We, the undersigned 27 long-time Tibet Supporters, are writing to you to express our concern about several recent events relating to the current Tibetan Election processes.
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama has worked tirelessly to implement democracy in the Tibetan polity and has expressed many times the personal and national satisfaction felt in his voluntarily turning over political control to elected officials, stating in his retirement message: “Contrary to the system of the Chinese Communists’ authoritarian rule in Tibet, our small community in exile has been able to establish a complete modern democratic system. In the long run this decision will make our exile administration stronger and efficient. […] This is our glorious achievement. Tibetans inside Tibet should be proud of this achievement.”
We are very appreciative of his work in this regard and the import of his retirement message, which states that every Tibetan in exile has the right to participate in free and fair elections of officials entrusted not only with the duty of governance in exile but also charged with the higher responsibility of working for a better future for the long-suffering nation of Tibet. In particular we believe that every Tibetan has the right to hold and express their view as to the future of Tibet. We are therefore concerned that:
- The Tibetan Election Commission has recently issued rules that constrain the right to free speech and association of organizations and individuals during the upcoming exile Tibetan elections. These include a rule that, with one exception, no independent organization or individual is allowed to carry out any announcement or spend funds on campaign activities. These restrictions are inconsistent with recognized international human rights, which are incorporated into the Tibetan Charter (the Tibetan government-in-exile’s constitution).
- An arbitrary list of organizations that are exempted from the rules was created by the Kashag; this list includes at least one organization openly supporting the current incumbents, which gives a significant electoral advantage to such incumbents.
- Neither the Election Commission nor the Kashag has provided any criteria or procedures for approving additional organizations to be exempted from these rules and this is in spite of multiple requests by at least one organization supporting a non-incumbent candidate wishing to be thus recognized or exempted.
- Moreover, in setting up a system with a double standard, in which certain organizations enjoy full free speech rights and the rest do not, the Election Commission has politicized the process, since Kashag approval is required for exemption from these restrictions, yet the head of the Kashag is seeking re-election. Clearly, no legitimate democratic system can allow one candidate in an election to decide which groups get to speak or spend freely in that election.
- The Election Commission has abrogated its obligation to decide – before the Preliminary vote – how many of the top vote-earning candidates in the Preliminary vote for the position of Sikyong will be allowed to stand in the Final vote, thus opening the structuring of the Final vote roster to the possibility of behind-the-scenes manipulation for political purposes.
- The Election Commission’s rules contain vague prohibitions that provide opportunity for arbitrary interpretation and retroactive enforcement. For example, these rules prohibit any person from making any “character assassination” or creating “conditions that would lead to conflicts within the society through sowing dissension”, without defining such terms or establishing any due process adjudication. Violations could result in all votes for a particular candidate benefitting from such activities (whether or not the candidate even instigated these actions) being declared null and void, at the sole discretion of the Election Commission. Moreover, the exceedingly vague and subjective wording of this rule risks creating a chilling effect on democratic discourse and dissent.
- So far, the Election Commission has received at least one complaint from a non-incumbent Sikyong candidate alleging that an incumbent candidate is violating the Election Commission’s prohibitions on using official platforms for campaign purposes. The Election Commission’s reply – that it does not have the resources to police all noncompliance – raises the troubling possibility of selective enforcement.
- Finally and most critically, officials of the Election Commission, Parliament, and Kashag, who are responsible for the above policies and procedures, are either officials whose seats of power are at stake in the upcoming election, or are appointed by those officials. There has been no public consultation or open rule-making process prior to the promulgation of these rules, nor is there an independent judicial check to ensure the rules’ compliance with international human rights norms or to ensure fair implementation.
The problems that may arise from such undemocratic practices are many and serious. By providing means for incumbents to silence opponents before the polls open and to arbitrarily and retroactively make decisions on key rules, the Central Tibetan Administration risks becoming regarded by its people, the host nation of India, its international support base, and the international community, as an undemocratic body unworthy of trust. Even more seriously, such practices leave open the possibility of CTA posts being taken by people who become unaccountable to a free and fair popular vote and therefore able to act without the approval – or even against the will – of the Tibetan people.
The continuing support for the Tibetan cause by ourselves and many others worldwide is, partly but significantly, based on the Central Tibetan Administration honoring both the spirit and practice of His Holiness’s efforts to implement true democracy in the Tibetan polity, signified by an irreproachable public trust in free, fair, non-partisan election processes. We urge you to make early (i.e. before the Preliminary election) positive responses to all our concerns outlined above.
His Holiness and the CTA have, on many occasions, requested all the world to help Tibet, and expressed their appreciation for the assistance given by Tibet Supporters and Tibet Support Groups around the world – we who answered the call. That continuing support should not be wholly taken for granted.
SIGNED:
John Ackerly, Former President, International Campaign for Tibet, USA
Anders Højmark Andersen, Member of Tibet Support Committee, Denmark
Agurtzane Berasarte, Co-Founder and General Secretary, Phagma Drolma Association for Solidarity for the Tibetan People, Basque Country
Christophe Besuchet, Co-Founder, Comité de Soutien au Peuple Tibétain, Switzerland
Alan Cantos, CAT – Comite de Apoyo al Tibet, Spain
Philippa Carrick, Chief Executive Officer, Tibet Society, UK
Jack Churchward, Former CACCP Coordinator, USA
Florence Cotte, Militante Pour Un Tibet Libre, France
Monika Deimann-Clemens, 24 years TSG Germany; Tibet Flag Campaign, Germany
Angela Dempster-Passang, Member of SFT New Zealand, University of Otago Chapter, New Zealand
Dan Haig, Founder of Tibet Online, Past-President of Committee of 100 for Tibet, USA
Eva Herzer, Former President, Tibet Justice Center, USA
John Hocevar, Founder of Students for a Free Tibet and Former Co-Chairman of International Tibet Support Network (ITSN), USA
Jeff Inglis, Member of Tibet Justice Center, USA
Neville Jacobs, Member of Tibet Committee of Fairbanks, USA
Blake Kerr MD, Independent Human Rights Investigator, USA
Linda Mancini, Member of Boston Tibet Network, USA
José Elias Esteve Moltó, Main Research Lawyer and Author of Tibet Lawsuits, Professor of International Law, University of Valencia, Spain
Olivier Mores, Co-Founder and Honorary President, Les Amis du Tibet, Luxembourg
Rebecca Novick, Former President, Board Member and Consultant, Los Angeles Friends of Tibet; Founding Producer, The Tibet Connection; Country of Origin Information Expert on Tibet for Fahamu Refugee Programme, USA
Anthony O’Brien, Co-Founder of TSG-Ireland, Co-Founder of ECO-Tibet, Ireland
Jean-Paul Ribes, President, Comité de Soutien au Peuple Tibétain, France
Conrad Richter, Former Editor of World Tibet News (WTN), Canada
Sandra Ross, Director, Member of US Tibet Committee, USA
Elliot Sperling, Professor of Tibetan Studies, Indiana University, USA
Neil Steedman, Founder Chairman of TSG-Ireland, Co-Founder of ITSN, Member of Committee of 100 for Tibet, Ireland
Giovanni Vassallo, President of Bay Area Friends of Tibet, Past-President of Committee of 100 for Tibet, USA
Truth to be told, I am fed up on our own community because of those people who does not have the abilities and guts to enjoy the real democracy, cherish and embrace the people who are politic cognoscenti. And needless to say, our current prime minister is a parvenue so why people are still rely on him so much ?
You just knew this was coming.
Fake Democracy, just like the fake Democracy of Hong Kong foisted on them by the CCP. I might have been understanding if Kundun didn’t give us democracy since Tibetans are natural collectivists, plus one can argue, we dont have a land therefore Democracy, and all that it entails is risky……but, it was done, mainly, I suspect, for the injiis in free societies….to squeeze more money and support out of them.
Now the injiis don’t like this kind of democracy? What to do? Oh I know, the usual stand by, vilify them. Write letters expressing how hurt we are…. Or, black list them all, like we did to those poor Tibetan Shugden worshipers in India.
We erect fake orgs, of, “People’s” this… and “democracy” that……we use the same tricks and appellations as the CCP.. at bottom.. it’s the same collectivist mentality with no genuine individual rights. But its not all bad, His Holiness is still a feminist.
We are becoming more and more fractured thanks to Dharamsala and the Bully Majority. And if in future, some injii historian writes about Tibetan politics in the early 21st century, it might not be pretty. Those inji historians, they tend to be well-researched and objective, critical – those bastards.
Can you hear the Cicadas? The beautifully decorated Christmas Tree that is the Election Commission has done its thing and now put back in the box til Election Christmas come again in 5yrs time.
I like to see response from CTA
A society that has perpetrated such outrageous discrimination against some of its own citizens in the way that Tibetan exile society has done against the Shugden practitioners, is a society which fundamentally misunderstands the requirements of a liberal democracy and can fully expect to fail in establishing one. Furthermore, the Dalai Lama’s support for this discrimination is conclusive proof that his claims to be an historic provider of liberal democracy are baseless. The choice is simple – end the insane persecution of Shugden practitioners and apologise, or follow your theocratic ruler’s every whim until the end of time. Surely you know this in your hearts even if you are unable to admit it.
Steve, put a cork in it. We don’t want or need theocratic rule, and we definitely don’t need a religious war over superstitious crap, which, at its core, seems to be more about corporations and control.. In other words, self-serving, like your religious sentiments.
Please don’t make this into a shugden issue. I personally hate both sides for making all Tibetans look like bunch of religious fanatics.
Ironic the Buddha taught that the ego is illusory, life ephemeral, cultivate indifference. Religious people tend to be the most egotistic people I know. All fucking hypocrites.
Steve Rogers
While I may agree that there may be some people suffering discrimination / injustice because of this whole debacle – I dont think that you as an inji a first generation worshipper of Shugden, who has no connection or affiliation to the Tibetan govt or to the Tibetan people in the past or present have any legitimacy to speak on this issue. If you want an apology, first go and look up the history of this diety and all the magical things attibuted to this diety in Zemey Tulku’s yellow book. Then ask the keepers of this worship to apologise to all those Tibetans who were affected by this negativity as well as for the recent murder of the Geshe and his students in Dharamsala. Then talk apology.
It took 27 non-Tibetans to point out boldly the inherent discrepancies in supposedly unique “Tibetan democracy” in an open letter, while many of our own people have been at it since many years. Our late professor Dawa Norbu was one of the first to point out the flaws in our system and he was labeled “Anti Dalai Lama” and soundly admonished and threatened with dire consequences. Will the “Anti Dalai Lama” label now fly for the 27?
Steve Rogers
International Shugden Community website claims to have “four million Shugden Buddhists around the world”
Can you helping me to do the math? My count comes in approximately in thousands not in millions. Following is my math.
Small fraction of Gelug pa monks may be couple thousand max. Possible couple hundreds worshipers from other Tibetan Buddhist schools. Couple thousand Tibetan lay people around the world. Possible couple thousand Westerners around the world.
My math comes in approximately 20 to 30 thousand Max. My number could be wrong but number never come in millions for sure.
Where did you guys get 4 millions Shugden followers?
The main conspirator of this scheme is Jamyang Norbu and his a handful of malcontents and rabble-rousers who always take habitual tactics of standing facts on their heads and of a thief crying “stop thief” and conventionally play the game of “The devil rebukes sin.”
“If you can, help others; if you canot do it, at least don’t harm them.”
What have those so called “Supporters” done for the cause of Tibet? Not really much. They might have claimed to have done something for it, but the reality tells something else: Tibet is still under China’s control and Tibetans are being locked inside Tibet; and having been in exile for more than 6 decades, the only thing the Tibetans outside can do is to helplessly shout some rhetorical slogans to vent some sort of anger and frustration on the occasions of March 10th rally or such resembling rallies.
Perhaps the following piece by Mr. Gyalo Thondup will be the best answer to this so-called Open Letter:
[All my life, I have only one regret: my involvement with the CIA. Initially, I genuinely believed that the Americans wanted to help us fight for our independence. Eventually, I realized that was not true. It was misguided and wishful thinking on my part. The CIA’s goal was never independence for Tibet. In fact, I do not think that the Americans ever really even wanted to help. They just wanted to stir up trouble, using the Tibetans create misunderstandings and discord between China and India. Eventually, they were successful in that. The 1962 Sino-Indian bordern
war was one tragic result.
What good was that support from the CIA? Not much. In reality, all the CIA did was to train a few people and drop them and a few arms into Tibet. The arms they sent were never even nearly enough. If the United States had really wanted to help, the least they could have done would have been to supply enough arms and equipment for the Tibetans to put up a good fight. But the resistance fighters did not even have enough weapons to do that. For this, I still resent the United States.
Our Cooperation with the CIA provoked the Chinese, providing them the excuse they needed for launching massive reprisals against both the resistance fighters and the Tibetan people. Tens of thousands of Tibetans were killed as a result. My role with the CIA still weighs heavily on my conscience. I have remained silent about this for decades, too. But now I have to tell the truth. Our cooperation with the CIA was wrong. We should not have taken even the paltry support the CIA offered. If we had not collaborated with the CIA, if we had not taken the little bit of assistance with CIA was willing to give, the Chinese would not have had an excuse to kill so many Tibetans. Our collaboration led to the deaths of many, many innocent people. It was not only our people the Chinese killed. They tried to kill our culture, too. What I did by working with the CIA contributed to the complete destruction of the Tibetan culture. This reality causes me terrible pain. This is what has haunted me for so many years. This is what is on my conscience. I cannot get those events out of my mind. I feel guilty. This is my great regret.]
The above has been extracted from the book called “The Noodle Maker of Kalimpong” by Gyalo Thondup, the brother of HH the Dalai Lama. (Page 296 and 297)
Jesus effing Christ man…why are you harping about Shugdens again White? You blabbed about Shugden yesterday, and the day before that, and the day before that; ad-nauseum. What’s the point, since its clear, both sides have no integrity.
Why don’t you give it a rest just this once White? Or go to shugden.com and battle it out with those other faerieologists. Or start your own blog, instead of soiling Jamyang Norbu la’s website.
We have 27 long-time Tibet Supporters sightly concerned about our exile Democracy. Maybe these ignorami don’t realize that Tibetan democracy is so evolved, we have a clause, wherein, if we wanted to, we can even impeach the Dalai Lama. Ofcourse you can’t question the Dalai Lama but you can impeach him. Is that clear enough?
Oops, typo.. not slightly, I mean, mightily concerned..
Kashag and election commission should and must hear and give response to the concern die hard Tibetan Core western supporters. They are the one who strengthens the grassroots levels here in the west when we have nobody.
Thank you for their hardwork, supporters, unsung heroes.
I don’t believe this blog is not reserved just to attack CTA and Dalai Lama. Any related issue can be discussed. Your candidate Lukar Jam talked about Shugden that’s why I am talking about shugden. Lukar Jam belittled His Holiness that’s way I am defending His Holiness.
May I see the “Clause” about impeachment? Or is this something in your head?
I have a question.
How many people listed in the Open Letter advocate Rangzen? All of a sudden you guys glorifying these people. What happens if these people believe in MWA only?
Human Trafficking: Organized Crime in the Exile-Tibetan Community
Posted on 19 Hours Ago by Tibet Leaks
The brutal Chinese occupation of Tibet has created countless hardships for the Tibetan people, with so many looking to the West for safety and a new life outside India and Nepal. Many Tibetans have obtained western passports legally, but many more have in desperation turned to human traffickers and smugglers who make large amounts of cash with human trafficking rings. Starting in 2012, investigative reporters unearthed a well known and well organized Tibetan trafficking ring based in the United States and India. The activities of this particular Tibetan organized crime ring are widely known to the general public, making it easier for reporters to make connections and gather further information as to how it functions, and who has been involved.
In depth and conclusive reporting on human trafficking within Tibetan society is difficult, as the victims frequently fear retaliation or public shaming for having come forward in the media. Despite the risks, using confidential sources, reporters gained further insight into the machinations of the Tibetan political underworld and its connections to criminal activity.
Speaker Penpa Tsering and Thinley Kalsang
Speaker Penpa Tsering and Thinley Kalsang
In November of 2012, several sources testified that Thinley Kalsang, a wealthy Tibetan socialite and elected member of the NY/NJ Tibetan Community Association, was using his finances, social influence, and political connections via South India, to support Speaker of the Tibetan Parliament and present Sikyong candidate, Penpa Tsering. There are serious questions about Speaker Penpa Tsering’s influence on the internal politics of the New York based Tibetan community, and eventually the internal disintegration of Tibetan Youth Congress of NY/NJ.
During this investigation, reporters looked for a connection with Penpa Tsering’s political influence, in particular his relationship with Thinley Kalsang. Sources have spoken of their lengthy friendship and business ties during their years together in South India but later more information led to a ground-breaking allegation.
THE RING
Kalsang, has been named repeatedly by sources as “the front man” of a complex human trafficking and visa broker ring, operating several decades to date. The New York City Tibetan Outreach Center, located on 3560 74th St. Apt 707 in Jackson Heights, Queens, has been functioning as the legitimate business front for unlicensed immigration “consultancy services”, all under the ownership of Kalsang. According to several non-profit watchdog websites, the tax-exempt status of the Outreach Center was revoked after failure to register with the IRS. One site claims that the IRS had not received tax-exempt forms from Kalsang going back three years since 2011.
New York City Tibetan Outreach Center Inc in Jackson Hts, New York (NY)
Nonprofit Profile for NEW YORK CITY TIBETAN OUTREACH CENTER INC 2015-10-12 12-15-38
Working as a multi-lingual translator, Kalsang told his “clients” that he was “employed by the Department of Homeland Security”, to quell any suspicion or worry that Tibetans may have about the nature of his work. Kalsang is well known at the Immigration and Natural Services Court in New York City. Several hundreds, if not thousands of unsuspecting refugees with Registered Foreigner status in India have been lured into Green Card scams, and false promises of Visas under the guise of this ‘non-profit’.
Kalsang’s associate and supposed “mastermind” behind the ring was identified as ‘Lhakpa Tsering’, also working as an interpreter in New Delhi, India. Sources claim that Lhakpa was pushed out of a well-established Tibetan business based in South India, called ‘Paljor Handicraft’, after his business partners knew of his illegal activities.
Amdo Lobsang Phuntsok, aka ‘Lobo’, has also been identified within the ring as being the main handler in smuggling Tibetan refugees from India, starting the process by shuffling them to New Delhi airport with false passports and forged documents. ‘Lobo’, a shadowy character in the Tibetan underworld, was publicly arrested in John F. Kennedy airport in 1985, for heroin trafficking and distribution. His dangerous connection to a Kashmiri heroin syndicate eventually forced his hand, where he made a secret deal to become a confidential informant with the Drug Enforcement Agency, and was later released without being charged publicly. Like Lhakpa Tsering, the supposed “mastermind” behind this ring, little is known of his whereabouts within India.
Upon arrival in John F. Kennedy Airport, New York, Thinley Kalsang or a trusted associate would acquire all the necessary documentation to complete the smuggling route. Tibetans who had finished their travel circuit to New York often had their passports confiscated and were forced to work to pay off any accrued debt under the threat of being “reported to the INS and the Department of Homeland Security”. Kalsang also encouraged many Tibetans to lie on their INS forms, which has led many refugees to be deported as a result of his illegal “consultations”.
THE DELEGATES
The most important source reporters spoke with provided information about the connection with Penpa Tsering and Thinley Kalsang, and had detailed information about Penpa’s delegations arriving in the United States, using it as cover for the human trafficking ring. ‘Delegates’ posing as Ministers of the Tibetan Parliament were taken to the United States, dropped of at JFK or LaGuardia airport and then directed to Kalsang’s Outreach Center where they could later be provided false documents and ‘legal consultation’.
In the past 15 years Tibetans have had great difficulty obtaining visas from the US Embassy in India and Nepal. But Penpa Tsering is always able to obtain visas because he is in an official with the Tibetan Government in Exile, and therefore he can get US visitor visas ‘delegations’ to the US easily. Tsering has travelled at least twice with such groups to New York. U.S. Law Enforcement agencies were also informed (by several victims) of this in 2014 and began a slow but lengthy investigation. While the current criminal investigation is still ongoing, several victims of this trafficking ring have refused to come forward due to Kalsang’s recent diagnosis of cancer and potential heart surgery.
THE PAPER TRAIL
This smuggling ring’s operation grew to the extent that it could no longer conceal the paper trail, and hide the illicit money being received by Tibetan refugees across the world. Kalsang is known to launder the money through legal gambling tournaments in Atlantic City and various Real Estate investments across the NY Metro Area. Kalsang has been photographed in Atlantic City casino’s with up to $180,000 worth of poker chips, competing in tournaments that sources claim, “were part of his money laundering operation”. While Kalsang admits to his friends and the general public that he is a “compulsive gambler”, Tibetans did not know that he was using his gambling activities to wash the dirty cash, often in sums of $30,000 or more. On the Borgata Poker Open tournament (Fall 2012) website it read (see photo): “Thinley, facing a 21k bet, may have had the $10,000 bonus on his mind when he calls from his 180k stack, but unfortunately is drawing dead. Smith’s set of jacks is best against Kalsang’s A 10, which hits two pairs on the river. Smith doubles on the hand and is at 60k, while Kalsang is still one of the bigger stacks at 160k.”
$180,000 in poker chips – Borgata Poker Open 2012 – Atlantic City, NJ
$180,000 in poker chips – Borgata Poker Open 2012
– Atlantic City, NJ
A basic Google search of ‘Tibetan Visa Scams’ will show many stories of Tibetans falsifying papers and data in their attempts to enter the United States. Thinley Kalsang and ‘Lobo’ have exploited the fears of desperate displaced Tibetan peoples. It is well known that Tibetan Visa scams are well known to US Embassy and Immigration personnel, which is why Tibetans struggle to obtain legitimate tourist visas.
The full story of this trafficking ring may never be known to the general Tibetan public or US Law Enforcement agencies, but with reliable sources and information collated over several years, readers can make their own conclusions as to what has occ
Jamyang Norbu la,
Is it not a good idea to write a thanks letter (to those 27 signed supporters) signed by all individual intellectuals like you and, organization TNC etc, who advocates for independent, thanking them for the open letter move and asking them to continue like moves more in future, so that our precious democracy which His Holiness gifted us can’t be gambled as a tool for power struggle; so that this sort of arbitrary encroachment on democracy can be checked and controlled. Thanks.
I am ashamed to of what is has become of the nascent Tibetan democracy (of costs). Moderate and thinking Tibetans,including the majority in Tibet under Chinese rule, knew all the time, die-hard cold cronies of the the old Tibet (the the fall of the the rule of the glorious kings)which is represented sadly by the Gaden Phodang, resurrected by one other than the Dalai Lama himself must bear full responsibility of the recent friction in the exile Tibetan community.
Hastening this saga of pseudo modern democracy – with the so-called Tibetan character – that Dharamsala fermented is fuled by the sudden rise from no where of the currently glory-seeking Sikyong Lobsang Sangay, and associates now spread in the four corners of the exile world.
Add to it the divisive dog mouth of speaker Pema Tsering. If what is unfolding in the diaspora Tibetan world is any indication -where the Sikyong is culpable of a host of sensitive and gangerous issues, like his China-lady link, his mortgage issue, the Washington Office of Tibet lobby scandal…has rocked the Tibetan community.
Pempa Tsering is trying all the tricks under the sun to defeat Sangay be using the Dalai Lama as teh ultimate weapon to thwart off attacks and accusations – ranging from from drinking and womenizing and gambling and beyond….
All of this give a the three new candidates to solidify their support, especially Tashi Wanng who might evenfully win, and take the Lukar and Phuntok in the cabinet.
Change is what the Tibetan people need and want.\
The 27 brave Tibet supporters have awakened the Tibetan conscience.
Wake up, and change for CHANGE.
“May I see the “Clause” about impeachment? Or is this something in your head?”
Haha, had you going there White!
Ofcourse it’s in my head. I spun it out of whole cloth. Impeaching the Dalai Lama, isn’t that such a ridiculous notion?
Lukar Jam is getting raked over the coals for addressing His Holiness as old monk, elder monk, or whatever – which may have cost him the election. Now imagine, exile parliament, lets say, for good and valid reasons, decided to act upon such a clause stipulated in the CTA charter, to impeach Kundun? I suspect the rabid yokels will be whipped up by fear-mongers like Thupten Thokmey and ilk, til the masses foam and froth – freak out – burn villages and rape livestock.
But you saw through my lies White. Buddha bless you. You know you’re not as dumb as everybody thinks you are. I feel closer to you today.
Oh, hey! I drank a little Tulku urine last night cos of my flu. Tasted like cider. Quite medicinal, slept like a baby for a change. I’ll be sure to send you a bottle White. Enjoy lo.
I thought some people have problem with Zamdhong Rinpoche because he is a monk who might have totally different mentality, different way of thinking. But I could never guessed why people have problem with Penpa Tsering and Lobsang Sangye who are the product of modern civilization, well educated and well experienced. More over, there are many educated people working at CTA.
Anybody who rather believe in Lukar Jam who is self proclaimed researcher, no apparent academic background, is absurd to say the least.
There is something to learn from this Open Letter by many people here including Jamyang la himself. I do not have slightest problems with this kind of letter. This is how people should approach the problem. This is called disagreement Not disrespect or dislike. People can make their points through proper channel and responsible authority has to do the explanation.
Lobsang Sangay will win no matter what? Yes, he is shady and might have China connection. But how is this a problem? Aren’t others also want to join China club. In fact, Lobsang Sangay succeeded in speeding up the process. Now others can join Chinese communist party and take any number of foreign trips. So, what is wrong. I urge you all to vote for Lobsang Sangay.
The truth is that there is no Democracy under Theocracy. Only DemoCrazy.
BTW, with a state religion and one party alone is called “Fascism.” Please check the definition of it.
China is preparing red carpet welcome for MWA advocates. Because according to Rangzen walas, MWA is simply joining the China without precondition.
What the hell did I just read???
Penpa Tsering smuggling people into US for his pal Thinley Lamsang!! Did I just read that right or am I inganing things??
As we all know, China has been blaming everything for Dalai Lama in the last 60 years. China does not even recognize there is a Tibetan issue. For China everything is created by Dalai Lama (“Dalai clique”) for his own gain, for his own power and whenever there are protests in Tibet, it is instigated by Dalai Lama that includes self immolations. Dalai Lama is labeled as separatist. Despite of Dalai Lamas’ sincere effort to solve Tibetan issue through mutually beneficial resolution, China has been ignoring the new effort and continues with their political propaganda. On the other hand, China has been claiming that Tibetan people are happy under Chinese rule and there are no issues. Up until now whole Tibetans are united behind the Dalai Lama, it has been handy for China to blame Dalai Lama for everything.
Now I am really wondering what is going through China’s head to see people like Jamyang Norbu and Lukar Jam and whole new generations coming up demanding full independence of Tibet. Politically these people stand against Dalai Lama. These people think Dalai Lama’s political approach is wrong and failed. So China cannot blame Dalai Lama for existence of Rangzen advocates.
In a sense, Rangzen advocates are smack on China’s face because these people naturally falsify China’s claim in regards to Tibetan issues and Dalai Lama in the last 60 years.
WHITE aka wiseman of Umae lam wrote:
” Now I am really wondering what is going through CHINA’s HEAD (sic) to see people like Jamyang Norbu and Lukar Jam and whole new generations coming up demanding full independence of Tibet.? ”
How many of Tibetans think like this moron, raise your hand in front of your mirror?
This shows the extend of our political immaturity. Read Sun Tzu’s ” Art of War” . China is a multi-headed monster. There is nothing like ” what is going through China’s Head ” like single head.
I will tell you what is going through their multiple heads and what they have been doing and will do in future. Xi Jinping gives assignment Like this:
1. Official 1: Criticize Dalai Lama as much as possible.
2. Official 2 : Question Dalai ‘s sincerity on wanting to accept Chinese rule.
3. Official 3 : instigate Shugden followers and do as much damage To Dalai’s reputation. Spend as much money as needed.
4. Official 4 : Praise Buddhist principles of peaceful co-existence and build a network of Buddhist nations, Nepal, Burma, Sri Lanka etc. promote fake Panchen and isolated Dalai Lama.
5. Official 5: Go and build network with leaders of exile community and try to gauge their strength and weakness and cultivate future Lobsang Sangay. If possible bring them to visit China. ( will be funded through our embassy in Nepal, which is already doing good work.)
6: Official 6: Pose yourself as a true believer in Tibetan Buddhism and secret fan of Dalai Lama and make him believe that Xi Jingping is different and if Dalai Lama compromise more, things will be resolved in matters of minute and by a single phone call.
7: Official on special assignment : Monitor Tibetan election. Criticize Dalai Lama by questioning his sincerity on giving up Tibetan independence. Link him to Lukar Jam’s candidacy. Criticize Dalai that by not STOPPING Lukar Jam, Dalai is indirectly promoting Tibetan Independence. Know that, here we (China) will achieve TWO IMPORTANT thing:
A) This Lukar Jam will never get elected. B) If Dalai and our Sangay stops Lukar Jam by using some election rules loop holes, then we will be able to prove that so-call system of Democracy Dalai claimed to have built for the past 50 years will be exposed as total sham. So, know that right now this is important. Good job boys or girls( here Xi Jinping winks at the tall beautiful lady with long dark shinning hair whose special assignment is Code named ” massaging Sangay”
White : get some education. This is how China thinks. Get out of your moronic mindset.
A day before the latest hunger strike in New Delhi was wrappe up, Sikyong Sangay paid a visit on his way to America, and stressed his roots in the TYC, and therefore, its stance on Tibet. Definitely a move to align with Rangzen advocates a week prior to the primary elections.
On the contrary, His Holiness, whole returning from America, avoided, leave aside visiting, those on hunger strike.
Although His Holiness is above elections, this sends a message that he is not with those on hunger strike. He know the futility of the strikes, and against the Middle Way Approach.
Amazingly, Sikyong’s latest visit to American is quickly followed by the disturbing story of human trafficking and related crimes speared by one Thupten Kalslang and cohorts, and revealed Pempa Tsering’s connection with illegal ring. What a coincidence. Perfect conspiracy!
Well done Ambovas. This is how you disgrace His Holiness the Tibetan people.
The immediate outcome. Pempa Tsering’s Sikyong bid is in trouble. He is sure to face investigation come the next parliament session.
He has promised not to boycott the parliament again. What now……
I like #25 Karma Tengkyong Wangpo’s comment.
Intelligent, witty and very relevant. Xi’s assignments sound so very plausible.
TCL
Allegations Against Lukar Jam Unfounded
posted 10 hours ago by The Tibetan Political Review By Ogyen K. Gchenpa
With exile election fever being unprecedentedly high, our tiny community has gone abuzz. Politically charged Tibetans are filling wherever possible with political discussions. Such exceptional show of interest by the ordinary people in an election in this scale is rather unheard of in the past. This is mainly because of the election saw, for the first time, someone with an entirely different political ideology joining the race. When convention encounters change, outcry is certain.
One of the most important principles of democracy is pluralism, to accommodate differences and agree to disagree. But looking at the denigrations directed at Lukar Jam, an ardent believer of Rangzen (complete independence for Tibet), at the cost of our democracy, we need to still fight for democracy from the conservative circles of our society. His Holiness has given democracy to us as a gift, but those who are entrusted with its delivery seem to have hijacked it on the way, and tag anyone who actually wants it as anti-Dalai Lama.
Lukar Jam is a man of principles, and ready to endure all the disdain and vilification to live his beliefs. Who, among the conservative segments of community, dares to do this? To believe in something and not to live it is dishonest, and Lukar is challenging this dishonesty and subservience that hits exactly at their Achilles heel that costs him all sorts of character assassinations from the conservatives and their accomplices.
There are multiple unfounded allegations and accusations on the social networks like Facebook, Twitter, We Chat, Whats App etc. These rumor-mongers are the chief culprits that hinder the growth of our democracy. With the preliminary polls a few days away, it is necessary to explain and clarify these malicious allegations for a fair election:
La-rgan:It is widely circulated on the net that Lukar has referred His Holiness as la-rgan in one of his earlier writings, and people are made-believe that this is disparaging of His Holiness. “la” is the abbreviation of “lama” meaning “teacher”, “rgan” literally means “old” or “senior” but may also mean “honorable” or “respected”, like in the case of “rgan lak” (teacher) even if the teacher is young, and in Amdo dialect, we call “pha-rgan” (father) and “ma-rgan” (mother). For sure, one wouldn’t call a teacher, father and mother in derogatory ways.
Traitor remark:He has been accused for calling His Holiness traitor. I’ve been closely following Lukar’s speeches since declaration of his candidacy. He has never said anything like that. He talked about this on two occasions, on VOT and RFA interviews. On both of these occasions, he didn’t talk about it voluntarily, rather he was asked whether His Holiness was a patriot or a traitor, and in response he said “this is something I don’t need say, out of these two options, which category someone who gives up (or cedes) the sovereignty of a country to another country belongs, political science has it clearly defined.” He never called His Holiness traitor and it is a thought-control to say what he said actually meant it or equals what he is accused of.
Related to this, tsen-me (disparagement) and sur-sa (sarcasm) are two catch-phrases constantly used by Lukar’s detractors to accuse him to be deploying against His Holiness. These detractors deliberately equate Umay-lam (Middle-way Approach) with His Holiness, just as anyone disagrees with Umay-lam is labeled as anti-Dalai Lama. This actually reveals their desperation after more than three decades of wrong policy and futile efforts. When they have lost everything (on our behalf), His Holiness is the last and only refuge, not even Umay-lam any more, making His Holiness their shield, and yet not willing to admit it. Till date, Lukar Jam has been the only one that visibly and sincerely attempts to fulfill His Holiness wishes and aspirations for the exile Tibetans to be self-reliant and independent of him.
Yak/horse theft:Some unscrupulous rascals spread vicious rumors online that Lukar was imprisoned for stealing a yak, and their confederates mis-copied it as a horse, which alone shows how hollow their accusations are. Lukar’s reason for arrest and imprisonment is for “splittist activities” for establishing an underground Tibetan youth organization for Rangzen, which is well-documented by TCHRD. Such blatant and gross untruth is an insult to all the Tibetan martyrs who have sacrificed for the cause of our nation!
Language problem:Some nitpickers have found language problems with Lukar Jam. One is that he doesn’t know English. While such trivial concerns don’t deserve a serious response, it may be worth reminding some the value of Tibetan language, in which he is so proficient that very few in exile can parallel. Those that misconceive that English is a precondition to become a Sikyong are certainly poor in Tibetan (and most probably in English too), because the premise to this logic has to be that Tibetan language is incapable of political discourses. Those who closely follow Lukar speaking would realize our language that we keep hearing from the CTA officials that are so monotonous and templated are actually so beautiful, rich and sophisticated. For me, for this reason alone it is worth hearing his speeches. Lukar’s prime-ministership will also hugely benefit the Tibetan language promotion drive that we’ve been striving for all these years in our schools in exile.
On the other hand, Lukar Jam’s fluency in Chinese is ignored. This makes it clear the true motive behind this complaint. It’s a huge bonus for a Sikyong to know the language of the enemy, far better than one that knows English and has to obtain information from third parties that the accuracy of the information can’t be guaranteed.
Another “concern” related to his language is his Amdo accent. Actually his accent is not purely Amdo, it has already been well hybridized. Those who complain about this actually have never seriously attempted to lend their ears. If this is so, then why majority people who are not from Amdo can understand perfectly while only few cannot? Even if it is not understandable (though it actually is), this cannot be a reason to put hurdles on his way to becoming a Sikyong. The powerful Chinese communist leader Deng Xiaoping, who is credited with the Chinese economic development hailed from Sichuan Province, where the dialect is very different from the rest of China, and Chinese people could hardly grasp his accent, yet he could do the work well.
The author resides in Tibet and is using a pseudonym to protect his identity.
