Tibet. In answer to your question about who is next to father one of my children-there will be no more as had a hysterectomy and almost died when I had my Sonam-Dorje. Bet you wish I had!
@ Joe Hamilton
When you were in McLeod Ganj checking out the ‘white trash German-speaking girls’ did you manage a peek in the kitchen at those poor Indian kids?
You know what? I think the time I am in most need of a tranquiliser is when DL comes to Hobart and other cities in Australia and does his “Peace and Compassion” talks. Honorable Senator Brown sits by the side of a homophobic and listens to empty words.
Last night I sat up late and read Robert Barnett’s “Women and Politics in Contemporary Tibet”. I certainly don’t think what happens to the nuns and other Tibetans in prison is the work of human beings-it’s like a horror movie.
Looking from the window
Seeing nothing but the sky-
The clouds that float in the sky
I wish were my parents.
We, the captured friends in spirit,
We might be the ones to fetch the jewel-
No matter how hard we are beaten
Our linked arms cannot be separated.
The cloud from the east
is not a patch that is sewn-
The time will come when the sun
From beneath the clouds shall appear.
(a song sang by a nun in June 1993 on the tape that was smuggled out of Drapchi Prison) Quoted from Barnett’s essay. I assume that the “jewel” represents RANGZEN!
I see that some of you are not happy with Mr Barnett and that his name is on the list @ post #110:
https://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2008/06/22/it%e2%80%99s-not-the-economy-stupid/
What truth did he tell to provoke you?
What about “The Body of Nun” by Charlene E. Makley when she opens her essay with the following words of a nun from Labrang. The nun is talking about her own people-Tibetans; their attitude toward nuns:
‘They don’t like nuns, you know; the laity here, if a monk is going by, say…”Ama, a monk went by, take off your hats!” That’s how they act. As for nuns, they compare us to Muslims and stray dogs!’
“Nuns in the Tibetan Buddhist monastery town of Labrang…were widely considered to be interlopers…like the Muslim Chinese…and the dogs that did not belong to any household but scraped out a living between public spaces and family courtyards, Tibetans in Labrang most generally saw nuns as the embodiment of inappropriate otherness…” Makley, 2005.
Free Tibet
Jodie,
Do you feel better now? Then take a deep breath and relax…
no, because I forgot about replying to your patronising rubbish above-reposted here:
# Christophe | December 28th, 2009 | 10:09 pm
Jodie,
It’s not living a few years in Dechen (not Deqen, please!) that gives you a better understanding of Tibetans than Jeff, nor is it your studies of Mandarin and Folklore. Far from that!
In fact, since decades, Jeff has been very closely involved with Tibetans, longer than you may ever be, and he didn’t spend this time writing “Haiku from Shangri-la” and licking the ass of Chinese authorities to get visas and the right to host new age tourists “for combined travel/artistic expression, written and visual”. Undoubtedly, this kind of selfish entertaining approach gives you another perspective on the Sino-Tibetan conflict…
my delayed response is this:
Christof, the word “Deqen” is the spelling I chose instead of “Dechen”. They are one and the same pronunciation. If you were as smart as you think you are then you would know that the spelling “Deqen” is not pinyin (Chinese phonetics); there is no “qen” in Hanyu Pinyin; there is only “qun”. The problem with Dechen for English readers is that “chen” sounds like the way that a typical “laowai” would pronounce Mr Chen. The Chinese phonetic spelling for the prefecture of Dechen or Deqen is in fact “Diqing” and the town is called “Deqin”.
Throughout my haiku collection I have only used Tibetan spellings for place names;apart from the cover where I use Shangri-la (which would be Shang-ge-li-la in pinyin)-if you had read the haiku you would know that it is not a romanticisation of Tibet, but seeks to be real and honest-which is always my policy.
examples:
Songzanlin Si = Gedan Sum Tse Ling Monastery or Gompa
Zhongdian = Gyalthang
Benzilan = Pongtselang
Shusong = Tsogsum
Deqin = Jol
Hope that clears up your pathetic attempt at making me look like an idiot and clarifies my feelings about using Chinese spellings for Tibetan places.
Mandarin is the language of the oppressors and is therefore very evil.
If you knew anything about China or Tibet you would know that there is no need to lick the arse of anybody to get a visa. I was on a business visa and only tourist visas throughout my research & the decade I spent in China and Tibet. Very silly and immature.
