Kalon Tripa Dr. Lobsang Sangay needs to explain the statement he made on video to stol.it, the South Tyrol Online journal on March 02. 2012. Replying to a question “What is it like being a prime minster without a country?. Dr. Lobsang Sangay answered clearly and deliberately ” Well… I can’t say for sure because, Tibetans, we never had a country.” Is Dr. Lobsang Sangay attempting to surpass the record for bizarre utterances established by our previous Kalon Tripa Professor Samdong Rimpoche, who declared on March 13, 2009 that the “Tibet Issue is the Internal Affair of the People’s Republic of China?” What on earth is going on here?
213 Replies to ““Tibetans Never Had a Country” Dr. Lobsang Sangay”
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apalling. i just watched his interview in Autralian s ABC channel, and his words to describe the situation are way too soft in my opinion.
I voted for Dr.Lobsang Sangay with the hope that he would inspire our youths.
I am at a loss for words with his comments ‘Tibetans,we never had a country”.His comments have deeply saddened me and it pains me that the damage caused is far reaching.
‘Dangerous imbecile’ would be better suited to describe Dr.Lobsang Sangay”
before we all jump to conclusions, please step back and think….maybe our kalon tripa was talking about tibetans born in exile…those of us who never had a country……….i am surprised jamyang la, would jump to such wild assumptions before having lobsang sangye clarify his statement…..
We cant take this guy serioulsy. either that or the excuse that his english is limited. I understand that like me he maybe not thinking in english but come on he went to harvard and doesnt he have an advisor too?
Either he is trying to fk me up or this is a case of poorly crafted explanation or semantics.
Jamyang,
As a Tibetan who was born and raised inside Tibet, sometimes I am disgusted by some of you who had never stepped a feet in Tibetan soil, but still talking something big. are you trying to approve? What’s your point now? When HHDL was in power, you had something to say about him and when Tripa Professor Samdong Rimpoch was the prime minister, you also had say something about him.
You guys (apart from Tashi) are too hard on him. With even a modicum of goodwill, you would eventually figure out that he was first-off talking about Tibetans in exile like himself for a few minutes before he switches gears a bit and says something about how it is “even worse” for Tibetans inside Tibet. Could he have been more clear in what he intended to say? Yes. Of course. So what… Same goes for you guys. If you would like to be heard with goodwill try hearing with goodwill.
ugen and don, isnt it better that he learn from his mistakes?Are you guys going to take the responsibility if he blunders like this again? He is a politician and got into it knowing fully well what it entails. you and i may not be able to take this kind of heat but dont worry from what i’ve seen of him all through the campaign, he is willing to learn and he has a thick skin which is good.
Oh..have I heard it righ? The blunter like this cannot be repaired!
Thank you Jamyang Norbu la for being so vigilant.We need that kind of observant educated people around our politicians; so we can,not watch them,but watch out for them for our common good.
You are absolutely right that,the prime minster did say,Tibetans,we never had a country and so on.After listening to the whole conversation, one can almost be certain that he misspoke somethings here.I think,#3,Tashi la and I seem to be more or less on the same page.I think Dr. L. Sangay meant of the ones born outside of Tibet.But he also created a small space for doubts by not really hitting on the key word ‘country;’and instead chose to stay with phrase …missing home etc.
But,we have all heard our prime minister time and again,and we know for sure that for him Tibet is his country.That does not mean we let him get away with basic errors when on Tibet;though he is a human being,he is not an ordinary human being.He is an extra ordinary human being with extra ordinary responsibility.We can always debate to prove him one way or the other.But with positive thoughts.So in the future he is more careful at choosing correct words and phrases.But it would be interesting what the others out there think about this,and what Dr. Sangay has to offer in form of clarification,for he certainly needs to respond for this.I do not think he should let it die away a natural death.Because that way we will never learn better.
By the way Dr. Lobsag Sangay-la’s speeches are impressive,and even more impressive is his hard work and willingness to learn to gain new experiences.We can appreciate him for that.I hope.On the whole,thus far I think he’s done a great job.I wish our prime minister all the luck there is for the future of Tibet and the Tibetans.BODH RANGZEN !!!WE ARE WITH OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS ALL OVER THE WORLD,SPECIALLY THE ONES IN tIBET.bODH gYALLOOO !!!!!
Those of you who are vociferously rising to his defense remember this is no ordinary Tibetan person but the PRIME MINISTER of Tibet. If he is confusing even Tibetans with his statements like this, what do you think it is doing to Other people who have no clue whatsoever about Tibet’s situation? It is extremely important, especially at this juncture, with the self-immolations going on in Tibet (most of whom are not dying for a non-existant country) to be very clear about what one says and means. He is still in his election mode, saying whatever he wants with no consequences because he knows Tibetans will be blinded by his Harvard degree – even apparently otherwise smart people. But this kind of utterance shouldn’t be a big surprise for people who have been closely watching him and going over his history; his thesis, his articles and the general campaign rhethorics. I don’t expect his behavior to change anytime soon. Why should he? He got elected inspite of total lack of experience and uttering nonsense throughout the campaign. If you elected him despite all these glaring holes, you deserve him. Sorry.
The 3 on hunger strike in NY should be 30,multiplying by 10 every month untill the appeals are met by UN.
Tsering Dorjee la,for the most part,I liked what you had to say,except,that you seem to appear like you are there to out right attack our prime minister.Whether, you voted or not voted for him is hardly any one’s concern any more,because for now he is our prime minister for all Tibetans.If we can not or do not have that understanding,how can we respect him as the head of the Kashak.If we can not respect Kashak by refusing to respect the man who fought an election and won,then I do not have much further to go with you in this conversation.
I do understand Jamyang Norbu la’s concern.But in all fairness,after listening to the full interview,it was not too difficult to understand and realize,that it was not meant to be understood that way at all.You do get that feeling that he had all who were born outside of Tibet without the country,I say it again; without the
country at the back of his mind.For heavens sakes it’s barely seven months for a young leader who has come from a commoner’s back ground doing this well
within a short period of time is a praise worthy in my book.His Holiness was blinking with joy when He presented a well educated commoner to the highest post with biggest responsibility to fill His Holiness’ shoes.Criticize him all you want,but in a brotherly,more friendly, and constructively.
I did vote for him; and I have not a shred of regrets.The hardest thing was taking and making a decision between the two very deserving candidates.That to me was a thing to be proud of.Either one would have been terrific Kalon Tripa.
Let us all support our current Kalon Tripa every which way for him to succeed in what we sent him to D’sala to do and also criticize where ever he deserves.I think he is okay with that.
I feel some of you are worse the CCP officials, twisted words and lies. what are you trying to approve? Did he really mean to say that ” Tibetans, we never had a country.”?
My 5 year old son knows that we have a country named Tibet.
@Ugen – I have never been to Tibet too but my parents were from Tibet. It was their country as much as it is yours, mine and our children’s. My spiritual leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama is from a country called Tibet. And 26 Tibetans have died for our country called Tibet and wanting the Dalai Lama to return back to our country called Tibet. 3 Tibetans are starving for death for Tibet. HOW DARE CAN ANYONE SAY WE NEVER HAD A COUNTRY? So what does that mean for His Holiness the Dalai Lama, all the sacrifices made in Tibet, our parents hope and our children’s future and for you and me??????
Ugen la,I think,the conversation on this page is pretty decent one.Non of us are worse than ccp for sure.That will look like we are thinking well of the CCPs.Let us not do that.Neither you, nor I think highly of CCps at any given time. you can take it from me.Defend your stand with clear mind by not being too partial to any one side for we are all Tibetans.Let us pretend to be high thinkers with purpose in life,temper and anger well tamed under control.
Change and development come from opposition but I also appreciating, what Tashi la said.
I am sure JM la knows very well that Kalon Tripa did not mean to say that Tibet was not a country. But still you guys are trying to twist his words. what are you trying to approve? We are tired of all this petty politics.
Another such blunder was made by the PM, this time in Tibetan when he spoke in NY. The gist of this I have wrote in a note on FB. Check out
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150552110087237
Dear Ugen la,
You could be right. Kalon Tripa might not have meant to say that “we Tibetans never had a country.” But then why did he say it!!!!! This time he said it in a small place in Northern Italy that no one is paying much attention to. Next time if he says it at an important press conference in Washington DC, or worse to Chinese leaders in a future negotiation (that we all know the Kalon Tripa really wants) What then?
If you care about Tibet or care about the Kalon Tripa you must make sure he never makes such a ridiculous statement again. And you can only do that by pointing it out publicly and making the Kalon Tripa realize that Tibetans are paying attention to everything he says and that they will hold him to task if he doesn’t do his job. Tough love is the best love.
Activism or politician, the later seems to be the case here with dirty political nitpicking.
There is no room for now or never to an act to divert the energy / attention of the mass from the on going efforts and sacrifices of those in Tibet.
Lets sharpen our methods.
Beside bashing Kalon Tripa, what else you guys can do for Tibet? this is a simple question. Inside Tibet, Tibetans are burning themselves to death, at least Kalon Tripa was brave enough to say publicly t”the occupation was a problem”and “china invaded Tibet” etc it was enough for me.
some of you seems impossible to move beyond petty exile politics. it is really sad.
JAMYANG NORBU La,
It does not matter what he says in private or even in public . It is not going to change anything about the china’s mind. If you care so much about his public statements, on many occasions, he said ‘the occupation” and “invasion’ were the problems. What are you going to say about that?
come on!
I don’t understand why Lobsang Sangge was saying that we never had a country. he also like mention to much about his career Harvard …lalala..
I really like your post Jamyang Norbu, We inside Tibet likes people like you.
Kalon Tripa :
Unfortunately I was born in exile like you and yet there is no doubt that ‘Tibet’ was a country and is still a country that is occupied by force today,to think any differently as a Tibetan is not possible.
We still have a country.
Ugen:
Your arguments are a trifle too thin to put it mildly and yet you have managed to convince yourself otherwise.
So, what is the use of Harvard education if you can’t articulate what you mean. If LS meant, we Tibetans in exile never had a country, he should have said that! Even this prompt from me is incorrect, we (in exile) DID have a country, we ran away from it!
NOT IMPRESSED AT ALL!
Jamyang Norbu la,
Here is full transcription of the question and answer. So Jamyang la and every one read the complete answer and make a fair interpretation.
Question: What is it like being a Prime Minister without a country?
Kalon Tripa Dr. Lobasang Sangay’s Answer: “Well uhm, I can’t say for sure because uhh Tibetans, we never had a country, so till you experience what it is to be like uh to have a country then you can say what it is like to be without a country. Having said that I do feel uh that uh someone without your own homeland, it’s like someone without uh air to breathe. When you, when you have a country, when you breathe air, you don’t feel the importance or you don’t feel the need of it because it’s so natural. You breathe air in and out, but those who don’t, it’s very suffocating, because on daily bases from morning till you sleep at night you have to always read about, know about, deal about issues… not having a country, not having freedom and worse sufferings of Tibetans inside Tibet. So even at night you dream about it. So it’s very suffocating so I don’t know what it is to be uh to be a leader of a country but I know what it’s to be a leader of uhh people without one’s homeland. It is suffocating. It is difficult. That’s why it’s called struggle. We are in freedom struggle. The right word is struggle. It is a struggle. But one has to embrace struggle, make it your own and move forward towards success. That is the goal”.
Puron Dorjee la, your transcription does confirm what we all heard in the video, that we Tibetans never had a country. The rest of it is not very articulate either for a Harvard lawyer.
May our brave sisters and brothers who lit up their bodies to show us the way, be reborn very soon as our brothers and sisters again.
First of all, during the interview, what our PM seems to be, is, he need a can of redbull. His eyes are shutting down, his ESL is distorted and words are falling here and there like a bird shit. Nothing Harvard was there, except CST Darjeeling seems to be talking.
I also think JNorbu la should stop acting like fox news. If you listen to the full statement, it is very clear that LS doesn’t mean literally the way JN la had portrayed him. He didn’t say “we Tibetans, never, “EVER” had a country”, which JN la seems to be trying to depict him. Remember “Obama of china”? It turned out to be very cheap shot. So does this one too.
Whether it was ‘Obama of China’ or ‘ Tibetans never had a country so I don’t know how it feels to be without a country but I do feel how it is to be without a homeland’ or his defiance of Woser la’s reminder (twice) that Tapey be included in the list of self immolaters, there’s a consistent portrayal of Lobsang Sangay’s stand and his immorality in all this, that Tibet’s issue is not a issue of nationhood but human rights, and his readiness to appease China even at the cost betraying his own people. All of these will have far reaching consequence on our struggle to survive as a people and nation, including adding further burden on our children and grand children to defend Tibetan nationhood from China’s claim as Tibet being its part because of Kalon Tripa Lobsang Sangay’s utterances. Equally worse LS has not been into office one year yet!!! I knew this guy would be train wreck
Gang-Thuk la, completely agree with your first paragraph. Come on! he needs charisma/eloquence coaching, at least when he talks to TV channels.
He embodies the revolt and struggle, and he has seemed more appeasing than echoeing what s happening and the drama. the energy must be contagious and touch people! At least in the energy and wordings of his interviews.
Tough love is better than collecting bad results at the end, agree too Jamyangla
Tough love can be really tough to take! Not so enjoyable, really.
Do “Tibetans have a country” of their own? Another question of similar nature would be: does Tibet exist as an independent nation state on the world map? And for that matter is Tibet qualified to have a seat in the UNO or in any of its branch?
It seems that according to international law the answer to all those questions would be “No”. Perhaps there is no need to explain why is it so, for the subject matter is plain enough and self-explanatory.
The Kalon Tripa seems to have a good reason behind his statement, as his statements must make sense legally for two reasons: one, he heads an organisation that is fighting to regain Tibet’s lost sovereignty; two, he is a trained lawyer (most probably in international law) by profession.
As such, he has made the right statement. It is a statement that goes down well with the basic logic of the debate that involves the Question of Tibet.
There is no doubt that he was well aware of what he was saying, and of course he must, as it is his JOB. It is clear enough by common sense, as what happens when one fails to do the JOB well: FIRE!