བཙན་བྱོལ་བོད་མིའི་འོས་བསྡུའི་ལས་རིམ་གྱི་ལེགས་ཉེས།
བོད་ཀྱི་བང་ཆེན་ ༢༠༡༥ ཟླ་བ་ ༩ ཚེས ༡༨ དུས་ཚོད ༨:༤༩༠ ཕྱི་དྲོ།
བོད་ཀྱི་ཆབ་སྲིད་བསྐྱར་ཞིབ་ཀྱི་རྩོམ་སྒྲིག་ཚོགས་ཆུང་གིས་སྤེལ།
སྤྱི་ལོ་ ༢༠༡༥ ཟླ་བ་ ༦ ཚེས་ ༢༤ ཉིན་ཨ་རིའི་གྲོས་ཚོགས་ནང་བོད་དོན་སྐོར་གྲོས་ཆོད་ཅིག་གཏན་འབེབས་གནང་བའི་ནང་༼བཙན་བྱོལ་བོད་མིའི་འོས་བསྡུའི་ལས་རིམ་ལ་རྒྱལ་སྤྱིའི་སྤྱི་ཚོགས་ནས་དོ་སྣང་སྤྲོད་དགོས་དང་སློབ་སྟོན་ཡང་བྱེད་དགོས།༽ཞེས་འབོད་སྐུལ་གནང་ཡོད་པ་རེད། ང་ཚོས་ཤེས་རྟོགས་ལ་འདི་ནི་ད་ལྟ་བར་གཞུང་ཞིག་གིས་བཙན་བྱོལ་བོད་མིའི་འོས་བསྡུར་དོ་སྣང་ཙམ་མ་ཟད་སློབ་སྟོན་དགོས་པའི་འབོད་སྐུལ་གནང་བ་ཐོག་མ་དེ་རེད། འདི་ནས་ཤེས་དགོས་པ་ཞིག་ལ་ང་ཚོའི་འོས་བསྡུའི་ལས་རིམ་ལ་རྒྱལ་སྤྱིའི་སྤྱི་ཚོགས་ནས་དོ་སྣང་དང་མིག་བལྟ་བྱེད་བཞིན་ཡོད་པ་གསལ་པོ་རེད།
དེར་རྟེན་ད་ལྟ་བར་གྱི་འོས་བསྡུའི་བྱེད་སྒོར་མིག་བལྟ་ཞིག་བྱས་ན། སྲིད་སྐྱོངས་འོས་མི་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་དང་བཀྲིས་དབང་འདུས་གཉིས་ཀྱི་འོས་བསྡུའི་ལས་རིམ་དང་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཚུལ་ལྡན་བཞིན་གནང་གི་ཡོད་པ་ལྟ་བུར་མངོན།
ཁོང་གཉིས་ཀྱི་སོ་སོའི་ལངས་ཕྱོགས་ཁ་གསལ་ཡིན་པ་དཔེར་ན། ཆབ་སྲིད་བཙོན་ཟུར་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་ནི་རང་བཙན་འཐབ་རྩོད་དང་བཀྲིས་དབང་འདུས་དབུ་མའི་ལམ་ལ་རྒྱབ་སྐྱོར་བྱེད་མཁན་ཞིག་རེད། ང་ཚོའི་རེ་བར་རིང་མིན་ཁོང་གཉིས་ཀྱི་སོ་སོའི་ལངས་ཕྱོགས་ཐོག་བགྲོ་གླེང་ལྷུག་པོ་གནང་གི་ཡོད་པའི་ཡིད་ཆེས་ཡོད།
སྲིད་སྐྱོང་གི་འོས་མིར་བཀྲིས་སྟོབས་རྒྱལ་ཞུ་བ་ཞིག་གིས་ཀྱང་གསལ་བསྒྲགས་གནང་འདུག་ཀྱང་། ཁོང་གི་སྐོར་གནས་ཚུལ་ཁ་གསལ་ཅི་ཡང་མེད་སྟབས་འདིར་བཀོད་ཐབས་བྲལ།
སྲིད་སྐྱོང་གི་འོས་མི་གཞན་སྤྱི་འཐུས་ཚོགས་གཙོ་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་དང་ད་ལྟའི་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་རྣམ་གཉིས་ཡིན་ལ། ཁོང་གཉིས་ཀྱིས་ཁྱབ་བསྒྲགས་བྱེད་ཕྱོགས་ལ་ཏོག་ཙམ་བལྟས་ན་བཙན་བྱོལ་གཞུང་གི་འོས་བསྡུ་ལྷན་ཁང་གི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་གསར་པའི་ལམ་སྟོན་དང་འགལ་འགྲོ་ཡི་ཡོད་པའི་ཐེ་ཚོམས་ཡོད། ད་ལྟ་ང་ཚོས་དཔྱད་པ་བྱེད་སའི་གཞི་ནི་འོས་བསྡུ་ལྷན་ཁང་གི་སྒྲིག་གཞིའི་ནང་ཇི་གསལ་བཞིན་ཡིན།
སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་དང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་རྣམ་གཉིས་ནས་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་གི་སྐུ་པར་བེད་སྤྱོད།
ང་ཚོས་བལྟས་ན་ཁོང་རྣམ་གཉིས་ཀྱིས་འོས་བསྡུའི་ལས་རིམ་ནང་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་གི་སྐུ་པར་དང། བོད་ཀྱི་རྒྱལ་དར། དེ་བཞིན་བཙན་བྱོལ་བོད་གཞུང་གི་ལས་རྟགས་བེད་སྤྱད་ནས་འོས་བསྡུའི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་དང་འགལ་གྱི་ཡོད་པའི་རྣམ་པ་འདུག དཔེར་ན། སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་དང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་མཆོག་གི་འོས་བསྡུའི་ཁྱབ་བསྒྲགས་ཆེད་བཟོས་པའི་ངོ་དེབ་(Facebook)ནང་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་དང་ལྷན་དུ་བསྒྲོན་པའི་སྐུ་པར་མང་པོ་འདུག་ལ་དེ་བཞིན་ལྟེབ་ཤོག་ནང་དུའང་དེ་བཞིན་ཡོད་འདུག
འོས་བསྡུ་ལྷན་ཁང་གི་སྒྲིག་གཞིར་གཞིགས་ན། ༼འོས་གཞིར་ཞུགས་མཁན་སུ་ཐད་ནས་ཀྱང་སྐབས་དོན་སོ་སོར་འོས་བསྡུའི་རྒྱལ་ཁ་ཐོབ་ཆེད་དུ་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཡིག་ཆའི་ཐོག་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་གི་སྐུ་པར་དང་། བོད་མིའི་སྒྲིག་འཛུགས་ཀྱི་ལས་རྟགས། དེ་བཞིན་མཚོན་རྟགས་སུ་བོད་རྒྱལ་ཁབ་ཀྱི་རྒྱལ་དར་དང་བོད་ཀྱི་ས་ཁྲ་སོགས་གང་དུ་ཡང་བེད་སྤྱོད་མི་ཆོག༽ཅེས་དང་། གལ་སྲིད་འོས་གཞིར་ཞུགས་མི་སུ་འདྲ་ཞིག་གིས་སྒྲིག་གཞི་དང་འགལ་ཚེ་འོས་མི་དེའི་འོས་གྲངས་ནས་བརྒྱ་ཆ་ ༥ ནུས་མེད་དུ་གཏོང་རྒྱུ་ཡིན། ཞེས་བཀོད་ཡོད།
ང་ཚོས་བལྟས་ནས་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་དང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་གཉིས་ཀྱི་ངོ་དེབ་ནང་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་བྱེད་བཞིན་པ་དེ་དག་འོས་བསྡུ་ལྷན་ཁང་གི་སྒྲིག་གཞིའི་འོག་གི་(དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཡིག་ཆ)ལྟ་བུར་ངོས་འཛིན་ཆོག་པ་ཞིག་རེད། ཚོགས་གཙོ་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་དང་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་རྣམ་གཉིས་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་གི་འོས་མིར་ཞུགས་ཡོད་སྟབས་ཁོང་གཉིས་ཀྱི་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་བྱེད་སྒོ་དང་འོས་བསྡུའི་ཆེད་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་དབར་དབྱེ་བ་འབྱེད་དཀའ། དེར་རྟེན་ཁོང་གཉིས་ཀྱིས་ཐད་ཀར་༼ང་ལ་འོས་འཕེན།༽ཞེས་བརྗོད་ཀྱི་མེད་ཀྱང་གཞུང་འབྲེལ་ལས་རིམ་དང་གཞུང་འབྲེལ་ཕྱོགས་སྐྱོད་སོགས་འོས་བསྡུའི་ལས་གཞི་ལྟ་བུར་གྱུར་སྲིད་པ་ཡིན།
ཡང་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་མཆོག་ལ་ཐད་ཀར་འབྲེལ་མེད་ཀྱི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཆེད་ངོ་དེབ་(unofficial” Facebook campaign page)ཞིག་འདུག དེའི་ནང་དུ་གསལ་བཤད་བྱས་པར་གཞིགས་ན། ངོ་དེབ་དེ་(རྒྱབ་སྐྱོར་བས་མཇུག་མཐུད།)བྱས་པ་ཞིག་རེད་ཅེས་བཀོད་འདུག དེའི་དོན་ཅི་ཡིན་ཁ་གསལ་མི་འདུག སྲིད་སྐྱོང་མཆོག་ནས་ཀྱང་དེའི་སྐོར་ཁ་གསལ་གྱི་གསལ་བཤད་དང་འགྲེལ་བརྗོད་གནང་མེད་སྟབས། དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ངོ་དེབ་དེ་དང་ཁོང་གི་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་གཉིས་དབར་འབྲེལ་བ་ཡོད་པའི་ཚོད་དཔག་བྱས་ན་མི་རན་པ་མེད།
དེར་རྟེན་གོང་གི་གནད་དོན་དེ་དག་འོས་བསྡུའི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་དང་འགལ་ཡོད་པའི་རྣམ་པ་གསལ་པོ་འདུག དེ་ལྟར་ལགས་ན་འོས་གཞིར་བཞུགས་མི་སུ་འདྲ་ཞིག་གིས་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་གི་སྐུ་པར་དང། བོད་ཀྱི་རྒྱལ་དར། བཙན་བྱོལ་གཞུང་གི་ལས་རྟགས་བེད་སྤྱད་ན། འོས་གྲངས་ཇི་ཐོབ་ནས་བརྒྱ་ཆ་ ༥ ནུས་མེད་གཏོང་གི་ཡིན་ཞེས་སྒྲིག་གཞིའི་ནང་བཀོད་འདུག
འོན་ཀྱང་བཙན་བྱོལ་གཞུང་གི་སྤྱི་ཁྱབ་འོས་བསྡུ་ལྷན་ཁང་ནས་སྒྲིག་གཞི་དེ་དག་ཇི་ལྟར་ལག་ལེན་གང་འདྲ་གནང་མིན་མི་དམངས་ཀྱིས་རིང་མིན་རྟོགས་ཐུབ་ངེས་ཡིན།
སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་དང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་རྣམས་གཉིས་ནས་གཞུང་གི་དཔལ་འབྱོར་བེད་སྤྱོད་གནང་མིན་སྐོར།
འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་སྒྲིག་གཞིའི་ནང། འོས་མི་སུ་ཞིག་གིས་ཀྱང་གཞུང་གི་ལས་བྱེད་དང་རྒྱུ་དངོས་སོགས་བེད་སྤྱོད་མི་ཆོག་ཅེས་གསལ་ཡོད། སྒྲིག་གཞི་འདི་ད་ལྟ་གཞུང་ནང་གོ་གནས་བཟུང་མཁན་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཆེད་གཞུང་གི་རྒྱུ་དངོས་བེད་སྤྱོད་མི་གཏོང་བའི་དོན་དུ་བཟོས་པ་རེད།
སྒྲིག་གཞི་འདི་དང་འགལ་བའི་ལས་གཞི་ད་ལྟ་སྤེལ་བཞིན་ཡོད་པའི་དོགས་པ་ཡོད། དཔེར་ན། སྲིད་སྐྱོང་འོས་མི་བཀྲིས་དབང་འདུད་ནས་འཕྲོད་རྟེན་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་ཕྱག་ལས་གནང་ཕྱོགས་སྐོར་རྐྱོན་བརྗོད་བྱས་པ་རེད། ཚུལ་མཐུན་འགྲོ་ལུགས་བྱས་ན། ད་ལྟ་གོ་གནས་འཛིན་མཁན་ཚོས་སོ་སོའི་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ལས་རིམ་གྱི་ཆ་ཤས་ལྟར་སྲིད་ཇུས་སྲུང་སྐྱོབ་གསལ་བཤད་བྱེད་རྒྱུ་དེ་རེད།
ཡིན་ན་ཡང། བཙན་བྱོལ་བོད་གཞུང་གི་དྲ་ཚིགས་(Tibet.net)་བེད་སྤྱད་ནས་འཕྲོད་སྟེན་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱིས་བསྒྲགས་གཏམ་ཞིག་བརྒྱུད་བཀྲིས་དབང་འདུས་ཀྱི་རྐྱོན་བརྗོད་བྱས་པ་དེ་ཁུངས་མེད་བསྙོན་འཛུགས་“false allegation”ཞིག་རེད་སྤེལ་འདུག འདི་འོས་བསྡུའི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་ལས་འགལ་བ་མ་ཡིན་ནམ། བཀའ་ཤག་གི་ལམ་སྟོན་འོག་འཕྲོད་བསྟེན་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་ལས་བྱེད་ཅིག་ནས་ལན་འདེབས་བྱས་པ་ཞིག་ཡིན་ནམ། ཡང་ན་འཕྲོད་བསྟེན་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་ལས་བྱེད་ཅིག་གིས་སོ་སོས་དང་བླངས་ངང་ལན་བརྒྱབ་པ་ཞིག་ཡིན། གལ་སྲིད་བཀའ་ཤག་བཀའ་དགོངས་བརྒྱུད་ལན་འདེབས་བྱས་པ་ཡིན་ན་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་མཆོག་འོས་མི་ཞིག་ཡིན་པའི་ཆ་ནས་ལན་འདེབས་བྱེད་དགོས་པ་ལས། ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་མཐུན་རྐྱེན་བེད་སྤྱད་ནས་ལན་བརྒྱབ་པ་དེ་ཚུལ་མཐུན་ཞིག་ཏུ་མ་མངོན།
བློ་ཕམ་པ་ཞིག་ལ་སྤྱི་ཁྱབ་འོས་བསྡུ་ལྷན་ཁང་ནས། ༼ང་ཚོར་མཐུན་རྐྱེན་མེད་སྟབས་འདི་ལྟ་བུའི་གནད་དོན་ཚང་མར་ཞིབ་འཇུག་བྱེད་རྒྱུ་ཤིན་ཏུ་དཀའ་བ་མ་ཟད། འཕྲོད་སྟེན་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་གསལ་བཤད་དེ་འདྲ་བྱེད་དགོས་པའི་རྒྱུ་མཚན་ང་ཚོས་ཤེས་ཀྱི་མེད།༽ཅེས་བརྗོད་འདུག གལ་སྲིད་སྒྲིག་གཞི་ལག་ལེན་བྱེད་ཐུབ་ཀྱི་མེད་ན་ཅིའི་ཕྱིར་བཟོས་པ་ཡིན་ནམ། འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་ཁོང་ཚོས་གཏན་འབེབས་བྱས་པའི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་རྣམས་འདེམ་སྒྲུག་བྱས་ནས་ལག་ལེན་བྱེད་ཀྱི་མེད་པའི་རེ་བ་ཞུ་བཞིན་ཡོད།
ཡང་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ནས་ཉེ་བའི་འཆར་ཨ་རིའི་ས་ཁུལ་ཁག་མང་པོ་དང་། ཡུ་རོབ། དེ་བཞིན་རྒྱ་གར་གྱི་ས་ཁུལ་ཁག་ལ་གཞུང་འབྲེལ་བསྐོར་སྐྱོད་ལ་ཕེབས་ཡོད་པ་རེད། འོས་བསྡུའི་སྒྲིག་གཞིའི་ནང་ད་ལྟ་གོ་གནས་བཟུང་མཁན་ཞིག་གི་གཞུང་འབྲེལ་བསྐོར་སྐྱོད་སྐབས་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་དང་འབྲེལ་བའི་གཏམ་བཤད་བྱེད་མི་ཆོག་ཅེས་བཀོད་འདུག དེར་རྟེན་སྤྱི་ཁྱབ་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་ཕྱོགས་བསྐྱོད་སྐབས་གཞུང་འབྲེལ་གཏམ་བཤད་དང་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་གཏམ་བཤད་དབར་ཁྱད་པར་ཇི་བཞིན་གསལ་པོ་བཟོ་དགོས། དེའི་རྗེས་གཞུང་འབྲེལ་ཕྱོགས་སྐྱོད་སྐབས་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་དང་འབྲེལ་བའི་གཏམ་བཤད་བྱས་ན་སྒྲིག་གཞི་ལྟར་ཉེས་པ་གཏོང་དགོས་པ་ཡིན།
སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ནས་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་བགྲོ་གླེང་ནང་མཉམ་ཞུགས་བྱེད་ཀྱི་མིན་ཟེར།
ཉེ་བའི་ཆར་རྒྱ་གར་ལྷོ་ཕྱོགས་དུ་ཡོད་པའི་སེ་ར་དགོན་པའི་ནང་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ནས་གཏམ་བཤད་གནང་བའི་ནང། ༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་ལ་མཚན་སྨད་ཞུ་མཁན་གྱི་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་གི་འོས་མི་སུ་འདྲ་ཞིག་གི་མཉམ་དུ་བགྲོ་གླེང་རྩ་བ་ནས་བྱེད་ཀྱི་མིན་ཞེས་བརྗོད་འདུག འོས་མི་དེ་སུ་ཡིན་གསལ་བར་བཤད་ན་སྐུ་ཞབས་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་ལགས་ཡིན་ངེས་རེད།
གཏམ་བཤད་དེ་ཐད་ཀར་གསན་མཁན་སྐུ་ཞབས་ཞིག་གིས་དྲྭ་ཚིགས་ནང་བཀོད་གསལ། ༼གྲྭ་དམངས་ཚོས་སྐུ་ངོའི་གདོང་པ་ལ་ཅེར་ནས་ཡིད་ཆེས་ལ་མ་ཆེས་དང་རང་གི་རྣ་མཆོག་འཁྲུལ་བ་ཞིག་ཨེ་ཡིན་སྙམ་ནས་ཐེ་ཚོམ་དུ་གནས་བཞིན་པའི་མོད་ལ།༽ དང་། ༼འོན་ཀྱང་ངེད་ཅག་སེ་རའི་གྲྭ་པ་ཚོ་བློ་མིག་དོག་དྲགས་ནས་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་མི་ཤོང་བ་ཞིག་མིན་ལ། དད་སེམས་ཆེ་དྲགས་ནས་རང་བཙན་འཐབ་རྩོད་པ་ཚོ་དགྲ་བོ་ལྟ་བུ་ཞིག་ལ་ཆ་འཇོག་བྱེད་ཀྱིན་མེད། ངེད་ཅག་གི་ཁོག་རྒྱ་དང་དད་སེམས་དེ་སྐུ་ངོས་རྒྱུས་མ་ལོན་པ་འདྲ།༽ཞེས་བྲིས་འདུག
སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ཀྱིས་བཀའ་མོལ་དེ་མགོ་རྙོག་ཅན་ཞིག་རེད། སྤྱིར་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ལ་མི་སུ་འདྲ་ཞིག་དང་སྐད་ཆ་བཤད་རྒྱུ་དང་མི་བཤད་རྒྱུའི་ཐོབ་ཐང་ཡོད་པ་ཞིག་རེད། འོན་ཀྱང་གལ་སྲིད་ཁོང་གིས་སྐད་ཆ་བཤད་རྒྱུ་མིན་པའི་རྒྱུ་མཚན་དེ་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་ལ་མཚན་སྨད་ཞུས་པ་ཙམ་གྱིས་ཡིན་ན། སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ཀྱིས་རྒྱ་ནག་གུང་ཁྲན་ལ་སྐད་ཆ་བཤད་རྒྱུ་ཡིན་ནམ་མིན། གང་ལགས་ཞེ་ན། རྒྱ་གཞུང་ནས་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་ལ་རྒྱུན་ལྡན་གྱི་མཚན་སྨད་ཞུས་པ་ཙམ་མ་ཡིན་པར་ཚད་ལས་འགལ་བའི་ཚིག་ངན་བེད་སྤྱད་ནས་དམའ་འབེབས་དང་མཐོང་ཆུང་ཁྱད་གསོད་ཞུས་དང་ཞུ་བཞིན་པ་རེད།
མི་འགའ་ཞིག་གིས་བརྗོད་གསལ། སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ནས་བཀའ་མོལ་དེ་ལྟར་གནང་དོན་ནི་སེ་རའི་གྲྭ་བ་ཚོའི་བློ་འགུག་ཐབས་ཡིན་ལུགས་དང། ཡང་འགའ་ཞིག་གིས་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་དང་ཐད་ཀར་བགྲོ་གླེང་བྱེད་འདོད་མེད་སྟབས་རེད་ཅེས་ཀྱང་བརྗོད་བཞིན་འདུག རྒྱུ་མཚན་ཇི་བཞིན་ལ་མ་ལྟོས་པར་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་ནས་ཁོ་བོ་རང་ཉིད་ཀྱི་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ལ་ཕན་མེད་ཀྱི་གྲིབ་ནག་ཞིག་བསྐྲུན་པ་རེད།
ང་ཚོའི་བསམ་པར་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་ལགས་མཉམ་བཞུགས་བྱས་རུང་མ་བྱས་རུང་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་གི་བགྲོ་གླེང་ཚོགས་རྒྱུ་ཧ་ཅང་གལ་ཆེ།
སྤྱི་ཁྱབ་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་སྨྲ་བརྗོད་རང་དབང་ལ་དོ་ཕོགས།
འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་གསར་པའི་ནང་གཞུང་འཛིན་མ་ཡིན་པའི་ཚོགས་པ་ཁག་ལ་(གཞུང་གི་ངོས་འཛིན་ཡོད་མེད་ལ་བརྟེན་)སྨྲ་བརྗོད་རང་དབང་མི་འདྲ་བ་འདུག དཔེར་ན། གཞུང་གི་ངོས་འཛིན་ཡོད་པའི་ཚོགས་པ་“recognized association”ཞིག་གིས་སོ་སོའི་འོས་མིའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཆེད་འགྲོ་སོང་བཏང་ན། འགྲོ་སོང་དེ་འོས་མི་རེར་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་གཏན་འབེབས་བྱས་པའི་འགྲོ་མགྲོན་ཁོངས་སུ་བརྩི་ཡི་མེད། ཡིན་ན་ཡང་གཞུང་གིས་ངོས་འཛིན་མེད་པའི་“unrecognized association”ཚོགས་པ་ཞིག་གིས་འོས་མི་ཞིག་གི་ཆེད་འགྲོ་སོང་བཏང་ན་འོས་མི་དེའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་འགྲོ་སོང་ནང་བརྩི་དགོས་ཀྱི་ཡོད།
ཚོགས་པ་ངོས་འཛིན་འདི་བཀའ་ཤག་ནས་གནང་གི་ཡོད་པ་འདྲ་པོ་ཡོད་ཀྱང་། དོན་དམ་པར་དེ་འདྲ་མ་རེད། བཀའ་ཤག་ལ་ཚོགས་པ་ངོས་འཛིན་གནང་ཕྱོགས་ཀྱི་ལམ་སྟོན་གསལ་པོ་གང་ཡང་མེད་པ་རེད། ད་ལྟ་ངོས་འཛིན་ཡོད་ཅེས་པའི་ཚོགས་པ་རྣམས་ཟམ་གདོང་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་བཀའ་བློན་ཁྲི་པ་ཡིན་སྐབས་དམིགས་བསལ་ཚོགས་ཆེན་ཐེངས་དང་པོའི་སྐབས་གཞུང་གི་མགྲོན་བརྡ་སུ་ལ་བཏང་མིན་ལ་རྟེན་ནས་(ངོས་འཛིན་)ཡོད་པ་དང་མེད་པ་ཆགས་པ་ལྟ་བུ་རེད། ཡིན་ན་ཡང་། བོད་གཞུང་སྤྱི་ཁྱབ་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་ཚོགས་པ་ཁག་གི་དབར་འོས་བསྡུ་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་བྱེད་ཕྱོགས་ཐད་དབྱེ་བ་བཅད་པ་ནི་དྲང་བདེན་དུ་རྩ་བ་ནས་མ་མངོན།
དཔེར་ན། བོད་རྒྱལ་ཡོངས་དམངས་གཙོ་ཚོགས་པ་ངོས་འཛིན་ཡོད་པའི་ཚོགས་པ་ཞིག་ཡིན་སྟབས། ཁོང་ཚོའི་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་འོས་མི་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་དང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་རྣམས་གཉིས་ཀྱི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཆེད་འགྲོ་སོང་ཇི་ཙམ་བཏང་ཡང། ཁོང་གཉིས་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་ཡིན་པའི་ཆ་ནས་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་གཏན་འབེབས་གནང་བའི་འགྲོ་སོང་ཧིན་སྒོར་ ༨༠༠༠༠༠ ནང་ཚུད་ཀྱི་མེད། ཡིན་ན་ཡང། བོད་རྒྱལ་ཡོངས་རང་བཙན་ལྷན་ཚོགས་ངོས་འཛིན་མིན་པའི་ཚོགས་པ་ཡིན་སྟབས་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་ལ་རྒྱབ་སྐྱོར་ཆེད་འགྲོ་སོང་བཏང་ན། དངུལ་འབོར་དེ་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་ཀྱི་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཀྱི་འགྲོ་མགྲོན་ནང་བརྩི་དགོས་ཀྱི་ཡོད་པ་རེད། དེར་རྟེན་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་ཚོགས་པ་ཁག་གི་བར་ངོས་འཛིན་ཡོད་མིན་ལ་བརྟེན་སྨྲ་བརྗོད་རང་དབང་གི་དབྱེ་བ་སྤྱད་ཡོད་པ་རེད།
བོད་རྒྱལ་ཡོངས་རང་བཙན་ལྷན་ཚོགས་ནས་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་སུ་དེའི་སྐོར་ཕྱག་བྲིས་ཕུལ་ཡོད་ཀྱང་། བློ་ཕམ་པ་ཞིག་ལ་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་ཚོགས་པ་ཁག་གི་བར་ཐོབ་ཐང་དབྱེ་བ་སྤྱད་མིན་སྐོར་གསལ་བཤད་མ་གནང་བར། ཚོགས་པ་ངོས་འཛིན་བྱེད་རྒྱུའི་ཐོབ་ཐང་ཁོང་ཚོར་མེད་ཚུལ་གསུངས་འདུག་ལ། གལ་སྲིད་ངོས་འཛིན་དགོས་ན་བཀའ་ཤག་ལ་སྙན་ཞུ་ཕུལ་ཞེས་ལམ་སྟོན་གནང་འདུག དེ་ཙམ་མ་ཟད་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་གསར་པ་དེ་ལྟ་བུ་ཞིག་བཙན་བྱོལ་བོད་མིའི་སྤྱི་ཚོགས་ནང་སྔོན་ནས་བྱུང་མ་མྱོང་བ་དང་། སྒྲིག་གཞི་དེའི་འོག་ངོས་འཛིན་མེད་པའི་ཚོགས་པ་འགའ་ཤས་ལ་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་རྒྱབ་སྐྱོར་བྱེད་ཕྱོགས་ཐོག་དཀའ་ངལ་འཕྲད་བཞིན་ཡོད་པ་རེད།
འཇུག་སྡོམ།
ང་ཚོས་ཚོད་དཔག་བྱས་ན། བཙན་བྱོལ་བོད་མིའི་འོས་བསྡུ་འདིར་དཀའ་ངལ་དང་གདོང་ལེན་འགའ་ཞིག་འཕྲད་ཀྱི་རེད། དཔེར་ན། གཞུང་འབྲེལ་ཕྱོགས་སྐྱོད་དང་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཆེད་ཕེབས་པའི་དབར་དབྱེ་བ་ཇི་ལྟར་འབྱེད་དམ། གཞུང་འབྲེལ་དྲྭ་ཚིགས་སོགས་བེད་སྤྱད་ནས་ད་ལྟ་གཞུང་འཛིན་པས་འོས་བསྡུའི་ཆེད་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་བེད་སྤྱོད་གང་འདྲ་བྱེད་ཀྱི་རེད་དམ། རང་བཙན་གྱི་ལངས་ཕྱོགས་འཛིན་མཁན་གྱི་མི་ཞིག་སྲིད་སྐྱོང་འོས་མིར་ལངས་ན་ཁོང་༧གོང་ས་མཆོག་ལ་ཁ་གཏད་པ་རེད་ཅེས་དབྱེ་འབྱེད་བྱེད་སྲིད་པ་མ་རེད་དམ།
འདི་ཚོ་ཚང་མ་བཀྲིས་པའི་སྔོན་དཔག་མ་རེད། འོན་ཀྱང་སྤེན་པ་ཚེ་རིང་དང་བློ་བཟང་སེང་གེ་རྣམ་གཉིས་ཀྱིས་གནང་སྟངས་ཁག་དང་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ཀྱི་ལྷོད་དལ་དང་དལ་ཁོམ་ལ་བརྟེན་ནས་འདི་དག་འབྱུང་བཞིན་པར་མངོན།
ལེགས་པའི་ཆ་ཞིག་ལ་ཀླུ་མཁར་བྱམས་དང་བཀྲིས་དབང་འདུས་རྣམ་གཉིས་ཀྱི་ད་བར་འོས་བསྡུའི་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཅུང་ལེགས་པོ་དང་ཚུལ་ལྡན་ངང་གནང་གི་ཡོད་པར་སྣང་། སྲིད་སྐྱོང་གི་འོས་མི་གཞན་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་ཀྱང་འོས་བསྡུའི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་དང་མ་འགལ་བར་དྲིལ་བསྒྲགས་ཀྱི་ལས་འགུལ་སྤེལ་གལ་ཆེ། ང་ཚོས་དེ་བཞིན་སྤྱི་ཁྱབ་འོས་བསྡུ་ལས་ཁུངས་ནས་ཀྱང་སྒོ་ཀུན་ནས་འོས་བསྡུའི་སྒྲིག་གཞི་ཆ་ཚང་ལག་བསྟར་ཡོང་བའི་རེ་སྐུལ་ཞུ་བཞིན་ཡོད།
To Kashag and Election Commission.
Qualify/legitimate to vote for Sikyong election is to have green book and those who do not pay green book is not allowed to vote tibetan election.
The is absurd and very denying of tibetan race. In this case then tibetans who has taken other national citizenship will certainly not qualify to vote for the tibetan election. Election commissioner himself is an American citizen, two kalons are indian and Canadian citizen. Majority of tibetans living in western countries are western countries’s citizen. Regarding tibetan election, all tibetans above the age of 18 are righteous to vote. I am paying for green book for every year but there are many thousands who do not or cannot afford to pay for green book. For this reason, no one has right to take away any tibetans political right. If there are any other previlage to put restriction to those who do not pay for green book and that is reasonable and acceptable but not allowing to vote for not paying green book is not acceptable.
See Lang: Astute insight. Penis Tsering has been quietly working with the Utsang kyitue to get himsrlf more votes and causing serious concerns for Lobsang Sangay. Now Lobsang Sangay is once again playing the Rangzen card after repeatedly calling for Middle way himself and even gone beyond to offer democracy too. Not to mention he has willingly declared himself as an Overseas Chinese even before he election. Only the most idiotic mind will fall for his charm again, and like a battered wife, run back into his arms. Never again!! But his sleek move to come out with Penis Tsering human smuggling conveniently helps him at least stir up trouble for Penis Tsering. Already his pal Thinlay kasang is on YouTube clearing his “name”. Unfortunately for him, several people have come out on FB to testify against him, it is backfiring. He should have kept his stupid mouth shut. People like him who conspired to destroy Rangzen Org like TYC deserve to get their karma.
And in this corner, we have this shameless dickhead whose personal life story is downright shameful and black eye to the community itself. But Amdowas don’t seem to mind such people, reekecting again and again, along with the other lady chitue who stole money. And once again Penis Tsering blocks Lukar’s legitimate claim to the now vacate seat even the law was already passed and it was already practiced by North America chitue when One became Kalon. He did all that because he doesn’t like Lukar. What do you think this arrogant person will do when he become the PM?
Now this makes Lukar the most honest and desirable candidate. I have nothing bad to say about the other two. I will pick them over Lobsang sangay and Penis Tsering. Lukar is someone who is driven by truth and passion. He is not after fame or wealth. A person like would ensure what he endured of he didn’t have a clear determination and belief in the righteousness of his cause. And a person like him would stick around in gankyi with all the hostile environment if he was aftr fame and wealth. He could have easily declared himself Chinese back in Tibet and made himself very very rich like paying off $225,000 mortgage in a week.
@25
Cool down man. I did not say anything negative. Only person could get upset with my comment is China. By the way you did not list China’s mindset against up-spring of Rangzen advocates. In fact, this is my question.
Rangzen or MWA, for China does not matter, is this what are you saying?
Most people here, like to insult people with all kinds of label, idiot, moron, lunatic, delusional and so on. Do I know how to use these kinds of words? absolutely. If any of you want to test me, you are welcome. Let me know.
Ok White, let’s hear your comment on Penpa Tsering and alleged human smuggling while being chairperson. What is your position in it IF it is proven to be true.
IT IS TIME FOR CHANGE.
LET’S US VOTE LUKAR FOR SIKYHONG AND LIKE MINDED CHITUES.
FOR THE SAKE OF TIBET, LET US BE BRAVE WHEN WE KNOW WE ARE CORRECT.
FOR THE SAKE GENERATION TO TIBET TO COME, LET US FACE THE DANGER OF A WRONG ADMINISTRATION.
TIBET IS BURNING AND CRYING FOR RANGZEN.
LET’S POSTONE OUR INIVIDUAL SALVATION(THARPA) FROM EARTH, AN HASTEN THE LIBERATE TIBET FIRST.
IF WE WANT CHINA TO TALK TO US, WE MUST ACKNOWLEDGE TO THE CHINESE THAT RANGZEN IS WHAT WE WANT.
White:
Irrespective of whether you say something directly or not, you are one person with a grudge and hatred for Rangzen followers. It is reflected clearly in your ” tone”. Just take in your six sentence post # 32, where you wrote :
” By the way you did not list China’s mindset against UP-SPRING of Rangzen advocates. ”
What are you trying to imply? You are trying to imply majority of Tibetans have given up Rangzen long time and hence the ” up -spring” ? Do you think 1.2 millions Tibetans died for Umae Lam ? Umae lam is a recent invention and Xi Jinping recently said that he, the President of China gives a s**t about it. Ok, yes, I forgot. For Umae lam, Xi’ no means there is still chance!
I can’t imagine that how people like you hate Rangzen followers, shugden believers more than China? Where is your moral fiber? Yet, in name of religion and lama, you say you are the moral one! My …!
“Master Li, how are we going to murder a man who laughs at axes?” I asked.
We are going to experiment, dear boy. Our first order of business will be to find a deranged alchemist, which should not be very difficult. China,” said Master Li, “is overstocked with deranged alchemists.”
― Barry Hughart, Bridge of Birds: A Novel of an Ancient China That Never Was
Upon reading this, my mind races back to our situation and could not get over the thought that, is China using umae lam advocates as ” deranged alchemist” ?
Lobsang Sangay fits comfortably into this description. Polished, but on matters dear to Tibetan nation, he is the captain of ” deranged alchemist” at the service of China.
@34
I am not here to defend any particular person except His Holiness. If Penpa Tsering or Lobsang Sangye are proven guilty of anything they must face the consequences. No doubt about that.
@36
If you make a assumption of my statement, I can not help. If you think what I said wrong or not true anywhere, quote me the line and I will back up my comments with logical reasons.