And as far as taking groups for artistic etc. tours, this was a plan for me and my Tibetan partner at the time-the father of my son. It never happened because he became abusive and violent and I escaped with my children to safety after hiding for 2 weeks in a monks home. I made a report to the Gyalthang police about his plan to use crazed family and Tibetan mafia to end my life and take my son. Hope that makes your day, Christophe.
Jodie Hawthorne wrote in parody:
“Mandarin is the language of the oppressors and is therefore very evil.”
I’m not aware of Tibetans who think that way. They are, however, rather tired of having it forced upon them.
However, Chairman Mao pronounced Tibetan to be an “inherently reactionary language” and under his leadership the Party set about destroying the language entirely. Their successors are still working at wiping it out by slow strangulation.
Just as the Chinese have a right to live their lives with their own languages, Tibetans have a right to live their lives speaking, writing and reading Tibetan and thinking and dreaming in Tibetan. Apart from a brief respite under Hu Yaobang, that right has been trampled on for the last 50 years of China’s occupation of Tibet.
Dear Jodie,
It’s hard to find time to respond to all the errors in your posts, because they are so long. Many people who frequent this website disagree with HH Dalai Lama’s approach to the Tibetan situation but without referring to him as a “hypocrite” or a “homophobe,” because he is neither. A hypocrite doesn’t exhaust himself in his old age in a ceaseless quest to alleviate the suffering of his people, when he would prefer to be spending his remaining years in meditation retreat. A homophobe doesn’t count among his closest students and strongest supporters prominent gay scholars like Jeffrey Hopkins. As for the issue of the controversial deity, you don’t seem to understand it at all, but HHDL has not, and could not, ban its practice; he only asks that its devotees not attend his teachings. But your confusion may be most evident in your citation of the Drapchi nuns’ song: “The time will come when the sun
From beneath the clouds shall appear.” Don’t you understand that these lines refer to the return to Tibet of the very Dalai Lama you are vilifying?
It’s obvious that this woman who goes by the name Molly Magna (in phayul.com) also has nothing worthwhile to do, quite contrary to what she earlier said and for which reason she said she was quitting this blog altogether. She’s desperate, bitter, ignorant, arrogant, child-like,lonely, and attention deficit. She’s picking on everyone now with stupid arguments.
However as bad as she may look she does quite good job, just like other CCP running dogs, in constructing a facade of ‘caring’ for ‘free Tibet’ while destroying and spewing venom on everything that represents, and works for Free Tibet. See it for yourself. What she writes is all aimed towards destroying free Tibet campaign and supporters, and spewing venom on His Holiness the Dalai lama, the embodiment of Free Tibet and one of the world’s most beloved man of peace. And after having dirtied the water she signs off with an ambiguous “free tibet” to create an illusion that she “supports” free Tibet, just like someone who throws bone at dog after having eaten all the meat to ‘show’ he cares. This is actually quite in tune with other runnning dogs of China’s communist govt, too. Whenever they are busted for their covert support of CCP, they always point to an article or two they may have written containing policy criticism on non sensitive issues, in an effort to save their butt and thereby giving a facade that they are not “pro china”.
Jodi Hawthorne aka Molly Magna, dont worry. You are doing quite good job. Your China visa is intact and is ready to be picked up at your nearest chinese consulate whenever you are ready. I can guarantee you. An understanding parents wont mind if their children make minor criticm on their conducts as long as they dont fail on bigger picture, that’s recognizing and loving him as father. and no one’s more understanding on this than “benevolent parents” in beijing.
Typical! You are all in denial. Bill King, one day you may wake up and realise what is really going on here. None of you have the guts to face up to the truth. I am not bitter, but I am angry at the injustices; ALL OF THEM.
Dave, thanks for pointing that out about Jeffrey Hopkins as I had no idea and I apologise about calling DL homophobic. I have been reading DL’s comments on homosexual behaviour for some time now in his books and he says it is against Buddhist principles. This is outdated now but it does clarify why I think DL is against homosexuality; of course that is not the same as homophobia and I should take back that comment.
http://www.gaybuddhist.org/archive/1997.01.pdf
As far as the ban on Dorje Shugden; there certainly was a ban and there is persecution of the practitioners. I guess the court case was a rumour as well, was it?
I am not always right. I admit that and so should the people on this forum. I use my real name too and you are not.
Thursday, April 27, 2006
Not all religious leaders are gay-haters
For those of you who missed it, there was an article in The West Australian on the 15th April, “A God in exile” about the Dalai Lama. In the article he made many unsavoury comments about gays and lesbians.
