I came across this YouTube video yesterday morning that left me depressed and angry for the rest of the day. An inji nun, a Shugden follower, confronts His Holiness in a hotel lobby in San Francisco and keeps up a litany of insulting comments: “Stop lying Dalai Lama”, “Religious freedom for everyone”, “Stop lying”, “Dalai Lama you must stop lying.” and so on. His Holiness attempts to argue with her but she keeps up her slogans till His Holiness finally leaves. The video is just 38 seconds but it feels much longer, painfully longer.
About ten years ago I wrote a two essays on Tibetan superstitions and oracle cults where I touched on the Shugden controversy. An excerpt:
Of course, people must be allowed their beliefs no matter how ridiculous or wrong we may perceive them. I believe people have the right to worship Shugden or any other deity they want, while the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader certainly has the right to object to this on theological grounds and ask people to refrain from such practices. But that is not the problem. The trouble is that the Tibetan government has been inducted to implement the Dalai Lama’s proscription of Shugden worship. The Tibetan government claims it has not issued any orders or appeals to people to harass or fight Shugden worshippers. Yet it has produced and distributed literature and videos demonizing Shugden worshippers.
But this latest confrontation with His Holiness by Shugden followers is completely unacceptable. The whole thing (camera and all) appears to have been a deliberate set-up to embarrass His Holiness. The nun didn’t even try to have a discussion with His Holiness. She just repeated slogans. The same slogans that other Western Shugden followers outside the hotel were chanting and which they had printed on their placards and banners.
Far be it for me to say that you can’t disagree with His Holiness. I have been an open and vociferous critic of the Dalai Lama on the issue of Tibetan independence for a few decades now, but I have always made sure that nothing I wrote could be used as ammunition against him or the cause. I have also consistently drawn the line at being deliberately disrespectful, and attempting to humiliate His Holiness publicly as happened at San Francisco goes way beyond that line. The behavior of the Western Shugden followers, at the very least, reveals an insensitivity to the hopes and dreams of those Tibetans suffering under Chinese rule who yearn for the day when the Dalai Lama will return to an independent homeland.
But on reflection I could not sustain my anger at the Western Shugden followers, who are, after all, not Tibetans and don’t share our values, and who at least came out openly (and peacefully) to express their grievances. But where on earth were our very own ministers and officials who always somehow manage to be alongside his Holiness in all his travels (and in every accompanying photograph and video). Where were they? Why didn’t one or two of them at least stand before the nun and tell her to leave, or better yet hustle her out gently. I remember seeing a video of a previous such incident where a Tibetan official, Kalon Tashi Wangdi, came out before a large crowd of Shugden protesters and talked calmly to them providing a kind of barrier between them and His Holiness. Why didn’t at least one official come between His Holiness and this small nun who seemed rather nervous and scared herself.
Or more to the point, what security arrangements were there in place to ensure His Holiness’s safety? We all know that over the last decade Western Shugden supporters have picketed his Holiness’s talks and appearances in the West. It was no secret that this time around they would do the same on his California visit. So why weren’t adequate precautions taken. I have written on a number of occasions that Dharamshala should be extremely careful in vetting visitors to the Dalai Lama, not only to ensure His Holiness’s physical safety but also to ensure that nothing untoward, unseemly or embarrassing could happen. One speculation I picked up over the exile grapevine was that the nun managed to get access to His Holiness because she was an inji, a Westerner, it being a given that Tibetans have a harder time getting access His Holiness than a Westerner does.
These day Chinese visitors from the PRC are reportedly coming in droves to Dharamshala and seem to have absolutely no difficulty in gaining admittance to His Holiness. Knowing how the system operates in China, I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that a considerable percentage of these visitors will have some connection to Chinese intelligence and security agencies.
So in the specific instance of San Francisco, why the oversight, the negligence? I have been given to understand there has been a major power struggle in the Tibetan political world over control and management of the Dalai Lama’s visits abroad, especially those to the United States. Hence it appears that the energy and acumen of our concerned officials were focused more on this turf battle and less on security preparations for His Holiness’s trip.
As annoyed as most Tibetan have been with the slogan-chanting nun and the other Western Shugden followers, it would be for the best if we forget all about them. In fact I think it might be advisable for Dharamshala to reach some kind of minimal understanding with Shugden followers regarding their behavior during His Holiness’s visits to the West, even if for the moment we are unable to resolve the fundamental aspects of the schism. Otherwise I can quite easily see things getting out of hand, and angry exile-Tibetans battling it out with Shugden followers on the streets of New York or London, doing irreparable damage to our cause and to His Holiness’s international reputation.
And we should never forget that we have a far more frightening and sinister enemy poised to do ultimate harm to His Holiness’s life and legacy. This enemy has murdered hundreds of lamas, slaughtered many thousands of Buddhist monks, and “disappeared” the child Panchen Lama; and as I mentioned earlier, it has been sending a stream of its agents to our exile-capital for purposes that are at the very least, disquieting. How seriously prepared are we to deal with that?
It doesn’t bear thinking.
100% SPOT ON !!!!! As always !
I second to Joe Hamilton despite our past differences. Tibetan government and organization should not do a witch-hunting on the pretext of showing faith and loyalty to His Holiness. No matter how good the motivation is, the method is totally wrong! It best be left as his holiness own’s statement, “It is my duty to advice about good and bad the deity in dispute, but it is upto individuals to follow or not, its their total freedom”. Also shugden followers not necessarily have to attend the teaching of His Holiness, but attend our marches. Nobody will question what deity one believes in! Stop following some of the crooks like Gangchen Lama who is said to have connection to Beijing. Only few people get material prosperity, the rest of the followers are just used and get nothing. Nothing in this life, in next life, who knows? So lets deal with this life first!
Again, great job for this done article…..hopefully I am not cersored!
ng
“Hence it appears that the energy and acumen of our concerned officials were focused more on this turf battle and less on security preparations for His Holiness’s trip.” I think the single sentence sums up the whole backstage scenario of those with authority, those lip-servers, those unavailable when so needed, those parrots. Thanks for the learning one again.
There are a lot of absolutely insane Injees.
What pisses me off more than anything that if an Injee is nyurmba and harasses His Holiness’ secretary, they are given an audience.
One Injee lady I lived next to would scream at random people on the street in McLeod, she would kind one day and be rageful the next. She harassed and harassed His Holiness’ secretary and got a PRIVATE audience with him. She then told me all about how she got an audience and showed me the photos.
The people around his Holiness are clueless about so much. They need to learn from people who have worked to protect world leaders. They also need to work on building his image and doing marketing campaigns to promote Tibet’s cause!
With regard to the Shugden. There is a Shugden video on youtube.com that addresses how some Tibetan Shugden followers have been violently dealt with by followers of His Holiness in Majnu Tilla. Some of these Injees have probably seen this video. Some have probably gotten access to the propaganda put out by a certain red government and believed that His Holiness is behind all of the violence of his people which is nonsense.
Remember that in Ari, we have freedom of speech and when His Holiness comes to town, he is protected by the FBI but they can’t use the same tactics as the Tibetan bodyguards do in McLeod. If people are protesting peacefully and make no threat of violence, the guards can push through the protesters, but that is it.
The thing is, that Injee nun just makes us all look like loonies and deepens the distrust between Tibetans and Injees. There is so much our two cultures can learn from each other. It takes brave, caring, and tolerant people from both sides to keep things good.
I promise, we aren’t all wack jobs.
This whole incidence calls for limiting easy access of foreigners including Westerners and Gami to HH.
They seems to have such an easy access as they talk and shake hands with HHDL while there so many Tibetan elders who just wish to get “Cha Wang” find its almost impossible.
My first reaction on the seeing the video was, “How did she reach this close to HH?” Is this a security lapse?
Thanks Jamyang la for writing this.
Tenam
Interesting point. I’ve always wondered about that, how some leaders are silenced, assassinated or more accurately murdered & others are not by powers that be. Looking at the current events, the 14th Dalai Lama’s tour on promotion of the Middle-
Way policy under the communist rule with the support of the Global elites blessing, I think he’s fairly safe, regardless of Chinese spies.
Another interesting point is the timing of his tour with the TYC Grass-Roots movement long march from Dharamshala to New Dheli for Tibetan Freedom. Due to H.H. star-like popularity & media attention, it appears to over-shadow & over-look our true struggle for Freedom. Is it a coincidence? 126 self-immolations didn’t sacrifice for MW & China has rejected continuously again & again. What’s the deal?
http://www.asianage.com/ideas/new-tibetan-leader-threat-india-950
Got to red this article.
Yes, as an afterthought after my last comment, even if His Holiness didn’t sound that stirred to the point of breathing at thin air, it sounded bit above normal thickness. I just, though inexperienced one, think from the point of the Inji nun’s phlegmatic way of questioning and persistence such one should be dealt with more care like, even if I may sound absurd, giving open or free time on the sidelines. As those Western followers of the deity must be educated and peaceful no matter what their true motives could be, how ill-driven they are by our own lamas’ tryst with quasi-religious rights, more open and matter-of-fact approaches or platforms should be created like debate or any other means learning and resolving. They shouldn’t be shunned but approached sincerely. If His Holiness can’t participate in such programs, his representatives can to discuss the matters in clear light–how spiritually and politically concerned its prohibition against drastic repercussions to Tibet’s integrity. This is a whole lot complex issue that needs to be handled rationally,especially headed by CTA. How far they at CTA know about it? Why it’s rare to find real concerned CTA officials who stand firmly by His Holiness in this issue? So the case of ‘Is Dalai Lama Safe?’
It is a very sad situation. There is so much suffering out there. I think it’s important for me as a Canadian when I try and understand videos like this one to remember how different life in America is. Religion is such a part of class and the way people are ‘understood’ and ‘categorized’ and as such fundamentalism has grown rampant. This unfortunate person seems to have substituted the Christian fundamentalism she grew up with with rabid misinterpretations of Shugden worship that she really clings to and rails about. I feel particularly sad because it involved so much disrespect to HH, but I would be sad at this kind of angry expression of bigotry whoever it was aimed at.
Religion and religious factions have always weakened Tibet as a nation. The other day I saw a video of 10th Panchen Lama’s visit to China. I don’t know the significance of the visit, but on the back of my mind I sense the visit could be a design by Chinese leaders to create friction among dharma leaders. My point is we must separate religion from politics. While there is absolute religious freedom to practice spirituality, it must not be tied to political authority which can be an extra source of divisive elements in the society as well as political administration.
I have lived 25 years in India and 25 years in the West.
I have seen several western followers of shugden demonstrate. unfortunately majority of these western shugdhen followers are psychologically sick people and on top of that ex followers of strange SECTs that exist in the west. so obviously they do strange things having joined the tibetan sect shugden. I think westerners should stop mingling in tibetan religious politics……bringing bad influences from their past experiences…..
Jamyang la, thank you for giving life to this issue. I was appalled to see the video. We Tibetans need to demand better security for his Holiness so that these crazy people don’t gain that easy access to Kundun. Long live Kundun and may no evil get close to him.
Unlike all other traditions of Tibet, Shugden followers promote sectarianism and discrimination against non Shugdens followers. They went as far as to kill and disrobe monks in Tibet(Pre Occupation) to openly support Chinese Government. The problem is not just some followers action but the practice it self is very sectarian. If we are not careful it will be the caused big division in our otherwise peaceful Buddhist world.