Naturally all Tibetans aspire Rangzen provided that is the option. Middle Way Approach is not chosen based on what we like to achieve rather it is based on our circumstances. Rangzen is nightmarish to China. China said it will fight to the last solder to keep Tibet part of China. Meanwhile His Holiness has approached China with MWA which is mutually beneficial but China refused to accept anything but their tyranny.
Most likely Lukar Jam is not going to win Sikyong this time but there is a full potential that Tibetans could demand complete independence by new generations and I am sure China is watching. What I was trying to imply is that China might be thinking themselves why we are not handling Tibetan issue when there is a much better opportunity to resolve this historical issue.
I did not mean anything negative towards Rangzen advocates.
#white: fair enough. But why do you feel the need to defend his holiness against Lukar Jam? Nothing he says is too radical nor dishonest. You can argue that Largen was disrespectful and I understand that. He already explained that he didn’t mean it in a disrespectful way and apologized if others took it that way. The traitor thing he never said it. He was simply pointing out the hypocritical way some exile politicians behave where when convenient Ngabo and Panchen lama were gyatsongpas and when they do the exact same thing, now it is not gyaltsonpa?? You talk about logic a lot. Is this logical per does it seen hypocritical? Be honest.
Trying to tie him to shudgen is not nice not correct. He is speaking about of freedom of religion for the majority of the shudgen people, not about those who sold their soul to the asshole Chinese. These people are gyatsangpas and if nothing else we should spit in their mouths. Please don’t mix the two. This is why people are calling you idiot. Lukar stsnd on these positions are nothing remarkable but a simple one of secular person who really believed in democracy and plularity of ideas and opinions. Yours is one of complete devotion and unwillingness to accept that kundun has made some political missteps. Nobody denied that kundun is precious and owes him immense gratitude. Simply saying just because people criticize just one or two missteps is disrespectful and ungrateful is not helping conversations. It shuts it down.
Ling Gesar
Couple of things, I never heard Lukar Jam praising His Holiness the Dalai Lama which is common to every Tibetan. I never heard he is expressing appreciation for His Holiness’s tireless work for Tibet. I did not even hear his apologies you indicated.
Referring His Holiness with “Lhargen” is obviously inappropriate and disrespectful and I am sure Mr. Lukar Jam knows that. All Tibetans know, most from their childhood how to express His Holiness, Kundun, Gyalwang Yeshe Norbu, Gongsa Choek and so on. Does Lukar have a problem with these titles? Why did he choose to call Lhargen?
Lukar himself said it people whoever reject independence is technically a traitor. You can listen his interview with VOT. Of course Lukar is not excluding His Holiness. Lukar talks like as if China has offered Rangzen and Dalai Lama refused to accept it for a different deal. I know and you know this is not the case.
Lukar himself said it we shouldn’t be treating Shugden followers like Chinese treatment of people during culture revolution. What does this indicate? How can he compare such thing? Every organizations have their own rules and regulation and monasteries are nothing different. Anybody wants to live in the monastery must follow the rules. Shugden issue has nothing to do with freedom of any kind. They can practice Shugden at their home or monasteries where there is no rejection. As simple as that. I made a good analogy with Drug addict and smoking behavior for Shugden issues in this blog. I could be idiot for many other subjects but not with Shugden issue. In fact Lukar and many people here seems no clue what they are talking about when it comes to the Shugden issue.
WHITE wrote:
” Most likely Lukar Jam is not going to win Sikyong this time but there is a full potential that Tibetans could demand complete independence by new generations and I am sure China is watching. WHAT I WAS TRYING TO IMPLY IS THAT CHINA MIGHT BE THINKING themselves why we are not handling Tibetan issue When there’ is a much better OPPORTUNITY to resolve this historical issue.”
You are kidding, right? Do you know the problem of people like you is? You are under the illusion that you guys have too much influence and impact, and people in your universe are the axis around which the world revolves. Your impact on the world : Zilch. Your impact on China: Zilch.
Why would China negotiate Tibet issue, when it is being served on plate? If His Holiness the Dalai Lama says, we are for ” autonomy” . Sikyong Lobsang Sangay undercuts His Holiness by saying, don’t bother, we will accept Communist party rule.
China is not “scared” of Lukar Jam, JN or any Rangzen followers that we will wage a war against China. China is scared that as long as their remains a group contesting China’s rule on Tibet and its legitimacy, nations and powers around the world including U.S.,Japan, India, Australia and others in conflict with China will help stroke problem for them. For you, Rangzen may not be an option. For people like me, Rangzen is the only option.
I will give you a scenario. Imagine Lukar Jam wins Sikyong election and Marco Rubio wins US presidency. With Shinzo Abe in Japan, Modi in India and Rubio in U.S. I assure you that Sikyong Lukar Jam will get reception and support than present dummy. Then China will court Tibetans far better than what they are giving to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Negotiation take place from position of strength not when you up everything. Mark my words, I will be proven right. I have seen much more than you Umae lam bats dare to see.
@white: if you listen hard enough he does praise him. Not as much you do but he has done it. He just doesn’t feel it is necessary to fawn over his holiness in every other sentence. He has said that during one of his talks in US. I don’t remember which one but he did.
On Larghen matter u and I are brought up differently and understand the lingo. Lukar is From a totallydiffrrent era and circumstances and was raised under the very boots of Chinese party. There is a huge diffeenve. Lukar has said he meant no disrespect by it and apologized if anybody thought it other way. He also mentioned that he even referee to his holiness as gyalwa rinpoche and another word I forget in the same paper but nobody brings that up. I am taking his word.
Once again he did not say technically his holiness is a traitor but that he is edging to that side. Big diffeence. And once again he never said hh is a gyatsongpa but we know who wants to continue to talk about it. As he mentioned it is not his job but the job of historians later on. Moreover what is the definition of a traitor please. Please tell us
What us with you and the shudgen people? Lukar is very clear in his stsnd and it the stsnd all secular people who live in a democratic countries should have and do. You know very well our community did act like the cultural revolution guards by engaging in all sorts of vilification and estrangement policies, including from the political leadership. This has caused immense harm to our community and only benefited our enemy. It might be a right religious decision but it was a downright stupid political decision. And rather than learn mfrom that mistake, you guys are bent on creating even further division by blacklisting Rangzen people and trying to destroy Rangzen orgs like TYC. And worse of all, the political leadership is lead by a playboy who can’t keep his meat in his pants and a drunk chairman who is a worthless and ungrateful shit who stole his benefactors wife and His wealth which led to the rinpiches death. Instead of uniting people they are busy causing it to rift further.
Voting for Lukar Jam.
I live on Tokyo. Just came back from voting. Voted for Lukar Jam. Feel sooo good!!
Lukar Jam openly standing for Rangzen has reignited the dying embers of Rangzen. This is just the start.
People will dare to think and talk of Rangzen again. Thank you Lukar Jam.
TCL
#44#
Only if Lukar Jam talk sensibly at the beginning, there will be more voters for him right now, but as it is, he don’t deserve my vote this time around.
And truthfully, there are people who’re asking me to download the speech of Lukar Jam, as they are very much impressed by his big talk. Initially, I implied with their request and gave them the full videos but not any more as I don’t trust him so much.
American Tibetans, vote for Lukar Jam and revive our rightful freedom struggle.
@41 Karma
You said, “China is scared that as long as their remains a group contesting China’s rule on Tibet and its legitimacy, nations and powers around the world”
Tibetan population around the world stands roughly 2% of the Chinese population. Lets make it smaller, 2 people contesting against 98 people. This doe not sound very encouraging. I am sure you heard this Tibetan story: An old lady was mad at Dhepa-shung(Tibetan government)all her life and the government did not even notice it. When contest is disproportionate this can be an outcome.
Palestinians against Israel and Kashmir against India have no shortage of resources and support for their struggle and their future does not look any better than our future.
What do we have? In terms of Rangzen, literally nothing, no resource, no support, no population to sustain for long struggle. Only thing we can do is hang on as long as we could and wait for the odds, may be fall of Chinese government, may be 3rd world war, may be mega earth quick, may be mega tsunami, some thing that could reshape human civilization. Even such scenario, our chance is still 50/50.
Having said that, if you are a genuine Rangzen advocate, I still salute for your courage and patriotism.
There are huge reason why Dalai Lama choose policy of MWA. It is not a policy of convenient.
Now my question to you is this, China is never going to give us Rangzen voluntarily, so we have to force China to give us Rangzen, would you agree with this? So what can we do to force China? What is Lukar Jam going to do to force China?
NORTH AMERICAN CHIDUE CANDIDATES
1. Shenpenn Khymsar from Vancouver BC (Rangzen)
2. Tenzin Rangdol
3. Lady Gaga’s Husband, Sangpo Gaga
4. Godruk Kalsang Phuntsok (be cognizant of Godruk as the neglect may have you voting for another candidate.
5. Kalsang Phuntsok
6. Tsewang Rigzin
7. Thinley Kalsang (the alleged human trafficker)
8. Pema (just says, Pema. Looks like a damn woman- don’t waste your vote.) lol
Voting later. Uninformed as I am with all these North American chidue candidates, I’m going with the first two. Go with gut feeling for a change, less headaches.
White : Karma T. Wangpo hired me to defend him. I am Vincent Gambini, the lawyer of ” My Cousin Vinny” fame. I will tell you this that you are totally brain washed. Whether you will agree or not, my observation is that :
You didn’t get good teachers to guide you, real educated, open-minded friends for company. You have being keeping company with people who think like you, believe like you. It just confirms your bias. It is called bias confirmation.It is not good for your growth. I can tell you, although you are condition to think like this, it is really boring. But on the plus side, you are very persistent . If you use your drive and energy on research, talking to people with different perspective, instead of blind faith, it will enrich your life.
That said, with apology to Host, JN; and other posters, I will easily refute all your statements, point by point. Although, I keep thinking that it may rub many the wrong way, to the point where many of you may think that I am an arrogant son of bitch, which to some extend is true, especially when someone of our own try to abuse what is my /our birthrights. I hold no grudge for Alak Amachok Rinpoche for returning to ” great motherland” but people like White telling us that Rangzen is a mission impossible, I need to refute. So, please bear with me.
So here you go.White wrote:
” Tibetan population around the world stands roughly 2% of the Chinese population. Lets make it smaller, 2 people contesting against 98 people. This doe not sound very encouraging.”
My answer is just take East Timor as an example. Read the following on East Timor. It is straight from Wikipedia.
“East Timor was colonised by Portugal in the 16th century, and was known as Portuguese Timor until Portugal’s decolonisation of the country. In late 1975, East Timor declared its independence but later that year was invaded and occupiedby Indonesia and was declared Indonesia’s 27th province the following year. The Indonesian occupation of East Timor was characterised by a highly violent decades-long conflict between separatist groups (especially FRETILIN) and the Indonesian military.
In 1999, following the United Nations-sponsored act of self-determination, Indonesia relinquished control of the territory. East Timor became the first new sovereign state of the 21st century on 20 May 2002 and joined the United Nations.”
Now, your second point is:
“I am sure you heard this Tibetan story: An old lady was mad at Dhepa-shung(Tibetan government)all her life and the government did not even notice it. ”
Here you are right. So, you are PROUD for Dhepa-shung ? That is one reason for our present day sorry state. Dhepa-shung, in its present form, Manchurian candidate LS led CTA that your are all set to defend, irrespective of whether it is right or wrong, is the reason that it will take several life time for gatekeepers like you to release how wasted your life is. Dephashung would have done far better, if they have heeded the anger of our ancestors – the old men and women. So, what is to be so proud about it?
Previously, you said that you even treasure the unwashed dishes of your old father. (Remember the proverb you quoted) Treasure the dishes, but clean and polish it first, so that you can proudly display it to the outside world as true treasure, not hide it under the bed with spit spoon.
Regarding your example of ” Palestinians against Israel and Kashmir ” I will reply later, if I find time.
Went to vote. Lots of Tibetans lounging about in small groups, excitedly chit-chatting, no doubt, aroused by the election fever.
Noticed our ballot box was made out of a cardboard box.
Sure they struck white paper over it but you can still tell its just a cardboard box. It wasn’t a shoe-box. More like an old vegetable box. Someone, with a brilliant stoke of inspiration, managed to cut a slit though the middle of the box.
In India, it seems the ballot boxes are generally made of metal. From a democratic prospective,that makes some sense, as, what people wrote on these otherwise worthless papers are considered sacred. And like all sacred objects, they need protection from corruption. For an unscrupulous person, a paper ballot box might be too tempting an opportunity to tamper.
In future, why can’t all ballot boxes be metal with locks on them, and only few holding the keys? How hard, inconvenient, or expensive can such a switch be?
Please rate Tibetan media for community service and best journalism. iCT Europe has a Snow Lion Free Press Award for Journalism. IF, they are to give it to Tibetan media, I will vote thus:
Best, unbiased election coverage Award for Voice of Tibet Radio.
Tibet Times (Bhod Kyi Dhu Bab) for their story on human trafficking of two Tibetan girl, who were ‘shipped’ to Africa, virtually died of starvation, rescued by real Tibetan patriot from NY and how they finally ” somewhat” happy ending in Canada. Tibet Times deserve Pulitzer Prize.
Tibetan Political Review for its honest, fearless editorial backed by good writing and well documented arguements.
Tibet Express ( Bhod Kyi Bangchen) for being the mouth piece of Sikyong Lobsang Sangay and his glorification.
Radio Free Asia for self-censorship. For successfully banning all Rangzen Voices. Forget Rangzen Award. US Congress and State Department Up Your Noise Award.
Voice of America Tibetan Service for being a station of personal gratification of only of its few of their ‘star ‘ reporters and promotion of their political friends. Specially the host of table talk who also meddles in creating dissension and division in NY/NJ TYC. He should win two awards: Most unethical journalist and best Mama-Shree Award. I forgot his name.
Voice of America and Free Asia TV/ Webcasters for their hatred towards Tibetan dress. I hate Tibetan Chuba Award.
What is the point of preliminary election? To find out the mood of the people? So that the establishment can nullify the election in fear that people might vote it out? …All in the name of HH?
! | October))
Walk the talk!!! Don’t talk big. Challenge the Chinese hardliners and not CTA. Grow up man???
Results of few early polls from India out now with Lobsang Sangay in the lead while Penpa Tsering trailing bridesmaid like.
Looks like Lukar Jam is distant third.
Both lead golden boys chosen by The National Democratic Party of Tibet. (The officially recognized apex party of God and Democracy.)
Do Tibetan people need Lobsang Sangay for a second term? of course not! But sadly, it seems He is what we deserve at this time.
Tibetan exiles will chose Lobsang Sangay because he does the thinking for them.
@49
Lets not talk about who is better educated or not and who is brainwashed or not. My position is you could be wrong and I could be wrong. Unbiased third person will judge.
In order to compare our struggle with any other struggles around the world, first, there has to be a recognition that Tibet is a occupied land, which country in this world recognize Tibet as a occupied land? I am sure you and I agree on having no use of violent act such as gorilla warfare against China. There is hardly any violence committed by Tibetan people in Tibet against China. Those self-immolators could have burned number of Chinese with them but they choose not to do. Despite of such a peaceful protest by Tibetan people, China turned Tibet into some sort of war zone ready to attack and kill anytime.
Imagine if we have some sort of resolution on Tibet in United Nations similar to that of East Timor. Best scenario: everybody says yes but China says no. And you know the result.
White,
A quote by Bulleh Shah, a sufi poet-
Jo na Jaane, haq ki taaqat
Rab na deve, usko himmat.
Tibetan still ignorantly and happily votes to Lobsang Sangay, despite having cheated and used the sikyong post to enrich himself. Never taking responsible to be vigilant/watchful on leaders for accountability. I really feel we, Tibetan, deserved all sort of agony and hardship. No wonder that we have suffered.
I still warn all that if he (Lobsang Sangay) wins again he will sell all of us, Tibet and Tibetan for anything.
Lobsang Sangay is a curse on us. God knows what collective sin we have committed in the past that we are cursed by this man.
Lobsang Sangay, you are a curse on us, Tibetan. God knows what collective sin we have committed in the past that we are cursed by you now.
It’s strange that, Tibetan still ignorantly and happily votes to Lobsang Sangay, despite having cheated and used the sikyong post to enrich himself. Never taking responsible to be vigilant/watchful on leaders for accountability. I feel so sorry for Tibetan. Politically we are so ignorant/incompetent and handicapped, incapable of judging leaders’ competency and genuineness. Feeding the same snake that stings. I really feel we Tibetan deserved all sort of agony and hardship. No wonder that we have suffered.
I still warn all that if he (Lobsang Sangay) wins again he will sell all of us, Tibet and Tibetan for anything. Please be careful of this snake during final poll.
Let’s hopefully challenge gthe Tibetan Election Commission to enforce the suggestions offered by the the observers of the Tibetan Sikyong and Chitue elections held on Sunday, October 18, 2015.
The Asia Democracy Network (ADN), the Asian Network for Free Elections (ANFREL) and Forum-Asia in association with Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy (TCHRD) presented their observation and findings at a press conference on Tuesday.
While applauding the increased public involvement in current electoral process compared to 2011 elections, the delegation made important suggestions that could help further consolidate EC’s integrity and enforce a uniform Code of Conduct, like leveling the playing field of campaign finance and allowing all independent and outside the recognized groups to campaign for a candidate in order to avoid accusations of partisanship and to strength the fairness of the campaign finance rules.
They also suggested the CTA should discount the voluntary contribution (Green Book) as a requirement for a person to exercise their voting rights, Ryan said, “While we appreciate the necessity of raising revenue, voting is a foundational right that should not be linked to a person’s having paid their contributions. Hopefully, CTA finds other incentives to encourage voters to pay the voluntary payment.”
Clarifying on the suggestions of the announcing the numbers of prime ministerial (Sikyong) candidates advancing to the final elections, he said, “We are less concerned about which Sikyong candidates advance to the next round. But having the criteria clear before the elections, when the results are not known yet, is crucial otherwise it opens the EC to criticisms. Therefore, the rules should be in place regardless of the results.”
This reported appeared in Phayul.
The recommendations are serious and musts be implemented immediately in order to avoid issue be the final elections in March 2016.
Lukar Jam made a bold step by daring to think and express and will contribute to democracy and plurality.
From the early prelim results, it’s interesting to note, Lukar Jam garnered big-fat-zero votes in places like Herbertpur, Kollegal, Nainital, Orissa, Patna, Simla, Dimapur, Tata Nagar, Bhandara.
Probably thousands of Tibetans living in those areas, yet blissfully unaware of Lukar Jam? Or did the Anti-Dalai Lama ball and chain people like Penpa Tsering placed around Lukar Jam’s neck proved most efficacious?
And where were the Tibetan media with their pretensions of progressiveness and modernity? Their boasts of informing the Tibetan public fairly and equally? They are so busy, playing cool and hip, in holy Dharamsala, even while one leg of that mountain gorilla is stuck in the tar pits.
The Tibetan media in India, the staunchest defenders of the status quo (when convenient, acting as if they aren’t), has taken it upon themselves to act and speak as if they are the very definition of what it means to be Tibetan. Even if they may not be “officially recognized” it looks like they have the green light, not only to fight China, but also to marginalize the minority Tibetan people, those who disagree with Umaylam government and Umaylam democracy.
They give themselves catchy names, of, Voice of Tibet, Face of Tibet. I heard another station coming soon, The Fart of Tibet. That’s right, one fine day, you will not only see and hear “real” Tibetans, you will also be able to smell and eat them too. All thanks to our Big-Brother Tibetan media from India.
Here is Canada, the opposition got far more media attention than the incumbent, kind of makes sense, since the new guy might be bringing with him new ideas. In India however, the Tibetan media wears the incumbent like a favorite thong.
Tashi Delek
Rate Tibetan media for community service and best journalism. Here in Europe, iCT Europe has a Snow Lion Free Press Award for Journalism. IF, they are to give it to Tibetan media,which one should win and for what achievement. My thoughts are as follows:
Best, unbiased election coverage Award for Voice of Tibet Radio.
Tibet Times (Bhod Kyi Dhu Bab) for their story on human trafficking of two Tibetan girl, who were ‘shipped’ to Africa, virtually died of starvation, rescued by real Tibetan gentleman from NY and how they finally had “somewhat'” happy ending in Canada. Tibet Times deserve Pulitzer Prize.
Tibetan Political Review for its honest, fearless editorial, backed by good writing and well documented arguements.
JN blog for several breaking news: 1. Kashag to organize Kalachakra aimed at his re-election much before Kashaq officially announced hosting Kalachakra. 2. Firing of Mary Beth Markey from ICT etc.
Rate Tibetan media for community service and best journalism. Here in Europe, iCT Europe has a Snow Lion Free Press Award for Journalism. IF, they are to give it to Tibetan media,which one should win and for what achievement. My thoughts are as follows:
Best, unbiased election coverage Award for Voice of Tibet Radio.
Tibet Times (Bhod Kyi Dhu Bab) for their story on human trafficking of two Tibetan girl, who were ‘shipped’ to Africa, virtually died of starvation, rescued by real Tibetan gentleman from NY and how they finally had “somewhat'” happy ending in Canada. Tibet Times deserve Pulitzer Prize.
Tibetan Political Review for its honest, fearless editorial, backed by good writing and well documented arguements.
Tibet Express ( Bhod Kyi Bangchen) for being the mouth piece of Sikyong Lobsang Sangay and his glorification.
Radio Free Asia for self-censorship. For “successfully” banning all Rangzen Voices. Forget Rangzen Award. US Congress and State Department Up Your Noise Award.
Voice of America, Tibetan Service for being a station of personal gratification of only of its few ‘ star ‘ reporters who promote their political friends. Specially the host of table talk who also meddles in creating dissension and division in NY/NJ TYC. He should win two awards: Most unethical journalist and best Mama-Shree Award. I forgot his name.
Voice of America and Free Asia TV/ Webcasters for their hatred towards Tibetan dress. I hate Tibetan Chuba Award.
Semi -bloggers category:
” White” for his persistent advocacy of ” I hate Shugden followers and Rangzen leaders like Lukar Jam” more than China!
Ari Dhonchoe for coming here as ” Ling Gesar” to trash Sikyong’s nemesis Tsoksto Penpa Tsering.
” Samten” for being the open minded compassionate Disciple of His Holiness the Dalai Lama for refusing to down loading Lukar Jam video for others.
Everything we have today; our exile life, CTA, Tibetan political status around the globe, our culture and religion, our media, international support, our identity as a Tibetan cannot be taken for granted. These are the result of dedication and hard work of so many people under the leadership of His Holiness in the last 60 years.
Future may not hold in our favor to sustain and progress as a nation, to stand against China and fulfill our well being. Political and financial support from international community can be cut off any time (the artery of CTA). Less than 25% Tibetan people pay green book in the West (spirit of Tibetan people towards the cause). Only few kids in the West speak, read and write Tibetan and most don’t even speak Tibetan (future generations). Tibetan monk’s population is dwindling like a hot Summer River (epicenter of Tibetan culture and identity). We all have to see the saddest day of our time; Dalai Lama is no more (Our beloved leader and symbol of our nation).
Our future is like a walking on a thin ice but many people here act like we have a solid ground under our foot and even compare ourselves with other sovereign societies. We have to be very cautious with ideology of “change”. In the history, “change” brought so many good things as well as unimaginable disaster. Nobody knows which direction we could be heading by changing status quo. For example, Mao was for “Change”. Mao wanted to destroy everything old. For him as long as it is old, is bad and must be destroyed. Please make no mistake I am not here to demonize people like Lukar Jam but many of his talks run parallel to Mao’s ideology in terms of “change”, (everything old is not good attitude). Lukar Jam has not a good thing to say about His Holiness the Dalai Lama, CTA, our current political leaders, our policies or any other achievements. Only thing Lukar Jam admitted as an achievement of exile Tibetan is that the platform he is using for his political campaign.
Anyway this is purely my view and I could be wrong.
@ 67 white
Once, one is awake he or she cannot go back to being a sheep. However, i understand your views and its not surprising when you see the bigger picture and almost 7 billion people are like that – sheeple. I’m just hoping that we would have a good shepherd this time.
@67 White:
You speak the language of the typical conservative mindset which has always hindered progress of our society. Your fear and concern may be genuine but it can also be interpreted as fear-mongering with the motive to hang on to power and status quo. It is not very different from telling Shichak Po Las and Mo Las that their houses will be taken away by Indian govt. if we seek Rangzen. Our future is not like we’re walking on thin Ice, its more like there is no ice to walk on. We are already drowning. Yet you guys insist on pretending that you can hold your breath forever. It is time to cry for help or start swimming to the shore yourself.
And don’t spread lies about Lukar. He has on many occasions said that he admire HH and that his contribution towards the survival of our people and our struggle is unquestionable. He doesn’t believe in constant praising like the other leaders who don’t have any substance to talk about do.
WHITE:
When China invaded our country in 1949 -50 and when lost it completely in 1959, Sky fell on Tibetans that year. Hence, Chicken Little or Henny Penny ( in India story) don’t need to worry any more about Sky from falling any further! It is time for us to rise. Rise we will, if our own don’t sell us.
Now let me play the role of psycho therapist and treat you from infantile fear that is eating you inside out. I will take your last sentence first.
You confess that : ” Anyway this is purely my view and I could be WRONG. ”
Yes, you are WRONG. Here is why: because you are refusing to accept the whole truth, although you know the real answer yourself.
Let me show. You wrote:
” Everything we have today; our exile life, CTA, Tibetan political status around the globe, our culture and religion, our media, international support, our identity as a Tibetan cannot be taken for granted. THESE ARE THE RESULT OF DEDICATION AND HARD WORK OF SO MANY PEOPLE under the leadership of His Holiness in the last 60 years. ” The most important word is SO MANY PEOPLE. No one is giving the credit where it is due. But you did. See you are a nice man. That is very important. Yes, it is the result of many people working hard in different capacity with real love of Tibet. Not one or few.
” Future may not hold in our favor to sustain and progress as a nation, to stand against China and fulfill our well being. Political and financial support from international community can be cut off any time (the artery of CTA). Less than 25% Tibetan people pay green book in the West (spirit of Tibetan people towards the cause). Only few kids in the West speak, read and write Tibetan and most don’t even speak Tibetan (future generations). Tibetan monk’s population is dwindling like a hot Summer River (epicenter of Tibetan culture and identity). We all have to see the saddest day of our time; Dalai Lama is no more (Our beloved leader and symbol of our nation).”
I have one word for you: Sky has already fallen and there is nothing to lose, except we give up our cause by Umae Lam or accept Lobsang Sangay’s whole sale our cause in lieu of mortgage payment for his house.
Don’t trash Lukar Jam. He is a patriot who loves Tibetan nation. Lobsang Sangay doesn’t and in fact, I can tell you he has got no respect for His Holiness the Dalai Lama. You fakey fake statement of ” Please make no mistake I am not here to demonize people like Lukar Jam” is not true. It is like slut saying I am not a prostitute. You are one and cheap one too.
It is true I do not appreciate Lukar Jams attitude, personality, and big mouth. He is a man in 40s, what did he achieve in his life that justify his narcissism? Lukar Jam is not happy with our status quo and he wants to un-do what Dalai Lama has done and invested his entire life.
I wasn’t comparing Lukar Jam with Mao. That was my message in my previous comment.
I have watched many videos of Lukar Jam and I have not seen him expressing anything good towards Dalai Lama, not even once. Please provide me the piece.
@70
Tashi
When I read your comment “Here is why: because”. I really thought you are going to give me some good reasons.
White:
You can’t make a single arguement without bringing in His Holiness the Dalai Lama. You are like those who wear big amulet of His Holiness the Dalai Lama as a protection, and refuse to take it off, even when they go to stool in bathroom. It is shame that you don’t have a single intelligent arguement otherwise.
White cannot use his grey matters. He has to always regurgitate Mantra.
Ever wise men aka White wrote:
“When I read your comment “Here is why: because”. I really thought you are going to give me SOME GOOD REASONS”
What is your definition of ” some good reasons”? Insanity, perhaps!
Psycho therapists trace this problem of ” my way is the right way” to undisciplined temper tantrums of the childhood behavior. A quite well known psychologist with close connection to Tibetan monks once said, she noticed “many” ( not all ) ex-monks have this trace of ” rash, arrogant ” behavior of my way is the right way type of attitude and she thinks, it because they lacked mother’s nurturing in their early childhood as they are taken into monastery at their tender age! I am not making this up. For whatever it is worth, I am sharing a part of random conversation I have with some of my friends. It is something for us to think about.
But I am going to be brutally honest with our friend White here. I think bathroom mirror is the only place, where White will find someone who will agree with your version of ” some good reasons” Yet, you accuses Lukar Jam of ” narcissism “?
If Lukar Jam have not disrespected His Holiness, if Lukar Jam did not open empty big mouth without laying out any tactical plan for Rangzen, if Lukar Jam did not show egocentric attitude without considering sensitivity of Tibetan people, I have no other reason to defend His Holiness and stand against Lukar Jam.
@75 Tashi
If you don’t know what “good reason” means, you are not qualified to debate.
You hastily said yes you are wrong. Because “you are refusing to accept the whole truth, although you know the real answer yourself”
What kind of reason is this? what kind of logic is this? what is whole truth? What is real answer?
You are quick to belittle me but far from good reasons.
Right and wrong is defined by logical reasons not because you said it or I said it or somebody else said it.
Lukar Jam, self proclaimed researcher, no academic background, no experience, no achievement in life dares stand against His Holiness. Dares to ask “can His Holiness make mistake?” “Am I not allowed to criticize?”. Yes he spent time in Chinese jail that does not make him anything specialty to become a leader better than Dalai Lama. China can imprison you even if you hold Dalai Lama’s picture.
If he is in Bhutan, Thailand, may be even in England and Japan and ask this kinds of question against king, monarchy, Queen and emperor, he would be in jail by now.
The whole point here is that if anybody believe Lukar Jam will succeed where Dalai Lama failed, that is the pure definition of “insanity”, “undisciplined temper tantrums of the childhood behavior” somebody who require treatment of “psycho therapist”.
@ 74 Karze la
I agree, White definetely needs to have an open mind. But i must say to all that reciting Mantra is very good. Not the unconscious murmuring as you go about doing your chores and looking around day dreaming. I mean the real high vibration producing sounds in your body that the monks pray in monasteries. Even Om ara pa tsa na dhi dhi.. ..would be very good for young kids to to recite in schools.
Nothing exciting this time . One good push last time enough to knock you down twice..hehe!
Why is the Umaylam Election Commission sending out vote counts for Samdhong Rinpoche and Gyari Dolma who are not even in the race? When I went to vote, I was told, wrong names, names crossed out, etc, will be considered invalid?
What kind of dirty political game is the corrupt Tibetan Election Commission playing now? Also, are they just going to ignore the 27 long-time Tibet Supporters who wrote An Open Letter to the Sikyong, Kashag and Election Commissioner of the CTA?
Not that it matters since Dharamsala orgs have always shown zero tolerance for honesty and transparency, they may do all manner of shit when it comes to election rigging.. even some of their own (election ‘observers’) starting to question them.
Tenzin Nyinjey, a researcher with the Tibetan Centre for Human Rights and Democracy said, “I can’t say it’s deliberate, but keeping Lukar Jam out, that’s what the amended rules have done, is a blow to democracy. Because, without him and his arguments for independence, there shall be no serious debate in the finals, since both likely candidates – Lobsang Sangay and Penpa Tsering- are middle pathists. Moreover, the fact that election commission in 2011 allowed the third candidate – Tashi Wangdi, a middle pathist in the previous Katri election, makes me wonder if the reason for keeping out Lukar was due to his political stand. After all, in 2011 the margin of votes between Tashi Wangdi and Tenzin Tethong was a lot more than 20 percent”.
All the Lukar Jam supporter should boycott the final Sikyong election. Game was rigged and playing field was not even. Best is to follow what George Carlin advised American people on election day.
” Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says, “They suck”. But where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality. No, they come from American homes, American families, American schools, American churches, American businesses, and they’re elected by American voters. This is the best we can do, folks. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out.
….I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don’t vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, “If you don’t vote, you have no right to complain”, but where’s the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You voted them in. You caused the problem. You have no right to complain.
I, on the other hand, who did not vote — who did not even leave the house on Election Day — am in no way responsible for that these politicians have done and have every right to complain about the mess that you created. That I didn’t have anything to do with. So when you’re having one of those swell elections that you like so much…on that day I will be doing essentially the same as you…the only difference is when I get done masturbating I’ll have a little something to show for it”.
Like US State ex-Secretary, Hillary Clinton on Banghazi, HH Dalai Lama will never have testimony in Tibetan Court in Dharamsala how and why Communist China invaded Tibet under the leadwrship of Gadhen Phodrang. We will never hear in depth, nor no Tibetan has guts to ask. The reason is very clear that still we do not have democracy put into practice. HH Dalai Lama had Panchen Lama spent many weeks in Bejing in 1954 with Mao and other leaders to talk and resolve the issue. Not only in Bejing, HH Dalali and Panchen Lama spent many days in New Delhi with Nehru and Chao Enlai in 1956 to settle Tibet issue. HH Dalai Lama had never disclosed details in depth to the Tibetans so far.
Well, the BIG Question is, Can the Tibetan Cause survive without the Dalai Lama? That’s the million dollar question the world is asking.
The 2 Million dollar question WE should be asking ourselves is, DO We want to tie our cause to the name of Dalai Lama so much that we put our cause to the risk of fading away after the Dalai Lam is no more. Do we want our cause to survive the name of Dalai Lama or not? Do Tibetan nation have an identity above and beyond that of the Dalai Lama? If the answer is NO, then that is the end of Tibet. We have basically committed suicide and we can’t blame China for that.
Just think about it OK guys… and gals too.
@79 Bhula
Now blaming game begins by Rangzen walas. We are gradually seeing what people of Tibet really want and believe. Of course Rangzen wala can not blame people because that would be stupid so they blame Election Commission. Surprisingly Lukar Jam got votes most in Dharamsala for now.
Any way you quoted my favorite comedian, late George Carlin. As usual its very funny.
@80 Jampal
You should question your parents and grand parents why they didn’t do enough to save Tibet. Many other societies around the world had worst governments ruled by brutal autocrats and dictators and still people managed to get over the obstacles and straighten up their life. What happened to Tibet is nobody to blame but whole society. We are collectively responsible for the lost of our country.
@81
I am not sure who you are asking those questions. Only China want Tibetan cause fade away with Dalai Lama. Nobody else. As a deepest respecter of Dalai Lama, I can say confidently Dalai Lama is for Tibet not other way around. Dalai Lama works for Tibet not other way around. Tibet produce Dalai Lama not other way around. If Tibetan cause fade away with Dalai Lama, the saddest person would be Dalai Lama himself. Make sure your head is clear about this.
Ok, take it easy, after all, exile Democracy is only over a half a century old. Even Samdhong Rinpoche’s underwear is older than that.
Those who don’t want to vote for whatever reasons, that is your right of choice. Maybe both choices seem equally bad. However, life is ever black or white as opinions make it out to be.
With all due respect to George Carlin, I believe that those people who still have some faith in genuine democracy, that it’s generally a good thing for Tibet and Tibetans in future, should throw their support (votes) in favor of Dr. Sangay, over Penpa Tsering la.
Sure it might be going with the best of the bad choices, and while I understand the people’s distrust of Dr. Sangay, (and I’ve raised few red flags myself over the years) I feel he is little more liberal than the conservative Penpa Tsering.
Whatever one may charge Lobsang Sangay la with, I don’t think he is faking when it comes to his passion for raising, the awareness of students, and the standards of education in exile.
If Dr. Sangay lose, we will be under the Samdhong-Tsering collation. Then we can just forget such notions as the “Evolution of Tibetan Democracy” and start worrying why our lungs are filling up with water.
Another good reason to vote for Dr. Sangay is because he seems to annoy the establishment. They think Lobsang Sangay la is more clever,cunning, corrupt then they themselves……..the nerve of this guy!! Get him out of Dharamsala!!