I agree fully with “Tibet for Tibetans” comment. Katri Lobsang Sangay la did chose to be our leader and is therefor an extraordinary Tibetan who’s voice is heard as the voice of the Tibetan people. I feel that it is right what he “wanted to say” but his way to say it is more then irresponsible. The people who elected him supported him because their hope did lay in his great education in English, his youthful courage to dare clear stands … He can’t afford to speak like an university student .. He is the prime minister of the Tibetans and has to chose his words as much as possible to not be misunderstood. But I wonder also why he does not get trained in such … Leaders speeches most of the time are written and discussed before with the advisors and the press speakers. Who’s his advising team? It is OK to grow step by step in this duty but it is not OK in the charge of this position to repeat mistakes … I just feel we should have a possibility to discuss such with him directly before going public. We want to support him to be a good leader and not to make him fall. If he falls, we all will have difficulties to hold balance. Tseten
Definitely a slip up but in other societies this would lead to a politician standing down. Of course this is not going to happen in this case coz Tibetans in exile don´t even have a government to step down from ! Fact is that LS´s English is simply not good enough for either the world stage or low key visits like in this case. Let´s hope that he is learning from the places he visits. Both South Tyrol and Ireland would not exist today if the people had settled with their invaders at an early stage. Bombs and guns got them what they have today ! So if this is not an option for Tibetans then there is nothing to gain by visiting these places !
Lobsang Sangay should speak Tibetan and have someone translate. Then there would be no room for misunderstandings, blunders or any hidden appeasing agendas !
As things stand at the moment I personally don´t trust this man at all. I find him weak in debate and even weaker when it comes to talking straight about Tibet…especially the self immolations.
I also ask myself what kind of standards Harvard has set for their students ????? How is it possible with such poor language skills to attain a degree there ?
And the story of ” my parents had to sell a cow to finance my education !”…I can´t hear that anymore. The election campaign is long over and it´s time for this spokesman of Tibetans in exile to get to work and make a decision. Is he working for Tibetans in exile to improve their status and future or is he working for Tibetans in Tibet ???
Time to get really honest on what he wants and how he is going to achieve it!
Joe la has a good point “Lobsang Sangay should speak Tibetan and have someone translate”.
I completely agree with this statement.
Not because of ones lack of or better knowledge or expertise on different languages but the message it carries,the respect & significance that we as a Tibetan have on our language.
I agree with Joe, we need strategies and ideas how to fight back , not all these Kalon Tripa bashings. At least, Kalon Tripa is there.
Jamyang Norbu la, what should we do now? beside your usual slogan about rangzen, (sounds similar to the mantra of Lei Feng)
“Free Tibet” is a slogan ! Rangzen is a birthright and that is what Tibetans in Tibet are calling out for ! To attack Jamyang Norbu la and use this word as if it were a weapon is to disrespect Tibetans in Tibet ! RANGZEN is not a dirty word or a word that should be used lightly to provoke someone or something.
Even I as a non Tibetan have understood that !
Joe, “Both South Tyrol and Ireland would not exist today if the people had settled with their invaders at an early stage. Bombs and guns got them what they have today ! So if this is not an option for Tibetans then there is nothing to gain by visiting these places !”
do you believe it is a viable option?
May be this was a slip. He probably meant the Tibetans in exile. But as Prime Minister, he should be careful. I agree with Joe, he needs to brush up on his English or stop using the language in public gatherings.
Yesterday I spent two full hours of my valuable evening time to transcript Kalon Tripa Dr Lobsang Sangay la’s complete answer (see post # 27). Mr Jamyang Norbu la comprehension of this complex answer was completely wrong or deliberately misconstrue to smear his one time close friend Kalon Tripa Dr Lobsang Sangay la.
Jamyang la has precedents of trying to fit elephant into mouse hole, so I’m not surprised at all for this time too. To all my Tibetan and non Tibetan friends please do not spend any more seconds of your time on this matter.
Puron Dorjee la (#27)
“Well uhm, I can’t say for sure because uhh Tibetans, we never had a country, so till you experience what it is to be like uh to have a country then you can say what it is like to be without a country.”
What would be a fair interpretation, according to you? This is a serious matter. Providing a transcript alone will not work. Everybody heard him speak. This is disrespectful on your part to somehow indicate that we did not hear the rest of his answer to that question, especially when you did not offer us the (your)fair interpretation. It is amply clear Dr. Sangay’s interview created a huge confusion. Therefore, I encourage you to share with the readers the (your) fair interpretation.
I was looking at the first sentence of the transcript. However, I am overlooking the part where he said, “…we never had a country” because this quote was beaten to death already for good.
I am specifically looking at the part where he said, “…so till you experience what it is to be like uh to have a country…” Unless he or the CTA is fighting for complete independence, this part of his statement does not make any sense. It is inconsistent with the CTA’s policy. If we were to strictly follow the CTA’s policy, we will never ever get to experience what it is like to have our own country and what it is like to be a leader of an independent Tibet.
Therefore, it is not only a lack of competency in language, but also a lack of general mental ability (intelligence) on his part not to see those things clear enough in his head. If we have a final product in the form of Dr. Sangay who spent 16 years at Harvard, every Tibetan should think twice before applying to any graduate programs at Harvard.
I would have answered that question something along these lines. “It is a difficult question for me to answer for two prominent reasons. First, I was born and raised in India. By that logic, I have never been a part of an independent Tibet. Second, we are not seeking independence. The CTA policy is very clear on this.
Therefore, I will never be able to make any meaningful comment on what it is like to be a Prime Minister without a country, especially when I have not been and never will be a part of an independent Tibet.
Bombs and guns ??? Too late for that I am afraid as Tibetans are vastly outnumbered ! That would have been an option from the start and actually was until the West dropped the freedom fighters and sacrificed Tibet. Something that has been too easily forgotten by Tibetans in exile that constantly call out for support. Help is not on it´s way so why ask for it ?I personally will support the decisions Tibetans inside Tibet make ! That is why I support Rangzen !
Puron Dorjee la (#41)
It doesn’t surprise me that it took TWO FULL HOURS for you to transcribe 230 words of Dr. Sangay’s interview. You are as competent as Dr. Sangay.
Rangzen is not a dirty word , it is a scared word but it becomes a cheap word when it has no meaning . specially, when someone uses it for his or her petty politics.
Puron Dorjee la (#27)
“Well uhm, I can’t say for sure because uhh Tibetans, we never had a country, so till you experience what it is to be like uh to have a country then you can say what it is like to be without a country.”
What would be a fair interpretation, according to you? This is a serious matter. Providing a transcript alone will not work. Everybody heard him speak. This is disrespectful on your part to somehow indicate that we did not hear the rest of his answer to that question, especially when you did not offer us the fair interpretation. It is amply clear Dr. Sangay’s interview created a huge confusion. Therefore, I encourage you to share with the readers the (your) fair interpretation.
I was looking at the first sentence of the transcript. However, I am overlooking the part where he said, “…we never had a country” because this quote was beaten to death already for good.
I am specifically looking at the part where he said, “…so till you experience what it is to be like uh to have a country…” Unless he or the CTA is fighting for complete independence, this part of his statement does not make any sense. It is inconsistent with the CTA’s policy. If we were to strictly follow the CTA’s policy, we will never ever get to experience what it is like to have our own country and what it is like to be a leader of an independent Tibet.
Therefore, it is not only a lack of competency in language, but also a lack of general mental ability (intelligence) on his part not to see those things clear enough in his head. If we have a final product in the form of Dr. Sangay who spent 16 years at Harvard, every Tibetan should think twice before applying to any graduate programs at Harvard.
I would have answered that question something along this line. “It is a difficult question for me to answer for two prominent reasons. First, I was born and raised in India. By that logic, I have never been a part of an independent Tibet. Second, we are not seeking independence. The CTA policy is very clear on this.
Therefore, I will never be able to make any meaningful comment on what it is like to be a Prime Minister without a country, especially when I have not been and never will be a part of an independent Tibet.
Jamyang Norbu la, Sayadruk la and others,
Here is my fair interpretation of Kalon Tripa Dr. Lobsang Sangay la’s answer, if you add / insert “exile” after uhh or before Tibetans, then you get the full picture of his outstanding answer. He articulated his answer very diligently with completeness of his feeling from his young age:
Here is edited version “only word “exile” is added / inserted after uhh or before Tibetans” rest remain intact:
“Well uhm, I can’t say for sure because uhh exile Tibetans, we never had a country, so till you experience what it is to be like uh to have a country then you can say what it is like to be without a country. Having said that I do feel uh that uh someone without your own homeland, it’s like someone without uh air to breathe. When you, when you have a country, when you breathe air, you don’t feel the importance or you don’t feel the need of it because it’s so natural. You breathe air in and out, but those who don’t, it’s very suffocating, because on daily bases from morning till you sleep at night you have to always read about, know about, deal about issues… not having a country, not having freedom and worse sufferings of Tibetans inside Tibet. So even at night you dream about it. So it’s very suffocating so I don’t know what it is to be uh to be a leader of a country but I know what it’s to be a leader of uhh people without one’s homeland. It is suffocating. It is difficult. That’s why it’s called struggle. We are in freedom struggle. The right word is struggle. It is a struggle. But one has to embrace struggle, make it your own and move forward towards success. That is the goal”.
Joe Hamilton, I agree with you. Lobsang Sangay should use a translator. seeing the clip, i only see apathy and laziness on his part now that the election is over and he has become the prime minister. We cant afford that. I also agree with you whole heartedly about the cow story. o.k, it worked with the masses but now its time to get serious, deliver some goods and not be in that same mode of thinking.
Dear Puron Dorje la,
Of course I accept your explanation. A mistake was made and that is all. I don’t think anyone is assuming anything sinister in this. But I think that since we are on the path of democracy Lobsang Sangay la should clarify mistakes like this as any leader in democratic countries do.
when I was in Tibet, I often heard that some of Tibetan exile were petty minded opportunists. I thought it could be not true; after of all, they were who set up an exiled government and schools, so on. but after reading several of Jamyang la’s writing, specially after this one, some of you are really petty minded opportunists and could not move beyond personal politics. It is really petty.
Sayadruk,#45,you seem pretty reasonable with your comments.I specially liked your few ideas of suggestion toward the end of your comment.
I have noticed some comments by some of us are quite discouraging, disrespectful and pretty insulting to our Kalon Tripa.As a fair minded Tibetan,I would like to offer some suggestions.Please;do say all you want to, to convey your message you have,good,bad or ugly;yet be respectful to our person/persons in the office.Because that “OFFICE” IS AS PATHETIC AS it may seem,nonetheless is six million strong’s pride and arrogance.China insults us and belittles us out of hatred and vengeance,and Tibet loving wonderful friends like Joe Hamilton belittles us with love.Look at it from whichever side you want belittling isn’t okay when you talk of my Kalon Tripa inthat way.Criticize the Kalon Tripa and every one else holding seats in the office where they deserve in the strongest term possible.But I don’t want to sense the hot breath of hatred through some one’s nostril.
If in fact you think KT is wrong some where,offer your side of the opinion.Why need for an anger at him.We Tibetans intend to stick together in spite the differences and i would love our good friends,like Joe who truly loves the Tibetans and works harder than many of us for Tibet to help us do just that.I have not a shred of doubts about how much Joe Hamilton truly cares for us.As a result it took me this long to say what I longed to say without offending you,Joe.
Hello Ugen ! I can´t follow your argument ! It´s obvious that you simply don´t like Jamyang Norbu la´s honesty ! But when you write
” when I was in Tibet, I often heard that some of Tibetan exile were petty minded opportunists. I thought it could be not true; after of all, they were who set up an exiled government and schools, so on”
I immediately think of Lodi Gyari, the worst special envoy known to mankind !
So let´s not beat around the bush anymore ! LS and his comments, mistakes and appalling lack of language skills are shameful and Tibetans in Tibet deserve better !
But as we all know, this in the end will boil down to middle way versus Rangzen and that is what spurns me on to continue. The Middle Way has failed for Tibetans that have resorted to BURNING themsleves !
Let´s see how the CTA, Lodi Gyari and LS put a spin on that to smother calls for Rangzen !
In the end it won´t matter coz only the deaf, dumb and blind will not have noticed that change in exile politics is inevitable !
Kalon Tripa should not apologise for these nonsense. Let’s say, even if his English is not good and then so what? He is not an American, he is a Tibetan and he speaks Tibetan. It is enough for me. If he takes well versed english speaker like Jamyang La wherever he travels, who is going to pay for it? I am sure Jamyang La would not do it for free.
We all know dharamsala has its limit and could not do much. Still, there is a Harvard guy who left America and came to server his people and government in a small town India. For Tibetans inside Tibet, this symbol alone is very powerful one.
tibet for tibetans. i respect your feelings but as one tibetan myself i must say that i really appreciate the criticism from Joe Hamilton. i can sense and feel that he thinks like a tibetan and cares about tibet and tibetans.And its not easy to do that on his part. why not he take the easy route like most inji’s? refugee, peace, non violence blah blah..
and i must say that some people really like to play the newly arrived card. i dont know how newly arrived you are or whther you are really a recent arrived from Tibet. I know many newly arrived people who think totally differnt from from ugen.
To me the question sounded like one of those rhetorical ones where a direct answer wasn’t expected. That would have left the avenue open for Kalon Tripa as a diplomat & politician to steer the conversation in his favour – to talk about Tibet issue as it really is.
I refer to Puron Dorjee’s transcript of LS’s interview. It seems to cover the entire conversation that points to origin and end of LS’s ‘Tibetans
NEVER had a country’ statement.