It is little wonder that chinese students have better access his holiness than tyc.
Yes, from what His Holiness tried to explain in English to the nun (hidden from camera)his stress was on it isn’t the question of ‘religious freedom’ that the nun’s shaky voice carried on importunately. His Holiness meant it is about worshiping ‘a spirit’, rather pagan one eviscerated of Buddha’s core teachings of Compassion and Wisdom. That’s the case. If even a Westerner could be hypnotized that far to the point of blind judgement, then how our die-hard ones can let go of their more abstract dreamy myths of protection plus unimaginable fear for betrayal? And the recruitment into groups by politicizing it into a cause, the work of a sheer different motive rather than religious rights. We have seen it. So the funding by obscure source that isn’t obscure at all. It is the opportunist’s awaited nick of time to undermine our integrity. Even if it’s weak, it has been keeping up by initiating head by head through promised benefits, especially huge pecuniary gift. Here I mean to deal with such Westerners to let them see the complex picture clearer and fuller than what they have been let see. They, as the victims, tend to stick to the single blind idea only. They don’t care both about our spiritual and political issues in broader sense or with unbiased intuitions. That’s so sad.
Kelsang aukatsang first responsibiliies is a big flop. Is he the one who is representative of US.
Power struggling inside tibetan who to reach Obama administration and congress is not that important. The most important work among tibetan officials is to protect HHDL security.
I didnt hear no shaky voice from the nun. she way too calm and controlled -and had one and only one purpose when she ambushed.just want to show that she is the voice of reason while calling HHDL liar and provoke HHDL and make HHDL look bad. she was not there to discuss or debate the issue of spirit worship vs spirituality. We all tibetans know HHDL is quick temper and just say it like it is. so she know that and to make HHDL look bad. if she cares really then go and help IF there are any poor diety worshipper who is not getting medical service or something like that as they claim. This ani is free to worship whatever she wants so why she bothering in our matters?
JN la,You always speak out right concerns and I thank you for that,
Yes, what were His Holiness’s body guards and official traveling with His Holiness were doing letting this crazy nun protester so close inches away from our precious leader? Security people and officials could have barricaded themselves between His Holiness and her ! Thanks God what if that paper she was carrying was a poison ?! very dangers crazy people so close to His Holiness. Next time security is most priority before give any close up audience ….at least private Secretary to His Holiness said to the crazy woman,” you stop lying”….Please next time better security!!!! I agree with Karze la too
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U guys r a bunch of retards if u actually believe what u’ re saying. Shugden was not an issue before the 70,s and is not even an official oracle of the govt. if shugden is spirit worship and should be stopped then so should nechung palden lhamu Thinley gyalpo Setra and the thousands and thousands of spirits that are worshipped by tibetan Buddhism. None of this existed during Buddha!! No one just worships shugden alone. It is worshipped along with the others. Another thing I find really odd is this whole secular bs. The most important thing in any community is to respect what the other follows and coexist. A Hindu will not believe in the ideologies of a Muslim or a Christian. Actually even within one religion for instance a catholic will not follow the ideologies of a Protestant though Christ is in both. So does that make them secular. Tibetans who are nyingma Kargyu Sakya or geluk follow their own. There should be respect. I have not seen a nyingma gonpa with je tsonkapa’s statue. Y? And it’s absolutely ok. They have their own. If u guys don’t see the harm the tib govt has done then u guys r seriously retarded. Who asks to sign and state that u don’t worship this god and that god. The last time I checked voting was for politics. And sadly it comes from the top. The head gets the praise and the blame. If ure telling me that all geluk masters of old were wrong starting with panchen rinpoche pabhonka Trijang rinpoche zemey ling zong. If I’m not wrong every geluk lama while these lamas were alive have claimed to be their guru. So if they were wrong then everyone was wrong then geluk sect is wrong and the govt that has been under the geluk sect for the last 300 years is wrong.
I’m pretty sure half of us won’t know how to differentiate between the spirits and most of us consider this spirit bad just becoz his holiness said so! Isn’t that exactly what Buddha was against. Blind faith just becoz the Dalai Lama said so. Who has actually done some good research on it before saying anything for or against this spirit. Say it is a bad spirit then what as laymen can we bloody hell do to stop it. I thought in the olden days the high lamas and dharma protectors did their tantra to wipe it out. So where are all the powerful oracles to stop this bad spirit. Guru rinpoche our founder is worshipped coz he controlled all evil spirits and tamed them and made them protectors of the dharma.
Now just in case this shugden is a good spirit and an enlightened bodhisattva I feel really sad for all the thousands of tib peeps who have said something negative about this spirit ..
Correct me if I’m wrong, historically speaking chushi gangdruk lead by andrutsang gonpo Tashi looked to this evil spirit while fighting for our country. It is believed that there was a tenor heading the army wherever they went with a thanka of this evil spirit. ( I could be wrong). And I believe the only peeps that did fight for our freedom are those brave peeps from the four rivers and six ranges.
Trijang rinpoche the junior tutor to the Dalai Lama and one of the greatest scholars of his time did look and practice this evil spirit as well. So the next time u guys sing the national anthem remember who wrote it a guru and a follower of shugden. So maybe the tib govt should come up with a new national anthem or actually even better just sing the Chinese anthem as they don’t want freedom. So maybe just maybe this evil spirit is for freedom…. ? Hmmm.
It is really sad when u go into a gonpa or a store in south India and u see a big sign outside “shugden worshipped not allowed” for shopping or for medicine or care or bare necessities. In a free democratic country. Being a shugden worshipper does not mean that’s it. Same as nechung worshipper or Thinley gyalpo worshipper or etc. too much of “peley shaya” has been done. Has anyone heard the stuff that comes out of samdhong or some of the ministers mouth. Reminds me of the sign that were in buses in old South Africa or old America. Time to wake up and focus on the main issue. Freedom for all Tibetans regardless of sect, religion, class, sex, creed. In a free tibet envisioned by our ancestors who have given up their life fighting for our freedom.
? @20
all those things you talk about are very complex and not so simple to explain. people who know will know. those who don’t hopefully one day will see clearly.until then its kalyug as usual.
btw, are you mean to say that what the inji ani did is right? no matter what your disagreement with HHDL is, if you as a tibetan support this kind of behaviour from some towards our leader then what are you? this inji woman lives in a free country free to worship any goddamn being so what right has she to harrass HHDL who owes her nothing by way of explanation.
And dont call others retard. have some gratitude for this platform.
a-Yo, Differences in religious beliefs & factions are nothing but distractions, to our main issue here is Tibetan Freedom. Obama’s (global elites) support for middle-way policy is re-affirmed, validated & co-signed the 14th Dalai Lama stance, that Tibet doesn’t want to be Free (Independence) but be part of communist China is what should be concerned & talking about. Y’all wake the f**k-up!
Now that is the exact stance that the govt has. When u cant explain they give an answer of complexities. I don’t agree with the stance that our leader has. I don’t believe in living under the Chinese govt so I believe the approach is wrong. So does that make me a non believer then so be it. I love my parents and consider them the closest thing to god( spirit, almighty, Buddha etc) but I don’t agree with everything and I voice my opinion. My parents don’t ostracize me or throw me out just because I don’t believe everything they say or practice everything they do. So Let me understand this complexity that u talk about. If its the approach that the tib govt has then china has and is always asking tibs and the Chinese to come back. Tibs in china have that kind of freedom already. I don’t think tib freedom lies with one person, it lies with every individual who considers himself tibetan. I believe in dialogue and debates and I don’t see any wether its religion or the issue of tibetan freedom when it comes to the tibetan govt. so please enlighten us laymen in regards to these so called complexities. As far as the inji ani is concerned a 36 sec clip is not enough and I don’t know her history enough to comment on it. As far as his holiness is concerned I believe he does need to clarify and explain to the tib peeps and the govt that religion aside shugden peeps should not be treated any different then regular tibetan so as not to create any more rift and problems within our already numerous divided peeps. After all even if its spirit worship the constitution of the free world does allow them the right to practice it. This does create a negative impact on tibetan Buddhism, his holiness and our cause and if u don’t see this simple aspect in all your complexity then I m truly sorry! Free tibet!!
Kelsang Aukutsang our Rep. is a big flop. he is L Sangay’s right nuts. They were college drinking buddies in Delhi and he is not the right person for this job like Mr self promoter Harvard. Read the article in Asian Age.
http://www.asianage.com/ideas/new-tibetan-leader-threat-india-950
Some good points made, Tenpa only said one good thing, “don’t call people retards.”
Ok my opinion on how His Holiness can play it safer.(all things considering)
It would have been ideal if CTA could distant itself from the Shugden controversy thereby isolating the controversy within the domain of Religion. Alas, that choice was removed by the Dalai Lama himself when he involved CTA in persecuting, and discriminating against poor Tibetan shugden devotees in India, ostracising them from the exile community, denying them entrance into Tibetan schools, monasteries, shops, medical care, etc.
His Holiness and CTA must stop the witch hunt of poor Dolgyal worshipers in exile. Come on, who cares what they believe in,its all made up anyway and most Tibetans are weaned off it already you would think, so the concession would be so small, like welcoming Tibetan atheists into the fold.
His Holiness should also put an end to making indefensible claims like “evil” spirits and rangzen proponents hurting his holiness’s health or shortening his life span, the sceptical side of us recoil at hearing such irrationality because an objective person is compelled to see this for what it is; political intimidation.
On another front, it seems to me, that a part of His Holiness’s appeal, while circumambulating the globe is his remarkable accessibility to the public at large, unlike the Pope protected and restricted in his bullet proof popemobile, kundun’s style or mannerism is to take some risk, by freely mingling and engaging with random strangers be it in a hotel lobby or at an airport terminal. Restrict that and you lose a good chunk of soft power politicking, which, more often than not, induces goodwill from people of all nations.
Ofcourse something needs to be done about this rear guard action taken by the Shugden cult. They are well organized, well financed, and mayhaps even serve as a proxy for China.
Anyway, the problem is not likely to go away, the inji shugden worshippers seem very determined, and worse, they do have some valid points concerning the heavy-handedness of Dharamsala in this regard. If even a minimal modus vivendi could be reached between gaden phodrang and the cult, say, if His Holiness were to state sincerely and publicly that Tibetan shugden practitioners in exile will be allowed full religious freedom and actually follow though with it, such generosity might save His Holiness from future embarrassment and bad press for Tibet. Then we will also discover whether the Western Shugden Orgs are really being sincere when they claim that they are merely defending the rights of marginalized shugden worshipping Tibetans in Exile.
As a Westerner Buddhist and former Shugden follower, an ex-protester against the Dalai Lama (1996-98), I can only come to conclusion that we Westerners should leave this issue to Tibetans. You have to sort it out and to find a way to settle with it.
Sadly the controversial founder of the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT), Kelsang Gyatso, just abuses his devotees to throw them into his personal fight against the Dalai Lama “To stop this evil action, as the representative of the Western Shugden Society, I personally will organize demonstrations against the Dalai Lama directly.” Note what he says: “against the Dalai Lama” so it is not about religious freedom but his anger.
Many Westerners, of course including me, are stupid enough to have allowed Tibetans to involve us in this cultural clan-based battle.
The NKT has harmed a lot of Westerners but I assume with the death of their leader (who is now something around 84 or so) these protests will stop because his followers are not forced and manipulated by him anymore to participate in the protests.