I could be wrong with my assessments of the man so if anyone wishes enlighten me, please do.
White and Shugden protesters are 2 sides of the same coin. Shugden group blame HHDL for all thats wrong and people like White cannot ever fathom having a life or enjoying basic freedom or necessities without invoking the name of HHDL. so 2 opposites but equally extreme.
Btw, I ‘m quite impressed with how many votes Lukar Jam has received. Of course I wish he had got more votes but considering that He was virtually unknown prior to this election, I think he fared well. and compare him to incumbent Lobsang Sangay who made sure he spent a good part of his tenure visiting each and every shichak from Tezu to Ladakh to Bandara and his numerous visit to the west- laying the ground work for this upcoming elections. He is always one step ahead. thats how his mind works. Other contender Penpa Tsering is also an old timer and known face so again no surprise there. But lets wait for the results of North America and Europe votes.
White: Let me ask you one direct question.
What do YOU think “can His Holiness make mistake?”
Give me a honest answer and I will give you a lesson in political science.
For North American election result, better ask Nechung ? The ballot boxes are managed by Sikyong Lobsang Sangay’s man Friday in Washington D.C.
Six million Tibetans can’t find a more neutral person than him.
I urge 27 Tibet Supporters who petition Tibetan administration to help us protect our precious vote from this thugs.
WHITE wrote: ” Only China want Tibetan cause fade away with Dalai Lama.”
Really? Think again. I think, this is again how typical Chicken Little thinks.
Even if China wish, China KNOW that Tibet issue /cause will NOT fade away with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
They know that Tibetans will NEVER accept Chinese rule. For them to legitimize their rule, they want Dalai Lama. They will try to find that Dalai Lama – one after this. So the struggle for future Tibet will move to control over the soul of future Dalai Lama.
White here reminds me of a very popular Tibetan story about an owl. Owl was asked why it’s head is flat. Owl replied, it had become flat after getting blessed by so many Lamas from whom it received lot of teachings. But Owl was also deaf. When asked why it was deaf. It said because it had never heard a sound of Dharma. Did you see the irony? Almost all the arguement White makes are self-contradictory like the owl story.
Respond to this only if you want Tibet to die with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Tibet was there before the institution of Dalai Lama came to existence. So the answer is yes we can survive for sure. RAngzen kyi hi hi
People like you and me (mango people) are not responsible to the loss of country, Tibet; and neither we have responsibility to struggle for regain – autonomy or Independent whatever. It’s the responsibility of those who were responsible for losing Tibet; not everyone’s. Some bastard aristocrats (Kudraks) dogs incompetent officials then in power sold off our country to reds and common Tibetan suffered the repercussion effects like hell. So the best we can do is take up citizenship of the country where you are residing; earn well and live happily. Nationalism is a shelter of coward. Common Tibetan were slaves of aristocrats (Kudraks) before invasion, and after invasion were obliviously slaves of Chinese, and if Tibet issue got resolved either by Middle way or RangZen, again common Tibetan will be enslaved by some elected leaders. So what cause is there for a struggle.
Just live your short span life happily wherever spot on earth your foot stands, feel that spot as your country and home. And give all responsibility of Tibet issue for time and history. And if things happen to worked out for our interests, good and well. If doesn’t then also all is well and good. What common Tibetan has suffered is the gift; legacy of some incompetent bureaucrat; and why the hell we have to pay for it now; why the hell our children have to pay for it after. Why we common Tibetan have to take the burden of struggle for a cause neither we (common Tibetan) nor our forefathers were not even remotely involved in or responsible for the loss of country. I just don’t have any sort of responsibility for the struggle. What happening in Dharamsala spectrum is disgusting? In the name of struggle; in the name of service for Tiebtan, people are busy in establishing a lucrative career by using all available means of official platforms. Tibet issue is a good platform to establish a good career in various industries like – media, entertainment, politics, religion, charity foundations, Individual figure and fame. Good – keep it up Tibetan.
People like you and me (mango people) are not responsible to the loss of country, Tibet; neither we have responsibility to struggle for regain – autonomy or Independent whatever. It’s the responsibility of those who were responsible for losing Tibet; not everyone’s. Some bastard aristocrats (Kudraks) dogs incompetent officials then in power sold off our country to reds and common Tibetan suffered the repercussion effects like hell. So the best we can do is take up citizenship of the country where you are residing, earn well and live happily. Nationalism is a shelter of coward. Common Tibetan were slaves of aristocrats (Kudraks) before invasion, and are obliviously slaves of Chinese after invasion, and will be enslaved by some elected leaders if Tibet issue got resolved either by Middle way or RangZen. So what cause is there for a struggle.
Just live your short span life happily wherever spot on earth your foot stands, feel that spot as your country and home. And give all responsibility of Tibet issue for time and history. And if things happen to worked out for our interests, good and well. If doesn’t then also well and good. What common Tibetan has suffered is the gift; legacy of some incompetent bureaucrat; and why the hell we have to pay for it now; why the hell our children will have to pay for it after. Why we common Tibetan have to take the burden of struggle for a cause neither we (common Tibetan) nor our forefathers were not even remotely involved in or responsible for the loss of country.
Look at what happening there in Dharamsala spectrum – its so disgusting. In the name of struggle; in the name of service for Tiebtan, people are busy in establishing a lucrative career by using all available means of official platforms. Tibet issue is a good platform to establish a career in various industries like – media, entertainment, politics, religion, charity foundations, Individual figure and fame. Good – keep it up.
Kunchok @ 91:
I rarely comment on people who more or less have same opinion like one I have. But, here I have to say, I hear you. I know the frustration you and many others feel. Although the ‘ tone ‘ and ‘ content’ of your comment conveys the hopelessness, but the very fact that you are here on this Rangzen blog pouring over your frustration about the our cause that is dear to you, me and others, (and to some extend White and other misguided, but about to be sold out) shows that you have real concern for Tibet. To me you are a patriot, who is never give up Tibet.
I think we can do a lot for Tibet that affect change. But our elected leadership is so rotten, specially the present one. Someone said his idol is Subasg Ghisingh of Gorkhaland Movement in Darjeeling. How fitting? A scholar from Tibet (?) I supposed asked Lobsang Sangay a very straight forward question in a video link that goes to the heart of the matter. He said, Sikyong failed to “capitalize” the death and ultimate sacrifice of Tibetans who took to self-immolation for the cause of Tibet.
Tibetans are literally burning and Sikyong Lobsang Sangay is hosting “political ” parties day in and day out with an eye to win election for last four years. His priority, RE-ELECTION.
I am a no fan of Kudrak nor am I one. But the tragedy of Tibet is, not that Kudraks lost Tibet but generations of Lamas, Kudraks kept our people willfully ignorant. The present leadership is still doing it. Libsang Sangay acts like he is the elected leader of some independent African country. He doesn’t have a sense that he is a Tibetan refugee leader.
My perception is that the enemy within is our worst nightmare than the “mighty” China. I believe there are hundred and one ways to humble China , but roads where horses (Lukar Jam/Rangzen advocates) want to stroll is blocked by asses( the Manchurian Sikyong and et. al)
I think we should do everything within our means for Tibet by teaching the next generation of Tibetans the best of Tibet as they learn the ropes of real world so that as they rise and shine, they willl hoist the flag of Tibet, rebuild it . Strive for education. Let us not loose hope. Let us rebuild it. I am optimistic.
Bhu la, Konchok la and Tashi la.
Thanks for sharing your frustration and agony which I understand having lived and shared the exile boat for many decades.
Please don’t forget that whatever is in store for Tibet, surely there will be some, all of us will be responsible for it because of our umbilical links of the mankind that lived and fashioned the Tibet that our parents inherited.
We might not live to be witness, but I am sure Tibet will rise once more……
I agree.
@86 Tashi
In exclusive of secularism perspective, yes His Holiness can make mistakes. As a human being nobody is immune from errors.
Let me ask you questions, can Usain Bolt make mistakes when he sprint? Can Lionel Messi make mistakes when he play soccer? Now, somebody on the couch arrogantly points out their mistakes who can not even do fraction of what these people have done. What would you say to this person…jerk, right?
The question shouldn’t be can they make mistakes instead the question should be what did they have done.
You and Lukar Jam think you do it because you are allowed do it, you are free to do it, it’s my choice to do it. Never considering why should I do it or is it right thing to do it?
In my opinion Lukar Jam could have done way better if he has been wiser to deal with sensitive issues. People can tolerate stepping over their toes but not poking in their eyes. Lukar Jam should know this.
Please place my two lines side by side that is self-contradictory.
#Tashi#
It is immature for you to write so much without knowing the reality. Even Jamyang Norbu knows it is important for the whole of Tibet to be united to fight against the Chinese. What you bunch of inactive Rangzen thinkers will do, nothing substantial accept pull the leg of those who’re tirelessly working for Tibet. Even if you continue to weaken the influence of White & others around here, it will not help you gain Rangzen because without our help, you’ll not succeed. It is as simple as that.
Grow up and point your accusation finger against the Chinese.
@ White: Are you Buddhist? I hope you have heard what Buddha said “Judge the argument based on its merits or reasons and not on personality – who said it”. Even HHDL uses it frequently during his teachings.
White:
Why do you feel so insecure in giving a honest straight forward answer?
Question is very straight forward, what do you believe that whether ” Dalai Lama can make mistake?”
Now that you are playing word-games like ” secular perspective ” and what not.
I will ask you a very simple question which arose from your word play. What do believe that Dalai Lama is very human who can make mistake like any other person or that Dalai Lama is God /deity who can not make any mistake?
SAMTEN :
Stop insulting our intelligence. Do you really think people on this blog are “immature” who ” write so much without knowing the reality.” ?
You want to know the reality? Ask your mahaguru White. Don’t you remember he preached ” Reality is different”.
We all know you are Sangay’s version of White.
It is your illusion when you think that Rangzen (advocates will not succeed ) without ” our help”! Manchurian candidate will sell us for power, position and financial gain. It is nothing new. History of all the nations are filled with people like that. India had Mir Jaffer and Tibetan had Phuntsok Wangyals. But in the end, even he regretted the Faustian bargain he made with China.
Your comment ” Grow up and point your accusation finger against the Chinese.” Is the oft repeated, most convenient arguement you people make against Rangzen Advocate. It originated from Samdhong Rinpoche and hence parroted by council of all the wise men who could not defend their fallacy.
Question is, why don’t you take your own medicine and fight China instead of creating dissension in TYC or demonizing Dogyal followers. How is the medicine? Is it little bitter when you have to taste it?
White: it took a while for you to admit that HH can make mistakes. That is a big step. Now if he make mistakes, then are people allowed to criticize the mistake without being called anti – Dalai Lama or Shugden followers etc? If the leader of a nation gives up on Independence, the most one can do politically, why can’t you even bear even a small amount of criticism.
Now, to the main issue, it is simply not enough to say he could make political mistakes, but to give us a few examples.
White: give us few examples where His Holiness has made political mistakes please.
Ling Gesar:
Let us not talk about who made what mistake and all. Here, I second White: only history will tell us about missed opportunities.
To me, White here is not just an individual, but a way or pattern of thinking. Not just of a few select individuals but a large chunk of collective thinking. ( I can understand the way our elders think ) but there is a whole group of people, the type which I call ” beneficiaries ” who gains power, control and money ( in the form of scholarship for their children’s education, courtesy Dalai Lama Foundation etc). These group of pseudo-religious people are dangerous. When logical, democratic arguement fails, there want to demonize the intellectuals ( JN , late Dawa Norbu,Lukar Jam etc) by using Dalai Lama as ” phurpa” – religious instrument used in religious rituals to drive off the evil spirit . We have to stop this.
If our White here, who also quotes comic George Carlin believes that ‘Dalai Lama has spiritual power in the political realm and can make NO mistake because of his religious and mystical powers’ , then he should realize that we are engage in election of political leadership and not in a contest for any spiritual post, let alone Dalai Lama’s. I think then, there is simply no arguement because both are right. We simply happens to be talking about two separate Dalai Lamas.
Spiritual one is holy, depending on depth of our faith and can do miraculous thing like part the waters (Jesus ) move the mountains( Hunuman -Hindu Monkey God) travel the space( our Khandromas). To me, religion is personal. I am against
” pseudo-religious group or the “beneficiaries” who are manupilating the political powers in their favor, not for Tibet’s future. Let us resist them. We can change it. Change will come and change is good.
#Dorjee Rinchen#
Para1:- Yeah, many of you are not only immature but also simply bad mouthing others who have differing views & opinions. That clearly shows your weakness. The reality is that Tibet is under the Chinese occupation & there is no way a bunch of inactive Rangzen advocates can do to overthrow the current Chinese hardliners. You can spam here but it will not help to uplift the spirit of the Tibetan people inside Tibet.
Para2:- Who else, please mention the names.
Para3:- You are under the big illusion that Rangzen will come knocking at your doorsteps one fine day. It is not so, boy. Only when the majority of the Tibetan people support the Rangzen policy and work towards achieving the goal, can we expect some change. Under the present circumstances, a bunch of you will not bring much positive change. You cry out your heart for CTA, knowing that Chinese hardliners will not succumb to your demands.
Para 4:- I know you’re one of those hippies who don’t have respect for Samdhong Rinpoche.
Para5:- I don’t have anything against TYC as long as they are not influence by certain individuals. I believe we all are part of TYC. Regarding Dogyal, it will always remain as evil spirit and there is no question of demonizing. The more bitter the medicine, the better curative power it has.
@dorjee Rinchen: I am not trying to place blame one way or the other to gain some sort of personal pleasure but rather trying to see if White actually believes in secular and religious Dalai Lamas and if he can actually separate the two in reality. From my experience deeply religious people are simply incapable and see everything in a positive light. The political mistakes doesn’t need experts in the future because they are glaring even now if you are just willing to be 25% logical and unbiased. I am just curious to see what White thinks are mistakes committed or if there are any mistakes at all.
Santon: where is the autonomy Middleway promised some 30 years ago? And do you even understand what it is Middleway policy now?
Did His Holiness ever say I cannot make mistakes? Did any of His followers including myself ever say His Holiness cannot make mistakes? So where is the debate?
101 Dorjee Rinchen
“Stop insulting our intelligence” really, is this what we got after educating our kids in the last 50 years or so? Reluctantly, I have to say there are hardly any signs of intelligence here. Responses are more of a personalized and expression of dislike. Nobody here laid out any solid ideas that could promote Rangzen agenda besides attacking Middle Way Approach.
Intelligent people never insult people such as calling people idiot.
Can Dalai Lama make mistakes? Yes
Can we fall in a recession next year? Yes
Can we hit by a lightening? Yes
Can we have a mega earth quick tomorrow? Yes
Can we die tomorrow? Yes
Should we worry about all these possibilities? Absolutely no.
Can Lukar Jam succeed where Dalai Lama failed? No way in million years.
@ 108 Dorjee Rinchen
I agree with you. And don’t forget another powerful group- the lama group. I’m sure there are some who have the best interest of the Nation and people and there are those who are totally immersed in their practise, but there are those who are for the status quo because these people feel threatened by a no-nonsense type of leader who is not into pandering to their egos and power status. These people would prefer Lobsang Sangay because he basically has no principles and no stand on any issue except to be all things to all people and pander to vote banks and moneybags.
@ 103 not 108
SAMTEN, the wiseman spoke:
Para1:- Yes, you and your clown Sikyong is there to “to uplift the spirit of the Tibetan people inside Tibet.?” Close to 5 years and hundreds of “self-immolation by brave Tibetans ” what had your Clown done for Tibet? Oh, I forgot, you guys have ” uplifted the spirit ” of the departed souls by conducting prayers at Tsuklagkhang.
” You cry out your heart for CTA, knowing that Chinese hardliners will not succumb to your demands.” Here to some extend you are right. You, Sikyong Sangay’s insiders know it and Chinese hardliners know it that, you will do enough damage to exile Tibetan Institutions, that you will make sure Rangzen is a far away dream like you did during 10 March in NY. You are alluding to more of this for Rangzen advocates, right?
In 2014 Sikyong Sangay and Co. instigated dissension in NY/NJ community and South India. What is your next agenda?
” I don’t have anything against TYC as long as they are not influence by certain individuals.” By “certain individuals” you mean, none who believe in Rangzen or that however, democratically elected the Central membership is, if it is not to your liking or your way of thinking, then the TYC has to be cleansed of these leaders by staging coup by middle-finger pathers goons? So much for being the follower of Dalai Lama and so much for your believe in “God-bestowed “democracy! Doesn’t this sound little close to things with ” Chinese characteristic”.
” The more bitter the medicine, the better curative power it has” Say this to the families of over hundreds of Tibetans who died in self-immolations. What better things you have got for them. Five years of song and dance, and flashy trips and excort services! Glories to the reign of Kim Jong Sangay!
Don’t live under the illusion that Rangzen advocates are arm-chair warriors. Tibetan cause survived for last 50 years because of Our faith in Rangzen. Institution we have are all built by people who believed in Rangzen. If Umae Lam is the “golden path” 1980’s offered the best chance for people like my dad to return to Tibet when his relatives are all alive.
You called me a boy? I think if you know my age, I think you will be ashamed of yourself to find that there is more strength in my aging bones than your muscles. Cultural revolution didn’t deter the spirit of our people. Your hard-line or ‘soft-line’ Chinese leadership talk is nothing but , either you are sleeping with China like Sangay or it is your urge to sleep with China, but at the same time want some respect. You just have to choose one. I won’t offer any more rejoinder, not because I don’t have any arguements but I don’t have time. I have to go teach Tibetans to next generation Tibetans.
Once again white, I am not talking about theories but asking for specifics.
Since 1959, give me 2 examples where you think His Holiness has made political missteps. Why are you being evasive? It is a very straightforward question.
@110 Ling Gesar
Seems like you guys having hard time to understand simple concept.
Did I ever say His Holiness made a mistake?
You asked me, can His Holiness make mistakes? and I said yes but this does not mean I know His mistakes.
If I asked, can you win a lottery? My answer would be yes. What would be your answer?
Do you know talking about possibilities?
So in 50 years, you cannot point out 2 mistakes???
I have nothing to point out that can be proven as a mistake of His Holiness. If you do, I like to hear it. We will debate on this specific subject and I am confident that I don’t have to go too far to prove you wrong.
One of the assumptions here is that I have some personal interest for defending Holiness and CTA. Literally I have zero connection with Gadhen Phodang or CTA. Neither I worked for Ghadhen Phodang and CTA nor I have relatives or friends working there. I am from U-tsang so “lungshen” does not apply to me for supporting Lobsang Sangye or Penpa Tsering. I am a well settled person in the West with family, job, house, car, dog, life insurance, retirement plan and any basic needs for comfortable life. I do not need to get involved in nonsense. I want to make this clear.
Only reason for me to do what I do is I am a Tibetan.
Man with the house, and the car, and the dog, and insurance in a very angry post @ 76 wrote:
” Lukar Jam, self proclaimed researcher, no academic background, no experience, no achievement in life dares stand against His Holiness. DARES TO ASK : CAN HIS HOLINESS MAKE MISTAKE ? ” …
Then again, our man with house, the car, the dog named (Ignorant? Perhaps.) in a Hamlet impression in post @ 106 wrote:
” Did any of His followers including MYSELF ever say His Holiness CANNOT MAKE MISTAKES ? Notice, how he even uses plural for word Mistake!
Anyone can, fact check my quotes and question me, if they think, I am making up these claims which are not true.
But look at the pattern of mindset of the man with the house, and the car and the dog that , he accuses lukar Jam of sacrilegious, for even asking a simple question : ” Can His Holiness make mistake? ”
But he himself says: (again post no:106)
” Can Dalai Lama make mistakes? Yes”
Read his post again. According to lord himself, the term Lukar used is ” His Holiness the Dalai Lama”. The term, the man with the house, and the car, and the dog, used is plain ” Dalai Lama” . No, need for respectful honorifics, when he calls out for His Holiness . See the contradiction.
And, yet he is front and center instigating Lukar Jam for ‘daring ‘ and showing ‘disrespect’ to His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
He acts like he is the most pious guy one can find amongst the Tibetans. Like the roaster on the dung hill, he crows to the top of his voice and says in a post @ 97:
“In my opinion Lukar Jam could have done way better if he has been wiser to deal with sensitive issues. People can tolerate stepping over their toes but not poking in their eyes. Lukar Jam should know this.”
REALLY?
Any trained school teacher in America will tell you that, this is type of attitude is, nothing but a traits of BULLY. Plain and simple.
Then, in that very post no: 97, he stakes a moral high ground by question our friend to present an example of his being EVER contradictory. He wrote ( rather surprisingly in a respectful tone.)
” Please place my two lines side by side that is self-contradictory.”
I feel sorry for his dog called Ignorant. Amen!
Happy Weekend. I need to re-charge my energy for Rangzen. Think Rangzen, talk Rangzen and Take Rangzen.
HH will never make mistake! There you go..whats next Lukar and his dighead ignorantmount. Now..those who believe or felt he can make mistakes or made mistakes. Please do tell.
.i am ready!
Kids.one little note,don’t ever speculate.when u accuse someone of mistakes please provide what the correct action or decision be.I don’t need your opinion.opinions are plenty and waste of time to go through.
White: that is the problem. You cannot find even one mistake in 50 years Which is impossible for anybody in the world,much less a person who holds the top office. This just means you are incapable of being rational thinker because you are still seeing his holiness through the religious dimension where he is thamche kenpa and cannot make a mistake. Because the moment you admit it, and I mean really admit it not just for arguments sake, then you are afraid of what you might to confront. That is the dicotomy every religious person has to confront. It is strange that Buddha himself earnestly demand his words to be examined and to only accept it after one has conclusively confirmed it through thoroughly examining it oneself. But these any criticism is considered sacrilegious and people banned from the proud institutions of higher Buddhist learning. How ironic and sad.
#Dorjee Rinchen#
Even though you don’t like being called boy but what you write & think is childish
The Tibetan cause has survived and spread far and wide largely due to the hard-work and dedication of H.H. the Dalai Lama and many other masters. Without their kindness and influence in the west, I find no good reason for the westerners to support us.
As you said, “Don’t live under the illusion that Rangzen advocates are arm-chair warriors. Tibetan cause survived for last 50 years because of Our faith in Rangzen. Institution we have are all built by people who believed in Rangzen.”
From the above passage, it seems as if your father did something remarkable to keep the hope of Tibetan people burning alive. I don’t think so.
For the final word, you talk so much of self immolation inside Tibet but their main demand is for the return of H.H. The Dalai lama to Tibet.
Why it is so? Why they are not calling for the return of your father & yourself, who avidly believes in Rangzen? Why?
Why is Middle finger pathers , the’ peace-loving’ , blessed by ” H.H. the Dalai Lama and many other masters” who are nurtured more by their ” kindness and influence ” than others, (who are destined for hell), are always very ANGRY ?
Look at the roll of these blessed souls:
Thupten Kalsang of NY,
Thupten Thokmey of NJ
Tenzing Dhonden of CA ( Google “peace embissary ” of Dalai Lama?)
Kalden Lodroe of Free Asia
I -couldn’t-comprehend-properly-what-others-wrote-Samten here.
Samten, the master wrote:
“The Tibetan cause has survived and spread far and wide largely due to the hard-work and dedication of H.H. the Dalai Lama and many other masters. Without their kindness and influence in the west, I find no good reason for the westerners to support us.”
After reading your post above, I have a total metamorphosis. I am very worried now, not for our Tibetan cause, which as you assuringly said is thriving because of ” His Holiness the Dalai Lama and many other masters” but for the teeming Syrian or other refugees knocking the doors of Europe. Om-Mani-Padhme-Hum.
What will happen to them? No Holiness, No Dalai Lama and nor do they many other master? They won’t survive as community? They won’ t have some sensible leadership ? By your logic, there will be “no good reason for the westerners to support” them. They are not even Buddhist? What to do now? Really?
To use your slang, come on, grow up. Crawl out of your shell. It is safe. It is bright and sunny outside. OMG. You are psychologically damaged. No anger, please! I am trying to give you some eye -opening medicine. You said,you appreciate ” curative power of the bitterness”. Truth is always bitter. It is good for you – not an individual but for the large chunk of “friends and countrymen ” with this wrong mind set. Come on,drink it. See, slowly it will cure you of your jaundice. Yes, prayers will help. Great many masters will also help. It is a plus. But, world will not end, my chicken little. Be brave, we will make it. For your sanity, Google the image of Ani Chotso and you will find word ” Rangzen ” tattooed on her hands. That was just before she self-immolated and gave the ultimate sacrifice for Tibet. Yes, the word was : Rangzen.
#Dorjee Rinchen#
Of course, the truth is always bitter, when you came to know the outcome of the preliminary election for the Sikyong Candidates.
You chew your own word, “Rangzen”, when a man like Lukar Jam, who is a die hard Rangzen advocate failed to win the maximum votes from the Tibetan people in exile.
Samten:
Let you be the winner. Happy?
The majority of Tibetans still have Victorian era mentality.
@ 122
“f course the truth is always bitter, when you came to know the outcome of the preliminary election for the Sikyong candidates”
Yes, Be very happy for He will put you right back to sleep. Just like its said in the Dharma that without Awareness you are asleep caught in the warp and woof of time and space.
@15 Dorjee Rinchen
Sole purpose of my story is shade some light on the misassumptions you guys have against people like me. I am far from to be called religious person and this is another misconception. You can call me a rational being.
Are you trying to point out my “self-contradiction”? You have shown nothing. “DARES TO ASK : CAN HIS HOLINESS MAKE MISTAKE ? ” Does this mean His Holiness can not make mistake? You must be kidding. What are you trying to claim?
Let me rewrite section of my previous comment. Can Usain Bolt make mistakes when he sprint? Can Lionel Messi make mistakes when he play soccer? Now, somebody on the couch arrogantly points out their mistakes who can not even do fraction of what these people have done. What would you say to this person…jerk, right? Answers to all these questions are yes. Am I saying wrong?
Where is the contradiction?
I heard Lukar Jams arrogant expression “Can Dalai Lama make mistak?” in Tibetan. He used word “Gyalwa Rinpoche”. Where did you here Lukar Jam calling His Holiness the Dalai Lama? Least thing you need to worry about is my deepest respect and honour to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Many times I used just Dalai Lama to shorten the sentence. It is 100 times better than calling “Lhargen”. I hope you know that.
So expression of simple opinion is a bully according to you. Which American teacher you talking about? You are creating your own world.
Please take off your Rangzen Mask. It does not fit on you. Rangzen is a far beyond reach dream of Tibetan people. People of Tibet will unanimously choose Rangzen over anything if that is the option. So please do not stain on Rangzen believe.
People of Quebec and Scotland had chance to become independence but majority rejected. This is called option. Based on Lukar Jams definition, these people are traitors.
Middle Way Approach is a decision made by our elected leaders based on what they think is the best, what they think is the right thing to do. It could be right or wrong only history will tell us. Ultimately people of Tibet will decide what they want. Middle Way Approach does not become wrong or mistake because Lukar Jam and man of his category says so.
This is the answer to Lukar jam and your notion of Dalai Lama’s mistake.
@118 Ling Gesar
Yes, you are right I could not point out anything as a mistake of His Holiness.
I asked you to point out one or two as a mistake of His Holiness. What happened? Are you having hard time as well?
You can’t just say its a mistake. You have to back up your claim.
Lets see if we can go through this once and for all.
124 Karze
Only people here can say such thing. Other day,Lindsey Graham was trashing Donald Trump so interviewer asked why you have so little public support while Trump is leading in the poll? You guess his answer. No politicians dare to blame the citizen. Never hear of.
Two Tibetans are having a discussion over a good old Chang.
First one asked: Why is Umae Lam people keep making hotch-potch arguements like drunk drivers?
Second one replied: Because they are trying to stir everything to the ‘middle’ and make it Umae -Lam.
White: Some of us just intentionally bait you and you took the bait. You are the one who asked question and you are the one who answered. You are real intelligent man. Please, don’t forget to pick up after your dog …
Those who are fan of our knight in shinning arm, Captain underpants a.k.a, White, don’t forget to read my rejoinder at post no: 115
I have to back to several of his posts to praise his wisdom, which these days have become the domain of Umae Lam crap.
My 126 comment is response to your 115 Not 15.
Dorjee Rinchen
Now you can not come up with anything that make sense so you just want to fool around.
Dorjee Rinchen
You said “You are the one who asked question and you are the one who answered”. Show me the evidence? Do not make up story.
@white: I asked you that question because I wanted to find out your mindset first. If you cannot find one mistake in 50 years of governance, it gives me a clear idea of who I amdealing with. You are asking for mistakes and it doesn’t seem like you even realize you are on a Rangzen forum. Any other format has been successfully closed off by the divine intervention of Zamdhong Rinpoche if you cared to analyze it objectively without putting your religious bias Ito it.
The giving up national sovereignty is a mistake and that is why we don’t follow Umaylam. If we didn’t it was, why would we still strive for Rangzen and put ourselves in such uncomfortable position ? What have we achieved by giving up Rangzen? Nothing! Even an uneducated sweeter seller knows you do not give up your biggest trump card until at the end. Do you know the difference between the initial proposal and the current one? It is sky and earth difference. That is the most obvious one.
2nd: I have mentioned this before but you seem to have selective reading capacity. The Shugden controversy was the latest one. It is completely unnecessary politically and now we are reaping the rewards of that misstep. We literally gave that weapon to the Chinese and now they are using that to fund few traitors to cause problems in our community. Yes these traitors are bad and we should spit in their faces but we have to be fair at the same time and assign some blame to His Holiness too because he started this. If you cannot be honest about this, then you have blinders on the size of Penpa Tsering’s head on either side of your face. It is so glaringly obvious. What a complete mess totally unnecessary and unneeded at this time.
This is just 2 right of the bat.
White: Read post : 115 again and again. His Holiness the Dalai Lama said, if you read the same text again and again, you will find many hidden meanings. It will apply here too.
From your earlier reply, I immediately understood that you are not able to comprehend the whole arguement.
First and foremost, try to understand that when something is boxed in quotation marks ” ” I am quoting you word for word. Words are capitalize for emphasis.
In one way, you are smart, because you are presistent. That is one way to learn. You learn a lot from your opponents or the new word these days is, ” frenemies”. Read that post again and again. Devil, they say is in detail.
You always bring His Holiness the Dalai Lama into every arguement to ‘beat’ your opponents. I used your arguement against you. Same with your dim-witted friend Samten. He has comprehension problem. Words (uplifting spirits etc) and issues ( of self-immolation, TYC etc) are all from his arguements, which I used against him.
I also know, we do have an age old tradition of ‘pulling knives’ when you run out of good logical argument. Samten’s response @ 122 is something equivalent to that. So, I let him, win. If it helps you, White, I will say this you won. Happy,now? No more temper tantrums.
To those who are interested in my fight with MR. White, for full appreciation of my post @ 115, you have to read White’s post @ 114.
My inspiration for word play is from Dr. Seuss, author of very popular children’s book.
First of all I would like to congratulate Sikyong Lobsang Sangay la for getting the vast majority of Exile Tibetan voters and it is now a forgone conclusion that he is winning this preliminary Sikyong election with a huge margin. It is almost unprecedented that almost every exile Tibetans are voting for him. This implies two things: either he is too good or vast majority of our exile voters are voting based on same kind of popularity or photo image based or based on listening to feel good talk. We all know lot of politicians talk what public wants to hear. I think this is precisely what is happening in our exile community. But I must say he must be good! other wise how can he show his smiling face in front of His Holiness. This is something we all must think before we cast our votes in March. But I still must say he must be really really good! For me personally his greatest achievement is making our exile election more exciting and more engaging. During Prof. Samdhong Rinpoche’s tenure it used to so boring and voter turnout used to be lot lower than under Sikyong Lobsang Sangay la. There is another great achievement of Sikyong Lobsang Sangay la that he has traveled all over the world and followed His Holiness every where and this we all know. We all know that there are politicians who take full advantage of His Holiness. We all know he has the best chance to win this election because he has traveled all places in exile India being Sikyong. There is nothing wrong with that he has every right and it is his job as well. But what about other candidate? Our Election Commission rules simply favours the current Sikyong and not the new candidates. There is a rumour that Sikyong Lobsang Sangay lost badly to Tsokso Pempa Tsering la in Gankyi CTA voting and Tsokso won overwhelmingly in Gankyi voting count. Even though Gankyi vote will not change the final preliminary vote result but if Gankyi CTA staff overwhelmingly voted for Tsokso Pempa Tsering la then it is for sure sending a clear message to the rest of the exile Tibetan voters.
That is why EC is not releasing Gankyi vote separately. Sikyong won almost all over India but why EC cannot release Gankyi vote separately? Another issue is Why EC wants to release final Sikyong candidate in the month of Feb. when final election is in March? In democracy majority of votes does count and we have to learn to respect that. But every candidate no matter what is their political ideology deserves equal opportunity to be heard and be contested. Win or loose is a different matter. If we truly believe in democracy then we must have the courage and patience to listen other candidate as well. Open discussion is only way to go forward. Right now we are in a situation where we are even reluctant to support Rangzen candidate openly. I always believe that our youths are more open minded and pro Rangzen. But looking at Lukar Jam’s voting results it appears to me that youth have not supported him with open arms. So what happened to our youths? I can surely understand the sentiments of our elderly people and monastic community but to expect such a low support from our exile youth really baffles me. Unlike other independent nations when we vote, we are voting on behalf of the entire six million Tibetan people and not just the exile community. Finally long live His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Bhod Gyaolo! and Bhod Rangzen!
@ 136 Ling Gesar
First. Middle Way Approach is a decision made by our elected leaders based on what they think is the best, what they think is the right thing to do. It could be right or wrong only history will tell us. Ultimately people of Tibet will decide what they want. Our recent vote result indicate people support MWA. Middle Way Approach does not become wrong or mistake because Lukar Jam and man of his category says so. Now you have to prove me Middle Way Approach is a mistake? It has to go beyond your opinion.
2nd. Are you Buddhist? Otherwise there is no point of talking about Shugden issue? This one only applies if you care for Buddhism. Shugden issue become problematic because we do not have country. For example, if exile government impose smoke restriction just like here in the West, it could become problematic. People are abusing the situation. If Shugden issue took place in Bhutan, people won’t hear a thing.
If lukar Jam and you think MWA and Shugden issue are two mistakes by Dalai Lama, let me tell you this is purely your opinion. Opinions are not facts.
#Dorjee Rinchen
There was no argument existed in your response, period. Do you know the meaning of logical arguments means? You just want to wear Rangzen mask and be a very conniving man. I understand you were quoting my words but do you understand what does it mean? You still did not show me self-contradiction?
White : You are always asking others for this or that proof. Let us say, we are all wrong and you are right.
Now, please provide us the vote count or the percentage of vote count like what percentage of Exile Tibetan people voted for ” middle way ” and what percentage of our people voted for ” Rangzen”? After all, as you keep insisting it was majority decision, let the world know about :
A) Process of how referendum was held.
B) Results of the referendum in every day math.
C) Date and time of the referendum held.
D) Source and link for information on this important decision.
Otherwise, in this day and age, your shouting down the make-believe statement will not hold water. The truth is, like the name change of Tibetan government -in-exile, it is all done by few in the name of Tibetan people. Otherwise, why is CTA holding all these important information? Because, it is fiction. Getting mad?
I know what is going through your mind,you want to “stone me”, right? So much for God bestowed democracy. Help me, what is the meaning of English word called sham?
White wrote:
” I understand you were quoting my words but do you understand what does it mean? ”
I didn’t know that there is a hidden meaning behind your every word. Do we need a special dictionary to consult, where the meaning is words like white means black? Or are you trying communicate other than us, like sending message to your puppet masters ? If your plan is to scream but you can not put that in words, then how come it is my problem that I am not able to comprehend?