Puron makes a reliable person especially in this case as he is a LS supporter, and though he seemingly provided the transcript to show us the ‘entire picture’ in an effort to prove JN jumped to the conclusion, but the poor fellow perhaps doesn’t have any clue but he just corroborated What JN wrote above. And this is the microcosm of problem with Lobsang Sangay’s gungho supporters: they don’t see his self-destructive anti struggle political scheme but his outer facade of flowery rhetorical, Harvard & ‘new generation’ illusion and get carried away that borders to fanaticism. They swallow whatever he says with absolute affirmation as though they some lines from Bible or scripture, completely ignoring Buddha’s vital teaching to be introspective that Tibetans are intrinsically expected to be by virtue being Buddhists. I’m not a fan of Jamyang Norbu, I disagree with him on some sensitive issues, but if those words were said by him these same people who are defending LS like the dogs in George Orwell’s Animal Farm defended the Pigs, they would hurl him With name callings and literarily lynch him. It’s a different yardstick when it comes to Lobsang Sangay, & perhaps they may not realize this but the issue of what’s good for our cause then becomes secondary to them. How many of you LS supporters opposed his despicable behavior of turning back on Woser’s la repeated remainder to him that Tapey was very part of recent wave of self-immolations and his name has to be mentioned along with the others??? Even New York Times counted Tapey when they reported the total number of self immolaters. The first time could have been mistake, but why did he leave Tapey’s name out the second time despite Woser la and many of us raising the red flag??? Here lies one of my problems with him – his lack of integrity. The act was deliberate, and by ignoring Woser la he was telling her, and us, that he doesnt listen to her despite her standing or anyone of us, and thereby sending a message to China that ‘they do not need to fear Woser and that she means nothing to him’. A subtle but colossal act of betrayal of his own people and spineless effort at appeasing China.
Woser la deserves respect no less than Lobsang Sangay. LS may be ‘prime minister’ but he’s basically a ‘lead activist’ – we are in the process of fighting for our country. We don’t have our country yet. And in this fight to regain our country no one is in more harms way than Woser la. She’s the one who’s fighting this battle from the battleground, not Kalon Tripa LS or you and me, with enemy surrounding her from all four directions. We all should be ashamed of what LS did to Woser la. Woser la said she will continue to fight for inclusion of Tapey’s name in Lobsang Sangay’s official list as long as it takes. I’m with Woser la.
Jamyang Norbu la,
Well … Jamyang la, you call it mistake and more over you want direct clarification from Kalon Tripa. I think this is bit of a stretch demand from you. I think it is very small syntax error and that too happened during live instant Q&A session.
I consider you an erudite person, so please don’t write “But I think that since we are on the path of democracy …”. Sorry to tell you that we are already operating democracy in Dharmasala, India for last many years now and not on the path of democracy.
Woeser la deserves a lot more respect than Lobsang Sangay because she has EVERYTHING to lose in this battle and LS has not even recognised that there is a battle ! His snub of Woeser la is despicable and has shown him to be unfit of leadership. Although he repeats the word democracy time and time again he, like many others, is not willing to live it and stands above criticism ! That´s when democracy dies. In this case, before it was even born !
I don´t count on Tibetans in Exile to change this attitude towards Dharamsala but I KNOW that Tibetans in Tibet will continue to do things that will either force the CTA to change it´s policy or to disband !
It is human nature to look after one´s own interests and I do not condemn anyone that does so. But when people use the Cause as a front to enhance their careers or fill their pockets with money or fame, they are on my list of people that I will refuse to respect and definitely work against. China is top of that list and some Tibetans are up there too !
After my initial disappointments in the Cause I discovered people like Jamyang Norbu la, Lhasang Tsering la and immediately knew that there was still hope for Tibetans in Exile. To then find out that they were OUTLAWS in Tibetan society was at first funny but then I realised how tragic it was !
Some people will go down in Tibetan history. The two named above and of course Woeser la and all the other heroes !
And some will go down in history but in another context. One of them is definitely Lodi Gyari. Let´s see how LS intends to be seen. As things stand at the moment it´s not looking good for him !
Thank God *****s for #54 Tsuddru-la.I think you’ve said it all.
#53,Wangchukla,I left Tibet with my family in 1960.So,I am not a recent arrival.You can rest be assured.I have an idea,in fact good idea who Joe is and I do view him like you have said a free, frank and very vocal about Tibet for Tibetans.Having said that; it still does not give him the right to ill speak of Kalon Tripa for Joe’s command over English language need no mentioning.He is absolutely fluent in the language.So…
Sorry but as a supporter I DEMAND either a translator or fluent English ! It´s too important to be sloppy or poor ! Every single word from every single politician is scrutinised in the West. He pronounces the words LEAVE and LIVE exactly the same…there is a big difference and when it comes to talking about Tibetans in Tibet it´s very important to at least get the basics right !!! This has led to misunderstandings in the past and will again !That is simply unacceptable !
Among some Tibetans in exile, the term of Sarjorpa has two different meanings, one is literary meaning which references these tibetans who just ‘newly arrived’ from Tibet, the other references to these dirty, uncivilized and uneducated Tibetans who were born under the china’s occupations and then came to India to beat up their wives and to screw up Injis. So, WANGCHUK, tell us which one you are referencing to ?
Well…in that case,I must belong to the uncivilized and uneducated one,but I am a wife myself,so I can’t be beating myself up.Or..could or would I ???? Oh my,am I turning into a schizophrenia. Bye !!I am running away from this place before it’s too late.
tibet for tibetans, so you would prefer inji supporters who give alms and patronise us to only talk about human rights and basically handle us with kid gloves.
ugen, i am not one of those people who make distinction between sanjors and nyingjors. i am a nyingjor but am totally at home with a sanjor because i know my history quite well.
I take offence to your second refernece becuase it seems like you are implying that there are 2 differnt kind of sanjors and that there should be a distinction made. can you clarify that for me first?
I agreed with Joe Hamilton…..100%.
Although I helped in my small role for LS katri campaign, as time goes on, it seems LS think he is the big player like any other politicians at the expense of ordinary people. I dont get what in a world that he makes dispicable statement on Woeser la? I have no word to describe and I have completely lost faith in this freaking so called democracy or so forth. What LS says matters as long as his tenure continues.
NG
Cut the Sanjorpa Nyinjorpa crap, STAY ON THE TOPIC!!!
Let me paraphrase it again. Lobsang Sangay said he DOESNT KNOW how it feels to be without a COUNTRY but he does Know how it is to be without a HOMELAND. The fellow has clearly demarcated the line between Country & Homeland. And you LS cheerleaders call it a ‘slip off’???!!!!! Holy crap!!! Now that’s almost like getting caught red handed and still denying any wrongdoing!
Or may be he is being honest and candid this time. I give you guys the benefit of doubt. LS was born in a country called India, so definitely he should have no recollection as to how it feels to be without a country. May the HOMELAND he was talking about was referring to Lama Hatta the small village in Darjeeling where he grew up milking cow and collecting firewood during winter vacation. South Tyrol is small town in Italy, may be the size and quietness of the town reminded him of Lama Hatta and began missing it, and when the reporter asked him how did it feel…LS referred to his being half a world away from his homeland Lama Hata…and talked about how it felt…
But then according to this logic maybe he should be called Kalon Tripa of Lama Hata. TGIE is the govt of a country that existed until before China invaded in 1959. What is he doing there??? Ok I tried my best to reason out LS meant well but it’s still not making the cut. Puron Dorjee you want to add any more word and try it again?
Most of our people who have joined the Middle Path Bowl with the ease of a champion figure skater would find the statement by our Kalon Tripa ‘much ado about nothing’.
I am quite certain those who believe in a Free Tibet like myself find the statement vile and offensive.
I have to say I have studied in the UK AND I can say for this question, I would have definitely given a better, more impressive and coherent answer than Katri L.Sangay. ‘What is to a PM without a country?’ is a bit provocative question atleast. My answer in a minute without thinking much is:
To be the Tibetan PM under HHDL and serving for the 6million Tibetans for restoring our freedom is the most gratifying job ever.Morally, legally and personally I am the free spokesperson for Tibet which is under China’s illegal occupation now. Currently, Tibetan is going through a death sentence, cultural genocide and Tibetans are committing self-immolations calling for the end of China’s rule and return of HHDL, in solidarity with our brenthens in Tibet, as the head of TGiE, I call upon the world leaders and public to hear the voices of Tibetans for freedom. Thank you.
Something like this, but Katri despite being educated at Harvard, to this basic and simple question, he is at the most waffling, bit emotional and doesn’t present himself as strong, dynamic and futuristic!! He needs to stand up and do much much better next time.
Hoping Against All Hope BY SUDIP MAZUMDAR
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/03/05/hoping_against_all_hope_a_leader_faces_a_grim_dilemma_in_tibet
It is either a big mistake on his part, a slip of his tonguu, or it is something sinister. I am of the first opinion. This is based on his many many mishaps during the election even though there is some basis for the sinister too if anybody had cared to read his article on Kundun, where he referred to H.H as only “the Lama” repeatedly – needless to say highly disrespectful and quite unnecessary unless he was trying to please somebody with that deliberate usage.
Now, anybody can make a mistake. Although, it must be getting really tiring for his supporters to keep defending him so many times. But, anybody in their right mind would have immediately caught himself as soon as they uttered those words (especially being a lawyer) and immediately clarified himself to avoid the misunderstanding. But he kept on going trying to bullshit his way like he always does. And if Jamyang Norbu does not catch him and put him to task, who among our esteem journalists (do we have any?) is going to ask him that? Which politician of the opposition (here is our problem since we don;t have one)is going to once again ask him to clarify himself?
If you doubt his english, then you must doubt his Harvard credentials too since he is a harvard graduate with a DOCTORATE (for heaven’s sakes!!!). Even so, it will only take a marginally developed english speaker to communicate himself properly. The main point is he speaks without thinking, preferring to be slick and shooting from the hip and the examples are many and varied. That was why people were afraid of his ascession, not because they don’t like him. Now, imagine him speaking in front of congressonal hearing again or other important meetings where he might once again prefer shooting from the hips.
Having said that, he still is the prime minister and probably the prime minster for the next 9 years (after reelection. There is nobody else who can effectively challenge him next time) and the future of Tibet is in his hands. Lets hope he learns from this and gain experience. Tibet does not have time to experiment with inexperience leaders, especially with such dire situations inside Tibet. Lets all pray he improves.
great post/analysis Tsering Dorjee! can i ask you however why you think “There is nobody else who can effectively challenge him next time”?
@dorji: Who else is there? He will be the incumbant and thereby has the advantage right away. I doubt any Kalons under his administration is going to run against him. We won’t have the big names with considerable experience, reputation, and integrity like last time. NOw, this time he will have 5 years experience at the helm. I think it is a wrap in my humble opinion.
well if you are right i hope he gets all support and constructive criticisms necessary in order to improve his speeches impact. fast. Although i can think of several people (not many, but still..) who have community wide recognition/visibility and dedicated all their life to the cause.
I have one question to some of you. It is a simple question. Beside shouting rangzen slogans and bashing the Kalon Tripa, what else we can do for Tibetans ? We need ideas and practical solutions, not usual the exile petty politics.
As a Tibetan who is in constant contact Tibetans inside, this is the question I often hear. If you do not have any solutions and actions, your critic and bashing are nothing more than the ccp’s propagandas and personal politics.
We should not worry too much about what and how he said in the front of injis. I know some of you have a tendency to think that it is everything. but we know it is not.
Small German Newspaper ?????? I find this disturbing…if it´s SMALL then why even give an interview ? If it´s a newspaper , why is there a video ??
Seems like the downplaying of blunders is not just limited to LS fans !!!!
“The Kalon Tripa and his office would like to clarify a recent statement made by the Kalon Tripa to a small German newspaper (stol.it) in Northern Italy
When asked “What is it like being a Prime Minister without a country?” the Kalon Tripa responded “I can’t say for sure because Tibetans we never had a country.”
The above remark could be misunderstood and misinterpreted. Therefore, we would like to clarify that the Kalon Tripa was actually responding in the context of the stateless position of Tibetans in exile and particularly his own position as a Tibetan in India. Tibetans of his generation, born and raised in exile, have yet to experience living in a place they can call their country. Dr. Sangay has done hundreds of interviews since assuming the post of Kalon Tripa and his stand has always been and continues to be that Tibet was historically an independent nation and it is presently under occupation.
We regret any misunderstanding the statement may have caused, and hope this clarification address the matter”
Dr L Senge made erroneous statement and it drew public concern. But his actual intention wasn’t that. Anyway thanks JN la for bringing to blog sight. unlike in Chins- occupied Tibet we all are enjoying democratic world, where we can debate, criticize, evaluate, Share the feeling about on going issue. So there is nothing wrong to point out the Kalon’s slippery mistake or anything. democratic leader usually hear worst but can do best.
Please Joe Hamilton … Cut all your craps. Now I find some Injis like you wants to dictate:
1 What language our Kalon Tripa should speak?
2 To whom our Kalon Tripa should speak to?
3 What content our Kalon Tripa should speak on?
4 What movement our Kalon Tripa should do?
I hope you have a country of your own, so please mind the business of your own country and stay peace.
If kalon tripa office is offering clarification to outside world, they would probably go with ‘local newspaper’ and those are small compared to national or Big newspaper.
I dont fcking care about this anymore.
So, what different approach should we incorporate in the upcoming march 10th?
How could we make the hunger strike in NY be a continuous one untill the demands are met…let the three continue untill they die and then the next three to continue ……until we get what we ask.
we need solutions and brains. what should we do now ? Jamyang La led if you can, thousands will follow you.
the people like you are so into the petty politics in exile, I feel that some of you are not getting it.
now we hit the bottom, as a tibetan who was born, raised and educated in Tibet, now a seismic shift occurred and nowhere to return. then where is the leadership and where is idea? where is practical solution?
specially, renzen propagandists,tell us where are we going now? come on, let’s talk and be honest about it.
Wrong Puron ! I want a Tibetan leader to dictate what we non Tibetans can do to support !
But I demand integrity, intelligence and honesty from that leader that wants to dictate.
Of course we all know that the vast majority of so called supporters will be satisfied with the state things are in at the moment…A FREE FOR ALL TIBET where anyone can do what they want, make money, TAX FREE, live in expensive hotels and BLA BLA BLA on an on about how beautiful Tibetans are and all that other nonsense.
These people travel to Dharamsala and even have their asses kissed. In return, Tibetans get theirs kissed too !