I made a summery of the background of the protesters here on my blog:
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/02/27/kelsangs-monks-and-nuns-protest-accusing-the-dalai-lama-of-religious-persecution-and-human-rights-abuses/ its mainly meant for Westerners who are newly confronted with this topic but maybe also some Tibetans find it useful.
thanks Jamyang Norbu la. Pls must read JN la article this. Why no secure to HH the Dalai Lama. Ari Dhoncho kaldor la, you must read this article and next time be careful!
Tenpel:
Thank you for offering your inside information. It is very sad how these Lamas and Geshes manipulate their naive disciples. They preach one thing and do another. It amazes me to see you how much false ego they have. Compare to them, efforts of many ordinary, every day people are much more worthy of our respect.
Thanks again for your contribution.
Any religious leader may ban or support whatever religious practices they wish. The problems arise when access to basic human necessities and government services are tied to what people practice or believe. ID cards, travel documents, signs outside of hospitals and shops saying that Shugdens and those that associate with Shugdens are not welcome.
Just because the Dalai Lama said so, its suddenly ok to enforce such segregation and participate in vigilantism against fellow sentient beings? This is not the Lamrim. This is not seven-fold cause and effect of the compassion teachings. If the Dalai Lama has no one around him who will speak honestly about the consequences of his words on the ground in Tibet in exile, how will he learn of the horrific persecution being performed in his name? I participate in the demonstrations out of compassion for all the beings involved, including His Holiness, and with love in my heart. So does the nun you see in the video.
Differences in religious beliefs cannot be dissolved by proclamations from on high or by simply announcing that one lineage or belief system is not longer considered a “religious” and so its practitioners are unworthy of humane treatment or freedom of choice. Best wishes and many prayers that all beings can live peacefully together with respect and acceptance of eachother’s lineages and beliefs very soon.
P.S. Ignorance is the only evil and delusions (including anger) the only enemy of living beings. We are not each other’s enemies.
I find it actually unlogical for the big concern here for The “hurting the feeling of Kundun”, and worry too much for this incident.
what about the the everyday Tibetan abused and killed by Chinese??? did the concerner even know that there is Tibetan today commit suicide after Chinese arrest him?????!!!
The big question now, WHY westerner could easily meet Kundun while many Tibetan try hard but can’t??? the worst thing, is even the CHINESE, which is our main enemy, CAN EASILY meet Kundun!!!!!
I think this is MORE about Kundun policy of middle way, which MEANS, accept to humiliate Tibetans, but the Non-Tibetan like westerner and Chinese, are OUR MASTERS!!!!!
His holiness said “Mao, the great revolutionary”!!!!
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=34618&article=Dalai+Lama+urges+Xi+to+think+widely%2c+praises+Mao
so, is the Nun appear in the video, is worse than Mao, the murderous who killed millions Tibetan???
or is Karma Choephel is worse than Mao or Chinese(who Kundun always like to stalk them)?? I never see Kundun speak angrily to the one who responsible for the Tibetan plight!!!
some thing very wrong here
Tenpel is an Inji with many personal issues who has had a morbid fixation on attacking his former Guru, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, for over 15 years. He has devoted countless hours to creating websites attacking NKT and promoting his own somewhat skewed views in Wikipedia articles and in online forums. Whilst he can claim to have once been an “insider”, readers would be wise not to take anything he writes as unbiased or clear information. There are better places to find out more about this nun and the organisation she belongs to.
In general I agree with the point made above that our cause is harmed by this Shugden issue. Kundun has muddied the waters by involving CTA. Surely now is the time, as What Dreams May Come says above, to just give these people freedom to practice their religion and thereby test the sincerity of this Shugden Orgs. If they did not then stop making Kundun and CTA look so bad, then we could know for sure they are backed by PRC, and they lose all credibility.
To carry on with this mixing religion and politics is the recipe for disaster.
Fellow Buddhists
As a female, western, lay NKT practitioner. I feel saddened to hear disrespectful untrue comments made about geshe Kelsang. He has brought pure dharma to the west and given many pure dharma teachings,written pure texts and given many people the opportunity to follow a pure spiritual path leading them out of samsara. He has shown the pure example of his own spiritual guide ( incidentally the same spiritual guide the Dalai Lama had also) and all previous pure spiritual guides before him back to Buddha shakyamuni, in an unbroken lineage. The nun was not abusive in the slightest. She is speaking up for many persecuted Tibetans who have had their religious freedom taken away from them to practise their dharma protector without fear of persecution or by being penalised with not getting necessary health care or getting basic necessities like food for their children and families. Choosing a spiritual path is a personal choice not a government choice. Peoples lives are being made extremely uncomfortable and they are being persecuted under the tyrannical actions of the DL making protestations that shugdan is a spirit and banning this ancient practise. He needs to be held to account for his actions for he is directly harming others and by preventing the spread of pure dharma is indirectly harming living beings. This nun was indeed brave to voice her concern.
The matter is complex, sensitive and has many sides to it, valid from the experiences and perceptions of people caught up in the issue. At these times my perception is that we have to go back to the basics: the Lord Buddha is the founder of Buddhism and his teachings are valid for any person, no matter if you are Tibetan, westener, man, woman, lay person or ordained . With all respect to HH, Geshe Kelsang and others, Buddha advised us to check the teachings of our spiritual guides for ourselves. If they cause unhappy and non peaceful states of mind, then it is likely that we are on the wrong track and you can and should question your spiritual teacher. Otherwise there will be a risk of Buddhism degenerating as has happened to
other religions, where teachings were rewritten centuries after to the benefit
of what appears to be wordly goals.
With regards to some people calling others crazy. From my own experience I have found that religions sometimes attracts people with mental health as well as physical health problems. What would you do if no worldly doctors can help you? If some people become aggressive and act in extreme ways to protect their religion, spiritual guide or views then I think that they are missing the point or their teachings have already degenerated.
It is difficult for most of us not to be affected by what happens in our worldly life even with spiritual practise. However, we should ask ourselves “what is more important, this life in which our karma is already mostly determined, or our future lifes that we can still steer towards a more fortunate rebirth through practising wisdom and compassion?
Recently Kundun’s security arrangement at the Tibetan Community center, Bay Area was a scarry one. His holiness gave an unplanned talk to the Tibetans where there were no metal screening arrangements and open field. People were only about four feets away. Any thing could happen given that nowadays Tibetans are divided among ourselves. Kundun meeting and touching people on the streets must be stopped once and for all. More than 99% of the famous people were killed in such like situations.
THE VOICE OF THE DALAI LAMA
If I had to find some fictional character to illustrate what the word tyranny means. I would choose “Saruman the White”. Tolkien describes very precisely what kind of motivation lies behind this word.
Saruman is the chief of a saga of wizards in the novel. A priori, he is a positive character. Then later on he is tempted by the lust of power. In the novel we are told that first he studied the arts of the enemy to fight them, but eventually gave in to those same arts. Saruman is tempted by the ring of power, which can subdue the whole “Middle-earth”. Saruman wants all the power for himself and from that very moment begins the corruption of his mind. First, by betraying his own kind, remember when Gandalf visits him Saruman tempts him with the possibility to help him to get the ring of power and dominate in this way “Middle-earth”. Gandalf refuses of course and then Saruman make him his prisoner. After that Saruman mobilizes all his forces to get the ring of power. In order, to achieve this he lies, cheats, and manipulates his own people as a real tyrant. It is important to remember that he is a being with powers and uses them to achieve his own distorted purposes. You only need to read the chapter “The voice of Saruman” to realize how he is able to manipulate and confuse people only with the friendly and seductive tone of his speech. Recall that in this chapter Saruman has already been defeated and cornered in his tower, but still he has the power of his voice that like the song of the sirens may tempt the unwary sailor. Luckily there is Gandalf to dismount all his lies.
Tolkien makes an excellent analysis of this character in this chapter.It is so good that one fear that Saruman will convince everyone of his goodness. It requires all the skill and integrity of Gandalf to defeat him.
This is a magnificent work to analyse power and its manipulations, how power changes the mind and the dangers of being tempted by power.
Unfortunately, it is not very difficult to find in this world examples that fit perfectly with Tolkien’s descriptions of Saruman. I think that the most remarkable is that of the Dalai Lama as a symbol of Buddhism worldwide, Nobel peace prize, supported by Hollywood and the media, as well as being the representative in this world of the words tolerance, compassion and goodness, actually he has deceive the whole world. The Dalai Lama voice resembles that of Saruman. His words in the west are cordial and tolerant but what really lies behind his seductive voice is the word tyranny. Tyranny towards his own people as religious discrimination (chasing mercilessly Dorje Shugden practitioners)
Since the Dalai Lama arrived to India his real motivation has been to destroy the four traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, thus creating a new tradition of which he would be the head. Then he would be the absolute leader of his people, political, material and spiritual. Is not this a description of absolutism?
Finally, I would only make a recommendation to all those under the influence of the Dalai Lama, check what is behind the voice of “HH” the Dalai Lama because his music although seductive resembles that of its counterpart in fiction.
LOGICAL REASONING
SYLLOGISM: Whenever we realize something by means of a conclusive reason we use a special form of logical reasoning known as a syllogism. A syllogism has three parts: subject, predicate and a reason. The combination of the subject and the predicate is called “probandum” in the example below the “probandum” is “The Dalai Lama is not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara” and is this we realize in dependence upon the reason. A conclusive reason is a reason that is able to establish a probandum incontrovertibly.
The definition of a conclusive reason is a reason that is qualified by the three modes. The three modes are: the property of the subject, the forward pervasion, and the reverse pervasion; and any conclusive reason will be qualified by all three. We can understand these three modes by considering the syllogism stated below:
The Dalai Lama is not an emanation of Avalokiteshvara because all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion.
The first mode is called the property of the subject because for a reason to be conclusive it must apply to, or be a property of the subject. In this case, the reason is a property of the subject because all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion (reason) refers to The Dalai Lama (subject). The second mode is called the “forward pervasion “because for a reason to be a conclusive reason it must be pervaded by the predicate. In this case, the reason is qualified by the second mode because if all his actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion (reason) cannot be an emanation of Avalokiteshvara (predicate). The third mode is called the “reverse pervasion” because if the predicate does not apply the reason must also not apply. In this case, the reason is qualified by the third mode because if he was an emanation of Avalokiteshvara all his actions would correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion. If a reason lacks any of the three modes it is not a conclusive reason.
In this case the reason is qualified by the three modes and we can say that it is a syllogism based on a conclusive reason. Maybe sometimes we are not sure about one of the parts of the syllogism, then we have to state another one per example maybe you are not sure about the reason established here ,that is, all his actions does not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion. Then we can establish another syllogism to prove the reason:
All Dalai Lama actions do not correspond with that of the Buddha of compassion because he did not condemn Iraq war; he has brought enormous suffering to many people by banning Dorje Shugden practice and he does not recognize his Spiritual Guide.
Recall that even Avalokiteshvara is an enlightened being he has his Spiritual Guide at his crown (Buddha Amithaba) out of respect.
For the rest you already know how to check if this is a syllogism based on a valid reason.