@white: it was a decision made by His Holiness and you know it. Who came up with it and put forward to the ‘elected’ officials. His holiness was both the spiritual and temporal leader of Tibet and as such it was his decision ultimately. How can everything good is attributed to him but any mistakes is now the responsibility of the elected officials? That is a position only divine beings enjoy. Do you even think it through in your head? If Tomorrow His Holiness changes his mind, you know as well as me these majority of the Tibetan people will change overnight. That is a fact. Middleway is a mistake because every Chinese leadership have rejected it and have said it repeatedly. I don’t have to say it. It is a mistake because it has been almost 30 years and you have nothing to show for it except for the thick calluses on your knees and the bruises in your bump. Middleway was your way to seduce your lover and instead of holding you in his arms, he laughed at your naked body and kicked you outside in the freezing rain. Instead of admitting you have been duped, you keep on insisting he has a good heart and keep knocking on the door like a battered wife.
2. I am a Buddhist. Even if I wasn’t I can still talk about it because it is creating unnecessary friction within our community. Oh , so Shugden issue became a problem only because we are in exile? You mean you didn’t get the full liberty to fully get rid of them? That is what you mean of course. That is fanaticism talking, not a rational response. Buddha teaching is not a gangster religion. Ok fine, it only became a problem because we are in exile. Well, isn’t that exactly why this hornets nest shouldn’t have been touched in the first place? This is a big political mistake and we are paying for this mistake today and I am sure we will be paying for this in the future. Even you have to admit it was unnecessary and caused serious harm to our fragile community. Now instead of reaching out to the Shugden people to get them on our side and marginalize the few people who are colluding with the Chinese, we are busy demonizing any and everybody we dislike as being Shugden supporters. is this your idea of a democratic society?
These are not just opinions but present reality and any reasonable person can easily see that. Lukar actually mentioned in one of his videos and I forget which one that he thinks Middleway is a big stain on his holiness legacy and he wants to actually erase that by turning the struggle back to Rangzen. There is no doubt His Holiness legacy is stellar overall with these few blemishes that is going to haunt historians in the future as they discuss the demise of Tibet Nation. LukaR’s stand on this courageoua courageous that only a few brave people can only conceive let alone try to do something about it in this hysterically charged climate but I doubt you would u would understand such acts since only vocabulary you seem to understand is needless muttering of his name in almost every sentence.
White:
Do you read Tibetan?
Here is a beautiful quote that I found .
” བླུན་པོ་སྨྲ་བ་ཉུང་ན་མཛེས་པ། ཞེས་གསུངས་། ” Again, the word Lhunpo here does not mean “minister”.
#Dorjee Rinchen#
Retire peacefully for your backbones may not carry you far.
White!
I am not saysing you are nescience but definitely you not aware of true picture our past and present Tibetan Social class system under Gadhen Phodrang and CTA. Before 1959 80% Tibetan citizens were tax payers in a feudal system which liable to exploitation and abuse by Theocrats and Aristocrats (Kudrak ). Drepung monastery, Gadhen Phodrang and Aristocrats were the biggest landowners. High Govt. officials were appointed from the Aristocracy. Sir Charles Bell, a British Official in India and scholar on Tibet, wrote that small children being bought and sold for slaves even in 20th century. Whereas, HH Dalai Lamas lived richly in the 1000 room and 14 storey Potala palace. They are the Buddha followers and suppose to show example to the Buddhist world. These Theocrats and Aristocrats have never allowed to grow leaders from ordinary people, like Amdo Gedun Choephel, Baba Phuntsok Wangyal.
Tibetan feudal system was based on Estates which had hereditarily bound serfs who provided free labour from generation to generations. The monasteries, Aristocrats, and Gadhen Phodrang itself depend on this system. The Feudal lords are called Ku-ngo and this very name (Ku-ngo) still use today in Dharamsala and Tibetan Settlements. I am not trying to overstate our system of feudal politico economic in Tibetan during HH Dalai Lama. But you can read “House of the Turquise Roof” by Dorje Yudon Yuthok, an Aristocrat in 1990 in India.
My point is, we need a true strong leader at this critical juncture who can atleast bring together all Tibetans inside and outside of Tibet. Leaders like, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther and Gandhi stepped up securing freedom and rights to their supporters. These leaders have joined hand in hand in the freedom movement even went to jail for their cause.
I believe you guys have read this article before but I want to ask you read one more time to refresh your memory so I don’t have to write anything detail about MWA. Following is the link:
htt://www.dalailama.com/messages/middle-way-approach
I hope you guys have little bit of faith in Dalai Lama that he could not have made up the whole history of MAW that is in the article. Yes, Dalai Lama have proposed the MAW but final decision was made by our representatives. Of course you can argue their capability of making right decision. The truth is MWA did not come in existence over night.
We are talking about mistake. Fairest thing to say at this time to settle the case is your version of mistake may not fit in my definition and vice versa. Let’s keep it for oneself and not throw on others. Lukar Jam should have done it. The result of majority vote is coming up so I don’t need to say anything.
Lukar Jam should have focused on Rangzen Agenda and fight against China instead of talking about Dalai Lama and CTA. Do you guys know that we have been pursuing Rangzen over 30 years before MWA? What did we get? Does this mean Rangzen is also mistake? What is the chances of getting anything with the Rangzen approach in the next 30 years? Are you going to say it’s mistake?
SAMTEN: wrote @ 143:
” Retire peacefully for your backbones may not carry you far.”
Samten, the great , known for his two best post; one for rejoicing over “Rangzen Candidate” Lukar Jam lost in preliminary election; and second one posted above is the flag bearer of Sikyong Kim Jong Sangay. When convenient, he sometimes join White to support GP divine rule.
Samten is right to some extend, as we age, like others, my physical “backbone” do ache. But unlike his and his master clown, my moral ” backbone” is MADE OF UNALLOYED STEEL – Steel made in India, polished by best of craftsmen both in traditional sense (education) and modern( education). It is not even close to one China is dumping in international market.
My steel backbone is so strong that people like me, even in million years, will not sell Tibet to fund one’s own mortgage payment. Sounds familiar? People with backbone like mine, will starve but never work in China’s favor.
Samten-la or Sangay la: however , young and flashy you may look, you have no backbone. You have to bend down so much like prostitute. There is another word for people like you and it starts with T.
I appreciate your ‘concern’ for my backbone, but far as I am concerned; I write, talk and teach, so I am not very worried about condition of my physical backbone. I prefer to be one Johnny Appleseed and I know that one day, my children and unborn grand-children will swing from apple trees, and even eat some juice ones.
The difference between people like me and people like you is, what the modern psychologist called difference in our “mind-set” . People like me are eternal optimist and people like you are “permanent pessimist”.
I can bet you that I serve Tibet far better than hundreds of Samten(s) who function more or less like Chinese engineered mechanical toys /ploys.
Did you notice, people who quote Buddha of Compassion in every discussion comes out with so much hatred? Doesn’t it sound ironic ? May be an area of research for ” Institue of Mind and Science”?
@144 Bapa Phunstok Wangyal was Chinese running dog from Kham while Utsang is represented by Ngabhod – Beijing called them use idiots.
I admire Gedun Choephel, Lungshar and other progressive Tibetans for his modern outlook and scholarship.
I am puzzled to think how naive people can be despite of all the claims of educational attainments. Shugden issue is created by Dalai Lama, it is unnecessary, it caused so much problems in the society and we gain nothing out of it.
This is what caring and good leaders do, make tough decisions with courage and conviction and face temporary disruption for long term benefit of the whole society. Any leader who is afraid of disruption or want to avoid disruption, cannot cope with complexity and uncertainty and indecisive are weak leaders. There are many examples of tough decisions in the history. Let me pick two: first, President Lincolns Emancipation Proclaimation reignited American civil war and even cause his life at the end but he is victorious to eradicate slavery for good. Second, President Trumans decision to drop the atomic bomb over Japan. Despite of unprecedented civilian casualties, it ended Second World War otherwise it could have been much worse, never ending bloody war.
I know many here are indifference about Buddhism but I am comfortable to say that more than 90% of Tibetan population take Buddhism very seriously. Based on Dalai Lamas knowledge, research and experience, shugden worshipping is not a genuine Buddhist teaching and he explained in detail over and over. As a leader he has the responsibility to protect Buddhism from damaging from inside. His Holiness choose to take action with full knowledge of its complexity and most importantly with good intention. You can not call this a mistake because it is not important for you or you do not agree with the issue.
Kiddo, present day reality build upon your speculation of events of the past must be fitting for your inability to accept the actual reality of the past.Opinion would be much better than this speculative effort.
146 Dorjee Rinchen
Did you just say you write and teach? Wow that freak me out for a moment. Your messages indicate something else.
142 Dorjee Rinchen
I got one for you
མཁས་པ་མཁས་པའི་ནང་དུ་མཛེས་ ཞེས་གསུངས་
White @ 148
“I’m puzzled to think how naive people can be despite of all the claims of educational attainments.”
I didn’t read any claims of educational attainments by any of the people posting here unlike our Sikyong whose attainments in education and embellishments, the news of which have spread far and wide.
About Middle Way – however it may have come into being, Is it really necessary to continuously harp on it and shove it down people’s throats at every opportunity, in schools, in the media etc. All this aimed at our own people when the CCP care a hoot about it. This is lame. Don’t you think so ?
144 Jampel
China did a pretty good job washing your brain. Have you read the history of other societies in the past?
13th Dalai Lama wanted to build a modern school which was blocked by Kudas and abbots of monasteries. This is a clear sign Dalai Lama wanted for change. Present Dalai Lama assumed polictical responsibility when he was barely adult. 13th Dalai Lama died when we really need him. So who are you really blaming?
Lets say we have Nelson Mandal and Mahadma
Ghandi. What are they going to do? China will lock them up and the end. Many Americans supported Nelson Mandala which secured his release from prison. Gandhi also recieved no shortage of support from British people.
Our case is nothing alike.
I FREAK you out because:
1) I voted for Lukar Jam in the preliminary.
2) I respect Constitution over Individual.
3) I hold Tibet dearer and bigger than any Individual; past, present or future.
4) I believe in Human Rights and Religious Freedom ( of even Shugden/ Dogyal worshippers)
5) I believe in Buddha’s teaching and my version of Buddhism teaches me to pity the misguided but not in bullying or demonizing others.
6) I refuse to accept BS as four noble truths.
9) I believe what President Lincoln did was ” Emancipation” what White is saying, is against individual religious beliefs and freedom.
10) I refuse to denigrate another person’s faith and trivialize it by comparing it to smoking.
11) I don’t hate smokers. (Although I do not smoke myself.)
12) I laugh when people try to pass themselves as highly learned and try to show off by quoting this and that, but can’t make sense whether they are praising or criticizing.
13) I enjoy good debate but abhor hate-mongers ( of Lukar Jam and Rangzen Advocate)
14) I can’t stand pseudo-religious, power hungry, control freak syndicates which I call beneficiaries or self-serving vested interest, who when moment comes will be the first to throw our Holiness under the bus.
Yes, I surely freak you out.
Now regarding the Tibetan quote, you quoted to “shame/silence”, you didn’t get it correct either both in content and text. I don’t have Tibetan language font to type the correct version, but it goes like this: ” Kyepa kye-pei wue-na ( like amongst) ze-aye.” The meaning it conveys is that “scholars shine better amongst scholars”
If you are trying to say I am a scholar and should rise and shine amongst the scholars. ( I am not making the claim) it is your quote. Then the meaning one get is, you and your friends are idiota, and I shouldn’t waste my time arguing with you.
Please note that, I am not the one who is saying this. Like a good math student, I just deduced the meaning of your quotes.
Now, you are really confusing me with your contridactory arguement. Anyway, I am faltered by your unintended praise. In psychology, it is called Freudian slip.
Also, I would like to relent the space to others and withdraw for a while. Please don’t live under the illusion that your “dumbing down” had worked. It has never worked and it will never work. More and more of our people are getting educated and many are beginning to realize that we have been taken for a ride for a long time.
Mine post above is a reply to White’s post no: 150 and 151 that I freaks him out and, now he is having nightmares.
As usual D Rinchen did not get even a simple concept.
You called me Lhunpo. I am Lhunpo and not shining because I may be among the Lhunpo. If I live in a Kyepa I might be shinging. You get it now.
I am not here to hurt anybody’s feeling. You could be a scholar or a house keeping I don’t give a shit, pardon my French. If you look at my comments in the beginning, I have been very civil and trying to talk to another Tibetan person who holds completely different political view. Who can not talk trash? I tried to avoid the trash as much as I could but sometime you are drawn so much into the trash and you forget yourself.
At the moment, Lukar Jam received 7% of Lobsang Sengye’s votes. This clearly indicates where people of Tibet stand. Deep down I believe there are more than 7% of people believing in Rangzen but Lukar Jam spoiled the party by challenging the Dalai Lama.
#Dorjee Rinchen#
Looks like you’re hurt deep down because of my earlier comments about your backbone. I’m sorry for that. I don’t mean to hurt anyone.
As far as your way of writing and thinking is concerned, I don’t have much faith in you. Apart from having different ideology, I don’t see you as my enemy but both of us are among the 6 million Tibetans, fighting in our own way against the Chinese.
Good Luck for you future endeavor & may you & others touch the soil of our beloved land once more.
#Dorjee Rinchen#
Since you wrote, “I can bet you that I serve Tibet far better than hundreds of Samten(s) who function more or less like Chinese engineered mechanical toys /ploys.”
From the above lines, I was little bit curious to know your achievement for the just cause of Tibet. And so I google a bit and find out a person named Dorjee Rinchen Rinpoche, who stands out prominent from the rest. Maybe that resemble you.
White!
You have refused to acknowledge all the facts, truth and reality of our political system in exile. You don’t know what is difference between bame and accountability, difference between Buddhism and Lamaism and difference between leadership and responsiblity. It is like a putting gold coin in donkey’s ears.
In one the JN’s artcles, he wrote ” nothing let grow under a Banyan tree” is true in our commuity. Not only this, there are parasites that protects the tree for their own opportunity. I think you are close or one the parasites of exile CTA.
#Jampal Guretsang#
You wrote, “In one the JN’s artcles, he wrote ” nothing let grow under a Banyan tree” is true in our commuity. Not only this, there are parasites that protects the tree for their own opportunity. I think you are close or one the parasites of exile CTA.”
So you mean to say that all the people working under CTA are parasites, and others are not. I believe we all are parasites in one way or the another.
You also wrote, “You have refused to acknowledge all the facts, truth and reality of our political system in exile. You don’t know what is difference between bame and accountability, difference between Buddhism and Lamaism and difference between leadership and responsiblity. It is like a putting gold coin in donkey’s ears.”
If you know it then why not act upon it and do something. Crying here will not change anything. Since you Rangzen people seems to have some gut, then why not change it instead of wailing for years after years. You’re simply buying your time.
@160 Jampel
You have to swim in the water not on the floor.
I read the JNs interview that he used analogy of “banyan tree” because people were critical at that time. I felt people got it wrong and you are taking it even farther from the truth in my opinion.
If I remember correctly JN was asked something like what is going to happen to the Tibetan cause after Dalai Lama?
Actually I liked his answer. We Tibetans rely on His Holiness the Dalai Lama too much. We tend to think he will take care of everything. As long as Dalai Lama is there, people tend to think we don’t have take responsibility. In such a way, we don’t use our full potential.
Once His Holiness is gone, we are compelled to act. We don’t have a wall to lean on we don’t have a banyan tree to protect us from elements. In such a way, there are possibility that we might do even better afterwards.
I really think JN did not meant to portray His Holiness the Dalai Lama as a banyan tree that prevent to grow anything underneath as you portrayed.
@ White: Your constant virulent attack on Lukar Jam clearly shows that either you don’t know the meaning of “democracy” or “you do not respect democracy”.
Democracy is judged by how majority treat its minorities, their view, belief etc.
164 Karze
At least I did not call him idiot, I did not call him psychopath, I did not call him moron.
I disciplined myself to act professionally as much as possible to challenge Lukar Jam’s narcissistic behavior. Everything I said about him is explained is detail instead of trash him down.
Lukar Jam ignored culturally sensitive issue by saying things about Dalai Lama such as “Can Dalai Lama make mistake?’ For vast majority of Tibetan people, Dalai Lama is a emanation of Buddha Avalokiteshvara which means he can not make mistake. I know this does not fit in your head but this is Tibetan people’s faith. Lukar Jam completely ignored this faith. For this reason, Lukar Jam got what he asked for 7% vote from the population.
@166 Technically speaking Avalokeshteswara is not Buddha but Bodhisattva. LJ got 7% without any exposure the candidates had. LS was incumbent Sidkyong and PT had over 20 years as Chitue.
LJ is known to a very small circle of people so 7% is not a small but big leap. Democracy is messy and not an ideal, but that is the best option of governance.
@ White: Chinese emperors are believed to be the reincarnation of Manjushri.
I remember not that long ago White or him in one of his other avatars made a comment here about Guru Rimpoche that shocked me. What does that say about him? So, don’t get too carried away with your reasoning. They change from season to season.
Speaking of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas….did you hear the good news?
Yesterday, in South India, someone saw the ghost of Jiddu Krishnamurti in a beat-up, lime-green bimmer, driving willy-nilly, all the while shrieking, “Maitreya is coming!” “Maitreya is coming!”
WHITE:
” For vast majority of Tibetan people, Dalai Lama is a emanation of Buddha Avalokiteshvara which means he can not make mistake.”
I have been reading all your post. To me there is no bigger narcissist than you. You act like the gentlemen officer, who speaks French, aristocrat with suburban life style with a dog in toe, wears Dalai Lama badge on your sleeves, waves CTA flags in a show of ‘ patriotism’ worthy of respect.
Compare to you, Lukar Jam and many posters on this blog are political prisoners, activists, writers who are down to earth, who struggle to sleep at night, at the sorry state of our affairs. Some one has to tell the endearing Emperor that, his “yes ministers” are fooling around and that, in fact, we are all sailing naked.
So, forget about your divine right of speaking for ” vast majority ” talk about yourself, what do you believe? Will you take (eat) the poo and taste a piss of emanation of Buddha of compassion?
Don’ t think that I am insulting you. I know our history and many people would die to get a piece of it? But will ” your vast majority” relish this as ” Jhenlab” in this day and age?
His Holiness the Dalai Lama has himself made this amply clear that he does not have extraordinary power and hence we all believe that He can make mistakes. There is nothing wrong in making mistakes. He made mistakes because, he didn’t have the option not to. He has to make a decision for Tibet and Tibetans and hence, when someone has make the decision, some of the decisions are, sure going to be wrong or bad. People know it.
Don’t try to interpret things on behalf of our people, as if you are the Nechung Oracle. By doing that you are making two tragic mistakes:
A. You are ‘imprisoning’ Dalai Lama. The real Dalai Lama is more tolerant, real practical and more endearing who has the guts to tell the truth as He sees it. He is one who dwells in every Tibetan heart. He is bigger than one we have on our altar.
You self-appointed “brokers” let people see the real Dalai Lama, one who is more humane. History is a testament to this fact that one of the most endearing Dalai Lama was the 6th Dalai Lama. We love our Holiness for his compassion, caring, good nature leader. So, end your ceaseless charade,please.
B. You are treating ” vast majority” like ‘ subjects’ living in pre-Independent Tibet. Please, give up your feudal mindset and know that we are ” citizen” of Tibet and we live in 21st century.
Earlier in one of your post, you are taking victory lap over Lukar Jam’s loss. I am a supporter of Lukar Jam. I haven’t met him in person but share and support his vision. I will tell you this, that Lukar Jam did well. The contest from the very beginning was tilted to favor the incumbent. Very prominent 27 Tibetan supporters watching the game are forced to draft the petition to complain that, the playing field is not level for some and the game is not fair from the get go.
Despite all this, Lukar Jam shook the status quo and made enough imprint. You called your self open minded, liberal educated but in the name of ” vast majority” you are shutting doors of monasteries and Tibetan community centers so that Lukar’s Magic won’t touch “vast majority “. TCV , many Gelug monasteries, ex-Namgyal monk dominated boards went ballistic in making sure Lukar’s view points don’t reach the ” vast majority” of the people.
In the end, what people like you did is that you have made joke of Tibetan democracy and let’s see, how you are going to claim the “legality” of it before China and the outside world.
When Lobsang Sangay stake claims for the second time with stolen votes,China will be the first to laugh at us. You crooks should celebrate then.
Most people on this earth believe this universe is created by God. So don’t be shocked by what we believe and what Chinese believe. We can believe whatever we want but we also have to respect people’s faith.
@ 169
Yes, It is said that Buddha Maitreya will come. Whether you call the one Maitreya, Kalki Avatar or Second Coming of Christ , its one great being who will come and soon. Humanity will live in a golden era for thousands of years. But sorry, it’s not happening during our life time. Maybe our children /grandchildren will usher in that era.I know you guys don’t believe in all this but Kalyug is ending to usher in the age of Satyuga. Meanwhile there will be chaos and worsening of turmoil in the world but same time more and more will awaken.
@170 Your post 170 contradicts your own earlier post. Now you speak of respecting others faith aka Chinese.
171. UIMPERIALIST, your comment – Bakbas hai
172 Karze
When did I oppose somebody’s faith? I hope you are not talking about Shugden issue. We are simply defending our own faith from distorting. Do we have a right?
Shugden follower can pray, worship, sing, play music whatever they want but do not mix with us. Mainstream Christians would say the same to Mormons and Jehovah Witness. This is not a disrespecting but defending once own faith.
@175 I didn’t bring up Shugden controversy it is your imagination. I don’t believe in spirit worship whether it is Shugden, Lhamo or Nechung etc.
In fact I find it ridiculous that shugden worshiper who constantly denounce PadmaSambha the founder of Tibetan Buddhism – in reality he invented this worship. Of all groups Shugden are most fierce worshipper of spirit called it Sungma, Choekyong.
White wrote:
” For vast majority of Tibetan people, Dalai Lama is a emanation of Buddha Avalokiteshvara which means he can not make mistake.”
White: I have been reading all your post. To me there is no bigger narcissist than you. You act like the gentlemen officer, who speaks French; aristocrat with suburban life style with a dog in toe; wears Dalai Lama badge on your sleeves, waves CTA flags in a show of ‘ patriotism’ worthy of respect.
Compare to you, Lukar Jam and many posters on this blog are political prisoners, activists, writers who are down to earth, who struggle to sleep at night, at the sorry state of our affairs. Some one has to tell the endearing Emperor that, his “yes ministers” are fooling around and that, in fact, we are all sailing naked.
So, forget about your divine right of speaking for ” vast majority ”. Talk about yourself, what do you believe? Will you take (eat) the poo and taste a piss of emanation of Buddha of compassion?
Don’ t think that I am insulting you. I know our history and many people would die to get a piece of it? But will ” your vast majority” relish this as ” Jen-lab ” in this day and age?
His Holiness the Dalai Lama has himself made this amply clear that he does not have extraordinary power and hence we all believe that He can make mistakes. There is nothing wrong in making mistakes. He made mistakes because, he didn’t have the option not to. He has to make a decision for Tibet and Tibetans and hence, when someone has make the decision, some of the decisions are, sure going to be wrong or bad. People know it.
Don’t try to interpret things on behalf of our people, as if you are the Nechung Oracle. By doing that you are making two tragic mistakes:
A. You are ‘imprisoning’ Dalai Lama. The real Dalai Lama is more tolerant, real practical and more endearing who has the guts to tell the truth as He sees it. He is one who dwells in every Tibetan heart. He is bigger than one we have on our altar.
You self-appointed “brokers” should, let people see the real Dalai Lama, one who is more humane. History is a testament to this fact that one of the most endearing Dalai Lama was the 6th Dalai Lama. We love our Holiness for his compassion, caring, good nature leader. So, end this ceaseless charade,please.
B. You are treating ” vast majority” like ‘ subjects’ living in pre-Independent Tibet. Please, give up your feudal mindset and know that we are ” citizen” of Tibet and we live in 21st century.
Earlier in one of your post, you are taking victory lap over Lukar Jam’s loss. I am a supporter of Lukar Jam. I haven’t met him in person but share and support his vision. I will tell you this, that Lukar Jam did well. The contest from the very beginning was tilted to favor the incumbent. Very prominent 27 Tibetan supporters watching the game are forced to draft the petition to complain that, the playing field is not level for some and the game is not fair from the get go.
Despite all this, Lukar Jam shook the status quo and made enough imprint. You called your self open minded, liberal educated but in the name of ” vast majority” you are shutting doors of monasteries and Tibetan community centers so that Lukar’s Magic won’t touch “vast majority “. TCV , many Gelug monasteries, ex-Namgyal monk dominated boards went ballistic in making sure Lukar’s view points don’t reach the ” vast majority” of the people.
In the end, what people like you did is that you have made joke of Tibetan democracy and let’s see, how you are going to claim the “legality” of it before China and the outside world.
When Lobsang Sangay stake claims for the second time with stolen votes,China will be the first to laugh at us. You crooks should celebrate then.
Effing tired of the incessant mention of dalai lama when the issue is about Tibetan people. Dalaiblama is just one person like anyone else and he is retired now , had his own time as the longest reining political leader without having to fight for election.
I have never been convinced of his polical wisdom. And I am certain most of the five sikyong contenders- at least ls and lukar – are far more politically savvy to lead the Tibetan people.
It is about issues , stupid. No more mention of largyens.
Majority of younger Tibetans see the truth on Dharamsala political corruptionalized system but recoil themsleves from the fact because they fear being viewed as ani-Dalai Lama or even lable as pro-China. What we don’t realize is when we are embroiled in a state of fear we found ourselves focused soley on our won survival.
@178 Old monk
Note:
If you are Chinese agent, my comment does not apply to you.
Otherwise you tested me. Listen now. You can walk on your head instead of your feet. That is your life. You have lots of dislikes about Dalai Lama and CTA and that is your problem. Result of recent vote, mere 7% for your idol Lukar Jam by people of Tibet is slap on your face.
Either you are completely stupid or Chinese inciter. Dalai Lama did not asked to be a leader of Tibet. People of Tibet asked him to be their leader.
You are impressed by dogs bark but not impressed by lion’s roar.
You are going to hear Dalai Lama’s name even in your dream. Too bad.
177 M.F.2U -White
You are bothered by my devotion to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. What you want me to say? Cohort of anti-CTA and harboring grudge against once own society can not shake my faith.
There are hundreds of profound teachings taught by Buddha himself. Scholarly teachings from Nalanda masters and Tibetan masters are available everywhere in our society but you found “poo and piss”? What a sad story.
There is no problem making mistake. Dalai Lama could make many mistakes still he is million times better than Lukar Jam.
Lukar Jam asked “Can Dalai Lama make mistake?” to justify his criticism against Dalai Lama. As a Sikyong Candidate, is this important issue to talk about? This clearly indicates Lukar Jam has nothing to talk about Rangzen and how he is going to deal with China. Lukar Jam is not going to talk to China because China won’t listen a thing from him and Lukar Jam is not going to fight against China because it will be a suicidal mission. We want to know what he is going to do to achieve Rangzen. Stay in Dharamsala and cry?
#Jampal Guretsang#
Actually majority of younger Tibetans don’t have the necessary avenue to know what is going inside CTA, let alone corruption. They are engrossed in their own daily routine.
If you have the evidence, let others know so that we could do something about it. Otherwise there is no use barking that such thing exist. I know CTA is not 100% perfect but still then everyone of us are not.
@white (Caucasian?) 180,
Tibetans asked him to be their leader ? Really ?
What about theocracy ? Did any average bloke , like you or me , get a chance to be the leader ? Doesn’t dalai lama have the not responsibility to step down once in exile post 1959 to give way for popularly elected leader ? I am a Marxist, anything that reeks of ill-earned privilege is corruption. Only banana republics- north Korea, iraq , soudi Arabia , Eritrea comes to mind- languish in leaders ruling for a lifetime.
No person should rule more than 10 years , or two terms. Exceeding which abets autocracy and hinders progress and encourages mass inertia .
183 Old monk
It seems you don’t even know the meaning of theocracy. There is no God and there is no Gods law in Buddhism interpreted by authorities or to rule people in the name of God. There is no divine law and there is no divine guidance in Tibet.
How did Dalai Lama become leader of Tibetan people? Did his father inherited him the power? If you don’t know, study before you talk. Do you think Dalai Lama should have relinquished his power when people of Tibet were in a desperate situation? How much more absurd person can you get?
The people have spoken through White. Don’t you know that White is the new rainbow?
In an “utmost transparent” move, the “utmost transparent” Tibetan EC brushes off Tibet supporters’ open letter. (Phayul)
In a terse reply, EC states…So far, they have recieved only one “officially recognized letter”, while the various candidates who are clearly viiolating various EC rules on youtube mayhaps judged as not falling within the pervew of “irrefutable evidence and proof.” Whereas, such evidence must surely be admisiable in any court of law.
Then this lawyer’s dodge of “Suo moto”, a fancy latinate, play-on-words conceding EC, in reality of having no real power and autonomy and there only as a bullhorn to holler the demands of the ruling class in Dharamsala.
Tibetan EC further entreats, “look guys, refugee democracy (Tibetan democracy the model for all refugee democracies in exile-Sikyong) cannot be compared to democracies in independent countries.”
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=36662&article=Tibetan+EC+responds+to+Tibet+supporters%27+open+letter
Abbreviation of my pseudonym is Middle Finger to you, white. When he refused to stopping writing his BS after hundreds of mindless post, I chose this acronym in the honor of his thousand stupid post.
183 Old monk, I want to ask.. “are you okay”? Especially Mentally..? Your words carries neither “Rangzen” nor “Middle way” spirit. Its just reflects some your own personal problem. Just bullshit, bakbas doesn’t deserve any reply and attention at all. As White said you are either completely stupid or Chinese agent. Its clearly sounds you doesn’t share our (Tibetan: Rangzen pa and Middle wayers) values at all.You better mind your language going ahead or just get lost out of this blog.
Old Monk wrote:
” I am a Marxist, anything that reeks of ill-earned privilege is corruption. Only banana republics- north Korea, iraq , soudi Arabia , Eritrea comes to mind- languish in leaders ruling for a lifetime.”
Contridiction here. I do not think true Marxist will ever criticize the North Korea ( Cuba,China and Russia) ‘ the model of socialist paradise’. I
So, it is becoming an interesting tug of war between two ‘real intellectuals’ – a probable ex-monk, turned Marxist on confusion at his ripe old age, who goes by the name of Old Monk and pseudo-religious fanatic, who couldn’t uphold his monk’s vows, but also couldn’t rid himself from snobbery of I -am -holier-than-thou attitude and threatens hell on others who seek Rangzen and forget to feed his dog named Ignorant as someone called. Equally matched. Let the game begin. Bong. Round one.
In this match, I can predict there won’t be any winners, but I see lot of butchery of English language, true historical facts about Tibet, International politics and even about Albert Einstein’s contribution and Lincoln’s Emancipation. The facts will be distorted so much to fit their version of ‘Buddhism/Marxism’ that, China will be tempted to hire them both for their department of Re-writing history.
I am also waiting to read more of their garbage, so that I can teach my children, what is wrong with the pseudo religious fanatics and fake Marxist and how wrong both these crazies are.
## M.F.2U -White
Old Monk and you are cut from the same fabric so why are you fighting with him?
Who taught you about middle finger? Your parents won’t know what middle finger stands for, do they?
White : MF salutation to you.
As long as You know,it is all that matters. I thought you guys are cut out from same fabrics.
Quiz: Who is the most popular Buddhist leader who claimed that he is a true Marxist? Google it and there in, you will find the answer, and from it, you can recognize that Old Monk is none other than your long lost twin. So, cut out your crap.
LUKAR JAM’S 7% (UPTO NOW?) COULD PROVE AUSPECIOUS WHEN THE COUNT IS COMPLETE WITH SUSPECIOUSLY LATE COUNTING IN NORTH AMERICA.
PLUS, SIKYONG LOSTING SO BADLY IN GANGCHEN KYISHONG – THE ULTIMATE NERVE CENTER OF TIBETAN POLITY – COULD SHAKE UP THE FINAL MARCH VOTING.
LUKAR’S 7% WOULD GO BEYONG 17% AND HIGHER.
M.F.2U -White
Look at Old Monk’s attitude towards Dalai Lama. It runs parallel to your attitude.
If you don’t like your own smell, too bad.
Who care if Old Monk is Marxist or communist. May be he is Maoist.
@White: You are struggling with two words i.e., Democracy and Theocracy
@White: You are struggling with two words i.e., Democracy and Theocracy
Act I Scene I
(Shakespearean play based on real information on events that took place in Gangkyi, Dharamsala)
Lobsang Sangay at his desk in Kashag. Behind him is a huge brocaded thangka of, none other than Sikyong himself. He gazes at it. This time, he is not smiling. In fact, he is very angry. Angry at lot of people; mainly at his chief rival, Tsoksto Penpa Tsering, but also at all the staff of Central Tibetan Administration at Gangchen Kyishong – the centre of Tibetan universe.
The great helmsman is angry that Chithue Tsoksto has won 800 votes and that he got only 50 votes,which is not even 5% of the officials of his own administration. Only 5 0 votes!
His hands are twitching, the deformity very common in many tyrants. For a minute, he how wishes himself to be Kim Jong I’ll, so that he can teach the whole bunch of officials what it means, not support him.
Unable to control his deformity, he picks up the phone and called Pema Chhonjor and asked him to summoned all his ministers for a urgent Cabinet meeting.
” NOW!” He yells.
Within minutes, one by one, all his ministers entered the cabin. Many are happy at the thought that Dharamsala is not North Korea. Although they are refugee, although indebted, their lives won’t end like the great uncle of Kim, executed by firing squad. Nevertheless, they are somewhat tense. They know it is the vote counts of Gangkyi. They know it is that number, the five and zero, that is the culprit of all this tension.
Sikyong could not hold his pretense any more.He went straight for the kill. He asked Pema Chhonjor, how many voters you have voting for me in Gangkyi. I mean for real, one who can be trusted?
Pema is prepared for this because he worked the hardest. He clears his throat and says, between 5 to 10. Sikyong wants correct numbers; so he asked again, 5 or 10?
Pema Chhonjor says, may be, 7 would be correct number. In his mind, he is counting himself, Tashi Phuntsok of DIIR, Sonam Topgyal of Home Department, his own house-keeper from Tibet and few others and then counted himself again, the mistake he is very found of making.
Now, others are feeling very uncomfortable. So, each made a fantasy number and a fantasy story. Sikyong Sangay added it all up, including his own vote. Surprisingly, it totaled up to 65. But wait, says his peon, the actual vote for Kungo Sikyong is 55 not 65! There is a discrepancy.
Now, Sikyong is getting more angry. He knew that even his ministers are lying to him. He turned to his wife’s portrait that he has mounted on his desk, to present an idea of what a model Tibetan family should look like; and his inner most thoughts erupted in full displayed when he let out: ” now I am not sure, even my wife voted for me not! ”
Now, they all know that Sikyong is really not happy and when he is not happy, bad things happen to all of them. Pema Chhonjor knows this the best. He has seen this play before. He knows that Sikyong is for real very angry and now, he better do something.
ACT II. SCENE II (to follow when I find time)
China has been describing old Tibet to the Western people to potray negative image with the terminology that is familiar to the West from mostly Erupean civilizations such as theocracy, autocracy, feudalism and so on but I have never imagined China’s propaganda have impact on our fellow Tibetans because we supposed to know our true history. Obviously I am wrong. Chinese dog such as Michael Parenti and Melvyn Goldstein have been exaggerating our social history by picking on our garbage. If you focus on only picking up garbage, then all you get is garbage.
For example, feudalism is generally headed by King or Monarchy and neither Dalai Lama is king nor Monarchy. Dalai Lama and many of our great Tibetan lamas and masters were came from ordinary family. Does this happen in feudalism? None of the terms used by Chinses to discribe ole Tibet are applicable.
We had a unjust society just like anywhere else.