I don´t think that way !
I will be honest about what I see, understand and feel !
I think your Kalon Tripa should either talk about the exile community or Tibet which are two different things !
In the language of his choice of course but he should be aware that honesty and accuracy will and MUST demanded of him no matter what he talks about !
And I will be the first non Tibetan to disappear when Tibet is Free…let´s see what the asskissers do. Probably FLOOD Tibet and tell you how to live !
I pledged a long time ago that I will never set foot in Tibet coz it´s not my country and not my people and not my business !
But as Tibetans in Exile are in my country, on my media and have been asking for support, that is my business !
Rewalsar…Your explanation is nicely put but dangerously flawed. It is important that those of us who speak english from our birth whether in the USA, UK, or Europe understand without a doubt…no doubt what so ever…NEVER means NEVER.We have a proverb, “Never say never”. Because usually what you describe as never happening will happen and you are left with mud on your face. If LS is speaking about Tibet in any capacity now or in the past his use of the word NEVER is fundamentally in error as all english speakers know. Now, it is wrong to suggest, I am supposing, that he meant no deliberate harm in using NEVER. But likewise it is in error to defend him based on legal international law or the reality of TGIE. In the english speaking West it is very clear without a doubt the meaning of NEVER and it is very lazy,ignorant,or just plain stupid on the part of LS to use NEVER. NEVER means that Tibet, as a nation NEVER existed and therefore has no right to sovereignty. He is sloppy and should either keep his mouth shut or review his Harvard education.
Dear Jamyang Norbu, I’m sure you remember the “acceptance speech” of Dr. Lobsang Sangay on 8th of August 2011. He expressed gratitude to his “brave brothers and sisters in occupied Tibet” and he quoted the stele in front of the Jokhang in Lhasa which says: “Tibetans shall be happy in the land of Tibet and Chinese in the land of China”. It is evident that what he said here in Italy (“Tibetans, we never had a contry”) was referrad to Tibetans – like him – born in exile. We should firmly criticize the Kalon Tripa for carrying on a non-existing Middle Way policy. If he is going to insist with that mantra, his five-year tenure will be a dramatic failure. But let’s not use pretextuous reasons to “criminalize” him.
what is your point Puron Dorjee? that because LS is Kalon tripa he cannot make big mistakes? That we cannot try to say to him when he does harmful mistakes, so at least he gets chance to realize it and change it asap? That a Kalon Tripa should never be corrected in name of unity (…or..blindness..?)?
I fail to see your point. This is not “bashing”.
I dont think we should question his intentions, which i am sure are very pure and honorable. He left a career at HArvard (which pays as professor probably half a million dollars) in order to help his people (inside and outside Tibet). But please remember that even Kundun had to learn his role, strictly, with criticisms from his teachers. LS is learning a new role where he has not the luxury to do many mistakes.
My dear Joe la,
1 You said “But I demand integrity, intelligence and honesty from that leader that wants to dictate”.
My answer: In the past 400 years of Tibet’s history, our current Kalon Tripa is most educated in world politic and law, world history and modern education with degrees of kind from world most renowned universities. So we consider our current Kalon Tripa very intelligence. Since his childhood he had sense of community service, he worked very hard for his goal and in the end when he was successful, he kept his promise and move from comfortable good paying job in USA to India where he gets 1/10 of USA job salary. So we find him person with integrity. We have never heard of any corruption deeds he has done since his childhood, so we find him very honest.
Now regards to dictate in your sentence – we have never heard him dictate to our own people or to any Injis, he is our elected leader, not a dictator who goes around and dictate his subjects and supporter like you.
Please do not comment on other Injis, you have no right either. Any Injis who honestly helps our cause are all welcomed irrespective their color, creed or belief.
#84 Dorji la,
You incorrectly said “He left a career at Harvard (which pays as professor probably half a million dollars)”.
Please. This “Harvard professor” line was a con pulled on the naive Tibetan people to win an election.
It has repeatedly been shown that Lobsang Sangay la was a researcher on a year-to-year contract, and was under the direction of a real professor. He never taught, he simply researched — and only wrote 3 mediocre articles in 6 years. See: http://bit.ly/zNEuaC
Mr. Sangay was not even a Harvard employee. He (or more precisely the Hao Ran Foundation of Taiwan) paid Harvard for the privilege of having a desk there. Harvard simply passed through Hao Ran’s money after taking a cut. See: http://bit.ly/fWXZ7X
Mr. Sangay is now the Kalon Tripa, and his past job does not change his current leadership role. We all have a duty to respect the Office of the Kalon Tripa. But let us at least get our facts straight about the man currently occupying this office. He pulled a fast one on the Tibetan voters, but that’s politics so good for him.
i never said he was a professor. but that he had a career there, which potentially leads to a tenure. But a professor in Harvard earn high 6 figures, and he had a foot there as a researcher. To be on the payroll of a university and a professor in a renowned one demands a lot of publishing, and tremendous amount of politics. He did not publish a lot, true. My point is that i personally have no elements to judge his integrity and his intentions. Only his wordings and interview performance which need improving.
Only thing he is smart about is highlighting himself, he never fails to mention his extensive education at Harvard, even his appearance is highlighted with a shiny bright coloured material, to make him stand out of the crowd I guess. I wonder if he has a ornate crown in his closet just waiting for when he finds the nerve to wear it, and of course he should not forget a nice long scepter to go with his crown. A very insecure person, me thinks.
As a free and completely independent man I can say what I like ! In the case of Tibet I am seeking guidance. This is not en ego trip ( something LS should write on his forehead ) and I will, especially when it comes to Injis—MY PEOPLE—continue to talk openly about wrongdoings !
If you don´t like what I have to say that´s ok ! Just bear in mind that it will always be the truth and all based on personal experience !
That is basically what Tibet represents to me. A fight between the truth and the lie.
Tibetans have no chance of winning if they are not willing to face the obvious truth about their own society.
LObsang Singay is stumbling along a path that has been paved for him by others before. He should make the best of that and not take it lightly !
it does not make any difference whether he was a prof or researcher. The fact is he went there and graduated from harvard. As an young man who came from a refuge camp in the foothill of himalayas, the story itself is not bad thing.
Beside these symbolism and hopes, what else we have now? come on, be real.
JOE,
we are very happy to have guidance and leadership. We can ride of him tmr morning, but still, is going to change anything? he is not the problem. the occupation and killing are the problems , then where are the solutions? I do need hear them. So far, what I heard is bashing and petty politics, nothing more. Believe me, I read everything Jamyang La wrote, still nothing is there.
come on, let’s have real conversations here .
I suggest to those of you Bhoepa who feel you could be a better leader than LS, please do stand for the next PM election.
We shall see then! Just ranting after the fact can be done effectively by even a MONKEY.
JN as a political watchdog did his job and achieved his objective as KT office released their clarification.
If you feel you are an activist or supporter, just learn to do it effectivly from Tenzin Tsundue la.
please start Ugen la
I prefer to look to Tibetans in Tibet…no bullshitting, no compromise ! Tsundue la definitely has what it takes to be a great politician !The next election will be exciting and may be held sooner than anyone thinks at the moment ! Let´s see !
Joe la,
Frankly, I’m quite astonished that you have such a hatred for our current Kalon Tripa. Honestly speaking with this feeling in your heart, I think you are harming Tibet’s cause rather then helping us. Please do sit cool for sometime and have a long thinking for yourself, maybe have a audience with HH dalai Lama when he visits your country and listen to him very carefully on topic “How Injis can help Tibet’s cause”.
Studying the statistics after current Kalon Tripa took charge, most world supporters of Tibet and Tibetan people are very happy, but you fall into very small out layer category who feels opposite.
Cho cho Joe, Have Mani Rilbu..it helps me calm down.
Frankly i tried to look at the positive side after elections and thought LS could use his go getter, media savvy persona that he portayed himself to be to full advantage for tibet cause. but becoming more clear each day that that is also a sham or maybe he lacks the will and the courage to do things differntly for our cause.
no need to be so careful really. theres nothing to lose.
There is not one word of hatred just disappointment ! But you are probably the type of people that regularly play the Dalai Lama card. In your eyes, because I believe in burning the chinese lie-flag, I am also a violent person. And that´s why I don´t care what you think. As far as His Holiness the Dalai Lama is concerned it´s not acceptable to pick and choose minute fractions of what he says to prop up a weak argument. You have to understand the basic message. That is one of honesty, integrity and the courage and ability to follow one´s conscience ! Try it, it´s easy. The biggest pitfall is to ignore one´s own individual responsibility and pass it on to someone or something else.
I was raised by parents that taught me never to do that.
As Tibetans…your brothers and sisters…burn I don´t think it´s appropriate to calm down and it is definitely not acceptable to classify an honest supporter as someone that bears hatred within him.
But see it as you will, I will never kiss your asses !
Lobsang Singay could and must do better ! Those that are obviously convinced he is the right man for the job should be the ones pushing him to do better !
Tibet is burning and it´s time to step up actions and rhetorics!
As it stands, the CTA and it´s Kalon Tripa are not stepping up ! Tibetans in Tibet are !
That is why the exile world or community is not my main interest !
To every one on this page,my regards to all.Having said that,what’s happening in Tibet couldn’t be worse and sadder for the Tibetans in exile.This is all tragic beyond words can describe for us in exile.We feel it all in our bones like stabbing at our hearts in exile.So Joe,you can put that divisive weapon aside and listen to me once.We Tibetans communicate not by attention seeking word of mouths.We connect in touch with our brothers and sisters in yonder through our snow capped mountains,through soil we left behind,through prayer flags in exile that die to fly on a hill top in Tibet,through our yearnings for a drink from Kyicoe-river,through the yak herds many born in exile never seen.We connect !!! For you to say that we in exiles’ hearts don’t bleed for Our suffering brothers and sisters in the yonder is the most ridiculous thing to say of Tibetans in exile.Our brothers and sisters in Tibet feel our love and pain exactly the way we feel theirs at our hearts.Joe Hamilton,you just don’t get the Tibetans.Do you?Otherwise you wouldn’t say such hurtful things.Exile Tibetans can be asked to leave if our host nations choose to any time.Therefore we have to walk smarter than a cat,sit more perfect than a rabbit.Ask a Tibetan friend,and will tell you what it means.
Puron Dorjee la (#85) and Ugen la (#90),
I am of the opinion that we cannot discount anyone with a degree from Harvard University as lacking necessary knowledge, skills, abilities, and others (KSAOs) to do the job, a job that was given based on his or her degree from Harvard.
However, the key question which was often left out of discussion is, was he accepted into the SJD program at Harvard Law School (HLS) based on his GPAs and LSAT scores, among others? In other words, did he earn his admission purely based on his merits and through open competition? Or was he accepted into the program through a back door channel and the CTA and/or the Private Office had to pay for his education? I don’t know the answers to these questions.
However, there are three reasons why I raised those questions. First, looking at the manifest indicators, such as his recent interview in Italy which created furor in our community, it appears highly unlikely that his aptitude will get him into any meaningful program at any reputable universities, much less at HLS.
Second, when someone is forced into a program much against the wishes of faculty members in that program, it is in human nature to revolt in terms of faculty member not taking any meaningful ownership over that student. This could result in a poor training that a student will receive.
Third, there are debates over whether or not intelligence level of students can be built and expanded. The majority view is that it is inborn and that it cannot be boosted significantly. If intelligence level can be meaningfully increased, we should not have any dumb person on this earth by now. And if degree from Harvard is the silver bullet to skills that any human should have to be successful, His Holiness should send every Tibetan student to Harvard University, which will be the best weapon to fight Chinese.
Going back to my initial comment about the respect I have for Harvard degrees, I, however, conclude that anyone who did not get into any Harvard graduate programs through open competition should be open to receiving extra scrutiny. Harvard degree loses its luster when the one who was awarded the degree fail to perform in ways that are expected of Harvard graduates. Most importantly, individuals who got into any graduate programs in Harvard through special considerations do not deserve as high a respect as someone who earned his way into Harvard. Therefore, I encourage everyone to look at Dr. Sangay’s credentials in its proper context.
I am in no way suggesting that Dr. Sangay was not competitive enough to earn his way into the SJD program at HLS. However, I hope his supporters will encourage Dr. Sangay to show his bachelor and master GPAs and LSAT scores. Also, shed lights on how he gained admission into that program. I know how unpleasant and undesirable it is to having to exhibit one’s academic credentials, but this appears to be one of the best strategies to silence all those who are critical of his aptitude.
You should write cheap novels coz you can pack even more of your untruths into them ! The tactic of twisting and turning doesn´t work with me !I can´t imagine that any of my comments have hurt any honest people..Tibetans or non Tibetans and I am sure that Lobsang Singay doesn´t give a monkey´s ass what I think, write or say.
But I am sure you will find some non Tibetans that will restore your faith in Injis…there are many of them all ready and willing to plod along for another 50 years and hide behind their I LOVE TIBET badges or YOUR flags !
I have said my piece and every word of it is the truth that I stand by !
Ugen,Dorji..What other methods that we should employ which would bring about a better result?
Sayadruk la,
You are number 1 Copy cat of Donald Trump, when he ran for Republican candidate for US President; his main issue was Mr. Obama was not born in US. Ha Ha … funny isn’t? Mr. Trump is very much like you in this sort of thinking.
We elected him as the head of executive branch of government, not the head of English department in Harvard. His job is to execute and to approves laws passed by the parliament.
If he can bring some efficiency at the execute branch, his job is done. An exiled government has its limit and can not do too much. You guys have not brought anything on table beside these usual boring rangzen mantras.
I asked before and i ask again, what should we do? several years ago, when I was in China, one chinese scholar told me that ‘these exiled Tibetans are nothing , but a bunch of whining children ” now I do see his points.
Also, some of you think the government and a leader can solve all the problems. As we see, it can not so stop whinining if you have nothing better to say.
How many mistakes is the PM allowed to make before we can sack him? Is there a mechanism in the exile setup for such a thing? If so, we should start counting!
tibet for tibetans, i have one question for you.are you upset with the points of criticisms that Joe Hamilton has made or is it because you think as a non tibetan that he has no right to say those things?