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-expelling-monks/
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/speeches-enforcing-the-ban/
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/video/dalai-lama-iraq-war/
The Dalai Lama called Shugden practitioners spirit worshippers, said this had nothing to do with freedom of religion, and said it’s all wrong. (If Shugden practitioners are wrong, as he keeps saying in every public talk he gives, then every Gelugpa or Kadampa Lama is wrong, and the Gelug tradition is entirely invalidated.)
What is wrong of course is the Dalai Lama’s behavior. He is not practicing what he preaches, he is using his political power and popularity to clamp down on religious freedom, he is causing his own people to suffer very badly. The evidence is there for anyone who cares to look. I personally have spoken to many people over the years who have been ostracized and persecuted due to his ban of this peaceful Buddhist practice, which was passed down from his own and other Gelugpa Spiritual Guides over many centuries. It is like banning Catholics from saying the Hail Mary. This is what is wrong.
We have nothing against the Dalai Lama per se, but if we don’t act to stop him, we are letting something terrible happen to the tradition of Lama Tsongkhapa. His words and actions do have the power to destroy this tradition. They have already damaged it severely – had it not been for our last protests and the subsequent building of a couple of small monasteries for the strong-hearted (where they can practice, albeit under daily ostracism and with no rights), it could have been completely destroyed in India and elsewhere by now. It may not be obvious to us why the Dalai Lama’s actions are so harmful, unless we look more deeply into it, in which case I invite you to explore more about the subject and make up your own mind. You can find out more on these websites, for example:
http://falsedalailama.com/
http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/ and http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/
I can’t believe you are still being fooled by this guy who calls himself Dalai Lama!
He accepts millions each year through the CIA and shady NGOs, travels the world charging hundred of dollars to talk “Dharma” stolen from his two tutors, Dorje Shugden practitioners, and on the other hand says they were wrong and defames their character.
And the millions if not billions of dollars for the “Free Tibet” movement? Where has all the money gone? Why do exiled Tibetans in India still live in such poor conditions relying on foreign aid agencies to provide safe drinking water; provide a decent medical programme to treat the high rates of TB, drug abuse, and AIDS.
Do you know how to think for yourselves??
Shugden controversy is fallout of Geluk loss of hegemony over Tibetan politics since coming into exile as HHDL gave equal voice to all sects of Tibetan Buddhism and Bonpo.
The staunch Geluk were not happy when Gaden Ngamchoe was delisted from official holiday list.
Now Shugden group are now even displaying a sign of regionalism always trying to blame Utsang.
Personally deity or spirit worship whether its Shugden or Nechung is backward 17th century mentality.
No wonder we merit and reward all good and achievement to spirit even though blood, sweat and work are done by human (Tibetan).
Like Jamyang Norbu said the Tibetan govt should come to some understanding with the shugden practitioners coz they are same tibetan brothers and sisters. Then our all focus and concentration should be on the sinister enemy rogue CCP.and some like this rogue anonymous @ 40 should be exposed for what they are.
@39: During the times of Tsongkhapa there was neither the existence of Shugden nor did he talk about Shugden. So just stop trying to be expert on Buddhism.
I sometimes feel irritated when these Westerners after studying couple of years claim to be expert in Buddhism.
Buddhism is not like Bible or Koran which can be read in couple of days.
@ 39 Sarah
“Its like banning catholic from saying Hail Mary”
Was Mary murdered in a brutul manner and vowed vengeance? Or maybe you make the comparison of Shugden diety’s murder with Jesus being crucified to the cross- but there is a big difference . Where one has already attained what is called Christ consciousness and therefore transcended duality, the Shugden diety while having intellectual understanding still living very much in duality. When the deity avowed vengeance there is volition for generating karma right there.
But if the deity worship has given you much comfort and peace as a lot of the worshippers say – then good on you.
Ensuring the Dalai lama’s safety and limiting access to him makes total sense, given the fact that he is an important figure in the world and in the Tibetan communities in particular.
I saw the video and was rather taken aback. I have never seen anything like that happening when the Dalai Lama is on a tour, but quite the opposite.
Having watched the video, it seems to be fair to say that the bodyguards r absolutely useless! Or they might have been bribed to let the nun say whatever she had planned to say. They stood there doing nothing at all.
This whole thing was planned well. Whoever was behind this knew that the Dalai Lama would say something back, which he did. And they knew that this bunch of bodyguards wouldn’t dare to jump in while that Dalai Lama is talking.
If I had been the Dalai Lama( in this case) I wouldn’t have said a word to an inji nun who didn’t know what she was doing there.
btw, is it a matter of pride to have known MAo? I think this is silly tib mentality. one thing for sure not to have some modern education is a handicap really.
Obviously organizers failed to arrange proper security measure for His Holiness. Future Organizers must learn from this mistake.
Most of the Western Shugden followers could not fit within their own society as a normal person. For such reason we should not waste any time to deal with these psychologically imbalanced people.
Shugden practice is never in history core part of Tibetan Buddhism or teaching of Lama Tsongkapa. No need to mention about Buddhism itself. Among four Tibetan Buddhist Schools, only Gelug School practice Shugden. Among Gelug School only fraction of them practice Shugden. Most of these Tibetan Shugden followers still have deep respect to Dalai Lama despite of their steadfast believe in Shugden. So it boils down to very small number who is doing these protest and making trouble in our society and China is happily behind these people.
Dear Jamyang lak,
Thank you for your article and thoughts. I do appreciate them and although I don’t agree with some of them, I like your caring honesty. I also agree with your stance that Shugden people should not have any proscriptions against them by CTA and just allowed their worship in peace.
The protests will not stop and this issue will not die off till it’s handled correctly. His HOliness the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan leadership MUST have dialogue with Shugden groups in a peaceful and logical manner to resolve this issue in a democratic manner. These protests which are all over the media will embarrass the the Tibetan leadership and unfortunately tarnish the Dalai Lama’s international reputation. Something must be done immediately. I do not worship Dorje Shugden but I live in USA and freedom of religion is honored. We Tibetans have religious freedom here in the USA. All Tibetans and people of the world deserve it also. It is outdated for CTA leadership to ban any religions, spiritual worship or practices in this day and age with Tibetans and Tibetan communities.
Tibetans and Tibetan leadership still rely on Western support of their causes. So it would be better to portray to Westerners and their governments that we Tibetans (CTA) are not having witch hunts. You may have theological differences, but that should not equate to having actual laws banning Shugden Tibetans from Tibetan hospitals, monasteries, schools and equal opportunity. The CTA should stop printing flyers/information/distributions, remove all anti-Shugden write ups from their official website. All Shugden Tibetans should be welcomed into mainstream Tibetan life and join the protest for a Free or autonomous (Depending on Dalai Lama) Tibet against the Chinese just like our Muslim and Bonpo Tibetans. CTA should stop dividing Tibetans. His Holiness (with respect) should stop calling Shugden people spirit worshippers. He is insulting someone’s faith and inevitably inciting ignorant Tibetans to act (sometimes violently: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-creates-violence-again/ )against Shugden people. That should stop. It does not look good for H.H. Dalai Lama to be seen in this light where he encourages religious discrimination. He should not call anyone a spirit worshipper. This really looks bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wvqb-DaAS0
I don’t agree with the nun’s approach but I don’t agree with Dalai Lama’s answer. His Holiness invited this upon himself I respectfully say.
I love my Tibet, I love the Dalai Lama and proud to be a Tibetan, but there are issues within our society and religion that need to be addressed immediately such as the Shugden issue. The Dalai Lama and Tibetan lamas all get their support/finances from foreigners. Foreigners and their democratic views must be respected.
Jampa Tsering
US press clearly talking about protests against Dalai Lama. This is not good:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/extensive-media-coverage-of-dalai-lama-protests/
Other than the Gelugpas, the Sakyas, Ngorpas and Drugpa Kagyus have practiced and written liturgical texts for offering rituals of Dorje Shugden.
Losar greetings to all!
I enjoyed DJ’s, The Voice of the Dalai Lama, as I grew up on Tolkiens and it’s also nice to come across a true aficionado of the genre. I’ve always felt sorry at Saruman’s downfall, I had hoped, while reading the novel in my youth, that in the end, he would redeem himself and afterward,I dont know, lived happily ever after with Iluvatar, alas it was not meant to be, his pride broke under him, and like Lucifer never to rise again.
Yes, when you put it like that DJ, there are some commonalities in the habits and instincts in both characters, especially the hubris part, but that is because both representatives have human passions and motivations such that you can take virtually any human being on earth and he too will have some negative predisposition to tyrannizing others (see milgram experiment, see Confucius Institute loving Stanford, prison experiment) ala Saruman. The operative word is “some” meaning, not all. Tyranny isnt like a surrounding gas which effect all equally. Saruman has not an iota of compassion, look how he treated his ally Grima. Saruman wasted countless lives wilfully,(orcs,elves, human, birds and beasts, even Ents) His Holiness, to my knowledge, has only killed few annoying mosquitoes.(as he once confessed)
While a fun read, your analogy is too cute by a mile DJ. To juxtapose the two in this extreme fashion, because of your distaste for Kundun, is to lose objectivity, hence lose credibility.
Another quaint factoid. Saruman had true enchantment of the voice,(in the fictional sense) so awesome it was, some rohanian riders were physically perturbed by the Maia’s persuasive voice, whereas, His Holiness is merely human, therefore has no such magical powers.
Ofcourse there are many ignorami who think Kundun is god, but that kind of opinion no serious person can take seriously. One reason people have deep faith in His Holiness(especially Tibetans)is because they keenly desire those values that Kundun symbolizes and enunciates. People also believe in His Holiness because, THEY WANT TO, simple as that. That is to say, the enchantment is self induced. One is both deluded and self deluded simultaneously– seems like this is how religious faith works best for the faithful.
Ofcourse, you have your opinion and I have mine, yet we are both ignorant of His Holiness’s subjective psyche, with whats really going on in his mind with regard to why he says and does what he say and do.
As someone who has given himself to hostage of fortune by questioning His Holiness at times, yet even to me, His Holiness is far less Sarumanish than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong, or even Bush and Chaney. Its actually quite an asinine suggestion to think that His Holiness is the epitome of tyranny.
Even having come to accept, yes, in exile community, there are injustices perpetrated against our own people, but there is also the belief(and correct me if im wrong whiteiscolor)that those injustices can be excused, because, ultimately, the sacrifice is necessary for the greater good.
We in our comfy couch philosophizing so casually, but it must be difficult to be a world leader, at times psychologically disturbing. Look how much Obama has aged even after his first term in office. leaders like His Holiness, Obama, they have to make tough decisions in real time. Sometimes, what is morally right and wrong isnt so clear cut but they must continuously face the trolley problem when making hard political decisions.
They must choose and live with the consequences knowing that some in the society will suffer, no matter what they choose To be fair and also to acknowledge the fact that its not so easy to lead. Not as easy as we assume. I would honestly dread having to make such decisions. I suppose thats why I am not a leader.
ok i will continue after…
Damage is done. There must be some explanation for that. It scares hell out of me.
I am not sure if Tolkens got his inspiration for LOTR’s reading Plato’s Republic, where in book 2, Socrates and others discuss normative ethics touching on Justice, whetehr there is such a thing as a true Just and moral man, further more, what is so great about being just anyway? Is there value in being just, or value in ‘appearing’ to be just: intrinsic and instrumental values.