Can any one out there could shed some light on why North America Pre-Sikyong election result is still not yet declared by EC of CTA? I thank any one for any response. This is now almost November! Are they still counting the votes in North America? Or they must be shipping the actual ballot box to Dharamsala by ship? Unbelievable! Almost all local ECs in India and even from Nepal have already declared their results in timely manner and I applaud their good work. But what about North America? I may be wrong here but is someone out there playing any political game just to make sure there is enough gap between the second and the third candidate so that they could eliminate the third candidate. We all know by now they prefer only two candidate with same political message for final Sikyong election. We as a voter deserves to have information on timely manner so that we all could make well informed decision before we cast our final votes. So why North America results still not declared?
Another turf war? Can’t stand the new guy on the block? Still don’t get the whys these two coalitions, of Dr. Sangay and Shamdong/Penpa Tsering can’t live and let live while seemingly having much in common when it comes to maintaining power and control?
What exactly are the issue, or issues? Will the people ever really know? Or, be like a good Tibetan and make our decisions based on gossip? Is Dr. Sangay really the Outsider? (Btw, whatever happened to that docu-movie idea anyway? Too audacious, too bad taste?)
After Penpa Tsering has taken a pound of flesh (no more, no less), our glorious Caesar should die (I calculated this with mind to vote counts) from two thousand six hundred and twenty five further cuts. Haha
Really a head scratcher (at least for me) why the establishment is so anti-Sangay when the latest parliamentary session many MPs came not to bury Caesar but to praise him. Maybe the kiss of death?
Since we are such an open and polite society, i suspect we may never really know what anything is really all about? I blame this on too much transparency and not enough hypocrisy. Sometimes we are just too good for our own good. Still, a curious thing, what taboos might this wretch have transgressed while on hallowed ground? Perchance, did Dr. Sangay sleep with Penpa Tsering’s wife, or vice versa? Have they all slept with Samdhong Rinpoche? I’d rather it be about someone sleeping with another man’s wife and not a political split, in large part, occurring over spite and jealousy.
Ofcourse, in the end, it can only be about one thing and we all know what that one thing is. Anti-Dalai Lama. All Penpa Tsering and cohorts need do is paint the popularly elected Lobsang Sangay as Anti-Dalai Lama whereupon the democratic loving Tibetan people will make informed decisions like they always do.
197
What is the point of talking such thing? Its a waste of time.
As long as somebody follows the Dalai Lama, nobody is good for you guys no matter who comes in the office. You guys appreciate Lukar Jam so much simply because he does not follow Dalai Lama.
Dreams @ 197
After his merry-go round and round speech, his real message or political agenda is skrink wrap in this paragraph :
“Of course, in the end, it can only be about one thing and we all know what that one thing is. Anti-Dalai Lama. All Penpa Tsering and cohorts need do is paint the popularly elected Lobsang Sangay as Anti-Dalai Lama whereupon the democratic loving Tibetan people will make informed decisions like they always do.”
The power point presentation of his above statement is thus:
A. Lobsang Sangay is real ‘ Sangay’ – the Buddha like, the good,
B. Samdhong Rinpoche and Penpa Tsering are the villain, the evil ones.
C. Samdhong Rinpoche and Penpa Tsering are closer to His Hooliness and hence there is fear that the “cohort’ will sabotage Sikyong Sangay’s re-election.
D. Sikyong Sangay is the outsider, with the knowledge and foresight who came to reform the system and resurrect Tibetan struggle.
E. But Dharamsala administration’s staff are resisting change.
His message: I am Sikyong Lobsang Sangay’s supporters.
So, thus be known for who he is. Thus, it is easier to argue for and against, instead of going around like Hindi filmy song scene, running round all over hills and valleys.
But to me, Tashi Topgyal who won the least number of votes is more honest and straight forward guy than Sikyong Sangay.
The thing with people like Sikyong Lobsang Sangay is that you never know where he stands.His game plan is to woo the most influential and powerful and one and only focus is power. To him, its not a matter of firm belief in Middle Way or Rangzen or the Shugden issue. The winning side is the one he will join. People like him have no stand on any issue. So, that in a way is very advantageous for him. But people who can see through that trait can see that he is all style and no substance. And in this image driven world of Sheeple , he has a huge advantage. On the other hand people like Penpa Tsering who have a more clear cut stand on issues and matters which may or may not end up as advantageous for him. But people at least know where he stands and he is even able to say that he will resign in case of certain scenarios. Don’t ever expect that word “resign” from Sikyong Lobsang Sangay no matter what.
For a long time, one chorus of protest we raised against China is, “China lies, Tibetans die.”
Of late, this thought keep recurring in my mind that the above statement will be equally appropriate against Sikyong Lobsang Sangay, in the wake of on-going self-immolations and Sikyong’s made -to -gain votes slogan that his “mission” is to prepare for the return of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
But in reality, only thing we saw in the last years, besides his foreign sojourn is these:
A. Promoted his friend as Ari Dhonchoe. ( perhaps, the best example of promotion of his policy of ” SELF – reliant” )
B. Paid his mortgage ( again,to be ” SELF -reliant”)
C. Provided “employment” to few contractor to renovate his official residence with heating -warming-wood floor. ( I don’t even His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s residence is that cosy? For sure, Samdhong Rinpoche’s residence wasn’t because as former CTA official, my duties took me to Rinpoche’s official residence several time and it wasn’t anything special. The expense bill of Lobsang Sangay’s.” renovation” had even auditors’ shaking their heads. These are no convenient ” gossips” as Dream alleges. Tibetan medias have responsibility to fact check these.
D. Provided ” employment ” to a thangka painter by commissioning a personal portrait ( later claimed that people in Tibet sent it to him and he got it blessed by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, saying His Holiness told him that he is as much entitled to this as Emperors of China were.Again, this can easily be sourced to several of his speeches)
E. Provided “employment” to few artists by commissioning them to compose and sing songs in his praise. This slice of juicy information came from none other than his man Friday.
Don’t get me wrong all these are his “achievement” and we haven’t touched any of “misadventures ” or rather “daring adventures” like excort services he used. So, I will not go there, unless any of his loyal follower treat us to a ‘DREAM like talks.
Do any of you have good things to say about CTA and its staff? Your democracy is equal to agreeing everything you think or say or believe. Otherwise it’s all wrong and bad.
For such reason Lukar Jam good and
Democratic for you guys.
I support Lugar Jam simply because he is brave enough to say Rangzen – China get out of Tibet.
It is shame that while Chinese use every means to ridicule, demean, lie and thwart every activities of Tibetans by using trade, military and diplomatic pressure while we keep praising China blahh ….
You are as good as a chorus yourself, Shakespearean fan.
Yes I am such a big Lobsang Sangay fan, and that’s why I voted for Lukar Jam. However, I would choose Lobsang Sangay over Penpa Tsering, all things being equally corrupt.
You liked the honest Tashi Topgyal la, and yet you voted for who? Penpa Tsering? Or you one of those who actually picked Samdhong Rinpoche when he isnt even in the running? Hahaha
Did I really say (or even mildly suggest) Lobsang Sangay la is a Buddha? Or, that he isn’t self-serving in some ways? Sick interpreters I know all too well. Your sad desperation really shows when you picked me as your foil in a vain attempt to play me as a sounding board to amplify your half truths and half lies against the Sikyong.
The “more honest and straight forward guy” Tashi Topgyal la, as you well know, alas, is out of contention now. Too bad you didn’t say a peep on this blog when he was actually in the race. So, what does that say? Maybe the real secret reason why you don’t like Lobsang Sangay is because his instincts are too much like yours?
I was really hoping you would have choked on your halloween candies White. You did a wonderful job of beating down Lukar Jam with the Anti-Dalai Lama stick, might we expect the same in five years when a new Rangzen candidate contest for the Sikyong chair?
What if Tenzin Tsundue or Tendor should throw down? Both have nothing but good things to say about His Holiness. Or, could this be anti-Dalai Lama in disguise? I suppose sometimes logic just get in the way and confuse things. I mean, if someone tortured in a Chinese prison can be labelled a traitor, what other nonsense might not make sense?
What dreams may come is pissed by hearing tiny bit of unintentional praise to Zamdhong Rinpoche. I have to wonder what Zamdhong Rinpoche did to this person. Despite everything else being identical with Shakespearean Fan, his sword swinging every direction to express his displeasure.
Rangzen vs MWA is simply a political disagreement among Tibetan population and Any sensible Tibetan would accept as a part of democratic society. Even Dalai Lama himself has a right to express his view and no one can dismiss that.
Lukar Jam may be patriotic but he is not smart for such reason people will not vote for him. Simply by having different view does not make other view wrong or mistake. According to Lukar Jams definition, people of Quebec and Scotland are traitors. How absurd can he get? If there is a debate on the stage even I can smoother him with his own logic.
Its easy to ask such question “Can Dalai Lama make mistake?” but difficult part is pointing the mistake and proving it logically which Lukar Jam failed desparately.
Lukar Jam’s logic your view is different from mine thats why is a mistake. Dealing with the Shugden issue is a mistake because I do not have eyes to see the true nature of issue. Plus I do not believe in religion still I can handle better than you.
Its like US presidential candidate who has no clue about Middle East conflict and still claim he can resovle the issue better other candidate who has been dealing with the issue for years.
So many absurd things from Lukar Jams mouth.
I do not need to use anti Dalai Lama stick.
Dream @ 205:
Fair enough. I accept that you are one of the reasonable posters and it clearly shows in you wide variety of postings that you are younger than me and but very well read. I respect that compare to few real crazies, particularly one, who had one and only one argument to make; chases every opportunity to thrust himself into the middle of every argument, yet had nerve to call others narcissist.
In picking your post, I was letting people know that behind your flowery prose and poetry, what you are basically saying is, you are Lobsang Sangay’s supporter. No crime. If people know you, for you are or at least where you stand, then it is easier to argue.
That said, I will also let you know that I and my family do not know Lukar Jam but shared his every vision. It is nothing original, but ingrained in our heart since our childhood. He has the guts – I mean GUTS and when you have someone who speak for you, how can one missed not to vote for him.
Now, when it comes to Lobsang Sangay, I will vote for anyone, even Homer Simpson but never for the Machurian candidate. The best portrait of both Penpa Tsering and Lobsang Sangay is one posted by Poster named TENZING @ 201. I know both of them inside out and TENZING is on the dot.
That said, from several of your posts including your rejoinder to my post, it clearly shows that you are not very well acquainted with election process.So for the benefit of you and many others, I will highlight few facts, which you should double check with others( but I am quite sure, I am right)
In the preliminary election, voters have right to vote for ANYONE that includes Samdhong Rinpoche. ( Lukar Jam cast his own Sikyong vote for JN and when local election commission failed to announce his one vote for JN, Lukar Jam in a Twitter (?) post made issue about it , saying that he voted for JN and his vote has mysteriously disappeared and may be it is work of Shugden or Nechung. Under pressure, the local election commission came out with press note and apology saying they have ‘missed’ to release the ‘ second page’ of the results! But, when you look at the page ‘one’ and list of few ‘missed’ candidates listed on the second page, even a child can fit the names on the second page on the single and still have enough space for election observers to sign. ( This fact was clearly pointed in an article in Khabdha)Long story short, in preliminary, you can vote for anyone, including yourself.
Candidates who put out their names, Sikyong Lobsang Sangay, Tsoktso Penpa Tsering, our Lukar Jam, Tashi Wangdu, Tashi Topgyal are, in no way, official candidate. They are voluntary candidates. Same with Chithues candidates who put their names out.
Now based on the preliminary election results, EC commission will prepare the official candidates with the names of top vote winners. During last Sikyong election, EC had 3 candidates; Tenzin Tethong, Lobsang Sangay, Tashi Wangdi ( former minister). Others like Phurbu Dorjee , Lobsang Jinpa etc got knocked off.
If EC were to follow the precedent from the previous election, then they have to let Lukar Jam ( 3rd in the unofficial vote count ) in the main Sikyong election. But on November 19 ( note the date. It is very important ) EC announced a new rule, saying that for 3rd candidate to appear on the ballot, the 3rd should have vote count of no less than 20% to the 2nd candidate. EC also said although the announcement of the rule is made on Nov19, the decision was made well before the preliminary election. So, the question is with Lukar Jam supporters like me is : Really?
That said, I think Lukar Jam or for that matter any one can still run as “independent Sikyong candidate” . There are some rules; the independent candidate has to come up with the support of 25 full fledged citizens with all their dues paid and the candidate has to make a deposit (cash) of certain amount. Chances of winning is less, but can forced the official candidates to debate the issues.
As a voter, irrespective of Lukar is on the ballot or not, we can also vote for him. Many, including myself are planning to vote for him as a protest vote in the main elections.
These rules apply to Chithue candidates too. The deposit for independent candidate for NA Chithue is $ 500 and ( I think , even if you do not win the seat, but win good enough votes, you will not his or her deposit. I think the rule is imported from Indian system and in Indian system, losing your deposit means candidates who are real bad loser, because they could not even say that at least I did not loose my deposit.)
So , NA candidates who put out their names during the preliminary election but didn’t make to the official list cut of 4 to 6candidates, can still mount a real challenge as ” independent candidate” after some due diligence.
@ white
What pity our society still struggles to have an open mind about things! Those people rush in to annilate anyone who thinks independently and dares to depart from the orthodox views. This is a stuff of real low culture, and stinks of tribal mentality. This is why , if you really think about it, our exile community is such a hostile and unwelcoming environment for thinkers.
If you think Tibet wasn’t theocratic – despite the views by respected scholars – refute it with reason. Don’t resort to personal attacks. Reason your side out and disprove me, if u have two braincells to rub together.
I am really curious why some people are so inspired by Lukar Jam., may be his attitude towards Dalai Lama and CTA, may be his atheistic believe, may be he spent time in Chinese prison for years, may be he got a big mouth, may be simply he advocates Rangzen and he is different. Did Lukar Jam present any inspiring vision for Tibet? No. Did Lukar Jam has any achievement that I am not aware? I doubt.
Anybody who wants Rangzen instead of MWA are welcome but make sure you know you have to get Rangzen from China Not from Dalai Lama or Lobsang Sangye, Penpa Tsering or Zamdhong Rinpoche.
People who says, Lukar Jam just garnered only 7% vote should know that Lukar Jam is so disadvantaged that he is like ” a one legged man in an ass-kicking contest.” Popular American quote to show how disadvantage one is against the other contestant. JN , please quote this in your future discussion when you write or talk about Lukar Jam’s contribution.
@ 210 old monk
I am the happiest when people ask me reasons and when people provide reasons to back up their statement. That is what we supposed to do here I think.
Most moderate definition of theocracy must contain devine rules or devine law based on religious scriptures that can be interpreted and enforced by lay people or religious people. Do we have that? I don’t think so. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is our leader and he is a spiritual person does not make our government a theocracy. Do we have any laws or rules that is based on Buddhist scriptures? Not that I am aware of.
So what makes any of you think we have or we had a theocratic government? This is Chinese propaganda.
A form of government which is rule by a reincarnation of a deity (Chenrezig)and his laws are writen by his own ministers, and these laws being usually administered or forced by a priestly order as his ministers and agents is called theocracy.
US government is theocracy as well but do you really want untheocratic government, you should join China. You won’t hear a thing about deity or God. All you are going to hear is power and money. You and Lukar Jam are totally on the wrong side.
Are you sure Dalai Lama is a reincarnation of chenrezig? Never heard it before.
The homunculus in white’s brain, too long shut in his own little world, is now losing it big time.
Dream :
Don’t forget to read my 209 post . It had detail information on election process.
All others:
Don’t dignify the wacky poster we all know with reply. Start by stop using his pseudonym.
If he doesn’t change his attitude, I have a way to mess up this guy. So far, I like many others are tolerating his dumbing down one agenda , one message post.
My apology to you all.
For you guys, religion (Buddhism) and Dalai Lama are the problem. You guys just don’t want to say it. Anything to do with our religion and Dalai Lama are the problem for you guys. Anybody who stands behind Dalai Lama are bad and wrong and anybody who stand against Dalai Lama are brave and hero. What a shame. You guys can only win against me by trash talking not by logical reasons. Not a chance.
You guys think smarter than rest of the Tibetan people, that’s your delusion. Not believing in religion does not make you smarter. By wearing Rangzen mask does not make better Tibetan. Your character, your language, your approach make you guys extremist, not open minded.
Obviously not believing in religion does not make morally better person by any means. Atheist has killed more people in the world than religious people. Since Lukar Jam and you guys do not believe in religion, you guys can do anything you want as long as it is not caught, kill, steal, and lie, rape and so on. All you guys have to worry about is getting caught. Otherwise it’s fine. You guys have already joined the China with your mentality, attitude towards Dalai Lama and may be majority Tibetan people. Why do you guys want Rangzen, you guys are already on the other side, China.
Look at the attitude of people of Bhutan and people of Thailand towards their King. May be there is something to learn for you guys.
Shakespearean Fan
Bring it on I want to see what you are capable of. I want to see what you are made out of. I want to see what kind of parents you have or had.
I expect nothing more than trash talks from you. Am I wrong?
Some people here even went after His Holiness the Dalai Lama just make me more mad, I guess. You can do the same if you want.
In human history, we had so many great people but none of them were spared from menacing attitude by few that includes Buddha himself and even Elbert Einstein. I guess that’s the nature of humanity.
You can think of me as primitive with tribal mentality or whatever but I belong to the vast majority of Tibetan population.
White!
We believe in Buddhism, not Lamaism. You should know the difference between in these two. He how knows not and knows not that he knows not is not a teachabel, in English saying.
Buddhism has science and science has explanation.
A theocracy is a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god. The dark side of theocracy is, it doesn’t allow you to be open minded about other ideas or patriotism. Example of Banyan tree by JN.
Sikyong 2016 preliminary voting results so far:
For Lobsang Sengye:
Switzerland 1560
North America 3558
For Lukar Jam:
Switzerland 150
North America 610
Many people voted for Lukar Jam simply he calls for Rangzen. Lukar Jam did not win any vote because he is something special, because people believe he can succeed where Dalai Lama failed or because he has new vision for Tibet.
I am sure Lukar Jam have won few votes that I can count on my fingers from posters of this blog simply Lukar Jam is challenging Dalai Lama.
221 Jampel Guretsang
Based on your definition, current Iranian government is not a theocratic government because its ruled by president and parliament members. You asked anybody they will say Iranian government is a theocratic government because their government policies and laws are guided by Islamic Ideology.
Do not get confused by Injee version of our culture.
Following are for your information to think about.
Rabbism
Imamism
Swamism
Priestism
Lamaism
The problem with your quote (“He how knows not and knows not that he knows not is not a teachable”) is who knows which person belong to which category. Obviously your opinion differ from mine so who is going to decide or who can decide?
Despite all the hullabaloo , one thing is clear : lukar jam is scholar Gedun Choephel of our age. He is controversial because he is ahead of his time. He is loathed because he uses logical arguments instead of hiding under an authority figure to impress people.
Our grandchildren will not forgive those who character asssinate him.
I did not know that. Thanks Shakespearean fan. I stand corrected. Has a bit of, the lord giveth and the lord takenth away, idiom about it. To wit – in the prelims, you can vote for anyone with the tacit proviso of there being no guarantees that the independent candidate you have chosen will necessarily be acknowledged and counted?
I liked the part where you can vote for anyone, but white and I worry, such nonpartisan liberality, on the part of us Umaylam Majority and Government, also opens the door to rangzen proponents and other riffraff.
@White: Did you read “My Land and My People” by HHDL and Noodle Makers of Kalimpong by Gyallo Dondup?
Theocracy and Theistic religion are similar to Mankind and Man.
People should that Buddhism is sacrosanct.
Yes, I have read Noodle Makers of Kalimpong. What is your take?
First definition pops up in the Google for the meaning of theocracy is “a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god”.
First half of the definition fits in our system when Dalai Lama rule the government but second half does not.
More over Buddha is not a God or deity. Buddha of compassion or Chenrezig is also not a God or deity. Any of our laws or policies have nothing to do with God or deity or gods. If you think there is one I like to know.
If the theocracy simply means ruled by spiritual person than our government is a theocracy. If this is the case, lets say one of American priests run for president and wins the election, will that make American government a theocracy?
As far as I know theocracy requires two components, God and his law.
It is Chinese propaganda to portray negative image about old Tibet.
@ White: Do you exclude Women in Mankind.
ལྷ་ཆོས་དགེ་བ་བཅུ་དང་མི་ཆོས་གཙང་མ་བཅུ་དྲུག
@ White: Do you exclude Women in Mankind.
ལྷ་ཆོས་དགེ་བ་བཅུ་དང་མི་ཆོས་གཙང་མ་བཅུ་དྲུག
Karze: it is not a divine law. It is code of conduct. Many communities had similar law(?)Most popular was Hamurabi’s law where rules like “an eye for eye” were prescribed .
Thanks for warning Shakespearean Fan in your earlier post. Otherwise I wouldn’t have known its you wearing my mask, “white”. You can go ahead and post anything you like under my name.
People here already know where I stand. Can I wear your mask “Shakespearearn Fan”? And post something you may be interested. I don’t thing I want to waste my time. I will see.
Anything that can be done by anybody
Which Govt has seats in parliament for Religious/sects background?
Which Govt has Oracles (Nechung, Gangdung, tseringMa etc) to help in making or making political decisions?
Which Govt has an official website on their ban on Shugden (another Diety which is not even a govt. oracle)and pictures of Tibetan (specific) people who are protesting peacefully for their religious rights ? (First Amendment under the American constitution which is ABSOLUTE)?
The Tibetan govt’s position is that of a chronically abused wife who thinks that she deserves the abuse because its her fault.
Like everything in life, The Umaylam is a phase that will dissipate away. Gandhi realized that, the old congress of pre-independence realized that, India realized that after 200 years. Tibet will realize it as well.
Rangzen is our birthright and we shall have it. The moment we realize and start showing the world that our identity is not based on one man but each and every one of us.
The moment we start realizing that being homeless and asking for alms will only arouse sympathy and pity and a few pennies.
The moment we realize and show the world that we can take care of our own problems and run our country ourselves.
The moment we realize and show the world that we are proud and we do not need help but are looking for a partnership to make our country great.
That moment we show that we are able and capable individuals who are doctors, engineers, scientists, entrepreneurs, lawyers, businessmen, actors, law enforcement officers, army, computer geniuses, etc. and leaders in our own right who utilize these skills for the betterment of our immediate society.
The moment we realize that we are nyingma, geluk, kargyu, sakya, bon, muslim, Christian, khampa, amdo, utsang, with our own beliefs in our deities such as nechung, gandung, Shugden, thinley gyalpo, tara, etc.etc. and know and understand and respect beliefs that are different from ours. And above all, that we are ONE and we are Tibetans.
That day, my friends, The Tibetan flag will be on top of Potala.
Karze
You are bringing more than 1000 year old law. By then, probably everybody is theocracy. Can you find something in CHARTER OF THE TIBETAN IN EXILE? That is our constitution right now.
JAMYANG LA,
Can you please delete the account who posted comment # 228 and 229 under MY name “WHITE”. Identity theft is a misdemeanor or a felony can be punishable by law.
Otherwise your blog is going to become a trash can.
I really like the blogs like yours where people can openly express their views about our society and our enemy China. I used to post on Phayul but that website had been hacked by China.
#225 OLD MONK
“lukar jam is scholar gedun choephel of our age” ?? Really??
I would love to read some of his(lukar jam) scholarly work. Can u suggest me any??
#235
How would you like to identify a Tibetan? Lets say a man who does not speak Tibetan, does not believe in Buddhism, does not pay green book or does not know anything about Tibet but in fact this man is a Tibet.
Your believe in Rangzen is absolutely your birth right and I am nothing against anybody who believes in Rangzen. I my self believe in NWA because for me it is more realistic based on our circumstances.
In terms of your view on religious involvement in our society, in short, we are different from other societies does not make us wrong or bad.
If you want to talk about Shugden issue, I have to write a different post. Lets start with this, Shugden issue has nothing to do with religious freedom.
And since they r so many lukar jam fan (i see a little difference rangzen Wala and lukar jam), it would be so nice if u guys can tell me any of lukar jam’s leadership experience.. Oh! I remember this one time when lukar jam worked at gu-chu-sum which stands for MWA. Other than that??? Any…
#235
a muslim/bon born in Lhasa has no religious affiliation to Buddhism but he/she is a Tibetan.
paying/not paying green book has nothing to do with being Tibetan? Not paying tax does not take away the fact that you are not Tibetan. And to whom are you paying anyways?
Speaking Tibetan-now that is another old age story- the attempt to pass the Tibetan-ness through language is important but being a Tibetan you necessarily do not need to speak the language. being indian you don’t need to speak hindi. Being Chinese you don’t need to speak mandarin, etc.etc. An Amdo who speaks in Amdo Tibetan language will not speak in Ukay and vice versa but that does not take away their tibetaness.
these are all methods to separate us.
India with all their different castes/classes/religious/sects united due to a common ideology and goal. a tamilian is much an indian as a goan, or a Bengali or a Punjabi or assamese. A Hindu from Gujarat is much an Indian as a Muslim in Kashmir or a Christian in Kerala or a Buddhist in Ladakh. They are all different but they all know they are Indians.
And Shugden issue has everything to do with religious freedom. So I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. This is an issue that is as old or older than Ganden Phodrang (300+). So don’t even go there.
#240 is in response to #238
@ 240
“And Shugden issue has everything to do with religious freedom. So I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about”
Yes, people should have the right to practice any religion and propitiate any deity. Make sure you choose one that is of unconditional love and guides you towards that.
@240
You still did not tell me how you would identify a person being Tibetan. Recognizing citizenship vary country to country but I am not talking about citizenship. Green book is a official ID document. As a matter of fact it is the best ID card we Tibetans carry around these days to prove our Tibetan origin wherever necessary. Responsibilities and rights must go hand in hand. Paying tax is a mandatory responsibility of citizen but since we are in exile paying green book is a voluntary. People who does not take social responsibility has no right to talk about rights. Do you recognize CTA? If you don’t, you can cry and yell as loud as you could from your door step but nobody is going to hear what you are saying.
It does not take much to dilute water in the well and make it unrecognizable. Remember we have only 6 million population.
Related to Shugden issue: lets talk about Mormon religion which was founded by Joseph Smith. This group believe Joseph Smith is one of the messengers of God just like Jesus Christ. Mormons consider themselves to be Christians but Mormonism has historically had an uneasy relationship with traditional Christianity and its branches such as the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and most branches of Protestantism. This is primarily due to the fact that adherents to Mormonism claim that the movement is a “restoration” of the earliest Christian and Judaic doctrines. For such reasons, traditional Christianity regards Mormonism as a departure from Christianity, or a corruption of it.
Since Mormonism could not mingle with main stream Christianity, they build their own world where they practice their faith. Mormonism did not insisted to come among the main stream Christianity. Mormonism did not protest against main stream Christianity for the rejection of Mormons faith as authentic Christian teaching.
Shugden followers can learn from them.
Shugden followers want to come among main stream Buddhism particularly Gelug pa school. Shugden followers want us to accept their faith as Lama Tsongkapa’s teaching. Shugden followers want us to accept their faith as authentic Buddhist teaching. When we reject their demand, they started protesting. Do we have to accept their demand? This is not a freedom of religion.
Until Shugden followers have killed three monks in Dharamsala, there was only fierce debate on the issue. After the incident, drastic measures have taken place by organizations and individuals against Shugden followers such as putting signs saying they are not welcome.
As a spiritual leader Dalai Lama has responsibility to guide his followers in a proper path. Monasteries decided making rules based on His Holiness guidance and vast majority of people supported. Now anyone who does not follow rule and regulations of any organization in the world, consequence is imminent. This one has nothing to do with freedom of religion.
Shugden follower who decided separate from mainstream have enjoyed every right they deserve. For example, small section of Sera monastery and small section of and Gadhen Monastery were separated from the Gelugpa mainstream. Nobody goes to their place and bother them because they are practicing Shugden. Nobody tell them they can not worship Shugden. We are simply saying if you want to come among us as a Buddhist, you can not worship Shugden because we believe Shugden is not a authentic Buddhist teaching. Do we have a right to say this? So where is the freedom of religion?
Right now so many Tibetans are unhappy and mad at Shugden followers because their connection with China and their demonizing protest against our beloved leader His Holiness not because they worship Shugden.
Lets say His Holiness knows Shugden is not a authentic teaching based on his knowledge and experience. As a responsible spiritual leader what is his option, ignore it or explain it to his followers?
Yeah, I also know Shugden or Dogyal was there from period of 5th Dalai Lama.
I also know till recently no one question that Shugden worshippers are not part of Tibetan Buddhism. But , yeah guys, who cares, I have license to change the truth. From now onward, what I say matters, because I am the righteous one now. I also know there is not a thing called water dilutes. But who cares? So, listen, water dilutes, because I am saying it.
Also , don’t forget that didn’t I say America is a theocracy. This blog should be grateful that you have such a learned person of my stature. Otherwise, where on earth you will get to learn things like America is a theocracy?
Without my contributions, JN’s blog is mere skeleton and trash can! In a way, JN should be grateful to me. Without me talking about Shugden and Dalai Lama and demonizing Lukar Jam, what have you people got to talk about? Lowly subjects like Art and literature, or insignificant issues like China’s Xi and Taiwan’s Ma? What is in there? Or may be who among the six person listed as six top vote getters deserve to 2 of our Chithue? Come on, these are earthy topics. Let us talk some more Shugden. You folks, don’t have time, too bad. What some grants from Gaden Prodrang? Dream on. You folks should have special “Sonam”. Get lost. Come on, pay homage to me.
Tenzin Tsekyi : My child, I appreciate your coming to pitch in to support me. But I don’t need much support because I am ignorant enough. Didn’t a wiseman said, ignorance is bliss?
My advice to you is always stay ignorant. Don’t waste time by reading history. Don’t trust anyone who says, Tibet is under illegal occupation, because you never know what is real position of our leaders.
Remember, you only need two important position to beat anyone. One, if you don’t like anyone, say that the person is anti-Dalai Lama. Two, if people are not paying much attention or you don’t have much to contribution in the form of discussion on any issues, just grab the mike, in any gathering and say, – at the top of your voice, Long Live Dalai Lama. If people don’t join you and applaud you, call those people are traitors. There is no way, you can’ loose. See where else can you find advice like this?
Hi White: Now stop impersonating me. I am going to sue you, because my name is patented by Joseph Smith and now I have the ownership. ” U.N.O: I Want Justice. ” ” Down with Lugar Jam and all the Tibetan patriots.” I want to talk some more Shugden, please.
All of you: Come on, bring it on I want to see what you all are capable of. I want to see what you are made out of. I want to see what kind of parents you have or had.
I expect nothing more than trash talks from you. Am I wrong?
Some people here even went after His Holiness the Dalai Lama just make me more mad, I guess. You can do the same if you want.
In human history, we had so many great people but none of them were spared from menacing attitude by few that includes Buddha himself and even Elbert Einstein. I guess that’s the nature of humanity.
You can think of me as primitive with tribal mentality or whatever but I belong to the vast majority of Tibetan population.
#Shakespearean Fan=White#244,245 246,247
I have asked Jamyang la to delete this account and I am waiting for his response. Otherwise don’t be surprise if your boomerang weapon hit you on the face. Do you want me to test you?
Shugden existed during 5th Dalai Lama and he strongly rejected practice of Shugden. So what is your point? More then 90% of renown Tibetan Lamas or masters have rejected Shugden practice in the history of Tibetan Buddhism. Even 13th Dalai Lama have strongly objected Shugden practice. People who say present Dalai Lama started the Shugden issue have no idea what they are talking about. Only after Phapongkha Rinpoche and his students who are highly regarded in Tibetan society especially Junior Tutor Trijang Rinpoche have reawakened the practice of Shugden in Tibetan society. In fact Shugden practice have flourished mostly during the political vacuum between 13th Dalai Lama’s death and 14th Dalai Lama’s early part of life.
To my English professor, dilute not necessarily mean adding water or making it thinner, it could mean adding any other solvent or making it weaker as well.
I sarcastically said American government is theocracy if Tibetan government is theocracy. Look at my other post even fool can tell where I stand.
Here comes your boomerang weapon. Wow I am smart.
Wow? Now I know what a racist is?
I have never ever heard in Buddhist teachings where buddha stopped anyone from coming to his teachings because of what the person followed. I believe it to be the other way round. What type of Buddhism is this?
Appo deepa bhava!!
If you are genuine Buddhist, you have a responsibility to preserve Buddhist teaching. We are simply trying to stop distorting Buddhist teaching from within.
According to you we shouldn’t have different faith Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Christianity and Muslim because separation is a racist.
Looks like this another WHITE is a coward fellow, who couldn’t resist using his own name. His job is to contradict what another WHITE is writing in this forum. Knowingly he choose WHITE as his name to simply put more of his ugly side.
Thanks,Samten. Appreciated. You are one of the wiser one.
#244, 245, 246, 247, 248, are posted by SHAKESPEAREAN FAN. This person has nothing in his/her head that’s why he/she is doing this lowlife job.
Lukar Jam will not be impressed to have this person as a supporter. Why do we need Rangzen if we are going to fill up the country with people like SHACKSPEAREAN FAN and people who want to behave like Chinese, people who want to think like Chinese and people who abhor everything about Tibetan. Such a Rangzen is a self-defeat. Such a Rangzen is not worth of fighting.
#255 is posted by lowlife Shakespearean Fan
OK Jamyang la,
You blocked my account which I was going to imitate SHACKSPEAREAN FAN. Why? Because I am on the otherside. I requested you to delete his account with my name but you ignored. What kind of blog are you running? I thought you are professional at whatever you do but now I am pessimistic. At least I deserve some explanation for your decision.
People here think I have been really after Lukar Jam. If this is my purpose I won’t be on this blog. I rather go to Facebook or other social net working site where message is spread 100 times more than this blog. Would you guys believe if I say I have not posted single message against Lukar Jam on any other social networking site? Yes this is true.
If person like me is not welcome here, I do not know the purpose of this blog. Anyway most of things said on this blog are trash with made in India English which they brag about. My English is bad with lots of mistakes. Some times I make poor choices of word but my focus is message not the language. I always provided evidence and logical reasons to back up things I said. I always asked proved me wrong. Usually I get spew of trashes.
How the hell did you jump to that conclusion. first and foremost Buddhism does not need your protection. The moment you say I as a majority will not have you enter my shop stores give medical help and socially boycott you because of what you worship or look like. That to me is being a rascist. No religion in the world needs to protection from any individual and that is why it’s in the constitutions of the free world as an absolute right.
If you are a genuine Buddhist than you will be practicing meditation and Anna panna, eight fold path and the 4 noble truth. No one is taking away your religious rights and so you have no right to take away someone else’s . Let’s not get into the religious history of tibet cause there is a lot of wars and bloodshed in the name of religion.
We should learn what no to do from Myanmar
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds” – Albert Einstein.
This is what exactly happening to Lukar Jam.
Buddhismt is more than 2500 years old. Do you think it survived without any protection and promotion? Even China says if you want to practice Buddhism, act like Jetsun Milarapa. It make sense because it has a little bit of reality. In fact, vast majority of Buddhist masters of India and Tibet did not spent their life in the cave. They are actively involed within the general population. How would you teach Buddhism to your kids? You have to explain what is Buddhism and what is not. You have to explain the differences.
You made shugden followers seem so inocent who just want to worship their faith. Not true. They are involed in murder and beating people. Recently one of their own revealed how much they are involved with China to destroy our society.
Tibetan people refused to welcome such people.
Buddhism survived because of Buddhas teachings and philosophies of life. yup they are actively involved like rock stars. As parents you expect your kids to have good morals and be good human beings and logical. I don’t want my kids growing up being racists and hating others for what they believe in.
As far as the person or fake monk that u speak of, he was a Sakya monk who was kicked out and then joined the geluk monastery and owes money to a lot of peeps. If what he says is true then cta should hand him over to the Indian govt. and take care of it in a court of law. If he’s in America then the fbi should be interested as well. If it s just on some YouTube or website where this guy blabbers then it’s heresy and has no weight. I saw that tape and he claims he was there in everything so let’s hand him over or start a petition to cta to start legal proceedings against him and whoever he claims are responsible for those murders and get a closure. Otherwise it’s just he said she said and not worth anyone’s cup of tea. Comprende.