Puron Dorjee la (#104)
Let me correct you: Mr. Donald Trump did not participate in the GOP presidential race. He contemplated running for the race. People speculated that he may contest the race. However, in the end, he did not. Currently, there are four candidates in the race and Mr. Trump is not one of them.
I take it as a huge compliment that that you think Mr. Trump thinks like me. Thank you.
However, the analogy you drew between what I said in my last comment and Mr. Trump’s comment about President Obama’s birth issue is inaccurate. I did not say that Dr. Sangay is incompetent. I did not say that Katri’s academic credentials are not impressive enough to get him a place in the SJD program through merits and competition, anything along those lines.
I did speculate certain things based on his performances thus far including his recent interview in Italy. However, my key message was that he and his supporters should show people his credentials and share the manner in which he got admissions in the SJD program at HLS, if you will, to silence all the critics who question his aptitude.
what mistakes are you talking about? what he said was not his policy and neither his attentions, at most, he might misspoken some english words. so what? he might be very tired after all these engagements and travelings.
still, waiting, what should we do? come on,
Ugen la (#105)
No, we did not elect him as the head of English Department at Harvard. You want to overlook his language proficiency, or lack thereof. That is fine. But what is your point? That his language skill is indeed not reflective of a student who spent who 16 years at Harvard? Just say it upright. Leaving aside the language component, look at the content of the message. What is in there? What did he say? Were they coherent?
His job ends at increasing the efficiency of executive branch? That is it? Why don’t you list some of the areas where efficiency levels have gone up after he assumed his office? You were only thrashing all your opponents (who have views contrary to yours), but you have not said anything in support of Katri in terms of his achievements. Thrashing your opponents should not be seen as being loyal and supporters of Katri.
There are people in here who don’t like views of injis. But you see every point your Chinese friend makes. Good for you.
to add to sayadruk’s comment, i think Harvard did special favor in case of Lobsang Sangay. first of all, tib govt selected him because of favoritism and then harvard maybe wanted him to succeed becuase he is first tibetan and representing tibetans and so harvard standards were laxed in his case.
btw, joe la, you speak my mind and i’m sure many other tibetans.
Wangchuk La,
Another very good speculation you brought on the table. Haha… your point is also very funny.
Ugen has one Question and you guys should think through and come up with a good one:
“still, waiting, what should we do?”
(1) at least, in Tibet, here is a Tibetan guy who studied and lived in harvard gave up everything and left a wife and kid in America and then came to this dirty third world country to server his exiled government. In practical term, it is not big than a small prefecture in Tibet. This story alone transcended everything you guys ever hoped for.
(2) it is early to say about his legacy, so far, he did ok, at least a website is running and started a research unit, energized Tibetans both inside and outside of Tibet.
My question is to you guys is what should we do beside whinining and repeating rengzen mantras? come on, waiting
The way Lobsang Sangay won election was right out of UP/Bihar political books. I still resent we couldn’t elect TNT. I blame Jamyang Norbu la for the defeat too and his explanation that it was a mistake on his part hasnt sat well with me yet.
All through the election campaign one of the main weapons used against TNT was ’embezzlement’ of money during his tenure as Katri which we later learned was actually a ‘deficit’ which JN himself acknowledged in this blog. Now “deficit” wasnt a new word in public finance of gangkyi in 80s, nor all the years preceding 80s delivered ‘surplus’ to TGIE. India, the country TGIE look upto and emulate her governance and financiing, has run on more deficits than surplus since independence. I know it may sound like ‘scratching an old turd’…but if it was a deficit how come JN being knowledgable and in the know of TGIE finance, couldnt differentiate between an “embezzlement” and a “deficit” and jumped to the conclusion and published in his periodical as money missing under TN’s watch? Weren’t the financial Statements of the said year available to investigate then? Or did JN come under someone’s influence or he published the story at the behest of some vested interest groups who were then looking for ways to smear TN’s name? So many questions and his explanation of ‘mistake’ as I said doesnt make the cut given how shrewd JN is.
Anyway I m tempted to talk about the election because someone above said that we dont have any candidate to challenge LS in 2016 election, so victory will be bound to be his and there is nothing we cuold do! too bad. The question first is whether or not you support LS’s candidacy in next eletion. If you do, then i got your point. If you dont, then we still have TNT who I agree may not be the best, but no doubt hes more competent and able than LS or anyone in our midst, even after LS will have 5 years of experiece under his wing. But ofcourse if TNT doesnt wanna give it a shot next time around, then we may have to suck it up with LS. Lets do a quick maths, in 2016 TNT will be what, 66 67? Thats not bad at all if he considers to run. I know Lobsang Wangyal and the mob will play age-card again as if Katri election is a Miss Tibet contest.
so are you both secretly acknowledging that LS is not doing a good job?
to ugen and daveno.
Wangchuk, you still need to come up with a good one for Ugen’s question.
“still, waiting, what should we do?”
At the moment, No TNT and neither LS will change anything in Tibet beside going to different capitals of world to ask help and support. LS has been doing that, some of his interviews I have watched are forceful and up to the points.
I could not see anything what TNT would have done things differently. If I miss something, tell us what we have missed and what he did not do?
again, what we should do?
Daveno,
i told you already what i personnally concluded we should do, which has not been so much said explicitly publicly already. do like the jews: insure there will be several generations of tibetans. you know what that means man. seek financial independence, be a businessman. Work to accelerate the moral progress of mainland brainwashed chinks (bravo Tenzin Tsundue, i ve been waiting years for such initiative, even if Taiwan is a proxy, they have loads of contact in china thru business stakes). Support education in Tibet. Insure our youngsters are ready for this tough world in India. fight against intoxication. And most other traditional activism is good too.
my 2 cents, that i am applying myself.
sorry Jamyangla i sent 3 times same comment you can delete the 2 first.
but honestly, i m worried about influx/immigration of chinese in Tibet. For that i m wondering what we can do to at least reduce quickly.
Here we go again. LS is a “trained lawyer”; he’s was ‘professor’, he makes “half a million dollar”, he gave up his ‘coveted job at harvard to work for us in India’, he’s a ‘scholar’, he’s expert, yada yada… Guys why dont you just sum these all up and use one word to describe him: hes a Rajnikanth! Finish! You will have favored JN by not not clogging his blog with redundant words and it’s easy to for us to read as well.
I thought we dealt with this during the election time. Dear LS cheerleaders, for your own benefit dont dig this up. He will look only phonier the deeper you dig, trust me. It maybe his good karma that he has friends like you who are ready to pull trigger even if someone said LS parted his hair on right side of his head instead of usual left. And through your hardwork he’s our Kalon Tripa today. There’s no room for mistake for who hes now, specially when he’s talking to press. So, tell him to watch his mouth before he opens and ask him to especially think before he utters, and dont let us down. And yea, dont forget to thank us btw, because of us he learned something very important today. Now that itself is a service from us to him.
Ugen, I dont know if TNT would not have done anything differently. He’s TNT, and here we have LS – two different persons, two different style of doing things i m sure. But thing we all can rest assured TNT wouldn’t have said “WE TIBETANS NEVER HAD COUNTRY so i dont know how it feels to be without a country, BUT I DO KNOW HOW IT FEELS TO BE WITHOUT A HOMELAND”. My 5 year old niece knows if you said that, you are differentiating COUNTRY and HOMELAND as two different things. The sentence is actually mutually exclusive. A 5 year old girl can say that, but for a Prime Minister of a country to say that…I dont know, maybe i m out of mind or he’s.
SANGAY,
I see, he is nothing but a phony and lair, someone who could not speak english properly and had never done anything good. What else?
Let’s say he was a janitor from harvard and still he was willing to leave his wife and kid to come to India to serve. People bought the symbolism and the hope. it has been my point. After of all, our movement is largely a symbolism and a hope. Your rangzen propagandists are also preaching the symbolic rengzen mantra. what is different from mani mantra? come on, tell us,
You rengzen preachers are so enlightened human being, so you must have some englighted advise and solutions to cheerleaders like us. What should we do now? beside repeating renzen mantras.
16 years in Harvard, but yet he cant get a basic soundbite right. It shocking how in every media interview he gives he never fails to talk about his education at Harvard but can never seem to call on world leaders directly to speak out for Tibet.
At the most critical time he let the nation down, his clarification statement of his public blunder is worthless.
Just give this man a chance and give him practical suggestions and solutions to him.
Even if he said these things deliberately, what it does make difference to our cause?
I did not vote for him and neither campaigned for him, but I feel somehow he is picked and targeted by some of you for reasons I don’t know.
Ugen: I saw u mention in one of your comments that
LS was not elected based on his Harvard degree but
i beg to differ on that. It is preceisely because of the
harvard degree he got elected, which much to my amusement
u seem to agree a little later. Come on, dude, what else
does he have besides that?
Contrary to other people, I wasn’t shocked to hear him
say that sentence. If u had paid attention during the
election campaign aside from fawning over his
dreamy eye brows, he has shown he is immensely
qualified to such utterances. It is not going to change, folks.
He will supply more material. It is inevitable.
I’ll tell you what to do Ugen- go to basunath take a dip, don’t forget to take your laundry and also take some food and make a picnic of it! It’ll do you good! Now stop with your silly question! No one will tell you what to do, you gotta come up with it and do it yourself, like our brave bros and sis in Tibet! If you can’t think of anything, just follow the herd.
Jamyang Norbu la,
this is what happen, when Shit hits the fan. You seem to have a history of doing it. And you are good.
For some reason, (?) folk here seem to be huffing and puffing bigger emotional smoke on LS’s unintended slip of word than, what really happening in Tibet, at this very moment.
Do we really think it is time for us to worry about LS’s Harvard credential ?
And what’s all about this, seems to be a ‘ division’ between Ranzenwala & Middle pather? Is there such a thing call R wala and M Pather?
And please don’t pose as authoritatively on Tibet issue. Being Tibetan doesn’t mean you know better.
Joe Hamilton is one fine Inji brother who deserves respect and love from us. We can disagree on many issues but with manner and civility is needed.
Some one here was even digging up old story about TNT’s deficit scandal. WTF??
LS should think twice before uttering a word from his mouth because he is no longer a commoner like us. As a Kalon Tripa of the exile government & the support he got from the people inside Tibet, it’s time for him to watch out for his words, while speaking to the outside world about Tibet. I personally don’t like his comments. But you know “to error is human” & I hope next time he will come out with more responsible comments keeping in mind the importance of Tibet & it’s people.
Let’s not judge LS harshly as he is the one on the hot seat. It’s important for us to give support whenever necessary & test him every now and then. Through that way he can be a better leader.
We must accept the fact that one can serve the interest of the nation through many ways. most of the people can do it by following the directive principle of political party or influential individual activist. But few can serve it by educating the masses through the writing. their mighty words and thought provoking sentences, which serve the interest of our nation in most efficient way. Jamyang Norbu doing it and done it. We must recognize it. So do not say
‘ he is bla. bla bla… not doing anything…..” His life long writing on Tibet and it causes is some thing no Tibetan had done it before. So treasure it. He can sit comfortably anywhere but we must not absent ourself going through his blog. there is no need of POST AND POSITION to serve our nation from the heart. Tenzin Tsundue was single man army. did awesome job. Tendor was too. Our brethren in Tibet are setting them-self on fire to protest against china voluntarily, no post and position in required to give true service for our nation. JN doing it and did it for long time. No matter what stand you embrace( Middle way or Rangzen) be part of integrated struggle.
Ahh!! I had that moment in my life where i was trying to make the most out of my answer to a question i hadn’t expected during a job interview.Later, my boss said ” I KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT WHEN YOU SAID…”.
I learnt my lesson to take time and let others be patient.
Dorji, For the influx of migratory aliens, there must be a semi-non violence method to discourage them.
He’s what you call a trophy wife. Stick him on the mantel shelf, just cos he looks good. But that’s about it.
Shame cos i look better than him.
like what Daveno..? chinks are very resilient (they tolerate worlds biggest abuses remember). Even when locals throw stones at them in north africa, they come and stay. So? sabotage of train and tracks? if you have a concrete idea in mind..share it (if it s not sensitive to public spreading and readig by our ccp watchers).
Ugen @126 and 127
No one begged LS or stuck gun gun at the back of his head and demanded he do the Kalon Tripa’s job. He wanted this job, actually so badly, to the extent of asking TNT, TW and audiences ‘to give him this job’ at couple of debates with no drop of ‘shenang menna tsernang’, the quintessential Tibetan trait, on his face. Everyone knows, not just him, that Kalon Tripa’s job entails relocating to Dhasa and he ran for the office knowing this well. Having said that, I’m not unappreciative of the sacrifice he made with regard to his family. I have firsthand experience of how it feels to leave one’s family behind and live in other side of the globe. I left my parents and relatives too when I moved to US.
However, the responsibility thats now on LS’s shoulder far outweighs the sacrifice he made. He’s our supreme political leader; he must make sure on a daily basis that he does his job well and at minimum won’t let us down. And on our part it’s our duty also as concerned citizens, to make sure he does his job by keepin him under watch! Sometime there maybe exception to the rule depending on circumtances, but his ‘family sacrifice’ is rarely one of them to absolve him of the kind of blunder in question! Not in my world atleast. The fate of Six million Tibetans and an ancient nation thats being ripped apart by China while the world is watching, is at stake. Any words LS utters that may cause confusion in the minds of general public as to validity of the existence of that Nation, is ground enough to ask for impeachment proceedings if it were United States Congress! Nobody here is asking that LS be impeached or asking him to resign, which means WE ARE LETTING HIM DO HIS JOB.
I know many of you think it was a negligible mistake. Let me tell what constitutes a negligible mistake. On a sunny morning while talking to press in the courtyard of Kashag if LS points at overlooking Mt. Dhauladhar and says the white stuff all over it is not snow but cotton, thats negligible! If he doesnt remember he ate ‘bhungoo amchok’ for breakfast but said’ho-shayang baklep’, thats negligible! Clear?