On Monday night Sam and I received a phone call from Ajahn Brahm, the spiritual leader of the Buddhist Society of WA to apologise for the Dalai Lama’s comments and to pass on those apologies to the GLBTI community. His view is strongly that the majority of Buddhists support GLBTI people and he certainly feels very strongly about personally supporting GLBTI people.
Yesterday, he had a letter published in The West Australian. As follows:
The Dailai Lama was out of line when he said: “If you are a Buddhist, homosexuality is wrong. Full stop” (according to your article, A god in exile, 15/4).
The Dalai Lama is not the “Pope” of Buddhism and, charming as he often is, he sometimes gets it wrong. He is only the head of one of the four main sects of Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism) and he speaks only for his group.
Most Buddhists throughout the modern world are inspired to learn that the Buddha did not discriminate against homosexuality. The core teachings of original Buddhism clearly show that it is not whether one is heterosexual, homosexual or celibate that is good or bad, but it is how a person uses their sexual orientation that makes for good or bad karma.
For example, a gay man in a committed, loving and joyful relationship with a male partner is definitely morally superior to a straight married guy who is unfaithful to his wife. The Daila Lama’s error is to look for his guidance in dodgy scriptures composed many centuries after the time of the Buddha.
Ajahn Brahm, abbot of Bodhinyana Buddhist monastery, spiritual director of the Buddhist Society of WA
http://www.bswa.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=181
Jodie, can you go over the 10 non-virtuous acts, especially the sexual misconduct, and tell me what it says. Thanks.
Ngi Tsewi Gapshi la,
Does Tibetan buddhism define buddhists by the yardstick of ten non-virtous actions?
I think the real question is should we let religion dictate our lives? The scriptures that were written some thousands year old have still relevant guidance to our day to day lives? If we were to strictly follow the religious dogmas, it would be considered illegal (immoral)to make love during the day, in front of religious figures, of any important of that natures?
Maybe we can create a LOVE ROOM where it’s always dark as night and no signs of any religious importance in the LOVE ROOM to strictly comply with the ten virtuous acts?
Jewish has the kosher. Muslim have halal. Hindu don’t eat beef. We the Tibetan buddhists have the LOVE ROOM. I think this special room can quickly turn into a trendy showcase among strictly followers of Tibetan buddhism. And you can set strict rules for creating a LOVE ROOM and you can certify the ROOM to the Tibetan buddhist standard like certified kosher or halal to their respective scriptures.
Let me begin by a Hindi saying “samajhdar ko ishara kafi hai” – for the smart a hint is enough.
I think we all see the obvious problem which is intrinsic in any political system that is headed by a religious figure. We either don’t acknowledge the problem or can’t dare to look at the leader’s decisions through a critical lens because of fear of inflaming religious sentiments.
When Samdhong Rinpoche, a monk, took his oath of office, he pledged to “serve Gyalwa Rinpoche” and His vision for the World and Tibet. So, he is doing what he believes he was elected to do, which is follow HHDL.
But to people like me THIS is the problem. What is the point of electing a Prime Minister if all he is allowed to do is follow the decisions of DL. And why are we calling this democracy?
I am concerned that the status quo only supports the critiques of the DL who call him hypocrite. But I also see that in public speeches he always says the right things about individual and democratic rights. For example, he has never said anything against “party-system”. He even gave the Tibetan people a chance to reconsider the course of our struggle in 2008. When he says “Independence is out of the question” it means as long as HE is making the decision it is out of the question. He has said many times that he is already semi-retired. That the exile Tibetans have the democratic right to elect their Prime Minister who can make decisions about the future course of our struggle. But we can’t expect much if all the Prime Minister can do is echo His decisions.
JN la has already suggested the real reforms we need in his articles “Jewel in the Ballot Box” and “Waiting for Mangtso II”. The key is that these reforms must be implemented while the current DL is still alive.
It is a tragedy that despite living in twenty-first century many Tibetan people can’t seem to be able to outgrow their superstition and blind faith.
Kalsang la, precisely. Unless there is multi-party system, there is not going to be much change despite whatever changes Kundun might might. Whatever he says, the elected officials consider the final word even though he might not mean it in a dictatorial sense. It provides a safe and easy route for those who are devoid of imagination and courage and performs their respective roles in a perfunctory acqueiscence. It denies responsibility as they can always point to Kundun as the progenitor of the idea to begin with. And they can go back to arguing about who spend more money on which trip.
dearest nying kyi tselo Arihant la, that is precisely my point. As far as homosexuality is concerned, it is wrong. Just as sexual intercourse in any other area other than the intended destination is wrong, the time of the day, the place of the deed, and with whom it was performed with etc etc. I didn’t make it up. Neither did Kundun. We can’t change a doctrine to fit a lifestyle. There is no force to accept it.