Socrates was of the opinion that justice is good for its own sake or something like that, but his brother Glaucon was more sceptical, he thought that, generalizing, people act morally, act just, because they fear the consequences and not because people think justice is good in itself. That sometimes,the wealthy, powerful, influential people can buy off justice. Glaucon then tells a titillating old tale called, the Ring of Gyges, the gist; how a poor Shepard, who finds a magic ring of invisibility, puts it on, and in a short time, by nefarious means, aided by the power of the ring, kills the king, marries the queen and amass such a fortune as to make Midas weep with envy.
The motto of the story (how I interpret it) is that, if a person has to choose between being just or being unjust and if there are no consequences, most would choose to be unjust for profit sake.
So yah, in this regard, HH is accountable to no one as many Tibetans see nothing wrong with his unjust actions against the hapless shugden devotees in south india, but its bit of a stretch to claim that HH is “evil” like Saruman, it could just mean, that sometimes, when it comes to politics, especially when it comes to religious turf wars, or opining about deities and other mind numbing magic of Tibetan Buddhism, he’s got too much stake in it.
Not just His Holiness but Geshi Kalsang Gatso is also responsible for the continuation of this controversy, which has nothing to do with what the historical Buddha Gautama taught. Some of you need to please stop with the pure lineage, pure dharma idiocy, if you dont know, reacquaint yourselves with the Pali Canon.
Anyway, what kind of a hideous intellectual contortions must one have to pretzelize into in-order for someone who professes to honour the saliency of Kalama Sutra and the avoidance of fallacies, who thinks critically, dispassionately, objectively, then– arrive at an indubitable certainty that faeries exist, and whats more, these insubstantial spirits, bereft of materiality,(not even a scintilla of particle on them) can, never the less, influence bosons and fermions, enough to violate natural laws. While the ontology might be sustainable, the metaphysics unfalsifiable, eschatologically consoling, the physics is so incoherent.
I agree with jampa tsering
Tibetans now, are losing focus on there most important issue, and the bad Leadership of HHDL and his CTA making everything worse, by mixing politics with superstitious..and even using violence against certain worshiper!!!! while refuse to resist Chinese, because HHDL claim he want abandon violence!!!!
HHDL even praise MAo..the biggest murderus in the history..Ironically, HHDL won’t praise any dorje Shugden worshiper or any thing related to this diety!!!!
we need to change our leadership!!!!
རྩོམ་ཡིག་འདི་བོད་བསྒྱུར་བྱེད་རོགས་རེ་བ་ཆེ།
First I am not a shugden follower. Let me get this out first.
There is no ban as such as many inji followers claim.
Let me elaborate for the education of others from the things I know first hand.
Children’s of shugden practitioners still study in Tibetan schools without any discrimination. My relatives work as teachers in a very good school in South India. I know for several years now, when the students need to go for overnight stay/vacation, they need to bring letter from a guarantor requesting permission. Many children, having monk relatives from monastery that worships shugden, proudly bring letter with official letter head identifying their affiliation. Schools do not have any problem in honoring their request and children face no discrimination of any kind. This I know as a fact.
But I also no that some stupid monastic official(s) seems to have placed a notice of kind outside a clinic stating that Shugden followers do not come for treatment. This is also true and this in fact has become a good instrument for Shugden followers to allege wide spread discrimination or witch hunt of sort.
My personal feeling is either it is the work of hardline fundamentalist who really believe that he is doing a great favor to H.H. Dalai Lama or it could be a work of a very shrewd monk who wants to harm His Holiness by pretending to be his die hard followers.
This is the biggest problem I have witnessed in my long experience of working for Tibetan cause up close that H.H.the Dalai Lama is not able to identify well intention advisors from those actors with ulterior motives.
But this does not mean a shudgen followers do not get treatment at Tibetan clinic no. I was at a clinic and monk seated in front of me waiting for doctors happens to be a shugden follower. He saw the doctor, and we chatted about everything under the sun, except didn’t touch on the topic.
I think the greatest problem in our society the mind -set of people like Whiteiscolour @ 47 who wrote and I quote:
” Most of the Western Shugden followers could not fit within their own society as A NORMAL PERSON . For such reason we should not waste any time to deal with these PSYCHOLOGICALLY IMBALANCE PEOPLE ”
I can’t stand the craziness of people like him. I am praying hard that people like him are not in an advisory position near His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Yes, there could some crazy inji but a whole group can’t deranged. I strongly believe that there could be many well intention people in Shudgen group too. But what they need to be careful is not be exploited by their lamas or for that matter, China.
China is actively exploiting this division and I would like to appeal to well intention western followers of shugden to be very careful not to play into the hands of China. For shudgen followers, it may a issue of ” religious freedom” as they claim it. But for many lay Tibetans like me, it is a struggle for the heart and soul of my nation and culture.
As a die hard Rangzen followers, His Holiness the Dalai Lama at this point represent Tibetan nation and I and my families will be there to welcome His Holiness the Dalai Lama when He comes to our neck of woods and will be standing right opposite Shugden followers,if they turn up to protest.
We will be standing right opposite shugden followers not against their beliefs but I will also not let shugden followers to bulldoze my national honor. I want them to understand this too.
Hhdl praised Moa, Bush. Wait till he praise north korean leader. What is going on. If your parents died because of mao, you won’t think mao is great.
The Tibetan people whoever Not satisfied with His Holiness’s leadership, I asked them the alternative. Who can replace His Holiness as a leader of Tibetan people? Are there anybody in these people’s head who might have better leadership qualities than His Holiness?
I personally do not believe His Holiness is a some sort of god or reincarnation of Avalokiteshowra as many Tibetans believe. His Holiness himself never claimed being such. But I have extreme faith in His Holiness as a exceptional human being, who is honest, compassionate, intelligent, experienced and hard working. No Tibetans, in fact no human being have ability to do anything like what His Holiness have been doing in His entire life.
Some times Leaders have to make difficult decision and Shugden issue is one of them for His Holiness. He had a option of dealing with it or ignoring it and He decided to deal with it. Shugden issue is never about religious freedom as many people think. As a religious leader, His holiness has a responsibility to guide His followers in a proper path. His holiness has absolute right to tell people whoever do not want to follow my guidance, they should not attend my teachings. If you want to ride the board, you must follow the captains command. If you want to be a member of any institution, you must follow the rules and regulations of that institution. These things have nothing to do with the violation of individual rights.
Like Mr. Jamyang Norbu la said, many people think people should be allowed to practice whatever they wish. But the problem is Shugden followers and non Shugden followers live together, in the same monastery, same temple, same room, same community, same teacher. Hopefully there is a way out for all of us and we all can focus on more important issue of dealing with China rather than fighting against each other.
Happy Losar everybody
http://timestoday.in/tibetans-in-exile-mark-new-year-by-offering-prayers-in-dharamsala/?from=message&isappinstalled=0
Dharamsala, Mar 2 Tibetans in-exile in Dharamsala celebrated ‘Losar’, the Tibetan New Year on Sunday, and pledged to uphold the cultural ethos and traditional values of humility, integrity and resilience.
Tibetan monks were seen playing musical instruments and praying to mark the New Year.
Press officer of Tibetan government in-exile, Tsering Wangchuk, extended best wishes to everyone on the occasion.
“Today is the first day of Tibetan New Year. As usual we invoke all the protecting deities particularly Dorje Shugden who is the official protecting deity of the Tibetan government earlier, now central Tibetan administration. So I wish everybody a happy new year,” said Wangchuk.
‘Losar’ is marked with ancient ceremonies that represent the struggle between good and evil. The occasion is marked by chanting hymns and passing fire torches through the crowds.
A foreign tourist, Maya, offered prayers and said they were ushering in the year of wood horse.
“Today is the prayer for Losar, so it’s the Tibetan New Year. They are ushering in the year of wood horse and the year of the snake has been ushered out,” said Maya.
People enjoy levity provided by events such as dance of the deer and amusing battles between the King and his various ministers. (ANI)
So does that mean Shugden has been bound and pacified? is he no longer punitive?
post 58 LOB KIBUM
Whaaaat? Can someone explain this please.
Sadly in all this stance we are back at square 1. Back in 1996 and haven,t moved an inch. No one knew shugden before That so why such an issue? Do peeps dwell into the immediate history or the full history of this so called Evil spirit. I personally don’t know much about religion and the little history to this spirit makes it sound more like a political struggle and less of a religious stance.
I have seen a counter answer for every statement made and it definitely is confounding. It’s amazing that its been close to 18 years since this issue was raised and I m pretty darn sure that no one knows where this shugden is. Reality is definitely stranger than fiction.
It’s amazing that all the great masters were demon worshippers. Even his Holiness worshipped a demon for more than half his life. This evil spirit has been around for close to 400 years basically from the time of the fifth dalai lama. Basically ever since our current Ganden phodrang or when the Dalai lama,s came into power as both the spiritual and political head. Before that it was purely religious. again correct me if I,m wrong. So this spirit has outlived not one nor two but 9 dalai lamas. We were a free country in Tibet under the rule of the dalai lama and none of them with their full power eradicated this spirit.
The fifth dalai lama first denounced this spirit then praised it. (it gets confusing) and wrote a prayer praising it. This spirit originated in the Sakya sect. Then somewhere down the line the 11th dalai lama gave the name shugden and the protector of the geluk teachings of je tsonkhapa. Then it Gained notoriety with the 13 dalai lama and there is a whole conflicting story with nechung in regards.
Then the 14 dalai lama, there is a conflicting story again with nechung and the fleeing of his holiness to India. History states nechung told his holiness to leave tibet but there are a lot of sources (I love google) including a foreigners story about how nechung stated otherwise and this spirit telling his holiness to flee. The guerilla guys were guided throughout by this spirit in their fight for freedom and paving the way for his holiness to flee to India safely. Obviously in today’s day we can call this superstition or whatever but this guys thought that an amulet was better than a bullet proof vest and that courage made them do incredible stuff.
So for the next 30 years his holiness did not have a problem with this spirit. Then in 1970 a yellow book by Zemey rinpoche was published which pissed off his holiness and a couple of nyingma masters. I don’t know the details of this book as it is in Tibetan and I couldn’t google it. But then his holiness started having problems and asked both his masters. Trijang rinpoche was a strong supporter of this spirit and called it An enlightened being. I guess his holiness could not go against his guru while he was alive and didn’t publicly denounce this spirit. Trijang and ling rinpoche both passed away as well as other great geluk masters in the late 70 s and 80s . Then his holiness got the Nobel peace prize in the late 80’s and all the other sects started looking towards his holiness as their leader. But there were skeptics. Gelug was totally under his holiness. Nearly 100 % of geluk looked to his holiness as their guru. With this in mind, his holiness denounced shugden in 1996. And the rest is history. We are still at that state. Btw samdhong was also a disciple of Trijang and a worshipper of spirit. . He may state otherwise. So everyone has been a spirit worshipper at some point in their life. Mind u not when they were young but after they had attained their geshe or should I say phd in buddhism. Hmmm,?? Again this is strictly historical and all online. I dont know the religiousness behind it. But I think we need to ponder into it. Cause for the last 18 yrs we have been going round and round the issue and never resolved anything as we can see it is definitely not going away. And as jamyangla stated, we might reach a day when they might be fighting on the streets. Bloodshed leads to more bloodshed and anger and hatred leads to more anger and hatred. Egos aside a resolution needs to be reached and we should not forget two beggars fighting on the street hurts the two beggars at the end. We are homeless and without a country. Should we beg for our freedom while fighting and squabble for the pennies that are thrown to us or should we stand united strong And one and demand what is rightfully ours. Freedom is our birthright and we will have it. The choice is ours. Let s stop leaning and depending upon anyone including his holiness (his load is heavy enough), and walk the walk and talk the talk and show the world that a hand open can close into a fist. Free Tibet!