What happened to Buddhas teaching and philosophy in India where it supposed to be flourishing more than anywhere else?
“good morals and good human being” based on what? You can’t teach your kids right and wrong because you said so. To become professional or masters you need a teacher, school, books and all kinds of support. Buddhism is a life long study, you need to hear, you need to analyze and you need to contemplate and you need to practice. The bottom line is what you believe. Many Tibetans believe Buddhism is something for monks and monk should remain silence. They should not talk about country, government and leaders. If the people around the world have not shown interest in our Buddhism, monks and lamas would not have become popular. Monks and Lamas in our society will not survive long simply because of growing attitude shown by general population. I understand we have lots of bad monks and lamas but we have so many good monks and lamas as well. We are throwing out the baby with the water. It’s said situation.
So you believe Shugden people are not involved in killing? Do you know how many death threat the monk received from Shugden party before he was killed? Even fool can tell who killed the monks.
Whoever this monk is he knows lot of inside story. Pictures does not lie.
there are other religions as well. A lot of the teachings of Buddhism is incorporated from Hinduism. Buddha’s teachings have flourished throughout the world and is still flourishing in parts of india together with other religion. Religion is based on beliefs of the person. A person does not protect his religion, he believes that his belief in the teachings of the religion protects him. The fact that you are talking about Buddhism in such a way shows that you have not understood the essence of Buddhism sadly. Please remember the eight fold path. Follow it and see.
Furthermore, I reiterate Religion is based on beliefs, Killing is based on facts and court of law not beliefs. Me believing or not believing Shugden people are involved does not mean diddly squat. If this guys has facts then CTA should hand him over to CBI/FBI/ Indian judicial system/American Courts where he can LAWFULLY testify about all the inside story. Not spread hate and heresy and fibs based woven out of his own mind.
What white said is four noble truth.
Btw, Buddhism is 2500 years old. Tibetan/Tantric Buddhism is probably a 1000 yrs old. Geluk form is maybe 400-500 years old. Ganden Phodrang is about 350-400 years old. Shugden issue is maybe 350-400 yrs old.
Buddha started Buddhism to take away caste system, blind faith and expensive rituals away from Hinduism. Where are we now??? The post was to unify Tibetans and not spread hate.
Buddhism flourished to places like Tibet because people made an effort to make it happen. Christianity and Islam are two dominant religion in the world because people made an effort to make it happen. These religions we know today did not evolve themselves. Dalai Lama is making effort to preserve Buddhism to its purist form possible.
My religion (Buddhism) is not based on belief rather it is based on Buddhist teachings. Buddhism created my faith not other way around.
What do you mean by “killing is based on facts”? If you teach killing is not right because it is an illegal, you are absolutely wrong. This message indicates that if you can get away with the murder than its not a problem.
It goes same with Shugden party. Whatever the monk said is false accusation than they can bring him to court and seek justice.
Okay in our society we have four different Buddhist schools, we have Bon religion, Muslims and even Christians. None of them have trouble like Shugden followers, why? His Holiness constantly promote religious harmony throughout the world and why he wants to restrict freedom of religion in his own society and be intolerant to somebody’s faith?
You really have to ask these questions to your self.
Which form of Buddhism you want to believe is totally up to you as long as you don’t claim Scientology is a Buddhist teaching and insist to practice with us or tell us to accept as a fact.
All dieties in Tibetan Buddhism never existed during Buddha’s time. If you want to keep Buddhism in the purest form as Lord Buddha’s teachings then my friend Buddha was all about Hinayana not Mahayana and that is the reason why Buddha never reincarnated. The type of Buddhism that we follow is Mahayana tantric Buddhism.
As far as there being no issues and harmony. Let me go back a little in history. The Nyingmapa never saw His Holiness as their spiritual leader cause they believe that Nyingmapa being the oldest school have their history and richness and are the purest form of Buddhism. Nyingmapa did not flourish in Tibet but more on the outskirts till date. The kargyupa ruled Tibet for a while and claim to be the purest form of Buddhism and they have a long history where when Ganden Phodrang came into existence, how Kargyu regions were completely eradicated and converted forcefully into geluk areas.
Sakyas follow a different thought process where they are not reincarnated but it is passed down their generations like a king and mind you they ruled Tibet for a while as Enlightened Bodhisatvas by birth.
Bonpos have been ostracized and pretty much completely eradicated till recently and are older than Tibetan Buddhism in Tibet. read Langdharma.
So Tibet has had its share of issues with religion and harmony that you speak of.
But this aside, the Tibetans as a whole look upto the Dalai Lama more as a political leader due to the invasion of our country by China. Spiritually, everyone follows their own spiritual masters and gods and dieties. The Muslims have Allah and prophet Mohammed. The Bonpos have their own scriptures and Buddhas which are different from ours.
The Nyingmapas have their Guru Rinpoche and spiritual masters such as Chatrel Rinpoche, Penor Rinpoche and others.
Then Kargyus have their Karmapas (2 or 3) I lost count as well as the Other Dukpa Kagyu.
The Sakyas have their Sakya Rinpoches (2 houses).
The Gelugs have Je Rinpoche and Dalai Lama.
Now the reason why we have this Shugden issue? Let’s see. Shugden is a Gelug diety and has everything to do with Gelugpas and maybe Sakyas as well. But Shugden is just one of many Dharma protectors of the Gelug lineage.
Karmapa is a kargyu Lama. Now there were and still are issues due to the two/three Karmapas in place. I have seen stones being thrown in Gangtok at the monastery and monks fighting. Religious harmony?
Now If I remember correctly Shugden is considered a Demon/spirit and people who worship Shugden Demon worshippers? His Holiness is considered a living Buddha. Till 1970 something when His Holiness was around 40+years old (not a kid), he worshipped this Demon with no issue. Then he stopped worshipping it, which is fine and for the next twenty something years there was no issue. Then in 1996 he condemned and banned this practice stating many reasons over a period of time.
logically, His Holiness was under the influence of a Spirit for 40 Years.
Furthermore, I am not able to comprehend what you do not understand the difference between beliefs and facts.
Religion is based on beliefs as you cannot take someone to court and say I believe that your belief that the world was made in 7 days is wrong. Because that’s a belief. Shugden people consider Shugden to be a dharma protector for their Gelug lineage of Buddhism. That’s their belief. you don’t that’s fine. Don’t practice together BUT not to eat together, sit together, give medical help, not talk, socially boycott and ostracize and character assassinate people. That’s RACISM.
Now, A person is murdered. That’s a FACT. Cause he can’t breathe and there is a stab wound with a knife sticking out of it. There is investigation and that’s a FACT. There are eye witnesses or people that know about the conspiracy about it. These are FACTS that you can process in a court of law. Maybe back then this lama guy was scared of going to court for whatever reason. But now he claims and is broadcasting on internet sites and youtube about the murders and the killings and bribes and Chinese money that were taken. An eye witness and a co-conspirator. Why would the shugden people take him to court for false accusation on a furgasy website when CTA can take him to A LEGAL JUDICIAL system (INdia, America) and prove the murders with this eye witness and seek justice for the deaths. COMPRENDE. Otherwise, it is called HERESY and poisoning of common people’s minds and spreading hatred.
So far, I have mentioned Anna Panna, 4 noble truth and 8 fold path as Buddha’s teachings but you have problems with these as well with your sarcastic remarks about Scientology being a Buddhist teaching. Don’t argue for the sake of arguing???
Obviously you don’t believe in Mahayana Buddhism. Do you believe in Nagarjuna and Aryadeva and many other great Indian Buddhist Masters? Do you believe in great Tibetan Buddhist masters that includes Lama Tsongkapa? Do you believe in Kagur and Tengur? Buddha taught many irrefutable teachings such as four noble truths and noble eightfold paths but the greatest and most profound teaching of Buddha that stood above Hindu and all other religion is teachings of dependent-origination and great compassion(Bodhicitta).
As you suggested in the history we did have problems among different traditions. Because of His Holiness, different Buddhist schools have come together closer than ever before that include Bon tradition. So His Holiness did create religious harmony.
Note: Gelugpa have Je Ringpoche and Gadhen Tripa not Dalai Lama. His holiness is head of no specific Buddhist school.
We Tibetans have so many Dharma protectors or deities but we have only one so called Dharma protector, Shugden full of controversy right from the get-go. More than 90% of Tibetan Buddhist masters have rejected Shugden. As I have mentioned before, Shugden practice wasn’t so vibrant until Paphongka Rinpoche’s rise in popularity after 13th Dalai Lama’s death. Many of Papongka Rinpoche’s students become popular as well like Zong Rinpoche, Zemey Ringpoche Trijang Rinpoche. Shugden worship that we know today is a legacy of Paphongka Rinpoche. This legacy have even touched His Holiness himself through his junior teacher Trijang Rinpoche.
You have to remember Tibetans believe that His Holiness is a emanation of Chenrezig in ordinary human form. Otherwise if he is a living Buddha, he does not need to learn anything and he does not need teachers either. As a human being we can realize our mistake at any point of our life and make changes accordingly. It sounds like you did not listen to many of His teachings about Shugden issue especially why he did not raise Shugden issue early on.
In general, religion is based on faith or belief because everything circles around worshiping god and God’s blessing. Buddhism does involve worshiping deities but that is not essential part of Buddhist practice at all. You don’t even need to worship. Would you say Four Noble Truths or noble eightfold paths are belief or faith. Would you say teachings on emptiness is belief or faith? Would you say teaching on cause and effect are belief or faith? These are irrefutable facts.
Do you smoke? I don’t like seating next to smokers and sharing room with smokers. I won’t even marry smokers. Some smoker may feel racist but I have problem with their smoking habit because that effects my life.
You think we are being mean to the Shugden worshipers. What do we get by being mean to them? What is the purpose? I careless what people worship. They can worship a tree as long as it does not effect what I believe.
If somebody accuse you of stealing, what would you do? You are not going to stay quiet unless you are guilty.
Taking to the court for a case that is occurred some 20 years ago is not easy to say the least. This monk may have heard and seen things but proving it to the court is different story.
Obviously you don’t believe in Mahayana Buddhism. Do you believe in Nagarjuna and Aryadeva and many other great Indian Buddhist Masters? Do you believe in great Tibetan Buddhist masters that includes Lama Tsongkapa? Do you believe in Kagur and Tengur? Buddha taught many irrefutable teachings such as four noble truths and noble eightfold paths but the greatest and most profound teaching of Buddha that stood above Hindu and all other religion is teachings of dependent-origination and great compassion(Bodhicitta).
As you suggested in the history we did have problems among different traditions. Because of His Holiness, different Buddhist schools have come together closer than ever before that include Bon tradition. So His Holiness did create religious harmony.
Note: Gelugpa have Je Ringpoche and Gadhen Tripa not Dalai Lama. His holiness is head of no specific Buddhist school.
We Tibetans have so many Dharma protectors or deities but we have only one so called Dharma protector, Shugden full of controversy right from the get-go. More than 90% of Tibetan Buddhist masters have rejected Shugden. As I have mentioned before, Shugden practice wasn’t so vibrant until Paphongka Rinpoche’s rise in popularity after 13th Dalai Lama’s death. Many of Papongka Rinpoche’s students become popular as well like Zong Rinpoche, Zemey Ringpoche Trijang Rinpoche. Shugden worship that we know today is a legacy of Paphongka Rinpoche. This legacy have even touched His Holiness himself through his junior teacher Trijang Rinpoche.
You have to remember Tibetans believe that His Holiness is a emanation of Chenrezig in ordinary human form. Otherwise if he is a living Buddha, he does not need to learn anything and he does not need teachers either. As a human being we can realize our mistake at any point of our life and make changes accordingly. It sounds like you did not listen to many of His teachings about Shugden issue especially why he did not raise Shugden issue early on.
In general, religion is based on faith or belief because everything circles around worshiping god and God’s blessing. Buddhism does involve worshiping deities but that is not essential part of Buddhist practice at all. You don’t even need to worship. Would you say Four Noble Truths or noble eightfold paths are belief or faith. Would you say teachings on emptiness is belief or faith? Would you say teaching on cause and effect are belief or faith? These are irrefutable facts.
Do you smoke? I don’t like seating next to smokers and sharing room with smokers. I won’t even marry smokers. Some smoker may feel racist but I have problem with their smoking habit because that effects my life.
You think we are being mean to the Shugden worshipers. What do we get by being mean to them? What is the purpose? I careless what people worship. They can worship a tree as long as it does not effect what I believe.
If somebody accuse you of stealing, what would you do? You are not going to stay quiet unless you are guilty.
Taking to the court for a case that is occurred some 20 years ago is not easy to say the least. This monk may have heard and seen things but proving it to the court is different story.
Again, I like the way you jump to conclusions. I don’t believe in this and i don’t believe in that. and Do you believe in this and that? Really??
Buddhism as per Lord Buddha’s Buddhism does not involve dieties. This came in much much much later. And let’s not go into the cause and effect aspect of Buddhism. I have to reiterate the same stuff again and again. Alright, since you want to go into the history of Tibetan Religion. Tell me and show me one reason or situation in the history of Tibet where Shugden has been the cause of something bad. Explain to me that. There has not been just one diety with issues. Nechung that we see today and you can google it was also said to have been the cause of the 13th Dalai Lama’s death? Poison??
I do know that Ganden tripa’s are the holders of the Je Rinpoche line but after Ling Rinpoche I think that was pretty much politicized.
More than 90% of religious leaders have rejected Shugden after 1996. Why so? This diety was there for 350 + years when Tibet was free then why now when Tibet has lost it’s independence and why did these so called religious leaders reject shugden after the demise of Trijang Rinpoche and Zemey Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche. The ones that you mentioned. Why not during their lifetime????
The So called Trijang Rinpoche was a two time Ganden Tripa (According to you Gelugpa has Je Rinpoche and Ganden Tri) and was a worshipper of Shugden and So was Ling. The Third Trijang was not a Ganden Tripa as three in a row is not allowed. Sic.
Most of the Gelug lamas that you talk about today were all disciples of Trijang and Pabhongka lama and based on your smoking law which is absolutely absurd then they are all smokers and anyone who smokes from them are smokers and you hate smokers except people who smoked for half their lives and have given it up now. You will not marry a smoker but a divorcee smoker will do???
You state that you don’t like to sit next to smokers or share a room with smokers or marry smokers. So, if a smoker is not smoking at the time and is eating or drinking or playing you will still not sit next to him or share the room with them even if they are not smoking at that time because you hate smokers. WOW!! you got some major issues buddy. I don’t think I can help you there. KKK is always hiring?
If somebody accuse you of stealing?? What are you getting at. Have you heard the saying innocent unless proven guilty? I have absolutely no clue what you are referring to here?
And lastly taking to court for a case that occurred some 20 years is not easy but is NOT DIFFICULT as well if it is such a highly publicized issue and that has been repeated time and time and time again for the last 20 years esp. now when we have SUCH A GREAT WITNESS/ CO-CONSPIRATOR who can give the INS and OUTS of the whole thing. So what about giving it a TRY??
Actually from my own understanding, Shugden is harmful for communal harmony as it’s becomes somewhat the root cause of disharmony between religious communities. Not every cat and dog goes after Shugden and invoke it. And why we need a worldly spirit to guide us, when there are ample of highly realized masters around us, and most importantly the essential teachings of the Buddhas and the Nalanda masters still alive for us to dwell deep within our innate nature of the mind. What more can we ask?
And there are instances in our own yard of families being torn apart due to this evil spirit. I myself saw the photos being kept on the altar in their shops as it brings some sort of materialistic luck. But there are few realized masters who simply worship Shugden as a servant in their spiritual quest and not as Yadams and Buddhas, as the ignorant western protestors shout of religious right instead of spirit right.
In one case, a certain group of Shugenpas also tried to burn up the building of a local camera man at Mcleod Ganj, in order to create communal disharmony. And there are many bad examples of Shugenpas involvement in the killing of a famous Geshe, as he was their main opponent.
So in many ways due to certain notorious Shugdenpas behavior and ill doings, many ordinary among them had to suffer and still in discomfort.
It is quite evident that those who believe and worship this evil strip can do so, as there are monasteries in South India specially reserved for them. And if there are families still suffering due to some sort of fear that once not propitiated, this spirit might harm them. It is time for them to receive the blessings of H.H. The Dalai Lama and get rid of this habit.
Stay free from Spirit Worship and study the works of the great masters of Tibet and India, practice and cultivate them.
You should ban (?) He is speaking the language of Spakespearan fan ? I think he or she is Shakespearan van. Because it will make White angry and without White the blog will become what he describe?
White ! White ! More or White!! Please, more of White!
“Buddhism as per Lord Buddha’s Buddhism does not involve deities” Doesn’t this sound like jumping into conclusion? The definition of “deity” is “A supernatural being, like a god or goddess, which is worshipped by people”. Are you sure such a thing did not exist or did not mentioned by Buddha himself? I don’t want to get into detail but I give you a hint. Have you heard of Four Direction Guardians, or Four Guardian Kings, or the Four Heavenly Kings. In Tibetan, Gyalchen Dheshyee. Idea of protector deities are originated from Buddha himself.
Once is chance or rumour, twice is coincidence or accident, third time is a pattern and somebody is doing it, fourth is enemy action. It seems like you need to read more history about Shugden. You don’t need to go too far. Ask some Nyingma pa people about Shugden. You said “Tell me and show me one reason or situation in the history of Tibet where Shugden has been the cause of something bad”. Here we go, three monks killed in Dharamsala in 1997
Gadhen Tripa is the head of Gelug pa sect and holder of Je Tsongka pa’s thrown. This is not a subject of dispute at all and even this if you don’t admit it I am wasting my time. I am talking about rejecting Shugden by 90% of Tibetan masters since Shugden came into existence. Ling Rinpoche never worshiped Shugden. Phapongka Rinpoche and popular disciples are masters in their generation but in the history of Gelugpa linage, there are far more greater masters existed. So don’t get carried away. You just need to read more about Shugden issue before you make conclusion.
Western government must be hating smokers as well. There are all kinds of laws restricting smokers. There are signs all over saying smokers are not welcome on their property.
I do not know where you got these ideas about boycotting medical help and not socializing with Shugden followers. There may have been incidents here and there but you can not generalize. I do hang out with Shugden worshipers and talk to them about issue as well. One time I met this young guy who happen to be Shugden worshiper and he said “this is what my parent have been doing and whatever my parents say I will do it” and I said your parents are not Buddha so they can make mistakes.
Shugden party is accused of involvement in murder and money laundering from China by one of their own but the party is quiet. Are you saying you will stay quiet if somebody accuse you of stealing? Yes or no?
Now that is pretty amazing. A geluk spirit it is but you want me to ask nyingma pa sect about the harm done by this spirit. It’s like asking me to ask the Christians about the Jews or the Christians about Muslims. The logic behind it is absurd. Secondly again the three monks were not killed by a spirit but by people with whatever agenda they had. people are good and bad. Just because a person is Christian doesn’t mean he is Jesus christ he could be Hitler. Don’t spread hatred based on religion. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth….
Furthermore I reiterate again there was no form of spirit worship in lord Buddhas doctrines. If you want to change that then get rid of all the 1000+ spirits in the tibetan realm. Or you can go old school and have these great masters eliminate this evil spirit. Or all these oracles and shugden can get together and wipe out this spirit which has been here for 400 years now. It has already outlasted 9 reincarnations of his holiness and doesn’t seem to go away. No one knew about this shugden but today it is highly worshipped in tibet due to China’s influence and in the western world as we have all seen. Previously us Tibetans didn’t know how to distinguish between this world guys but now Injis Chini desi guys and even BbC talks about it. So do u think it’s going away with all the negativity and seperation within the small tibetan community. I don’t have to research on shugden and don’t care much for it but the cta has a whole website on it and then there are contradictions to this website with other website with equal or greater explanation for a neutral mind. So are we tibetans fighting for our country or promoting shugden worship. Look At history Ram would not be famous if not for Ravan and pandavs if not for kauravs. Now who is ram and who is ravan only history and time will tell.
Tibets great history is all through adoption. We Tibetans had nothing up there. Maybe Bon as a religion. The fine ornaments and clothing were courtesy of the Mongols, the fine food was thru china, the script and fine Buddhist religion thru India. All masters such as kachen shiwachen, Jo palden Atisha, guru padmasambhava are all Indians.
There were much greater killings and murders done in tibet history like any other.
You stated that a shugden kid told you that it was passed down to him by his parents. Well that’s how the world works. We are born Buddhist Hindus Christians etc based on our karma and we try to find the good in it and work according to it. Some of us might change it and adopt something else so your explanations and arguments always lacks reason. No religion teaches us to go and kill someone lie cheat etc. That is the individual. Just because shugden does not fit you does not mean it does not fit him. But since it does not fit you, and u are told it’s wrong does not make it wrong. I have not seen any shugden guy asking someone else to convert or worship their deity yet, I have listened to their comments and it’s always let us worship our dharma protector without being judged ridiculed ostracized neglected and as fellow Tibetans. Now if you give shit to someone don’t expect roses in return.
Furthermore I don’t think the shugden guys were quiet about the stated monk as the individual who he pointed out has a few videos of his own explaining his side of the story and calling the monk out. Now it is upto CTA to legally take action with the Indian govt in regards to the case and see if there is any truth in the matter through investigation. If not then this is just another mockery of religious hatred to separate and divert us from our common goal that is tibets unity and freedom. Appa deepa bhava.
? Thank you for your very educating post. It will not in million years change the mind of people like White, but it will really mellow the ferocity of people of people like Samtens.
You asked me if Shugden has caused any harm in the history. I said ask the victims (Nyingma pa) You want to know about the harm you ask victims and it is very logical.
Shugden caused people to kill. Their agenda is kill people who oppose Shugden worship.
Do you believe in a story of Four Directional Guidance with Buddha? The first Hindu god cooperated into Buddhism? Yes there you have it idea of protector deity. I am asking you specifically this story because it is considered part of Hinayana teaching. And if you believe in Kagyur and Tengyur you are going to here deity story all over the place.
Shugden was worshiped by many great lamas staring from Sakya Lamas and Phapongka Rinpoche and all his disciples and His Holiness the Dalai Lama but as a low level protector deity. But these day Shugden is worshiped as a main protector deity and sometimes even as a Yidham. This one even contradicts with their own teachers.
You make it sound like Shugden is becoming popular and spreading. That is not true at all. We are dealing with very very small fraction of population. Shugden website claims they have four million followers world wide. For get about four million, if there are hundred thousand followers worldwide, I will be surprised. If they can lie bold like this, the rest is piece of cake for them. May be you can help me with the number.
Most of the civilizations around the world browed the ideas, cultures, foods, cloths even policies from one another that includes India, China and Mongolia. Why are you picking on Tibet? So you don’t know anything about countless our native Buddhist masters? Please read.
There are so many things in this world does not fit with my faith but I don’t challenge them. Why should I? I challenge Shugden because it distorts my faith.
Do you think this monk is getting paid by somebody to say things about Shugden worshipers? Why does he want to spread hatred? If China is not paying these Shugden protesters to demonize Dalai Lama, we are not going to hear all these noise.
Racism has seeped into your core. Your logic and explanations are absolutely horrendous and I think you should open up the sites, check the number of monasteries in tibet and population of Tibetans in tibet following this diety. There are certain regions that are known for it. There are monasteries in India as well. Then check their site and see all the centres in the world that follow it? It is definitely and has definitely grown in leaps and bounds and is not tibet centric. It’s high time we accept that and stop fooling ourselves. Furthermore the population of tibet in exile is minuscule as compared to the Tibetans in Tibet and China as well. Look at the voting numbers. The total number is smaller than some small towns in India.
You claim it was some small low level diety back then but there are always two sides to a story and you should do your check and see the history written on it by others as well. Have a neutral mind. Furthermore Jesus was not known till a few hundred years after his crucifixion and there are various books by different disciples that have minor contradictions on it. Now Christ was born a Jew and killed by his own. Today there are more Christians in the world than Jews.
You claim that shugden kills people that oppose its worship? Why ? Is it that powerful ?
Sadly you never seem to get the point and you have a hard time accepting the fact that tibet has a rich culture thru adoption. Why is it so should have been your question? Why are you offended by it? That’s true and not a bad thing?
Furthermore please don’t make lord Buddhas buddhism weak and I repeat myself there were no diety worship in buddhas time.
If there are higher dieties and great masters where were they when tibet was occupied and my family was brutally murdered by the Chinese. Where were these oracles you speak of when my ancestors had to flee the country and become refugees. Where are they now when you want umaylam and want to live like second class citizens treating the shugden Walas as third class citizens in your own country. There are not even helpful in negotiating a deal to get back.
Let me ask you when tibet was invaded who fought for the country? Which lama was responsible for forming this army? Who was responsible for the safe passage of his holiness and others to India? Which diety was responsible for this formation? How are all of them treated today?
Guy I’m done with your rascism and stereotypical one sided remarks. Rangzen all the way. Rangzen is my birthright and I shall have it.
White and ? two sides of the same coin
? in the name of Rangzen using this platform to push Shugden Propaganda. And white under the garb of CTA and HHDL’s name using this blog to attack all people who have a difference of opinion or view from his.
Both are ignorant fools and not good for Tibet and Tibetans
Racism, I am surrounded by people from all walks of life, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, I do not have a slightest problem with them in general. Of course I have a problem with people who bothers my life, my family, my religion, my society, my country and so on. This is called natural reaction not racist but if you want to call it racist than let it be. There is nothing I can do.
We don’t go to protest in front of Shugden monastery or Shugden Lama they come to protest in front of Dalai Lama. Who is bothering who now?
Please can you refer me the Shugden website that details number of Shugden worshippers around the world. Couple thousands worshippers in the South India, couple thousands worshipers scattered around other part of India and Nepal, couple thousand worshipers from other countries, that brings around fifty thousands worshipers total. So the rest has to be in Tibet to make it four million worshipers. You must be kidding.
Bottom line, if you believe Shugden is powerful and authentic Buddhist deity, that is yours. You can build the monasteries, spread the message, take oath by betting your life but live us alone.
You repeated many times “no deity worship Buddha time”. This one boils down to believing in Vajarayana Buddhism. Protector deities are part of Vajarayana practice. Vajarayana teachings not taught openly. Its considered secret teaching. If Mahayana teachings are not taught by Buddha, who can teach such a profound teaching?
Again worshiping deity is never essential part of Buddhist practice and I can give up worshiping any deity any time if His Holiness suggest me to do it.
Shugden wala prefer China over Dalai Lama. His Holiness who is recognized by Tri Jang Rinpoche himself as a emanation of Chenrezig is called by Shugden wala, stop lying Dalai Lama and false Dalai Lama and so on. Shugden wala do not hesitate beating and killing people in the name of Shugden. So where is the integrity of Shugden wala’s claim?
If you want to talk about Rangzen and Umai Lam and Lukar Jam I am ready.
There you go, you answered the definition of a rascist and blind faith without answering the questions asked. The u believe this and u believe that stuff. Cmon guy. 50 thousand just outside tibet based on your estimate and that’s a small number. What’s the tibetan population outside tibet. Ok and what’s the gelug portion out of that since this is a gelug question? You avoided the other questions but that’s fine I understand why? Now about rangzen and umaylam. That might be a debate for u. It’s a question of birthright and identity for me. Umaylam is available in Tibet as we know it. U can go anytime u want to and they will welcome u. Take care and get well soon.
The problem I have with Shugden worshipper is that they openly support China in their public debates – It is on Youtube for everyone to see.
Another bewildering things is that they place their Guru (Dismis Buddha) above historical Buddha Shakya Muni.
I at the same time agree that since we call Rime – Non-sectarian let others do their worship who ever they choose to and expect the Shugden followers to respect others as well.
Can you help me to find four million worshipers please? Just give me rough count. Lets start from India. I did not say 50 thousand Tibetan worshipers in Exile. With my maximum estimate count, I am finding not more than 50 thousand worshipers including Injhees not counting in Tibet. Actual number may be way lower than 50 thousands. Two major monasteries that are known for worshiping Shudgen are Sera Pompra Khamtsen which holds not more thousand monks and Gadhen Shartse which holds not more than thousand monks either. These two monasteries are epicenter of Shugden worship. There are numbers of Shugden Dharma centers here and there which may hold 10 to couple hundred members max. Can you do the math now and come with four million?
If you can call me racist than I can call Shugden party fundamentalist or terrorist.
Which question you want me to answer? One or two at a time please. If you read my comments properly you will find the answers.
White !
I have mentioned few times that who has identified Shugden is an evil spirit or a good spirit. What is spirit for you, your mind, your soul or your consciouness ? This kind of beleive promotes splitism in our community who have blind faith and superstitious believe. This is a Lamaism system which came from India through Mt. Kailash in 9th century. Lamaism is a combination of Hinduism, Bon, Politics and Buddhism. Buddhism has science and science has explanation. Same with Tulku system which promotes corruption in our Buddhist community.
Amnesty International, National Human Rights Commission, and other legal jurisdictions have dismissed Shugden Party’s accusations against Dalai Lama and CTA. There are no evidence of abuse or mistreatment found because someone is worshiping Shugden. Authoritie of Sera, Drepung, Gadhen, Gueto, Gumey and Tashi Lhunpo monasteries are responsible for management of Lama Tsongkapas teaching. Authorities of these organizations headed by Gadhen Tri pa overwhelmingly supported Dalai Lamas advice. I know you don’t like blind faith but there are documents to prove what I just said. Lama Kalsang Gyaltsen, Lama Gangchen and others alike have zero authority to talk about Lama Tsongkapas Teaching. They can only distort Lama Tsongkapas teachings and make money and fame.
Shugden issue is only related Lama Tsongkapas teaching or Gelug sect, I will not talk about Buddhism in general. It is easier to talk when issue is kept closer to the source.
If you have one evidence to prove authenticity of Shugden, I have 10 evidence to disapprove.
Let me ask you same question in a different way because you don’t like when I use word “believe “. Do you know four noble truths are taught by Buddha? If yes how? What kind of evidence do you have beside saying somebody said so.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/catalonia-lawmakers-approve-2017-secession-from-spain/
Oh I forgot. This is where only Shugden issue is discussed.
Please go take a shower White. I’ll look after your blog.
By many, great Ningma Lamas, great Sakya lamas and great Gulug lamas that includes fifth Dalai Lama identified Shugden as evil spirit or joongpo in Tibetan. When people die this thing called namshey moves to next life. We are not going to find exact term in English. Between old life and new life namshey remain as spirit or whatever. Because of namshey we have reincarnation and law of karma, enlightenment and so on.
From Western Shugden Society website says “It is now also practiced by many thousands of Western Buddhist practitioners”. So it counts in thousands not in millions from one of their own source. I am still looking for four million worshippers worldwide.
Debate between Middle way and Rangzen advocates is important for our democracy to move forward. We all should contribute our ideas in a constructive manner.
I thought we were done on this topic. But you want to go on and on and on with your vicious cycle of religious hatred. why don’t you start a voting system and vote on how many people are shugden worshippers? Guy, you came up with the 4 million number…Read your own comments.. Who cares? 5000 is a big number. Look at the Tibetan Voting??? Since, you don’t want to give up I had to do a little research myself. There are contradictions to all your statements with evidence. Now you can google it as well. Sakya was the one that gave the shugden the name. the 5th Dalai Lama from whom Ganden phodrang started stated in another passage of his the greatness of this spirit and the story of Mindroling etc. It took his Holiness the Enlightened one 40+ years to realize that this spirit is evil based on his investigation done by the 5th Dalai Lama. Then the 13th had issues but was poisoned by Nechung the state oracle due to which Nechung was out of the picture for a while. You want to keep it in the gelug so lets see who are the high lamas in the Gelug lineage that denounced the worship BEFORE HIS Holiness did so in 1996. You claim Ling Rinpoche did not worship it but there are contradictions there as well. You claim Ganden Tripas are the holder of Je Rinpoches teachings and Two of the prior Trijang lama are Ganden Tripas with the third being the greatest gelug lama of this century. The teacher of His Holiness, the intellectual, philosopher, writer of National Anthem, the root guru of all gelug lamas today preaching Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings and that claim Shugden is evil now such as Samdong, etc.
The three pillars that fought for Tibet’s freedom in the 50’s are Chushi Gangdruk under Andrugtsang Gonpo Tashi, Trijang Rinpoche who spearheaded this, and Shugden who showed the way. It’s very well known among the guerilla fighters about this story and is based on historical facts. Probably, Jamyang Norbu can back this as well since he should know the details of this piece of forgotten history and write an article as his knowledge is far greater than mine or anyone I know.
So evil or not, spirit or dharma protector, it is being used today to split the Tibetan society and religious hatred such as yours, are the reason why there are protests and turmoil within the society. I know you will DEFINITELY argue this with your one dimensional counter arguments as you seem to really hate this shugden a lot and YOU will want to have the last word. LOL. But do freshen up and have some food before that. But it does not serve any purpose for the betterment of the Tibetan cause other than disrupting and creating schism within our small society.
When people protest peacefully, as we do in front of the UN and other countries, a GOOD Govt’s responsibility is to understand the needs of these people and see if things can be worked out through dialogues and talks. What do these people want? What are the asking for? Is it feasible? Is it an internal issue? When people protest it is usually the weaker ones that have no other options??
Now if this was done at any stage then I would say OK? CTA did something? I don’t know of any dialogues that were done AFTER these protests took PLACE other than SHUNNING THEM and taking pictures of them and DEMONIZING THEM and FURTHER Ostracizing them. Mind you, CTA is not a legal Govt with a country like India or America. It is not recognized by any country and so Int.Commissions do not have any jurisdictions over it. It’s treated like an Organization but as fellow Tibetans it is our duty to realize and understand the needs of the minorities and increase our STRENGTH for a common goal. NOT Shun them based on their beliefs. Jesus is considered a prophet by the Jews and a SOn of God by the Christians. Now if these two argue on these then there is no RESOLUTION. They will argue and then fight and fight and fight and 2000 years later still fight.
Again This is not about Shugden or His Holiness or Religion it is about tibets’ freedom and how we as individuals show the world that even in our differences we are still ONE and independent and can take care of our OWN Country ourselves. Rangzen is my birthright.
You should ban (?) He is speaking the language of Spakespearan fan ?
Catalan Parliament Starts Secession Debate in Showdown With Madrid
(?)
Thanks for all your in put. I learnt a lot. I have challenge White on issues of middle path and he always drag us down and tie it with Sugden. My son is a high schooler and I always teach him to be open minded. I think with Shugden or Dogyal issue, there is two types as with middle pathers: one China instigated and other real innocent real believers. As the Tibetan proverb says, it is easier to debate with a scholar than with a misguided idiota.
Rangzen itself is questionable if true histories are told. “Rangzen is my birthright” declaration is created for a political propaganda by erstwhile serf owners whose actual political power confined to what Chinese called Front and Back Tibet which essentially means U and Tsang including Ngari region. Of course, you can fantasize whatever you want, you can’t change current of evolution and history!
NG
Shugden is the offspring of Lamaism and Tulku is also offspring of Lamaism. This is all corruptionalized in Buddhism and created out of blind faith and superstition. We all are victims of this corruptive system of illogicalized idea brought from non-Buddhist system. For example, we see and exprience in all Tibetan monasteries when a 3 year boy who doesn’t even know Tibetan alphabets is recognized as reincarnation of his previous life and made him to sit on a highest seat at ceremony and whereas those Geshes and Khenpos who have been studying whole life were sitting on the floor. These Tulkus have private teachers, special kitchen with special cooks,private attendence, special car with driver, special rooms with special decortion, special TV sets, Apple laptop,latest Iphone etc. Think ,,,,,,,
During 13th Dalai Lama, Phapongka Rinpoche himself admitted Shugden worshipping is a mistake,
“I have received from you through Tse Khendron Chenmo. (I am glad that) you have received my application of 22nd of the 12th month last year, and I am grateful that you have kindly clarified each and every point therein. It was entirely my mistake and I have absolutely nothing to say (to defend it). It will be my endeavour in the future to take the meaning of your instructions earnestly to heart and I ask your forgiveness”
Some of the masters who are greater than Phapongka Rinpoche and Trijang Ringpoche by their contributions are as follows and objected worshipping of Doegyal:
Fith Dalai Lama
Trichen Ngawang Chokdhen
Phurchok Ngawang Jampa
Changka Rolpai Dhorjee
Yongzin Yeshi Gyaltsen
Thupten Lobsang Choekyi Nyima
Jegmey Dhamchoe Gatsoe
These are just from Gelug linage.