Ok now let me talk something about Ugen the person you. The way you have been trying shoot down us for critiquing LS actually matches with the governing ideology of the place you lived. You said you were in China in one of your comments above. Now thats exactly the crap leaders in Zhongnanhai in Beijing feed its 1.5 billions chinese citizens including your chinese friend: don’t question or critique your leader even if they make ‘mistake’, ignore it and thank them for working tirelessly for you!
Sorry dude, it aint gonna happen with us. We are not your chinese friend who will swallow whatever his leaders spew. This is democracy, not China and we will continue to critique LS and question is wrongdoings while remaining mindful that hes our Kalon Tripa.
And with regard to your question “what should we do” or whatever that is, you re asking to wrong person. Ask that question to LS, he’s our leader, thats his job to think ‘what should we do’ now. Over 25 people in Tibet have sacrificed their lives in unimaginable ways, the Time magazine recently quotated ‘self-immolations in Tibet is least reported news in the world. This situation of ours is akin to the aftermath of 9/11 attack in US. I’m in dire need of a leader too. Ask LS what are his plans.
Dorji,To discourage them we need to look at the very purpose or intention of their migration(Roti ,kabra aur makan).There may be ways to make it less attractive.The disadvantage of migration should be two-fold stronger than the incentive CCP is offering.Just to start the train of thoughts and ideas……..
From an outsider’s perspective, since LS was elected I feel like for the first time I’ve heard someone at the top of TGIE who is willing to make sharp comments, publicly, against the Chinese government.
So, I don’t know the intimate details of trust, deeper issues; just that I keep thinking, “Wow, I can’t believe I’m finally hearing someone come out and say that.” I mean, China Daily quoted him invoking “Jasmine Revolution” and “taking advantage of opportunities.”
Maybe it’s all just a reflection of youth, maybe it’s not good; maybe TGIE being hesitant, as in the past, to hint at any specter of revolution, was the better way. But the impatient and frustrated part of me is just so glad to finally hear someone talking tougher; yet as an outsider, I can’t know the deeper issues.
Don’t you think the “never had a country” statement just reflects the reality of youth, maybe? The more time that passes with no return to Tibet, the more all leaders eventually are those who “never had a country,” which is surely what he’s referring to. Just as a Vietnamese refugee kid born and/or raised in a Hong Kong camp feels “I’ve never had a country.” It doesn’t mean they are denying the existence of Vietnam.
At the same time, in a situation this precarious, with Tibet on the brink, every little statement has the potential of becoming a big problem. It could be that his unfortunate phrasing will be pounced on, used as some weapon (or maybe, at least now). But China already says 1000 ridiculous things every day about Tibetans, so maybe it’s more important to ask: will this statement be used in a damaging way in the West or India? Will a reputable news outlet, willing to risk its reputation by quoting something out of context, try to make a big deal about it, when it’s clear to any reporter researching the story that LS (imho) was not saying “Tibet doesn’t exist?”
I doubt it, but I guess anything’s possible. If China’s not quoting it out of context, though, and western media isn’t quoting it out of context, why are we quoting it out of context? Is it just that wounds run very deep, so anything that touches them–even accidentally–is this painful? I could understand that being the case. Maybe it’s very painful to simply hear the words “We never had a country,” even if it’s an accidentally poor choice of words.
But given that China and other nations don’t seem even to have noticed, if we freak out about it, aren’t we actually the ones likely to be turning it into a problem?
SANGAY,
I know it is coming! As you have implied, we were born and educated in Tibet therefore we think and act in certain ways: translation is ‘we don’t understand democracy’ . Right?
Yes, we were born and educated in Tibet so we know how dictators think and act. The dictators will tell you that the government is everything and the government can solve all the problem, the leaders are flawless. When they speak, they don’t make any mistakes and their languages are flawless.
Similarly, some of you think the government can solve all the problem and the leadership is everything. I tell you, the government can not all solve and the leaders can make mistakes, that’s why we have check and balance.
Some of you were born in refuge camps so it is normal to have this
‘refuge mentality’
what Tibetans need is sacrifice and ideas.
where are they? beside whining and typical renzeng manta .
And forgive me if I was too rude; I do know there are so many deeper issues than simply now having a guy who can “talk tough,” however refreshing that is.
the simple fact is both Dasa and Beijing can not change the history. The history is history. If they could, they have changed it already so stop whining.
so Daveno, to follow your toughts: incentives are (grossing numbers from ageing sources) 50 000 yuans from the state to any chinese building some business in Tibet. I guess that s one big factor if not the biggest.
400 thousands chinese militaries. which in turn brings thousands of prostitutes, of chinese restaurants and small businesses. Tell me how to influence that if u have any ideas..
Last week Lobsang Sangay said publicly at Trinity College, Ireland that “Chinese authorities have 2.5 million soldiers in Tibet, 3.0 million including paramilitary forces with automatic machine guns, for 6.0 million Tibetans, or one to every two Tibetans.”
Does anyone know any background to this statement? I’m assuming he’s including Air Force, ground, PAP everyone in a uniform (as well as undercover), correct?
As an Irishwoman I can’t help but compliment him on his closing statement: “We Tibetans are absolutely confident that our day will come,” a reference, I’m sure, to the Irish freedom cry, “Tiocfaidh ar Lá” (Our Day will Come).
http://tibet.net/2012/03/02/kalon-tripa-awarded-gold-medal-at-trinity-college-dublin/
BBC few years ago stated 1 soldier for every 30 tibetans. but what do they know…grossly understimated
Well, if it’s that many armed forces now, it would sure put that statement from the eyewitness in Lhasa in a new light (where the eyewitness mentioned 1.2 million Chinese staying in Lhasa).
Maybe Lhasa troop numbers really are that high, enough that when added to civilians and tens of thousands of undocumented migrant workers, to put total Chinese in the region around 1.2 mil. Or at least a lot closer than previously thought.
Ugen, you are one of those who divides our society along the lines of ‘Sanjorwa’ and ‘nyingjorwa’, and someone who has deep seated hatred against Tibetans born and raised in exile. You may not be aware of this but you have already begun cracking up your ‘outer shell’ and revealing your true self, like a chick emerges from an egg. In your earlier posting you said Tibetans in india are ‘lazy’, they indulge in divisive issues, refugee mentality and so forth. How do these garbages fall in the context of our ongoing debate????? What and who is provoking you? Are you here to debate about an important issue or create chaos and division in our society by spewing you pent up disease?????????? If you are looking to use this issue as pretext to throw up prejudice, go to Jackson Heights on weekends, there are enough Tibetans both from Tibet and India, and go one on one there. Tibetans in Tibet are giving up their lives for everyong one of us, and the last thing I want do is sit here and argue with someone looking to create infighting among tibetans.
I will not talk about this again. You look it up. The reason i brought the unquestioning mindset of Chinese people is because you said you were in China with your chinese friends. Look it up dude. Now thats a reality. China is an authoratarian country with zero tolerance policy. When and where did I say or imply ‘you are born in Tibet, you are educated in Tibet, yada yada yada???? I m telling you again, dont play this ugly ‘I’m from Tibet, you are from India’ divisive card. This is the job of China, not ours and anyone of us tibetan who plays this card and tries to divide us is WORSE than China. People who re self-immolating themselves in Tibet are making this sacrifice for all of us. I dont care if you re were born in Tibet and graduated from Mao Zedong institute for advanced studies in China, or born and raised in India. If a Tibetan, no matter where he is from -Tibet or India, if he’s bad hes bad. if hes good hes good! Clear? do we have an accord on this now??? Good!
By the way what the hell were you thinking we were doing here wasting time questioning and asking for clarification from LS for his comment????? Didnt it occur in the organ between your two ears that it was also a kind of “check and balance”???? I had a feeling I was playing paino to cow, maybe I was. Ok, I’m out to make dinner dinner.
SANGAY,
you started this game and not me. we were talking about Kalon Tripa and his ability to lead. I said from beginning, he is doing good, at least he is trying hard, so we should not complain too much and just give him a chance. then some of you brought all these none sense about his english and education,etc. then i said you guys are whining like child as my chinese friend said, then you brought this none sense about ccp’s rules in china. now you are accusing me to divide our community?
equally, I don’t care whether you came from indian slums and advanced Dalit institute, as long as you are Tibetan. It is enough for me!
please everybody take a deeeeep breath and listen to
this new song from dekyi tsering. Nyam du dro(rap song)
Sheila, Thank you.. finally..
I totally agree with you. specially the last paragrap of # 139
Jamyang Norbu,the trouble maker,listen carefully,
You have been repeatedly acting like an agent of the Chinese communist party and disturbing and misleading the Tibetan community abroad.
You ought to stop to destroying the unity of the Tibetan people/ You must not create excuses and instrument for Chinese propaganda.
I smell someone in the room with his usual sense of
entitlement as to the place where he was born and
the general condescending attitude towards those
who were born otherwise, always playing the US
and YOU ALL mentality; who has too high of an opinion
about his own intelligence when it is marginally
developed to the detriment of all and who is bound
to spew complete nonsense fron time to time. Smells
bad.
I am quite sure that Kalon Tripa actually meant Tibetans in exile when he said”Tibetans we never had a country” but it really is confusing and can have drastic consequences. He is the elected political leader of the Tibetan people now…. Isn’t he?
Question:
What happened to the “shung’ part of the discussion? I thought our Prime Minister mentioned that he will look into that matter. Anybody got any information regarding this?
Of course, it is not as important as the self-immolations going inside Tibet which we must really really push to get more publicity and get some concrete again going on. Lets bring back “Boycott Chinese Products” but this time lets go for broke. Lets not only go for boycott ourselves but pester the company’s that partake in such business and pressure politicians to do something about it. If nothing else, make them aware of it and if need be get the Union behind your goals as I am sure they will love to keep jobs in US. Lets not compromise this time as soon as they pretend to negotiate. It is getting too predictable.
“NEVER means that Tibet, as a nation NEVER existed and therefore has no right to sovereignty. He is sloppy and should either keep his mouth shut or review his Harvard education” (#82).
What the Kalon Tripa did say seems to be, “…Tibetans, never had a country…” His office’s official explanation seemed to have interpreted the term “Tibetans” as “exiled Tibetans of his generation”, which apparently means “exile-born”.
Since the text in question is contemporary and the author (who is alive) has already interpreted the controversial word “Tibetans” (the subject of the verbal phrase “never had”), the above hermeneutical attempt may well be regarded undue.
Furthermore, the explanation does not dialectically support the conclusions:
“He is sloppy”.
“He should … keep his mouth shut”.
The syllogism would be:
Anyone who says that the [exile-born] Tibetans never had a country must keep his mouth shut.
The Kalon Tripa said so.
So he must keep his mouth shut.
The major term appears to be very controversial.
TSERING DOLKER ,
” condescending attitude” are you kidding me?
then how about those? “he could not speak” have done nothing to cause” “nothing is there except his harvard degree” “phony’ ‘self promoter’ i can go on and on.
moreover, me personally,
“We are not your chinese friend who will swallow whatever his leaders spew. This is democracy, not China ”
what did he know about my friends in China? actually, some of them are in jail and actively promoting democracy, not whining child like some of you.
then, how about this “Mao Zedong institute”?
Have you heard about this institute? what this have to do with LS’s ability to lead?
Of course, we all know what he was trying to say, don’t pretend.
like some ccp cadres, some of you are accustomed to think in certain narrow ways ,whining and playing victims are some of these features.
Why Dharamsala and Bejing Dialogue is stalled now? Previous Kashag was concerning 101% for building confident measure and now seem in open arm fight through the western media. In reality ultimate matters is in the hand of China. Existing kashag should be active by not losing the focal point of Dialogue and negotiation, which essence is getting closer through the building confident measures. Does western media help in real sense to progress our negotiation or it stalls?
There are no so called negotiations and had never been one. there are only two solutions; one is chinese way which is the total annihilation of Tibetans, the other is Tibetan way, an unified tibet under one administration. history will be the judge. that’s it, the old way is over now for both Dasa and Beijing.
we need ideas and practical solutions. what should we do? beside whining and complaining.
Rewalsar…seems that your ego has gotten the best of you…I can understand your wanting to defend LS but all that I was merely doing was pointing out that those of us who speak english at birth where english is the language of the day, NEVER means exactly that…NEVER. It is ingrained in our minds that NEVER is a very strong word. My reason for pointing this out is that the effect which a statement like LS’s will have an effect on “western” public opinion.The west will interpret NEVER just as I have said. By the way, for debates sake, your arguments are based on Kalon Tripa damage control.After the fact. The fact is that had LS not been “sloppy” or ignorant we would not be having this discussion.
Rewalsar…By the way…Your response is as without substance as the peacock’s tail in forest fire
LS needs no one to defend him, he can take care of himself- Phochoka he is!.
He is now a political head and just as any politcal leader make mistakes and then offer explanation everywhere in this world-he did it on his own way.BTW, its an an honest mistake not a billion dollar or trillion dollar ponzy scheme or bribery scheme or unethical misconduct of lower than monkey-ass moral issue here.
Well, I would welcome any western media to give more attention to Lobsang Sangay, even if over this out-of-context sound bite, because what they will quickly find is someone going to Dublin and daring to say Tibet will be free someday like Ireland, or hinting that Tibet could take advantage of upcoming opportunities and launch her own Jasmine Revolution. This type of talk is the bulk and substance of the man’s public statements on Tibet, from what I have noticed at least, and it is not one the West has heard any time recently from the government. So I say, bring on the media. They will find quite a lot more surprising sound bites from Lobsang Sangay.
Sheila,
What is the main point you’re trying to convey?