Dawa, nothing is going on, LOB KIBUM did not bother to fact check… he is not the only one, many shugden sites cautiously wondered, is the ban lifted? Is this for real? Today isnt April first is it? Most were cynical about the story. They turned out to be right. However, they didn’t bother to fact check either. When I first perused it, here, I was kind of taken in too. I thought, Tsering Wangchuk? Smart guy! Then, later, reading it again, things didnt add up, something fishy, so i googled.
It seems the story was first reported at News Track India. Looks like some lazy reporter, whether, due to an honest mistake, or just being mischievous, substituted Palden Lhamo with Dorje Shugden. He also brushed off Penpa Tsering STPE in favour of Tsering Wangchuk Press Officer, DIIR.
Today NewsTrackIndia redressed the factual errors. They reprinting an amended version, and a correction. (In our release on March 2 we had wrongly mentioned the name of the speaker to be Tsering Wangchuk and the protecting deity as Dorje Shugden) (ANI)
So now it reads;
“Penpa Tsering, speaker of Tibetan Parliament in exile, extended best wishes to everyone on the occasion.”
‘”Today is the first day of Tibetan New Year. As usual we invoke all the protecting deities particularly Palden Lhamo who is the official protecting deity of the Tibetan government earlier, now central Tibetan administration. So I wish everybody a happy new year,” said Tsering.’
http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2014/03/04/369-Tibetans-in-exile-mark-New-Year-by-offering-prayers-in-Dharamsala.html
Now if tomorrow this story is proved wrong, please feel free to blame whiteiscolor.
I cannot believe this drama surrounding Shugden. Dalai Lama say Shugden is spirit worship, then Palden Lhamo and Nechung is equally spirit worship. So then one spirit worship is better than the other? No wonder there is so much controversy, distrust and divide in the community.
Thank you Jamyang la for drawing support from so called shugden follower to throw mud on CTA.
firstly,there is no security issues here, you cannot treat shudgen follower as some sort of dangerous goons ready to kill and harm another human.
Injee num or not, can protest but they should realise that it goes both ways.The other end will protest against you for defaming buddha for calling a spirit a buddha or other reason.
However you present it, if religioUS AGENDA or other AGENDA carries into POLITICAL landscape and HARM to our political struggle,YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF TIBETAN PEOPLE.THERE IS NO THIS OR THAT FOLLOWER.
It is a form of a worship whether it is shugdhen or nechung. Hhdl really looks bad in that video, that nun was so calm approaching while preacher of oeace and non violence is so intensive, unsecured.
What a irony?
JN…These Inji Shugden people appear to me to be part of the disenfranchised white and asians who just can’t cut it in this world. Look at their faces. I don’t see any human heart with the least amount of love coming from them. They are pawns minions of some other diabolical leader be it PRC or Tibetan. It is so very obvious to me, as an inji myself, that these people are very low producers of any community or economic good. Forever victims and loving it.
These Injis Buddhist were very reluctant to protest against Chinese for the religious persecution of Tibetans citing its as politics.
But these Western Shugden do not mind broking the silent code of conduct.
I can’t buy the logic that people who are against us, however, large the group is to some mentally unstable and same inji or people who support us to be of superior or higher class.
Lot many suspicious character are getting around His Holiness the Dalai Lama by pretending to be true believers. This includes Tibetans in his inner circle.
@ 63 Tenzin,
Please don’t talk like you figured out something. This little knowledge is dangerous.
HHDL, notwithstanding his shortcoming in sweet diplomacy and finesse in talking knows what he is talking about. He has thought hard and done what he felt he had to do. Maybe HH could have gone about little more diplomatically and how he said could have been gentler but other than that, it is what it is.
Shugden is a worldly spirit with demonic power. Yes, there are any number of spirits been worshipped/consulted but the difference in the case of Shugden is that he helps those of his own and the others he punishes just out of ego and sectarianism. Is that a Buddha nature or enlightened? Even a random powerful spirit can help you but isn’t that playing with fire?
In the final analysis, you as a human being have more potential than any spirit. The potential to truly realize your true nature- pure consciousness or Buddha nature.
But before that we have to free Tibet.
Someone writing as “Namkhah” posted the name of the Western Shugden nun and her address, email and tel #, in order that people call and harrass her. That comment has been deleted.
I wrote this post hoping that a discussion could be started which would eventually bring about a situation where the CTA would contact the Shugden followers and reach some kind of minimal understanding so that His His Holiness is not bothered again but where also Shugden followers are not harrased or demonized in our society.
The first step to bring about such a resolution is for people to stop insulting and demonizing the other as a few commentors have done. Otherwise I think the discussion is proceeding quite well. I find the long comments by someone referring to himself (or herself) as “?” to be very informative.
Not publishing my letter is your privilege as editor. However, readers should be aware that another demonstration by the cult is gong to happen in Washington, DC in two days time. Being wishy-washy is what NKT thrives on. Here is a link to fundraising site:
http://www.gofundme.com/75xk2o
They have raised over $14,000 for transporting more cultists into DC to again shout “stop lying’ and ‘hypocrite’ to HHDL, and disrupt his talk to attract as much national media attention as possible.
Praise to you, violent god of the Yellow Hat teachings, Who reduces to particles of dust Great beings, high officials, and ordinary people Who pollute and corrupt the Gelugpa doctrine.
– From “Praise to Dorje Shugden,” quoted by Zemey Rinpoche (1927-1996)
http://www.tricycle.com/feature/letting-daylight-magic-the-life-and-times-dorje-shugden?page=0,0
If we are to come to some understanding of this issue then we cannot be in denial of the ‘religious’ debates around the various protectors in Tibetan Buddhism.
“TYPES OF PROTECTORS
In general, there are three types of protectors: Wisdom protectors, Action protectors, and Worldly protectors. A wisdom protector, or Dharmapala, is an emanation of the enlightened mind of the Buddha. Action protectors, such as Raven-Headed One, are the assistants of the wisdom protectors and are part of their retinue. Worldly protectors, or Lokapalas, have power of an ordinary, worldly type.
Lokapalas, literally “worldly protectors,” are beings who inhabit one or more of the six realms. They are worldly rather than transcendent deities. Although they are more powerful than ordinary people, they lack the complete realization of a Buddha. Their power is of an ordinary, worldly type.”
People on this blog have referred to Nechung and Palden Lhamo. From my understanding they are worldly protectors & not Bodhisattvas. They are not ‘worshipped’ as such. We invoke them to serve us; we do not let them become our masters.
The debate is whether Shugden is a worldy protector or a Dharma-Pala.
Other traditions (Sakya etc) have invoked and pacified Shugden as a worldly protector.
List of the Bodhisattvas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bodhisattvas
Tenzing 69, its odd, you tell Tenzin, “little knowledge is dangerous” then chanting arcane propaganda, “Shugden is a worldly spirit with demonic power” and “there are any number of spirits” and “Even a random powerful spirit can help you” and finally, you said, “In the final analysis, you as a human being have more potential than any spirit.” What???
First of all, what are you smoking? 2nd of all, can i get some, and do you accept Bitcoin? 3rd, did you skip over what ? wrote? I agree with Jamyang Norbu, ? is impressive, researching like that, kid already thinks like a scientist. Good to see.
TSUNDDRU
Hmm, well, ok, if a voodoo master like His Holiness can invoke that many powerful protectors to serve and protect him, then, how was it possible that one puny shugden nun managed to break through his guard so easily?
Thank u jamyangla from turning namkahla and many others from not performing a criminal act. As we are here to explain and inform insinuating and threatening or harassing an individual via phone calls is a crime as per law. The correct charge is aggravated harrassment and a person performing it will be arrested by law. Stalking is something similar regardless of how good u r or your motive.
On the other hand picketing, peaceful protests regardless of what your motive is or how much u hate it is the first amendment to the constitution, the right to assembly. as free citizens of the country u do have that right. While we are at it the first amendment also states freedom of speech,religion, and assembly. And obviously with stipulation except religion which is absolute. Correct me of I’m wrong.
I hope this helps again this is all google.
Below are some racis tquotes from dolgyal people:
from Maclean’s Magazine blog from Thomas David Canada aka “Lhakpa Gyaltshen” husband of an heiress to the Eli Lilly pharmaceutical fortune and hence extremely wealth. His remarks are addressed to Tibetans whom he also referred elsewhere to as “dungeaters”–
” No wonder you lost your land, only cowards run away”
”Come on down and we’ll check your skin or better yet, We’ll just deport you back to China”
THOMAS DAVID CANADA
CEDAR CITY, UTAH USA
Julio Springer Pitanga, now a Dolgyal worshipper from 2004:
“the foolishness of the Jewish belief in depraved scriptures such as the Torah.”
“the crooked ideology ascribed to a mafioso called “Moses”
“Since the term “anti-Semitism” is widely recognized as a failed piece of Jewish propaganda, who would care about this Jewish garbage anyway?
In 2013 he writes, “Aung San Suu Kyi is a Western puppet”
“The old hoax of “millions of Tibetans” killed by the Chinese are just the usual Jewish-Western propaganda cover for their own continuous and systematic massacres of Buddhist people, from Japan to Korea to Laos to Cambodia to Vietnam. Lucky were the Tibetans, as they were under direct Chinese protection, and therefore the Jewish-Westerner mass murderers, the Muslim Dalai allies, did not dare to openly attack.”
Regarding the security question, there are clearly extremists in their midst!
he’s so googly.
NAMKHAH, funny, you said, wishy-washy. That reminds me, which Dalai Lama will be visiting DC? The witchking or the science loving geek?
His Holiness brought this on himself unfortunately, he is already half way down the slippery slope, and no matter how much my fellow Tibetans bitch, cry, threaten, spin, its lose lose situation for one important reason, that, unlike Tibet vs China, this time around, the truth is not on our side. Yet its not too late to atone.
As His holiness so sagaciously observed a little while ago, that, the peoples of the world who support us, are not so much pro Tibet as they are pro justice.
He has also said, (to chinese students) one shouldn’t just listen to the government, you have two eyes, two ears, make use of them. You as a citizen of that society has the right to judge right from wrong, therefore, censorship is morally and practically wrong.
His spiritual kindred, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr once said, true peace is not merely the absence of tension, but the presence of justice…
I really believe, in the long run, its better to be just than seemingly just. (sorry Glaucon)
Please be and open and diverse platform and post my thoughts. Thank you.
******************
Dalai Lama should do something already:
The protests will not stop and this issue will not die off till it’s handled correctly. His HOliness the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan leadership MUST have dialogue with Shugden groups in a peaceful and logical manner to resolve this issue in a democratic manner. These protests which are all over the media will embarrass the the Tibetan leadership and unfortunately tarnish the Dalai Lama’s international reputation. Something must be done immediately. I do not worship Dorje Shugden but I live in USA and freedom of religion is honored. We Tibetans have religious freedom here in the USA. All Tibetans and people of the world deserve it also. It is outdated for CTA leadership to ban any religions, spiritual worship or practices in this day and age with Tibetans and Tibetan communities.