I have utmost respect to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoch as masters, philosophers, geneous, teacher of His Holiness. That said, spiritually, Yongzin Ling Rinpoche has higher status than Trijang Rinpoche. Again Ling Rinpoche never worshipped Shugden. Prove me otherwise. You have to remember that these two spiritual beings are so famous and highly recognized mostly because of their status as a teacher of His Holiness otherwise they are as good as their peers.
Yes if TriJang Rinpoche is Gadhen Tripa at present time, absolutely he has authority to say the final word but this is not the case. Present authorities of Gelug linage overwhelmingly decided to abide by the His Holiness’s advice.
If you have any clue about relationship between spiritual teacher and spiritual student, 40 years counting from birth is nothing. His Holiness cares about his followers, he cares about Gelug pa teaching thats why he decided to come out and clarify. Otherwise he could have at least ignored the issue and move on his life without Shugden. Some ignorant Westerners mentioned that His Holiness has political agenda with Shugden issue but they failed to mention what is his political agenda.
In your previous comment you said we Tibetan have nothing. Do you recognize CTA as our government irrespective of what others view? Thats the question it matters and I don’t have good feeling about your view towards Tibet as a whole despite of your continues claim of being hardcore Rangzen advocate.
If Shugden party can lie with such a bold face like claiming four million worshippers around the world when actual number could be around 50 thousand followers around the world , everything else is piece of cake for them. You prove me wrong now.
Oh ya, killing people, taking money from China, working for China, demonizing Dalai Lama are all peaceful protest, right?
Nobody goes to Shugden Lama or Shugden monastery to protest calling shugden is demon. Nobody interferes with their worship. All the accusations are proven wrong. Most likely Lama Kalsang Galtsen is not even truly Geshe with degree and Lama Gangchen is nothing but trash. These two are leading the Shugden party. Its just laughable.
I won’t have problem embracing somebody who believe in tree as long as the person do not say it is Lama Tsongkapa’s teaching. Do you get this right. Faith is not the problem. The problem is their false claim which distorts my faith.
Surely I will have the last word because if you have one reason to prove Shugden is right than I have ten reasons to prove Shugden is wrong.
Your information is derived from the CTA website:
http://ftp.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references-fifth-dalai-lama/trinchen-ngawang-chokdhen
AND
This is what they say and MORE:
https://truthaboutshugden.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/the-dalai-lamas-research-concerning-past-masters-and-dorje-shugden/
Again, this is all a click away from google.
I don’t think this is the forum for this discussion as it takes away from the point in place about RESOLUTION and UNITY for the Tibetan Cause.
My question would be WHY did the Dalai Lama condemn this ban in 1996 and not in 1959 or even in 1970’s when he gave the practice up? What happened in the 1970’s that changed the whole dimension. I think it has more political motivations than Religious? But let’s not dwell in it. Move on. Let’s solve the problem not ADD fuel to the FIRE.
Take care for I think I have spoken enough on this matter and it’s not helping our cause. Get well soon.
I actually agree more with #295.
I meant #300
@White: Cut some slacks for Shugden followers as you have been very generous even towards PRC.
Why Tibetans are still embroiled in sectarian strife in 21st century which will only give free hands and leverage to occupation forces in Tibet.
White !
Why you worry too much about Shugden followers. Like you, they are all in the boat of superstition and blind faith. But, they are much wiser thsn you who can fight for their religious freedom. Whether the Shugden is evil or good, everybody has right to believe in their own system.
In Hinduism, many people worship cow, rocks (shiva linga), monkey ( Ganesh ),rats etc and they all have rights to have religious freedom and they are granted it. Why should we take away religious freedom of Shugden followers. This is an insane action. These are Tibetans, like Bon followers and Tibetan Muslim.
Palden Lhamo, Nechung, Shugden etc. are all same. These deites are nothing but our blind faith creates fear within us and make us to beleive and this is our stigma rest of our life. Buddhism is very helpful to clear our fear and stigma.
I White on this blog is here not here for nothing. This is wher my bread and butter comes from. It pays my mortgage and pays for my dog food.
http://www.phayul.com/mobile/?page=view&c=1&id=36724
After His Holiness statement above, I White offer my apology to all Shugden worshippers.
#299 That was said and the MINDSET of the Britishers 200 Years prior to Indian Independence. History shows and time and TIDES change very quickly. Rangzen is my birthright.
If you think Shugden party has a chance of winning debate, they wouldn’t have killed monk scholar in Dharamsala. This monk scholar was one of the first to come out and openly debated with fake geshe Kalsang Gyaltsen in England. Fake Geshe did not stand a chance for winning so Shugden party had to killed the monk after repeated death threats.
I will not read a thing from Shugden Party until I see those protesters in front of Chinese Embassy to protest against China who destroyed Shugden monasteries and killed Shugden people. Shugden Party has no problem with China but Dalai Lama. They love Chinese money why should I read their website? Their website claim to have four million worshippers around the world and you could not even come up close. Why should I waste my time by reading all the manipulated stories?
Did you know His Holiness openly opposed Shugden worship when Trijang Rinpoche was alive? He even asked Trijang Rinpoche to stop worshipping and asked Tri Jang Rinpoche to advise his followers to stop worship. Of course you do not know it. You only know half the story that’s why you have a problem.
Ambition of Rangzen is a very honorable thing, please do not disgrace it. Rangzen is a wish list of every Tibetan. Rangzen is a dream of every Tibetan. Many people here do not even deserve to say Rangzen from their mouth. They behave like a Chinese, they think like a Chinese, they hate Dalai Lama and CTA like a Chinese, but they say they want Rangzen. What kind of absurdity is this?
You guys have a match here, NG from China. Different person but wearing same fashion. Nothing to say but good at twisting stories around with some unusual English words.
http://www.dnaindia.com/entertainment/report-when-kamal-haasan-met-the-dalai-lama-2144222
#298 I see your point.
1. Dalai Lama was born citizen of Manchu empire but of ethnic Tibetan. It is same as Mustangki of Nepal or Korean of China. Refer to Dalai Lama’s autobiography.
2. The border between China and Tibet was Drigchu in western Kham. Read biography of Baba Phuntsok Wangyal and Tubetan Givernment letter to U.N about some territory and boundary.
3. 17 points agreement was bound only Tibetan territory which is as said before.
4. Regarding political map of Tibet, refer to JN’s phamlet about Case for Independent Tibet!
13th Dalai lama’s much twisted Declaration of Independence for his own little fiefdom consist of U, Tsang, Ngari, Western Kham including Chamdo, Montawang currently governed by India to which TGIE endorses to snub Chinese claim as south Tibet based on history and virtually no Amdo territory.
5. Tibet’s social system was governed monastic estates holders and hereditary aristocrats families. At best, it was a mediaval feudal society at best, a sort of mild slavery society as described by Mel Goldstein in his anthropological study, whom JN labelled as one of the bare foot experts. Whereas Kham and Amdo society was governed by chieftains, not bat lamas or fiefdom owners like aristocrats descent!
NG
His Holiness the White is showering. Please Stand by. He will be RIGHT BACK to puke some more.
Low life Shakespearean Fan posted #313
As many people here are disgracing true Rangzen advocates by behaving like Chinese, those people who side with China in the name of Shugden are also disgracing those humble Shugden followers. We must distinguish between people who genuinely want to advocate Rangzen with respect to His Holiness and CTA and people of Tibet and those who just want to create trouble in the name of Rangzen and democracy. Surely vast majority of Shugden followers respect Dalai Lama and has no ill feeling towards CTA. Only few lowlife people want to abuse the situation to establish their personal life in the name of Shugden issue.
Please stand by for more broadcast from His Holiness the White. His Holiness will disclose in His next holy sermon by disclosing who are disgracing Rangzen and who are real Shugden worshippers. Have patience. Don’t follow the lowlife.
# 316 is posted by Lowlife Shakespearean Fan under my name.
Sakya Trizin, the present head of the Sakya tradition, states that some Sakyas worshipped Shugden as a lower deity, but Shugden was never part of the Sakya institutions. In a letter written by him in 1998, Sakya Trizin states:
“Dorjee Shugden is not practised by Sakyapas as a group or community. But there are a few Sakyapas who practice it individually. In my opinion, it is much better for Western Buddhists to practice Dharma Protecting deities which are transmitted from the Tantra treatises”.
Lama Jampa Thaye, an English teacher within both the Sakya and the Kagyu traditions and founder of the Dechen Community, maintains that “The Sakyas generally have been ambivalent about Shugden. The usual Sakya view about Shugden is that he is controlled by a particular Mahakala, the Mahakala known as Four-Faced Mahakala. So he is a ‘jig rten pai srung ma, a worldly deity, or demon, who is no harm to the Sakya tradition because he is under the influence of this particular Mahakala”.
Then there are Tibetan Buddhist masters who regard Dorje Shugden as a destructive and malevolent (or demonic) force, like the 5th and 14th Dalai Lama, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, Mindrolling Trichen Rinpoche, former head of the Nyingma school, and Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche. The latter one is head of 25 monasteries in Bhutan and holds the view: People who practice Shugden “will get a lot of money, a lot of disciples, and a lot of problems.”
There we go you have it from none CTA source
The view that Dorje Shugden is a worldly, low level protector can be supported by the fact, that Shugden is invoked by oracles. There are no oracles for Buddhas within Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. One of these oracles is Kuten Lama, an uncle of Kelsang Gyatso, who has served as an oracle of Dorje Shugden for more than 20 years, for both monastic and lay Buddhists who sought divine assistance.
The Fifth and the Thirteenth Dalai Lama were opponents of Shugden worship. The Life-Entrusting (Sogde, srog gtad) practice was seen by the Thirteenth Dalai Lama as going against the Buddhist principles of refuge (Triratna); therefore he scolded Pabongkha Rinpoche for it. In a letter to the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, Pabongkha Rinpoche replied that he had made a fault. He excused himself for having acted against the triratna-pledges and for having provoked the wrath of Nechung. He explained that the deity (lha) Shugden played a special role at the time of his birth, and he promised to stop worshipping Shugden and to avoid performing the rituals regarding that deity.[101] However after the death of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, Pabongkha began to spread the practice even more than previously.
Pabongkha’s influence grew after his own death to further heights. Samuel, “In fact, Pabongkha’s influence was strongest after his death and that of the 13th Dalai Lama, and particularly after the forced resignation of the regent Reting (Ratreng) Rinpoche in 1941 and his replacement by Tagtrag Rinpoche, who had been a close associate of Pabongkha and shared his conservative orientation. It was at that time that Pabongkha’s students gradually moved into the dominant position that they have held within the Gelugpa order into the 1970s and 1980s.”
Do you guys want more from none CTA source? Do you want more, Shakespearean Fan?
Though the roots of the Dorje Shugden controversy are more than 360 years old, the issue surfaced within the Tibetan exile community during the 1970s after Zemey Rinpoche published the Yellow Book, which included stories – passed by Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche – about members of the Gelugpa sect who practiced Gelug and Nyingma teachings together and were killed by Shugden. According to Mills: “in defence of the deity’s efficacy as a protector, [this book] named 23 government officials and high lamas that had been assassinated using the deity’s powers.”
Dreyfus explains, “The author of the Yellow Book was repeating the views already expressed by the two most important figures in the tradition of Shugden followers, Pabongkha and Trijang … The Yellow Book provided a number of cases that illustrate this point, emphasizing that the dire warnings were not empty threats but based on ‘facts.’”
The punative character of Shugden stressed by Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche is also mentioned by Mumford, according to whom Shugden is “extremely popular, but held in awe and feared among Tibetans because he is highly punitive.” To give an example, Mumford quotes the merchant Dawa Tshering. Tshering makes offerings to Shugden once a month but,
If I forget, then he’ll make me sick. But if I do not neglect him he will aid me wherever I go. When I travel I pray to him, “May sickness not come.” When I cross a bridge I ask, “May the bridge not fall.” If I do not serve Shugden he will get angry. He will kill my animals and I will lose my wealth and the members of my household will fight.
In 2008 Lobsang Yeshe (the self-proclaimed Kundeling Rinpoche), Mysore, India and the Dorjee Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society, New Delhi, India filed a lawsuit at the Delhi High Court against the Dalai Lama and Samdong Rinpoche as the elected prime minister of the Tibetan Parliament in Exile, Dharamsala, India in 2008. They accused the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) and the Fourteenth Dalai Lama of harassment and violence. In response to it the Delhi High Court dismissed the writ petition in April 5, 2010. Justice S. Muralidhar dismissed it on the grounds that the allegations of violence and harassment were ‘vague averments’ and that the raised issues ‘do not partake of any public law character and therefore are not justiciable in proceedings under Article 226 of the Constitution.’ Based on the ‘absence of any specific instances of any such attacks’ on Dorjee Shugden practitioners, the Court noted the counter affidavit submitted by the respondents, referring to ‘an understanding reached whereby it was left to the monks to decide whether they would want to be associated with the practices of Dorjee Shugden.’ Justice Muralidhar concluded that the ‘matters of religion and the differences among groups concerning propitiation of religion, cannot be adjudicated upon by a High Court in exercise of its writ jurisdiction.’
A fool who thinks he is a fool for that reason is a wise man. A fool who thinks he is wise is a fool indeed.
The moment you stated” I will not read a thing from shugden party unless … ” this one sided opinionated and discriminatory discussion was over. In a healthy debate and a discussion there are two important things an OPEN mind for communicating and listening. Buddha said ” you should respect each other, follow my teachings, refrain from disputes,you should not, like water and oil, repel each other but should, like milk and water mingle together. Study together, learn together, practice my teaching together. Do not waste your mind in idleness and quarreling. Enjoy the blossoms of enlightenment in their season and harvest the fruit of the right path”.
Buddha trained himself to avoid double-talk, he wished that all men know the joy of fellowship.
He trained himself to avoid abusing others, and then he wished that all might have the serene mind to follow by living in peace with others.
Since everything in this world is brought about by causes and conditions, there can be no fundamental distinctions among things. The apparent distinctions exist because of people’s absurd and discriminating thoughts. In the sky there is no distinction between east and west, people create the distinction out of their own minds and then believe them to be true.
You can go on with your shugden barrage and ONE WAY shugden advertisement but till now what you have stated is nothing new and is on different CTA websites and have been contradicted whether you agree or not. It’s a 20 year old issue and there are enough forums on it in the cyber world that have talked and are talking about it. I’m not sure what your true motive is when you regurgitate the same stuff again and again on this platform and try to drown people’s voice with your noise. I’ve seen that happen many times but I believe that the sound of Rangzen will not be drowned by any noise!! The common goal and unity of all Tibetans for freedom will not be broken by barriers and groupism and vile rumours and idle chatters. We will not be swayed nor distracted from our path as Rangzen is my birthright. Kudos to Lukar Jam. You are the first but definitely not the last.
Thank you White . You are the best. More Shugden,
You are the best
Ggghhhhhj
One thing for sure, I will not read the material that has zero credibility and respectively. The party that won’t hesitate to shake hands with enemy of the country, the party that is involved in murder, the party that is lead by people like Lama Gangchen and fake Geshe Kalsang Gyaltsen, the party that calls false Dalai Lama, has indeed zero credibility. I know nothing will dissolve into you when anything is come from me or CTA. You rather dig the sewage. I will never expect to find anything pleasant by digging sewage.
Now I want to check your credibility. You said “what you have stated is nothing new and is on different CTA websites”. Please show me the CTA websites that contains materials I have posted. For you anything that sides with CTA position is wrong and bad and you call yourself open minded? You dismiss the man (His Holiness the Dalai Lama) who has united people of Tibet better anybody else in the history of Tibet and you want to talk about importants of unity. How much more absurd can you get?
Do not pretend you know everything. Your post indicates other way. Show me any material that is coming from unbiased people that support Shugden party position.
My motive is clear to support His Holiness and CTA, people of Tibet and stand against who shack hands with enemy and stand against people who behave like Chinese.
QED.
I have a question for His Holiness the White.
We all respect CTA but your Holiness never miss to display that you hold CTA at a higher pedestal than others including JN. Now I have a question.
Head of CTA is Sikyong Lobsang Sangay. Minister for Religious Affairs is his excellency Kalon Pema Chhonjor. Did the two ever demonize Shugden followers like rabid dog like you are? Have to ever heard of the two talking at length about the evils of Shugden anywhere. Did you realize even when Sikyong was forced to talk about it to TCV students, how inconvenient he felt from his body language. When you listen to his narrative, do you ever think he believes in any of this crap. I came out convinced that he Is a smart man who refuses to join this mud fight.
The two are the smartest political leaders and for this reason people voted them into this important position. Majority of Tibetan public has no issue with their dignified silence. Do you think majority of Tibetan people are stupid and you are the only wise one? If you respect CTA so much then listen and follow the leaders of CTA. Walk the talk.
Who is parroting Shugden issue? Sikyong Lobsang Sangay? Religious Kalon Pema Chhonjor? Are they stupid? I don’t think so. Just follow the leader and stop creating problems for others.
White !
Shugden followers are Tibetans. Try to separate Shugden from Tibetan. They have rights to beleive in any objects or spirits. Hindus are worshiping in cow, rocks ( Shiva Linga ), rats, Monkey, snakes, rivers etc. These have nothing to do with the country. They have rights to have their freedom of religious rights and they are protected under their constitution.
We live in a scientific and tech. world today. Reasaoning, common sensing and researching is important.
Example, a doctor has diagnosed terminal illness of a patient and has one week to live. If you invite prominent followers of Shugden, like Phaphongka, Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Kalsang Gyatso etc to save his life. Will these Rinpoche bring some kind of cure to this patient ? Not at all. Same with non-practitioners, like, HH Dalai Lama, Karmapa, Sakya Trizin, Penor Rinpoche etc. These all our blind faith and superstition.
dalai lama is a failure leader of 21 century. if you all say anything but its ground reallity world knows that
@323 The story of 25 high lamas and officials apparently Geluk faithfuls were taken cared of by deity is myth spun by Lamas. None of them were medical doctors let alone forensic pathologist to determine the cause of the death.
If it is true then where were the deity when Red Guard smashed the Gaden monastery into dust during 1960-70. Not just Shugden but other deities as well. All them seem to frighten the gullible Tibetan into submission.
#Jampal Guretsang#
“Head of CTA is Sikyong Lobsang Sangay. Minister for Religious Affairs is his excellency Kalon Pema Chhonjor. Did the two ever demonize Shugden followers like rabid dog like you are? Have to ever heard of the two talking at length about the evils of Shugden anywhere. Did you realize even when Sikyong was forced to talk about it to TCV students, how inconvenient he felt from his body language. When you listen to his narrative, do you ever think he believes in any of this crap. I came out convinced that he Is a smart man who refuses to join this mud fight.”
Now please don’t exaggerate. As a man who was present on that occasion, I knew from the beginning that Sikyong Lobsang Sangay don’t know much about Shugden and the history behind it, just like any other ordinary Tibetans, and that’s why he felt little bit inconvenient talking about it. You bunch of Shugdenpas are good at twisting each and every events to favor your own needs.
We’re not fools. The fact is that the majority of the Tibetans are with H.H. the Dalai Lama, and supported him wholeheartedly. And you can’t change that even if you spend your entire life time on that.
#Lobsang#
“dalai lama is a failure leader of 21 century. if you all say anything but its ground reallity world knows that”
The ground reality is that the people of the world admire, love and respect H.H. the Dalai Lama, and seek guidance from him wherever he goes. Even rich & famous from Hollywood, Bollywood, Cricketers, politicians, religious leaders came to seek his blessing and guidance.
Now tell me, what your Lama Kalsang has done so far. The reality is bit sour to taste when it smells in your own backyard.
331 is posted by Lowlife Shakespearean Fan. NG from China will answer all his question because they are made from same material for different purpose.
333
Which world are you talking about? May be you are talking about the world where devil dewels, world of Pergamum.
At one time Shakyamuni Buddha was staying in the town of Kausambi. In this town there was one who resented Him and who bribed wicked men to circulate false stories about Him. Under the circumstances it was difficult for his disciples to get sufficient food from their begging and there was much abuse in that town. Ananda said to Shakyamuni, ” We had better not stay in a town like this. There are other and better towns to go to. We had better leave this town.
The Blessed one replied: “Suppose the next town is like this, What shall we do then?”
“Then we move to another”.
The Blessed One said: “No, Ananda, there will be no end in that way. We had better remain here and bear the abuse patiently until it ceases, and then we move to another place”.
Appo deepa Bhava! Rangzen all the way!!
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CTA Websites or Sites against Shugden:CTA Websites or Sites against Shugden:
http://tibet.net/dolgyal-shugden/ CTA
http://dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden CTA
http://dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/ganden-tripa/the-shugden-affair-i – GEORGE DREYFUS
http://dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/ganden-tripa/cult-dogyal-shugden Robert Thurman
http://dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/historical-references-fifth-dalai-lama CTA
http://shugdeninfo.com/ CTA
http://www.tibetonline.tv/category/truth-about-dolgyal – CTA mass videos and issues
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2015/09/15/ EX NKT
NOW WEBSITES FOR Shugden and contradictions:
looks like websites don’t get uploaded all at once.
Follow Sikyong Lobsang Sangay and Religious Kalon Pema Chhonjor.
If it is CTA ‘s priority, then they won’t lag behind. There is a reason for their dignified silence. The fact that this question shut White’s big mouth is a proof that his quoting CTA as the final authority is just a ruse.
Next time, when White crows about the ills of Shugden, just remember who is wiser: Sikyong Lobsang Sangay , Kalon Pema Chhonjor or person who hides behind a pseudonym and fires at others. His best place is in the trash can. I am happy that I finally nailed this crooked. Lobsang Sangay is the man. History will remember him for this humanity.
Please post my comment a day ago for general information. My comments can be historically authenticated and intellectual unlike those fight for God or ghost. This blog seems worse than great firewall of China, equally afraid of fact presented to ignorant youths!
NG
Samten ( or mental) :
Please stop insulting Sikyong Lobsang Sangay. When it comes to personal benefits, there is no smarter guy in 6 million Tibetans than Lobsang Sangay. If it is to his personal benefits to learn Swahili, he will learn Swahili and speak it. When such a smart guy, after spending four years at the helms to CTA still refuses to dwell on Shugden issue and talk about it, in itself a message to larger Tibetan public: folks move on!
Sikyong Lobsang Sangay never misses to thrust himself into any discussion: from offering congratulatory message to claim other’s achievement as result of his efforts and vision and, in offering Condolences to even someone worth forgetting in few days; and when such a person refuses to even utter a word of ills of Dogyal/Shugden, you think he is not speaking because he doesn’t know the issue?
Come on, who are you trying to insult ?
Sikyong Lobsang Sangay and Kalon Pema Chhonjor are the two smartest guys. Their message: end this Shugden bashing now. People like my cousin White and yourself are doing this not in the interest of CTA. Yes, I agree with two of you on one issue: in respecting CTA.
Going against the direction of Sikyong Lobsang Sangay, supreme head of CTA is not respecting CTA. Follow the leader, folks. Don’t fool the people.
I agree with Lobsang, HH Dalai Lama is a good failure on Tibet. Western world admire him because they live in a materialistic life and they don’t see material side of HH Dalai Lama. But if see Eastern side of the Buddhist world, they don’t beleive HH Dalai Lama is a good leader for Tibet. Recent CBS 60 minute interviw with Aung Su Kyi in Burma unfolded that HH Dalai Lama is a politian and they do not honour him a good leader at all.
343 and 344 are posted by Shakespearean Fan. His own identity is not good enough so does things that only lowlife people could do.
? I . Am. Sorry. I am going to withdraw all my false accusation. From today onwards, I will follow the path of Sikyong who is the democratically elected supreme leader of CTA. Prostration. Sorry.
345: I am not able to comprehend the political lining of all your post except that you are trying to project your self as avowed atheist. I categorize the posters on this blog as under:
1. Suspected Chinese agent(s)
2. Occasional inji shugden followers or sympathizers.
3. Lobsang Sangay People: ( may be from OFT )
4. True democracy and Rangzen advocates:
5. Fundamentalist and Fanatics with one issue: war against Shugden and Rangzen advocate
The most ferocious is the last one and from the luxury of time of this poster, anyone can discern that he is a special envoy for JN to fire fight. JN should remember that it is people like him who lobbied RFA to ban him from media appearances. It is the same people who are showing no respect to democratically elected Sikyong.
Now the big question is : Who is behind this guy and why he is given this assignment ? It is helping their cause or driving more people to abhor the narrow mindedness of their masters?
We Tibetans have disagreement about Shugden issue. His Holiness and his followers expressed their view and Shugden advocates expressed their own view and there are almost irreconcilable differences. This is a religious issue and we could have moved on just like many other different faiths coexist in this world. But Shugden followers have been keep nagging aggressively about our view towards Shugden. Shugden followers want us to change our view towards Shugden. We have a right what we want to believe as much as they have a right what they want to believe. Now who is interfering religious freedom? We don’t go to Shugden people’s home and Shugden teacher or in front of Shugden party to protest against their faith. Our leaders, our government and vast majority of our people believe worshiping Shugden is wrong. Just like Christians believe Islam is wrong and vice versa. This has been a norm in every civilization. If anybody has problem with this, than it is their problem.
Moreover, politically we Tibetan should not have differences whether you believe in Umai Lam or Rangzen . We are all victim of Chinese aggression. We have a common enemy. Do Shugden people recognized that? We have seen continues aggressive protest from Shugden people against Dalai Lama wherever he travels. Have you seen them even once protesting against China? Any sensible human being would have understood that Shugden issue has nothing to do with freedom of religion.
In terms of human rights violation, there are so many places Shugden followers can ask for help. Of course they did go to few places and their accusations are dismissed. At any rate, China has the worst human rights record in the world but Shugden people did not hesitate to shake hands with China. What does this say?
བོད་བོད་ལ་སྐྱིད། རྒྱ་རྒྱ་ལ་སྐྱིད་ཞེས་པའི་གནའ་གཏམ་དེ་བོད་མི་ཚོའི་མ་བརྗེད་པ་བྱེད་དགོས།
I am returning after my South African trip. It is all China everywhere and here , for us Shugden is the life and death issue. I give up. I don’t think Dogyal group mushroomed overnight to protest against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. It is a self-created. Do we have to challenge this? Yes. But the way to do this the one the crazy poster does? I don’t think so.
BTW, during my absence, I realized I become his convenient target in his crazy musing. I don’t mind at all. May be, it all turned into prayers. I had an inspiring and uplifting trip. It confirmed my long held core belief that education is the most important thing in life. Narrow minded, radical elements will only retard our developments.
#Wh1te#
Since you and others are obsessed in your own thoughts, I will tell you more about it.
For Sikyong Lobsang Sangay, it is not a cup of tea talking about Shugden. He has got his own reservation on certain things as his knowledge is limited. And leave aside your quote for a while. “Their message: end this Shugden bashing now.” What a ridiculous and unformed statement.
There are times when Sikyong Lobsang Sangay failed to answer some questions by the students on Shugden and the controversy surrounding it. And ultimately Samdhong Rinpoche was requested to do the necessary clarification. And one fact is that Sikyong don’t read and study Tibetan scriptures, where many of the information are available as his Tibetan language is not good.
So in the end due to lack of knowledge on this evil spirit, he has had to act smart as you said and remain silent.
348 is posted by Shakespearean Fan.
JN should do something if he want to keep his blog some sort of respectability. JN totally ignored my request to delate this account which is opened by Shakespearean Fan to confuse people with my name “White”.
I don’t want to be drawn to level where Shakepearean Fan belong.
Shakespearean Fan want to defend Shugden followers but attack Dalai Lama and CTA. Way to go man.
Four points from Shugden party demand us to accept.
1. That both individuals and communities should completely stop all discrimination against the practice of Shugden and its practitioners
2. That they should maintain harmonious relationships with Shugden practitioners
3. That they should never try to harm Shugden practitioners either directly or indirectly
4. That they should solve this present problem by practically applying the above three points
Lets see how these points stand:
Point one: they are asking us to change what we believe about Shugden.
Point two:they are asking us to embrace them as if there is nothing wrong worshiping Shugden.
Point three: they are asking us not to oppose Shugden worship while they can promote Shugden worship as if it is a core teaching of Lama Tsongkapa and Trijang Rinpoche.
Point four: if we accept these three points we can be their friends.
“We Tibetans have disagreement about Shugden issue. His Holiness and his followers expressed their view and Shugden advocates expressed their own view and there are almost IRRECONCILIABLE differences”….Shugden followers want us to change our view towards Shugden.”? that’s not their point.
These are the 4 points that I took out of some of the Shugden website:
To allow anyone who wishes to practice Dorje Shugden the freedom to do so
To stop completely the discrimination against Shugden practitioners
To allow all Shugden monks and nuns who have been expelled to return to their monasteries and nunneries, and to receive the same material and spiritual rights as non-Shugden practitioners
To write to Tibetan communities throughout the world telling them that they should apply practically the above three points.
Are these demands too hard/ IRRECONCILIABLE/complicated for any discussion or dialogue?
The more you hurl accusations on people and shit on people the more they will hurl back the same kind of accusations? This defeats the point for resolution? Now, if there are disagreements on these four points based on whatever reasons, and then they should be negotiated, and discussed through dialogue so that the world can see that the Constitution of our CTA is democratic and equal to everyone.
Shaking hands with China, Now this accusation has seen change through the ongoing Chushi Gangdruk issues, the ongoing Karmapa issues, Gungthang Tsultrim issues? OUR CTA wants to SHAKE hands with China? China doesn’t want to shake our hand because they don’t trust us. I am happy they don’t want to shake our hands even after we pretty much sold our country (the change of UMAY lam to this new thing of adopting Chinese Constitution completely). This tells me that China is afraid and they know that Tibet was free, and will be free in the future because there are many countless Andrutsang Gonpo Tashi’s, and Lukar Jam’s in the making and the fighting spirit of Free Tibetans will not die and be lost in all this confusion. Let’s get rid of the dirt that covers our goals and stop abusing ourselves.
Once there was a rich widow who had a reputation for kindness, modest and courtesy. She had a housemaid who was wise and diligent. One day the maid thought: “My mistress has a very good reputation; I wonder whether she is good by nature, or is good because of her surroundings. I will try her and find out.” The following morning the maid did not appear before her mistress until near noon. The mistress was vexed and scolded her impatiently. The maid replied: “If I am lazy for only a day or two, you ought not to become impatient.” Then the mistress became angry. The next day the maid got up late again. This made the mistress very angry and she struck the maid with a stick. This became widely known and the rich widow lost her good reputation. When our surroundings are satisfactory, we are kind, modest and quiet, but it is questionable if we will behave likewise when conditions change and become unsatisfactory. Freedom
“To allow anyone who wishes to practice Dorje Shugden the freedom to do so”
They already have complete freedom to worship whatever they want. We don’t want to worship with them? Can we have that freedom?
“To allow all Shugden monks and nuns who have been expelled to return to their monasteries and nunneries, and to receive the same material and spiritual rights as non-Shugden practitioners”.
Anyone who want to be a members of the any organization anywhere in the world must follow the rules and regulations of the organization. Don’t we? Authority of organizations and vast majority of the members of organization believe worshiping Shugden is wrong so it should not be part of the organization.
You rather believe in Lukar Jam than Dalai Lama. What can I say?
@White 355: Why Tibetans are still behaving like European in 19th century lost in god, demigod and spirit and elf and other worldly beings while least bothered about our home 2.5 million sq KM of real estate called Tibet.
am returning after my South African trip. It is all China everywhere and here , for us Shugden is the life and death issue. I give up. I don’t think Dogyal group mushroomed overnight to protest against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. It is a self-created. Do we have to challenge this? Yes. But the way to do this the one the crazy poster does? I don’t think so.
BTW, during my absence, I realized I become his convenient target in his crazy musing. I don’t mind at all. May be, it all turned into prayers. I had an inspiring and uplifting trip. It confirmed my long held core belief that education is the most important thing in life. Narrow minded, radical elements will only retard our developments.
356
You are good. At least you think we belong to modern civilization. China thinks we have mentally of medieval period.
362
Did you enjoy using my credit card for your trip? Shugden issue started the day it came into existence. The issue has been on and off throughout its history. Nobody created the issue but Shugden itself and its followers.
I do believe in knowledge and skills. I do not necessarily believe in book smart. I do not believe in importance of knowing what is written in the book or knowing what other people know already. We have many book smart people in our society with degrees and certificates and whatever but when we need to do something nobody is there. That’s why man like Lukar Jam is considered hero. Book smart people lack critical thinking skills,
Something is false or true because it’s written in the book. That is not an education. Degrees does not equal knowledge. If you trade Taa-Dang Bungoo (horse and donkey), that is not a critical thinking. If you trade Dalai Lama for Lukar Jam, that is not a critical thinking.
@362 Shugden controversy in exile began with Trijang’s propaganda of fear that spread among Geluk monks and nuns through the “yellow book”. Otherwise, Tibetans won’t be divided in exiles over the spirit as is now.
I have a question for His Holiness the White.
We all respect CTA but you never miss to display that you hold CTA at a higher pedestal than others including JN. Now I have a question.
Head of CTA is Sikyong Lobsang Sangay. Minister for Religious Affairs is his excellency Kalon Pema Chhonjor. Did the two ever demonize Shugden followers like rabid dog like you are? Have to ever heard of the two talking at length about the evils of Shugden anywhere. Did you realize even when Sikyong was forced to talk about it to TCV students, how inconvenient he felt from his body language. When you listen to his narrative, do you ever think he believes in any of this crap. I came out convinced that he Is a smart man who refuses to join this mud fight.
The two are the smartest political leaders and for this reason people voted them into this important position. Majority of Tibetan public has no issue with their dignified silence. Do you think majority of Tibetan people are stupid and you are the only wise one? If you respect CTA so much then listen and follow the leaders of CTA. Walk the talk.
Who is parroting Shugden issue? Sikyong Lobsang Sangay? Religious Kalon Pema Chhonjor? Are they stupid? I don’t think so. Just follow the leader and stop creating problems for others.
White, my cousin born in sin:
Please stop insulting Sikyong Lobsang Sangay. When it comes to personal benefits, there is no smarter guy in 6 million Tibetans than Lobsang Sangay. If it is to his personal benefits to learn Swahili, he will learn Swahili and speak it. When such a smart guy, after spending four years at the helms to CTA still refuses to dwell on Shugden issue and talk about it, in itself a message to larger Tibetan public: folks move on!
Sikyong Lobsang Sangay never misses to thrust himself into any discussion: from offering congratulatory message to claim other’s achievement as result of his efforts and vision and, in offering Condolences to even someone worth forgetting in few days; and when such a person refuses to even utter a word of ills of Dogyal/Shugden, you think he is not speaking because he doesn’t know the issue?
Come on, who are you trying to insult ?
Sikyong Lobsang Sangay and Kalon Pema Chhonjor are the two smartest guys. Their message: end this Shugden bashing now. People like my cousin White and yourself are doing this not in the interest of CTA. Yes, I agree with two of you on one issue: in respecting CTA.
Going against the direction of Sikyong Lobsang Sangay, supreme head of CTA is not respecting CTA. Follow the leader, folks. Don’t fool the people.
What do expect when the man who came in as Sikyong is a Trojan horse?