#107 Wangchuk la,it’s neither the points of criticism nor Joe’s being Inji.It’s the way he undermines our Kalon Tripa’s status,it’s the way he bashes at Kalon Tripa like scolding a two year old,it’s the way he cares less about what any body thinks of in the Tibetan community.He thinks… kiss up our heroes and then curse the rest is okay thing.That its self is an insult to a Tibetan.Praise one and beat down the others…taking advantage of the differences we have in our circle of Tibetans.The concept of creating potentially two not patchable groups in our small community in exile,the concept of distancing exiles from the brothers and sisters in Tibet.There is lot to read in-between the lines.Though,I do not believe he does all that intentionally.But he is getting too carried away with his enthusiasm that he seems to care little or non at all for other side lying.Having said what I have said,Joe is one Inji I do admire.I took this as an individual Tibetan whose feelings (he doesn’t care.It’s okay) he has hurt by some of his comments and I am not going to sit back worrying about losing a good Tibet supporter and take the insults lying down.If I have refused take that from the enemies,all the more reason why I wouldn’t take it lying down from a true friend of Tibet.That’s all!
16 years in Harvard, but yet he cant get a basic soundbite right. It shocking how in every media interview he gives he never fails to talk about his education at Harvard but can never seem to call on world leaders directly to speak out for Tibet.
At the most critical time he let the nation down, his clarification statement of his public blunder is worthless.
#161 Sheila,it’s a great comment.I have read most of your comments.Like many of them.If you are a Tibetan continue writing here,there,every where.”ALL FOR TIBET.TIBET FOR ALL”!!!
Ugen # 148, You said LS is doing good. Can you tell me one thing thts worthy of calling good, beside interviews so far? I say this and note it down: LS did the biggest strategic damage to our struggle even before he’s one year into the office by alienating Woser la. The guy may think that was his smartest PR move to appease China, but he has no clue how big time he screwed up, and all of us!
Woser la is the conscience of Tibet. She’s the bridge for us to Tibet and all the sufferings and repressions going on there. And she’s the lone fighter who’s fighting all these head on single-handedly with our enemy. In our struggle for freedom what we need more than anything else is ‘team work’ with her. If LS had any leadership quality, he would collaborate with Woser la, create a network with her, and lead this struggle, so we could ‘mount pressure’ not just from exile but from Tibet as well, together! Read Woser la’s response how she felt when LS snubbed her second time. We all should be ashamed of, including you Ugen, of what LS did to her. By cutting off Woser la, he cut off ‘right hand’ of our struggle, showed horribly lack of leadership quality and short-sightedness. Facebook messages were full of reminder to LS that Tapey was left out and LS needs to include him. Did he listen anyone of us? NO! If you still think LS inspires you and gives you ‘hope’ and whatever that ‘symbolism’ crap, go ahead keep dreaming, dont wake up.
BTW, Woser la is currently under house arrest, can someone please tell LOBSANG SANGAY it’s the moral DUTY of TGIE to campaign for her release and not just leave it on Wang Lixoing her husband?????????
PS: I will get back to you on your # 155 later when I have time.
To Sangay la #165,
I agree, and we might also add that LS screwed up bigtime on his very first day in office at his very first press conference. He boastfully declared that he would appoint an envoy to talk with China.
(Check out http://tibet.net/2011/06/14/kashag-re-appoints-envoys-and-representatives-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama-and-secretaries/)
That forced Lodi Gyari in November to clean up LS’s mess by clarifying that LG reports to HHDL, not to LS.
Did LS let his big ego get in the way of the interest of the Tibetan nation? The fact is that the “dialogue” is between HH and the PRC, and that’s PRC policy as well as USA’s policy. Otherwise there is no “dialogue”. Oops!
I meant check this out http://tibet.net/2011/08/11/full-text-of-kalon-tripa-dr-lobsang-sangays-response-to-questions-during-meet-the-press-event-following-swearing-in-ceremony/
@157 what do you mean by “old is over’ what kind new idea is needed and how it gonna be practical one. It seem you are attempting to draw the most unspecific conclusion. seem not knowing what one is saying!
tibet for tibetans, sorry but i stil didnt get a clear answer. so if a tibetan said the same things that joe said would you feel the same way? thats what i would like to know. i may not be able to put it the way he did or be as articulate as him did but i do feel the same way. nothing personal. and when we fail to do our bit by atleast raising our voice to put things right because of our boxed thinking or fear of negative consequencces, we all lose. having said that i still would like to see LS take full advantage of this opportunity to learn and grow. his supporters keep talking about his sacrifices etc but this is actually a great opportuinty for him to learn, grow, shine, be courageous and become a true leader. but if he doesnt have the capacity ,then thats differnt.
Pema T. I guess the point was that I don’t think anyone who examines LS closely will find someone who thinks Tibet is not a nation. And in fact, they will find someone who’s making really strong statements about freeing Tibet–not in the “more human rights” sense, but the “throw the English out of Ireland” sense. Like, ultimate national freedom.
I do realize, you know, they are simply words. At the same time, it’s encouraging hear the words and hope that it’s a starting place for stronger action.
Sanjay,
sometimes when I listen someone of you, I feel that some comrades from the central party schools in Beijing are talking, Logic and reasons seems not working. I have said clearly many times before.
(1)In the circumstance, LS is doing good. He made several strong worded statements and gave more interviews more than samdhong rinpoche within a yea. Moreover, he travelled to several foreign capitals and organized a prayer meetings, all these are not bad, isn’t it?
(2)he has already started some policy initiatives such as establishing a policy center and more is on the way.
(3) Woser la is just one of these Tibetans who is sacrificing their life to Tibetan cause, and she understands that too.
finally, what are your solutions? beside whining and usual ranzeng mantras. of course, there are nothing, i mean really nothing, right?
Please show up tomorrow for protest on march 10th wherever you are. Arguing on the internet is great but so is showing up for the protest tomorrow. Free Tibet!
Ugen # 155
What on earth do you mean by ‘you are all whining and complaining’? Is it WHINING and COMPLAINING to say, “Tibet is a country, it does and did exist since centuries before LS and us were even born in exile, and that LS should think next twice before he opens his mouth to press next time”? If you dont believe in the statement, thats fine. Otherwise, check the meaning of the words before you open your mouth, dictionary.com is just click away, dont be LAZY!
And then you say:
“…then, how about this “Mao Zedong institute”?
Have you heard about this institute? what this have to do with LS’s ability to lead?”
Where did I say or make connection, implicitly, explicitly or even remotely, LS with the Mao Zedong institute??? I said that’s where you might have gone and ‘graduated’ from, and I have reason to say that and i will get to it below.
Given the replies I have been getting from you so far, I have no doubt you have two likely problems: you have either comprehension problem, Or you are so protective of LS that whatever we say to you or any Tashi or Dolma, you think we are attacking LS and then you growl back.
You did hear however this line clearly, that ‘we will not swallow whatever our leaders spew just like chinese in the China do’. And also I said I will continue to critique and question LS’s wrongdoing in future as long as it’s not about Bhungoo Amchok and Ho-shyang Baklep. This is what separates democracy and communist China, i also implied that. But there you are, you keep attacking us, generalizing us that exile tibetans are ‘whining like babies, they are lazy, they indulge in pettiness. What the fuk you mean by that? Lobsang Sangay didnt say to press that white stuff on the top of Mt Dhauladhar was cotton to neglect, and i know lot better than you what LS says are to be neglected and what he says are to followed upon.
The kind of unquestioning loyalty you seem to have for LS is reminiscent of CCP cadre’s loyalty to CCP leaders. No they dont ‘whine and complain’ as you said; they just follow whatever Hu Jintao says and question seldom! You have that exact attitude and you try to enforce on us: don’t question LS, ignore him if he makes mistake and be thankful to him for serving us! Dude, guess what, I have a news for you, Thats Your Communist Mentality Talking you prbably picked up while you were in China! Mao Zedong Institute might not exist, but doesnt it sound like you are a product of such school? think!
And then you have the audacity to denigrate us for having “refugee mentality”, and ridicule us for asking Rangzen as if we are selling Tibet.
Is asking LS to be mindful of what he says to press ‘refugee mentality’?
Is asking for Rangzen refugee mentality?
Is demanding “accountability” from our leader “refugee mentality’?
Or did you mean we think ‘govt will solve our all over problem’ you were saying to yourself somewhere above. It’s ironic that you should think that way. You said LS gives you ‘hope’, he ‘inspires’ you blah blah. Now that’s close to thinking “LS will solve our problem”, almost a “refugee mentality” type.
We never believed LS gives us “Hope”nor he ‘inspires”, actually he can do nothing. What we are trying to do is, by keeping him under watch and critiquing him, we are actually “teaching” him how to talk responsibly like a Kalon Tripa of a Nation so he wont let us down at least!
You support LS’s assimilation policy where he’s asking just a place to live and pray, and let China to take care of the rest! Guess what, that’s a ‘refugee mentality’ – you taking refuge in China to take care of you in exchange for a place to live and eat and pray. You fall more towards “refugee mentality”, not us! There may not be a solution for Rangzen, but neither do “middlepath” has, but it’s sticking to what’s rightfully yours, and never letting it go.
Or if you are talking about on economic front, like living off of handout, you stupid have no clue what you are talking about! When our parents fled Tibet, they had nothing other than clothes on their body. Look at the economic status of Tibetans in exile today, they are amongst most successful people in India, Nepal and Bhutan which HH often says He is proud of. What we do get for free is school education till grade 12; for rest of the things we dig our own pocket; we dont have Uncle Sam to send us ‘welfare check’. The progress we have made economically in the last 50 years is a sign of anything but ‘refugee mentality’ and laziness. Go tell your Chinese friends that.
It’s laughable that the way you said your Chinese friend told you Tibetans in exile are lazy, you seemed like take pride in it! I have many chinese friends too, and they also tell me Tibetans from Tibet, like you, are dirty, they dont take shower and are smelly. I take offense, I fight back and warn them to watch their mouth next time! Look at you, i wonder if have even the sense of oneness and think that we Tibetans are same irrespective of where we are frm, India or Tibet. No wonder you did try to make to play “I’m from Tibet, you are from India” card before.
Ok, I’m done with you now. I knew i was playing paino to a cow. I wont now.
SANGAY,
as usual, you are twisting words and avoiding the real questions,
(1) yes, we were born under the china’s rules and went to china’s schools. Because we lived under such repressive system, we treasure the value of democracy and the rule of laws.
(2) we also know democracy comes with responsibility and the government can not solve all problems.
(3) so far, LS is doing good as I have indicated before, and he could not have done any better. In reality, he is the head of small exiled government and it has its limits as we know it.
(4) some of you lived too long on the donations and inji sympathy. that’s why you guys are so pissed off when he mis-spoken some english words in front western audience.
(5) I did not vote for LS and believe in renzeng but I also know my limits. If some of you whining puppy have real practice solutions, put on tables and let’s discuss it. I even can go as far as for low intensity conflict in Tibet if some of whining dogs can lead and have practical suggestions.
(6) as i repeatedly asked before, what else he could have done? what are your solutions?.Beside usual ranzeng mantra and whining, as you have demonstrated, you guys don’t have any suggestions and solutions. it makes people like you a typical refuge who came from one of Indian slums and the advanced Dalit institute.
#169 Wangchukla,I do not have problems with Joe’s criticism.It’s the way it is said.Yes,I would have the same problems with any of my brothers and sisters when said disrespectfully.Why do we have to be disrespectful to criticize some one?Constructive criticism is an excellent way to learn.But Joe’s wasn’t constructive in the way he said it.
I agree when Joe points out those specific words:leave and live.But not in the way he says it.
In fact,I was rather taken aback with our Kalon’s response to the question on Tape during his recent visit to NY.I was myself considering for a comment about it myself.But after so much negative criticism at him,I chose to hold it back.Kalon is a human being after all.These things will take a toll on his job performance.He had this big day coming on the 10th of march.He needs high morale for the day.
Please let me know where you think I should have understood Joe more correctly.
To make it absolutely clear Joe,I never once said you were lying in any thing you have said.Just that you say them rudely.
Really excellent rally today in Madison; tens of thousands of state political protestors were here for a separate rally and a bunch of them were also yelling encouragement to the Tibet rally so it was really something.
Not a single CCP “anti-protestor” in sight, unlike previous years. All those “spontaneously patriotic” PRC citizens magically stayed home today by complete accident. I imagine the real story is that there was a memo to everyone not to attend, and no buses from the Chicago consulate appeared, either. I would be interested to hear if other March 10 rallies were likewise unopposed. Maybe they feel it’s too sensitive at this point?
Oh, and the snow lion flag is flying all day very prominently above the City County building.
Totally agree with Sheila.It was one of a kind Tenth Of March.The weather was great,the crowd was huge,responses were positive,and the Tibetans and the Tibetan friends were totally up to the task.Dane County executive Director Joe Parisi as usual on every 10th of March was there right by the side of his Tibetan friends lending his shoulders in support of the Tibetans;gave a great speech.Governor Scott Walker too sent his message in support of Tibet and the Tibetans.He proclaimed today,the Tenth of March as “TIBET-DAY”,so did County Executive Director Joe Parisi announce the day as “TIBET-DAY”. Senator Herb Khol sent a message in support of the Tibetan cause,so did congress woman Tammy Baldwin.
Right along the Tenth of March Tibetan protest was Union protest recalling Governor Scott Walker from all over the State of Wisconsin who many were supportive of our protest by showing Rangzen/Union feasts.Many applauded “BOYCOTT MADE IN CHINA”,CHINA OUT OF TIBET”,CHINA LIES; TIBETANS DIE”.This kind of exposure is perhaps hard to come by.But we did.It was a huge success.WTA president gave an insightful speech,and RTYC gave a very charged speech.Joe’s speech had me in tears.The day was crazy wonderful.
If you are seeing this Woeser la,you were all at and in the right,left,and center of thoughts and in tears.Americans have not forgotten us.I realized that today.And America’s economy is doing just fine still.
Bodh Rangzen Gyallo !!! and glory to Ameria !!! Down with CCP !!!
Yes. I heard his statement for 10th of March yesterday and it didn’t seem Obamaish at all. The word wishy-washy came to mind when I listened to it.
When he says “Tibetans never had a country” perhaps he is thinking of the few hundred thousands like him who were born in exile? I really hope it was that sort of mistake for all our sakes.
In the Bay Area, the March 10th protest was worth attending because there was call for “Free Tibet” even though the most passionate ones were non Tibetans.