Tibetans and Tibetan leadership still rely on Western support of their causes. So it would be better to portray to Westerners and their governments that we Tibetans (CTA) are not having witch hunts. You may have theological differences, but that should not equate to having actual laws banning Shugden Tibetans from Tibetan hospitals, monasteries, schools and equal opportunity. The CTA should stop printing flyers/information/distributions, remove all anti-Shugden write ups from their official website. All Shugden Tibetans should be welcomed into mainstream Tibetan life and join the protest for a Free or autonomous (Depending on Dalai Lama) Tibet against the Chinese just like our Muslim and Bonpo Tibetans. CTA should stop dividing Tibetans. His Holiness (with respect) should stop calling Shugden people spirit worshippers. He is insulting someone’s faith and inevitably inciting ignorant Tibetans to act (sometimes violently: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-creates-violence-again/ )against Shugden people. That should stop. It does not look good for H.H. Dalai Lama to be seen in this light where he encourages religious discrimination. He should not call anyone a spirit worshipper. This really looks bad: Dalai Lama angrily replies to peaceful nun
I don’t agree with the nun’s approach but I don’t agree with Dalai Lama’s answer. His Holiness invited this upon himself I respectfully say.
I love my Tibet, I love the Dalai Lama and proud to be a Tibetan, but there are issues within our society and religion that need to be addressed immediately such as the Shugden issue. The Dalai Lama and Tibetan lamas all get their support/finances from foreigners. Foreigners and their democratic views must be respected.
Jampa Tsering
US press clearly talking about protests against Dalai Lama. This is not good:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/extensive-media-coverage-of-dalai-lama-protests/
what dreams may come
If you want to worship dorjee shugden as a god i will have to respect that and yes i agree with Jamyang Norbu that some compromise should come about. BUT NO NO No to foisting this unrealised spirit on all Tibetans like few decades back. NO WORSHIP OF ANY sECTARIAN UNENLIGHTEND SPIRIT FOR ME!P
#75 – what dreams etc
From my point of view Ani was asking for the enlightened ‘Wrath’.
HH cut through the ignorance and told her as it is. Ani kept repeating robotically in denial as when one is told the truth.
THE SPIRIT HAS DONE ENOUGH HARM. DONT GET ME GOING!
You guys are more tolerant than I.
Here are some final quotes from the cult website. I suspect most of the participants are overseas Chinese in Singapore, Bangkok and Malaysia but its hard to tell with fake identities. Some of them likely went to school in the UK and are familiar with the NKT, but maybe followers of Gangchen, etc.
“…so many Tibetans are living in a state of pure ignorance…It is no wonder that the Tibetan community is so backward and that there are no famous Tibetan lay people in the world.”
“…the Tibetan community is so backward and that there are no famous Tibetan lay people in the world. There are no well known Tibetan scientists or engineers or businessmen.”
“Tibetans are generally not very educated, quite backwards and do not have much exposures to the outside world thus education and exposures are therefore very important.
“:the Tibetan community is just filled with ignorant people”
Publicly making inappropriate statements that express disrespect for an ethnic group is more than just a matter of bad taste: inciting hatred against any ‘identifiable group’ is an indictable offense in most western countries. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) states that “any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law” However, the Internet is lawless in this respect.
This is not an issue of whether Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being or a Spirit. All this discussion is completely irrelevant. This is just a simple issue of religious freedom and respecting the views of others which the Dalai Lama and CTA have clearly not done for the past 18 years.
Article 18. Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Doesn’t it seem bit queer that all these Tibetan protector deities keep abandoning us Tibetans just when we have the most need for them? It’s as though they don’t even exist, or give a shit.
Each person, Group, Village, and Area had their own ‘worldly protector’ in Tibet.
In the Amdo/Golok /Kham area the ‘worldly protector’ was ‘Machen Pomra”.
And this same protector has been adopted by some of the western/dharma community in the US.
Amongst some Hindus – Hanuman is a ‘worldly protector”.
When deities are JEALOUS of each other and in conflict – nothing good comes of it.
BTW – someone above mentioned about Avolokiteshwara – god etc: The Dharmapalas (wisdom protectors) are there as guides and aides towards higher consciousness.
We commonly talk of Avalokiteshwara as a god ‘out there’ but in actuality it is embodiment of the consciousness of COMPASSION. So there are beautiful thangkas representing this to awaken some of this consciousness; which can only be found in ourselves. Something like stirring the chakras of the human body. Most of the time most of us dwell in the lower chakras.
@ 84
ah, its come to that now, is it? upto now all i heard from the worshippers was that the spirit is the emanation of Manjushri and even keeping him higher above Buddha.
religious freedom? i think you mean destigmatize. that i can accept because you already have relgious freedom unless one is from tibet. and even there, Shugden worshippers have more relgious freedom than the rest.
To tell u the truth,when shugdhen banning starts,it was very intense at first in bylakuppe. Samdhong rinpoche gave a historic speech in sera monastery and thus ended up discriminating shugdhen followers forcefully. It was almost like a segregation in southern states of US and apartheid in Africa.
Later western shugdhen followers somehow was good at PR relations and there was here and there little news in the press about shugdhen. Then, approach to shugdhen was change a little bit by HHDL and exile govt saying, there r free to worship, before that it was not that kind of tactic. Old camp no 5 and (bylakuppe)6 people faced lot of struggles as they have Nyernga tsogpha.their statues were thrown out from the temples, can not eat in a tibetan restaurant, can not get help from exile health clinic.
In short, even though I oppose to worship shugdhen , I feel pity and sympathy for them. It was sought of small cultural revolution test they faced. People look down, stigma,etc. they also boycott a tibetan restaurant in settlement saying he is a shugdhen worshiper,
As my inspirational expert jamyang norbu puts out, I wish exile officials will take a approach and have a dialogue with them instead of banning them.
Jampa Tsering
.the western people and the people of the world are not fools. there will be those who will cry “witch hunting” and then the rest who will see it as it is. so stop with all that fear and beggarish mongering. I can understand that you want to worship your “protector” and want acceptance from your fellow tibetans. I can respect that.
tibetans have self confidence in their wisdom and strength in that knowledge not to have to play into pleasing so called” western sensibilites”.
what dreams may come,
lets be thankful that the other worldly protectors are not driven by narrow agenda. As for the dharmapala, they are there for the benefit of all sentient beings ,not just for tibetans. They dont discriminate.
Tenzin,
I agree with you. there are some groups and people in our society who take matters in their hand like that. Its almost like one can lose one’s humanity in situations like that. I feel for them.
Provocations of the Gyalpo
by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
In general one cannot say that the class of Gyalpo are always negative. There are also some important Gyalpo guardians. For example, Guru Padmasambhava gave the task of protecting the temple of Samye to Gyalpo Pehar. So it is not negative at all. But then, regarding the Gyalpo, there are different levels and it is very important for us to understand the character of the Gyalpo and how they create provocations because each of the eight classes has their own way of provocating.
The Gyalpo always provoke people with nervousness, confusion and being upset. These are the most important secondary causes through which the Gyalpo can provoke or disturb and for the person under their influence, confusion rises even more. So this is the provocation of Gyalpo in general.
For example, when I was younger, during my college years, I knew that Samye temple was very important. It was the only temple built during the time Padmasambava and the guardian of this temple is Gyalpo Pehar. So I thought that Gyalpo Pehar must be important. When I did the puja of the guardians, I always included Gyalpo Pehar. Then I also had the feeling that Gyalpo Pehar was good and that I had to do even more. But gradually I started to understood the characteristic of the provocation of the class of Gyalpo. When I did the practice of Gyalpo Pehar I observed that my confusion and nervousness increased. Then I thought that it would be better not to do this practice and since that time I haven’t done it anymore.
There also exists a Gyalpo, not of a high level like Gyalpo Pehar, but a bad spirit. (One can become a bad spirit particularly when one has received Vajrayana teaching and created some heavy samaya problems, then something bad happens and they become a bad spirit.) This kind of spirit becomes dependent on the class of Gyalpo. That means if they are a bit powerful they can become a kind of Gyalpo and can do something. Instead somebody less powerful becomes only a subject (victim) of the Gyalpo.
At the time of the 5th Dalai Lama there was a monk who broke his samaya in a very bad way and created lots of problems and at the end of his life he died very tragically and became a kind of Gyalpo. He became part of a group of Gyalpo. Later this Gyalpo manifested and some Gelugpa and Sakyapa lamas had contact with that spirit. And it seemed that that spirit helped them and served them so they considered him to be a good guardian. Then they invented a puja to have more contact with that spirit. Later the 5th Dalai Lama and Minlig Terchen, an important Nyingmapa lama, found out about this and said that this was a very bad spirit which shouldn’t be considered as a guardian, but should be eliminated. They performed many pujas in order to eliminate him but maybe they did not succeed very well.
Some Gelugpa Lamas continued to do pujas and particularly some very sectarian Gelugpa lamas believed that this Gyalpo was a very good guardian because he only protected the Gelugpa school and eliminated and controlled all the other schools. They believed that and continued to do more pujas and ask for more of these kinds of actions which seemed to work with the Gyalpo. Or at least they thought they did. And they went on like this for many centuries.
Some Lamas didn’t like what was happening and tried to go against this development, but without success. Then our present Dalai Lama told us that when he was young, one of his younger teachers taught him this practice of Gyalpo. The Gyalpo was called Gyalpo Shugden, it wasn’t just any kind of Gyalpo. He said that when he was young, he did this kind of puja for some years. But later when he studied the books of the 5th Dalai Lama, he found that it was something negative. And he discovered that this guardian had also disturbed the government of Tibet. Later on the Dalai Lama asked people for many years not to do this practice anymore, because it is very negative. That is true, because I know at least three or four people in my country, in particular one of my uncles at the Sakyapa monastery, who also did the Gyalpo practice. One of my uncles was a lama there and performed pujas in the Gyalpo temple for two or three years. In the end he had a very strong illness, his energy became disordered and he had a great many problems. I know three other lamas who performed pujas in the same temple and one after another each of them went mad. This was the influence of the Gyalpo. Sometimes it seems that for a short while the practice of Gyalpo helps – that is why many people do the Gyalpo puja – but in the real sense they get disturbed later on because when someone is connected with the Gyalpo, they are transformed and become subject to them. When these people die they become part of the class of Gyalpo. The life of a Gyalpo may last for five or six thousand years so for that reason it is considered something very negative.
But instead of following the advice of the present Dalai Lama some Gelugpa lamas went against him saying that this guardian is important and that they had to do this puja and this practice. They tried to develop this practice, particularly in China and Tibet: in Tibet there are many Gelugpa monasteries with Gyalpo temples. Then they made some propaganda and said that the Dalai Lama does not allow free religious practice. The Dalai Lama never said that he forbade them to do this practice; he simply advised them that it is not good. Everybody can give advice, why not? So when the Dalai Lama went to America, at the two or three different places he visited there were small groups with some Tibetan Gelugpa lamas and their western followers who protested saying: “The Dalai Lama denies us the right to free religion”. Of course the Chinese gave them a lot of support because they like it very much when Tibetans have disagreements among themselves.