Having said that, it is not a deal breaker like other religions. There are far more egregious offenses, karmic inclinations, such as murder and misrepresentation of Dharma. Sexual misconduct is just a tiny part of it and even then it is up to the practitioners to heed it or not. I am sure there are many straight practioneers who are engaging in sexual misconduct every night. So, in short, it is not a big deal. And to hear Jodie try to make it seem like a huge deal breaker is misleading and deliberate misrepresentation. I have known many gay buddhist practioneers who are perfectly fine with it as they understand it in its context and not as a judgment of the person which it does not do. So, when kundun states it is against buddhism, you have to understand he means the act alone. He has no problem with gay people practising buddhism.
When His Holiness says His first priority is to promoste Universal Compassion; second Harmony among all the religions, and THIRD Freedom of Tibetans, there’s a message to be understood, that is, political affairs of Tibetans is the responsibility of Kalon Tripa of TGIE, and not His PRIORITY. In other words He has already passed the torch. Actually hasn’t He already said miore than once that He’s “semi-retired”?
So folks, lets roll up our sleeves and start carrying the burden on our back beginning next Kalon Tripa election, and stop saying “he said this, he said that”, coz at stake is the survival of a country that is as old and as rich in history and culture as China, or maybe more!
Bhod Gyallo!
Tsewi Kalsang Puntsok la,
I see the exact same problem. Every major decision in exile govt is sealed by a forged sense of collective conscience. But Tibetan Youth Congress is an independent organization so is the National Democratic Party of Tibet and many others. Even so they are like Mr. Samdong doing the same thing that “We either don’t acknowledge the problem or can’t dare to look at the leader’s decisions through a critical lens because of fear of inflaming religious sentiments.”
Pretty much anything that goes against the His Holiness the Dalai Lama can’t simply exist in Tibetan community especially in Tibetan diaspora. I just don’t want to talk about these things because raising these sorts of questions always gets me alienated from the group.
The sources of many of the issues we face now are so intertwined with our history that I can’t even think of a quick solution to these.
There need to be some political reforms in exile govt. The right way to do that is through a democratic process such as participating in chitue election or katriship and change laws through legal means. If you run for the katriship and if my green book is up to date, you may get my vote.
In the end, I’ve gained (or validated my impression) of some prospective on the exile politics. I thank you for sincerely expressing your views. Let move on from this topic. Hopefully, I meet you on some other topics in the future.
Ngi gi tsewi Gapshi la,
My comment on your ten non-virtous acts beautifully turned into a double blade that painfully cut Jodie moto and Gapshi poto. Lol.
Guatama Buddha was an Indian guy, probably a smart guy. That doesn’t mean you are supposed to pledge to live your life with his rules. You may say this bowl of soup is delicious. At same time you should have the option to think that it might be even more delicious if one of the ingredients is taken out. As a human being with unique predisposition, you should have to option to eliminate any ingredients that you don’t want to drink and digest. Understand that I don’t give a damn shit about the religious dogmas.
I have one book recommendation for Jodie. It’s called “Crazy Like Us the Globalization of American (Western) Syche”. Read this before even think about writing a negative comment on the HH the Dalai Lama.
The issue of sexual orientation as is the underpinning issue (at least that is what many so-called religious personnel want you to believe)of monotheist religions of the West is not so with Buddhism. Nothing said in the Buddhist scripture is taken point blank. The point I am making here may as well be a double blade but that’s how I perceive these issues.
My cup of coffee this morning!
Tsewi Sangay la,
I have learned a lot by dissecting “he said” “she said” things here. If you seriously want to do something to the exile politics, you need to know the power grid of it.
Arihant???? Put that joint down please and read my comment again.
A kind of multi-party system is necessary for any democratic government. Since our government in exile is also a democratic government, we need such system.
But why can’t we establish such party system in exile?
In my opinion, we are too immature to follow multiparty system for a while. We have witnessed internal fight within TYC(Hitting bislari bottles each other) and during mass movement in Delhi, there was internal fight among different organisations.
so I think it is better to have H.H the Dalai Lama to guide us!
If it is extremely undemocratic, so be it!
We need someone who can lead us to better future, not somewhere unknown territory.
Ideology is sometime good for certain section of people but not everyone!