Most of the previous protests I attended in the past few years were disappointing because the once strong easy to hear and easy to chant slogans like “Free Tibet”, “China out of Tibet”, “Out out China out” are turned into weak and watery “Relgious freedom in Tibet”, “Chinese government out of Tibet,” “Shame on Chinese government” etc. Those western educated Chinese students and business people who came to shout us down with aid of drums and cymbals during the Olympic protests are not Chinese government. Neither are they naive babes. They know what’s happening to Tibet and don’t care.
So let’s not be jabchungs-without-backbones and ask for our rights without shame and fear. At least we are not having to give up our lives here in the free world.
dawala, you are right. its time to take back our voices and demand whats rightfully ours. we have so normalised this kind of wishy washy thinking on tibet issue that its almost become political incorrect to demand for a free tibet.
I am sorry to refute to the statement by you sir, jamyang la ‘… delibrately’. I have watched the whole video of ‘Katri la’ and in my perception when he said ‘ we tibetans never had a country…’ he meant to say that those of us who were born in exile have never had the feelings of how it is to have a country as we are born on foriegn lands and never seen our country, so katri la might have meant that it is difficult to share the feelings of how it is to be a prime minister without a country. However, the phrase ‘never had a country ‘ could be understood in its literal sense as you have mentioned above. Katri lobsang Sangay la also should be careful with each and every word he speaks in near future. And we the Tibetans should cooperate with our elected leaders and should give constructive criticism for the benefit of our common cause for a FREE TIBET.
KT’s office published a clarification on the “country” statement:
http://sites.google.com/site/tibetanpoliticalreview/articles/clarificationonarecentstatementbykalontripatoagermannewspaperinitaly
I appreciate Katri Lobsang Sangay’s clarification on the subject. I believe it is a slip of the tongue, unintentional, and said without ulterior motives. I am sure such feedbacks will only help him further improve his public presence and represent us better in the future.
Now I want to see how JYNB and his rengzen crowds write about this family’s story, this is not just their story, but this is our story, a story of all Tibetans,perhaps a story of all humanity, a mother takes her son and daughter to home. they are already on the way to Tibet. Except your whining rengzen crowds, both Tibetans inside and outside of Tibet, are talking about this story. When are you guys going to talk and write about it?
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=31012&article=Exile+family+to+embark+on+peace+march+to+Tibet&t=1&c=1
Dear JN,
With due respect, I disagree 100% with your attempt to disgrace our PM by catching part of his statement. This is not a behavior of a renowned activist and an intellectual.
First, the question was ” How do you feel…” and the answer should be viewed from that context only, a personal feeling. He may have framed the answer awkwardly.
A fair accusation should be on the idea or the motivation of the whole statement, not to a part of it. He also stated ” It was suffocating without freedom..”
It is very clear that his meaning was, his generation never experienced being in a free country, hence is not able to answer the question, ” how it feels to be a PM of a stateless country ” He has no reference to gauge his feeling which is very true.
In all our conversations we often make ambiguous statements but we don’t react to the words, we react to the meanings. When there is such a statement we choose our interpretations often to suit our objectives.
JN, I urge you to withdraw this indirect accusation and remove from this blog.
We should rather attack his policies, and make our demands clear for an active and inspirational leadership. Wake him up when he slips into old ways of inaction and rigid bureaucracy.
Thanks
Dokpa
while Tibetan blogosphere are filled with their stories and his writings, there are almost no mentions of their march and his writing in English or in other languages.
What is happing here?
Dear Tibetans,
Can anyone show some light on this statement ?? I don’t understand how such a wild statement passed without opposition.
“Kalon Tripa Professor Samdong Rimpoche, who declared on March 13, 2009 that the “Tibet Issue is the Internal Affair of the People’s Republic of China?” ………..JN
Dokpa
A perfect example of making a mountain out of a molehill! I suppose our Kalon Tripa will be more careful with his choice of words next time because whatever he says is going to be scrutinized very carefully, and possibly misconstrued. It looks like we can’t stop talking about his Harvard degree, be it his supporters or detractors. Why does it have to be the fulcrum of the argument? Grow out of it, will you? Talk about his policy, tell us your opinion about his policy, what you think could be improved upon but stop labeling people as his supporters or detractors; you must have an ulterior motive for doing that. Otherwise why would you drag someone to the middle?
Whenever a long-standing policy of the government needs changing, there are four typical and main steps in the public policy process: 1 Identifying a problem, 2 Formulating a policy, 3 Implementing the policy change, and 4 Evaluating the result.
It seems TYC has done some work on process # 1, but this is the beginning of the cycle and without a through research, testing, debugging, evaluation, pre-implementation test run, again debugging and may be a final evaluation. After these steps of process TYC should come out with policy documentation, few independent nations’ support and then request Kashag, TPiE, CTA and Tibetan people including HH Dalai Lama for a policy change.
I think, this is the correct, sustainable, educated, error free and with least consequence way to change any long-standing policy of the CTA.
I personally think that our katri didn’t mean to say that Tibet didn’t exist as a separate nation before, even though his actual words clearly say it. To me it sounded more of a bit carelessness in wording and also the possibilities of generating misunderstanding in others’ mind. I have full confidence in our katri that he won’t let us down by saying such thing to really mean it. So let’s look forward to having our katri speak more confidently and carefully in the future interviews.
She is right:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/09/tibetan-writer-self-immolations-end
It’s really hard to know if she’s under pressure to say that. I have no doubt that every single one of us would prefer that no one else dies, whether by self-immolation or Chinese gun.
However, the part of her letter where she encourages “monks, the elderly, intellectuals, officials, and the masses” to help worries me. In fact, if I were her, I might add that sentence specifically to signal to my readers that someone else has a hand in this particular message. I could be completely wrong, but this is what went through my mind when I read this particular passage.
Only two things seem certain to me: 1) the Chinese government is absolutely desperate to stop these self-immolation protests and 2) it seems doubtful they will be able to stop them.
Sheila,
I also found that sentence jarring. It didn’t quite fit with the rest of the piece. However, Woeser la makes a great effort to reach out to Chinese readers so maybe it was simply an attempt to resonate with the Chinese mainstream.
If the Chinese government really is desperate to end the self-immolations, its institutional learning disability is currently providing the biggest obstacle to achieving that goal. The Chinese government certainly won’t be able to stop the self-immolations by increasing the oppression of the Tibetan people, which is its current approach.
The Chinese government also needs to stop deluding itself that these actions are being organized by “outside forces.” (Of course, that claim might be made simply for propaganda purposes.)
In reality, the self-immolations are a series of individual actions. Those who have made the decision more recently have followed the examples of those who made the decision earlier.
Two things could contribute to ending the self-immolations:
1. The Chinese easing up on the “strike hard” campaigns, patriotic re-education, distribution of posters of the “four generations”, slander of those who have self-immolated and so on.
2. People within Tibet – especially eastern Kham – finding new ways to protest that the Chinese cannot manage by massive numbers of security forces on the streets, combined with media blackouts.
Of course Woeser is right. Nobody in their right mind wants the self-immolations to continue. The problem is what else can they do to truly make the other Tibetans inside Tibet and the exile Tibetans, the outside world and the most of all the Chinese govt to understand their grievances? That they are serious about the appalling conditions of Tibetans inside Tibet. If you protest in the street, you will end up in prison, suffer years of torture and suffering and probably even die. In the meantime, they are slowly marginalized and put to the backburner of the society in every conceivable way possible while the Han Chinese pour inside Tibet with abandon and the overt encouragement of the central government. What are the alternatives available for them to voice their protest and their grievances when the whole structure is designed to benefit the Han Chinese? They are between a rock and a hard place. Every move they make is dire and action and non-action is equally detrimental to them.
I wish the self-immolations would stop but I have no alternatives to offer them. This frustration is making me go crazy in my mind. I wish it will all stop but I understand why they are doing it and I will continue to make sure their sacrifices are not in vain by trying to find ways to bring it to the attention of anyone I know, the media, and also the political parties in my area.
Billk is right. Chinese govt have to make a positive move here instead of using draconian measures to suppress the flames. It also behooves the western nations to put pressure on China to relieve the tension inside Tibet and demand a fact finding delegation be sent inside Tibet. Only such actions will stop such self-immolations. I think the Tibetans in Tibet had upto here with Tibetan exile govt, International communities and the Chinese govt.
Here’s one thing China can start doing today, if they have any good will towards Tibetans at all:
Take away just some of the huge military presence from Kham and send them on a humanitarian mission to Golok, where people are currently facing starvation due to the harsh winter. China likes to brag about how modern its military is. Modern, western militaries have a dual role of defence and disaster relief. Why not theirs too?
“if they have any good will towards Tibetans at all”. Do you think colonialists have in our case and all before elsewhere really good will towards tibs? that they perceive tibetans as people they should care about?
It seems to me they(ccp) perceive tibetans and ouighours as objects in their scheme. Like a psychopath perceive other people in his plans. Why would they sterilize tibetan women without yet children??
And about the han population itself, have you not witnessed the growing hatred by chinese mobs against tibetans, orchastred by ccp?
Billyk, I agree with you, but unfortunately Chinese policy towards Tibetans has always been “Our Way or No Way”, and “no way” here means kill them, obliterate them, get them out of the way whatever means available if they refuse to follow. I dont think this policy will ever change no matter what Tibetans do, including self-immolating. Because Chinese know the day this policy changes, that day will be the beginning of end of Chinese rule in Tibet!
Backwards, backwards, backwards. Remember how we said in 2008 that this “crackdown” was a sign of the CCP propelling China and Tibet backward in time. Look at the atmosphere now. Where are we…some time in the 1970s? Who’s going to stop it from turning into the horrific ’60s, or is it already there?
Look at China itself – internet, newspapers, authors, artists, all being shut down at an increasing rate. We always wonder how Hitler could have been allowed to do what he did, yet here we are, the world seemingly frozen in the position of watching it happen.
Since a clear official statement has been made on this matter, the issue is now closed. I request our web-chowkidar not to allow any more comments. JN
“The Kalon Tripa and his office would like to clarify a recent statement made by the Kalon Tripa to a small German newspaper (stol.it) in Northern Italy
When asked “What is it like being a Prime Minister without a country?” the Kalon Tripa responded “I can’t say for sure because Tibetans we never had a country.”
The above remark could be misunderstood and misinterpreted. Therefore, we would like to clarify that the Kalon Tripa was actually responding in the context of the stateless position of Tibetans in exile and particularly his own position as a Tibetan in India. Tibetans of his generation, born and raised in exile, have yet to experience living in a place they can call their country. Dr. Sangay has done hundreds of interviews since assuming the post of Kalon Tripa and his stand has always been and continues to be that Tibet was historically an independent nation and it is presently under occupation.
We regret any misunderstanding the statement may have caused, and hope this clarification addresses the matter.”
Sangay la
Agree totally.
Demanding that China do something about the current situation in Golok is a reasonable demand. However, it is not a demand that any reasonable person would expect China to actually act on, given its track record.
A solution to stop the “fire protest”
The PRC government must issue an open notice, saying that the Dalai Lama is free to visit any part of his native regions in China, provided that he is entitled to have all the necessary securities.
The international community can play a vital role to achieve this.
A visit by the Dalai Lama to his native land is in no way going to prove a means to crumble the Beijing regime. It is not going to pose any threat; rather it would help the regime to become cleaner (in the international scenario) and its concerned policy more transparent.
The “fire protest” is a worrisome social issue at the national level, and the government has absolute responsibility not to neglect it by means of blame game.
Therefore, it is vital that the regime ponder over this matter before it is too late.
Jamyang Norbu la,
I think Web-Chowkidar is on leave of absent (no call no show) to duty.
“Since a clear official statement has been made on this matter, the issue is now closed. I request our web-chowkidar not to allow any more comments. JN”.
@Tibetfortibetan…I was out of town so I couldn´t read this or answer ! Glad you agree with what I have to say and I understand that someone like you is disturbed with how I say it !But let´s call things what they are coz so much time has been lost sucking up to people who don´t give a monkey´s ass what happens inside Tibet !
As the Kalon Tripa is busy flying around the world holding talks and collecting useless medals from people that actually FOUGHT for their country´s freedom, the chinese terror and the Tibet´s suffering continues.
Lobsang Sangay talks more about himself than about Tibet…which I find highly embarrassing.
When I heard that he had held a talk just two blocks from the hunger strikers but didn´t visit them I was shocked !
I don´t even dislike the man coz, unlike Tibetans, I grew up in a full blown democracy and expect NOTHING from any politician !
But as a Tibetan human he could have visited the hunger strikers. Actually it would have been his duty as Kalon Tripa !
So it looks as if the man himself has not decided what and who he is !
But to leave on a lighter note I heard one joke and I am sure we can all have a laugh about it no matter who or what we believe in !
“His parents should have sold him and sent the cow to school !”
Hope no one is offended and if you are just watch western TV and you will hear what the politicians of the free world have to take…!
To gain respect you have to respect others first and that is definitely one of LS´s major weaknesses !
Now I don´t agree at all with Woeser la´s statement concerning the self immolations but I still respect her. At least Woeser la has respected every single one of them and not left anyone out !
Dear Puron Dorje la,
Web chowkidar was in New York for the Rangzen Roundtable. He ought to be home today or tomorrow. I will email him to end the discussion.
Joe, you are very bad man.
I was laughing my ass off when I read, “His parents should have sold him and sent the cow to school !”
if LS saw what you have said, I think he will never use this cow thing again. lol
Joe,I have to admit,your joke got me laughing.That’s funny.
I think we have said enough on the subject.So let’s put it to rest.We each wanted to make points.Some agreed.Some disagreed.And that’s fine.You are the way you are based on your cultural bringing up.I am the way I am based on my bringing up.To each her/his own.Happy???:) Have a nice day.
Tibet for TIbetans: That last post had way too many full stops. It reminded me of a crackhead with his half finished sentences and jerky bodily movements. No offense to your post but just a tiny little joke on the appearance alone.
Joe la, somewhere out there, there is a cow tearing up over your kind words.