So you have to be careful because now even in the western world these groups are trying to influence people saying they are spreading dharma teachings. You are always free to decide for yourselves, but you can receive negativities. In Italy this group is very influential because the second most important person who is against the Dalai Lama lives in Milan and it is the place where the practice of Gyalpo is being developed. If you have had some connection with these people you should do the practice of Guru Dragphur. By doing the practice of Guru Dragphur, you won’t receive the negative influence of the Gyalpo. But those who have already had a relationship with them should stop this relationship and should do the practice of Guru Dragphur otherwise they will find themselves with many problems later on. Or if somebody feels that these problems are already there come to me and I give you a kind of protection for not receiving these negativities.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Transcription: Antje d’Almeida
Shugden has been the subject of controversy from the day one. Among probably thousands of protector dieties or spirit or whatevern you want to call it, Shugden has been the only deity that is full of controversy. No standard Buddhist taxt book authenticate this diety. 18 volumes of Tsongkapa’s taxt books mentioned nothing about so called “protector of Kadhampa teaching”.
Shugden pratice became popular after Phaphongka Rinpoche and his well known students like Trijang Rinpoche. Unlike other Buddhist practice or worship, Shugden followers have some sort of missionary act to promote Shugden practice. For such reason, Shugden practice flourished in our society not because it has anything extraordinary. Trijang Rinpoche introduced Shugden practice to Dalai Lama when Dalai Lama was really young. It is believed once you started worshiping Shugden you can not stop otherwise Shugden will haunt you to harm. What kind of Buddhist deity is this?
No matter what, we must all rely on logical reasons as Buddha himself taught for us. Head of the Bhudist School of Dialectic in Dharamsala exchanged the aruguments through booklets and articles with Shugden followers in its early stage of controversy in our society. He recieved repeated threatening letters from Shugden followers. Consequently he was murdered along with his two students in 1997. Because they could not challege him through logical reasons.
You be the judge where you stand.
“The life of a Gyalpo may last for five or six thousand years so for that reason it is considered something very negative.”
Ok buddy geluk sect is only 500 or 600 yrs old! So u re telling me we gotta deal with this gyalpo for another 6000 years because no one could eliminate him. Not the great 5th Dalai Lama nor the great nyingma master min lig terchen. U gotta be very careful when u make proclamations like that, let me explain, an enlightened being or bodhisattva loses fight to a gyalpo as it cannot eliminate it and will go on for 5000 years. Logic has always been linked to Buddhism or was it Socrates. But I hope u see that logic. R u condemning the worship or selling it. Then u go on to say if u don’t like this product and wanna stop it. U cannot just say no and stop. U have to buy this new product guru dragphur to help u in the process of stopping it. Now we need to do research on GUru dragphur and hopefully he is not a crazy gyalpo or something else. Y can’t u see the logic in all this that the more u demonize this gyalpo the more popularity it gains and the more credibility u give. An argument on religion holds true to who is arguing in regards to it. There is no such thing as absolute truth. That is why constitutions state the obvious. Freedom of religion. Basically saying live and let live.
When an individual states his opinion it is an opinion. When a govt states an opinion it’s a law. So when as a govt post stuff on their website condemning it, that means discrimination. So stop all this bs about there is actually no ban or this or that. Tib govt if they feel that way should then reach out to the minority and clear up the problem. Again free world states “all men are born equal…
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” This statement in the US constitution is very well known. This is exactly the reason why there is minority rights because we believe in equality and so we have to bring peeps to the same level to give them the equality platform. Now give me instances that Tib govt doing any such outreach at all!! If they have then I and many others don’t know about it and they should advertise that. If no then they bloody hell start working on it cause at the end of all this tib blood is tib blood wether its bonpo nyingma Kargyu Christian Muslim geluk or geluk shugden. I don’t y it’s called a cult!! But that’s another argument.
Who on earth would give respect to that Crazy injee nun for her unreasonable bluffing?Specially person of high stature but King of humanity compassionately gave her chance to talk sense through peaceful dialogue but that injee nun obviously did not know other than few crammed up slogans with her intention to defame His Holiness .Haha you did not succeed because western world knew His Holiness for many decades that they found that injee nun psycho……..
http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-thubten-jigme-norbu
wat the hell
Shugden will die a natural death or be more easily tamed if all people stop the worship. right now He is too much boosted with ego and power with all the feeding and offering from those worshippers. what does he care or know, he has no discernment only fixated on the one thing on his mind at the time of death. should release him from this bondage or he will feed off for more centuries.
Awww man! Seriously are we even talking about the same stuff. I thought we were trying to reach a platform so we can unite and respect each other despite what our beliefs are. Now I see why the holy war for jerusalem was fought and why there was a partition of India into three countries. Peeps never learn!! Sad ?
I find it very interesting reading all the posts on different forums etc from Shugden and non-Shugden followers. If we check with wisdom we can see in general that the speech of those following the Dalai Lama is quite degenerate, provocative and lacking compassion. Where as those following Dorje Shugden seem much more polite, compassionate and courteous. Sorry this is only my observation.
What does this tell us?
Thubten jigme Norbu vs Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-thubten-jigme-norbu
http://www.tricycle.com/special-section/an-interview-with-geshe-kelsang-gyatso
http://www.tricycle.com/two-sides-of-the-same-god
SIMON DOOTSON: ” those following Dorje Shugden seem much more polite, compassionate and courteous” Perhaps the politeness comes from the costly PR agency NKT hires: Schillings in London. For £400-450 hourly rate, I can be polite too
https://www.schillings.co.uk/comment
I guess you did not read my samples (posts 72 & 83) of a few of blatantly racist comments from the dolgyal cult website–for example the wealthy but outrageously ignorant redneck David Thomas Canada who calls Tibetans “dungeaters” HHDL according to the NKT revamped hate site the “worst dictator in the world” I would have thought there are more suitable canditates for that title, like perhaps Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
Why the Obsessive emphasis by NKT KADAMPA on PURITY of their teachings?
Who are the POLLUTANTS that they speak of?
That their high caste teachings will be polluted by the untouchable low caste teachings. This is the vocabulary of the caste system. NKT kadampa discriminates along the lines of this abominable caste system.
Stop this DISCRIMINATION and FREE the teachings from the underlying NEGATIVITY ; LIES and covert agenda of SUPERIORITY!!
TSUNDDRU: According to the Topiwallah people, Pobankha Dechen Nyingpoand his student Khyabje Trijang Rinpoche are incapable of making any mistake, a sort of papal infallibility.
However…In the 1930’s, the evangelist Pabongkha had a patron-priest relationship with Liu Wenhui 刘文辉, an opium dealing Chinese warlord who brutally invaded Kham killing untold Tibetans. Pabongkha supported the secular ambitions of the warlord in exchange for support for the establishment of the supremacy of the Gelug in Kham. He preached many times for Liu Wenhui and his supporters and some of these sermons and letters are preserved in writing.
In his 2011 book ‘Tibet: A History’, Sam van Schaik writes: “in his sermons to the warlord– also to the warlord’s wife, who had been particularly impressed by the charismatic monk– the sectarian Pabongka explained the supremacy of the Gelug philosophical approach and the shortcomings of the other schools.” Furthermore, Van Schaik’s analysis reveals that Pabongkha tried to lure Liu Wenhui, an extremely wealthy major drug dealer, into promoting Gelug sect hegemony. Pabongka writes to Liu Wenhui: “there are many in Tibet who are deeply attached to false schools…In your territory, if you were to establish anew the essence of Buddha’s teaching, the teachings of Tsongkhapa, then your good luck would be such that hundreds of millions of gods like Brahma and Indra could not compete with it”
Now regarding matters of religion: “Instead of Tsongkhapa, (Phabongkhapa) replaced the central guru figure with himself and the main protector of the Gelugpa, the Dharma-King Damchen Chögyal (Skt: Yama Dharmaraja), was replaced with Dorje Shxxxen.”
–quoted from ‘Exorcising Luther: Confronting the demon of modernity in Tibetan Buddhism’,
by Simon Francis Stirling Daisley, University of Canterbury, 2012.
So in my view Pobangkha was an egocentric sectarian, tainted with drug money and definitely a traitor to his countrymen.
Purity? i don’t think so!
Further to this post, I am quoting Julio Springer Pitanga the cult website:
“…the hostility against Dorje Shxxxen comes not only from the side of the Dalai and his Nyingmapa and rime medieval witch-hunting sectarianist associates, but also from their bosses, the Westerner imperialists, themselves already unhappy since the 30s of the last century with the good relationship between Pabongkha Rinpoche and the patriotic warlord Liu Wenhui, a major obstacle to the British penetration into Tibet.”
My response: Patriotic to whom? Liu Wenhui (Pobangkha’s foreign patron) invaded sovereign Tibetan territory, brutally killing and terrorizing everything in his path. Moreover, that Liu Wenhui was a major opium dealer is beyond doubt–there are numerous academic studies that document this fact.
So just how lucrative was the illegal drug trade in the 1930’s? Below is a description of Liu Wenhui’s residence, now a museum:
“The former residence of Liu Wenhui, covering an area of more than 40 mu, a gross area of 23,833㎡, a floor area of 8,626㎡ and holding 27 courtyards and 200 rooms, was started to construct in 1938 and completed in 1942. It is twin mansion combined by 2 gates both of which have courtyards, gardens, tennis courts, etc. inside. Besides, there are pavilions for moon watching, opera performance stage, treasure house, etc. Characteristics of feudalistic mansions and features of Western castles form the unique style of the mansion and make it a representative modern architecture combining both Chinese and Western elements.”
http://www.jc-museum.cn/en/m4_41.html
No wonder the traitorous Pobangkha pursued drug dealer with such ardor!
i read somewhere that this David Thomas, founder of Western Shugden Society is a convicted pedophile. is it true?
TENZING : I don’t know about that, he married the heiress to the Eli Lilly Pharmaceutical fortune, they make a drug that is bigger than Viagra in its class. He is Italian-American and was quite the hippy back in the day, claiming on his Facebook page to have smoked up with Jimi Hendrix in Morocco, although the story may be apocryphal.
I do know that an American dolgyal monk who lives in Shar Ganden is a convicted felon. His former name was ‘Duke’ but now calls himself Losang Tenpa. He was a drug addict that assaulted a police officer. I don’t know how he got a long term visa to India with his record and I’m not sure he is the ideal person to be teaching young Tibetan trapas.
post #106 line # 3: rime means non-sectarian in Tibetan. So Julio doesn’t fully know what he is talking about.
“It is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts… For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” – Patrick Henry
Where did Shugden follower get this statistic of 4 million Shugden follower. Isn’t that a big fat lies.
The total population of Tibet is only 6 million. There four sects plus Bonpo. If we were to assume that 50% of them are Geluk. That makes only 3 million. There is very small section among Geluk that practice Dolgyal.
see this web
http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/dc/2014/03/07/dalai-lama-protest-national-cathedral/6166593/?hpt=us_bn8
KARZE: Thats a great point! I have challenged this wild statistic before: there is no way it is even remotely close to reality. There are perhaps a handful of people who do this practice in Mongolia, zero in Bhutan guaranteed, a few in Switzerland I guess, and we know with the trend to going abroad, the Tibetan exile population in India and Nepal is clearly declining. Chatreng is a small place, they have a few Dolgyal families for sure. The Communist census taken at invasion time was underestimated, I think if one were to look all the Tibetan diaspora worldwide it would be challenging to even find the usual figure of 6 million. Does anyone have better information?
…maybe we are supposed to count millions of mosquitoes or something.
i am confused now. what is RELIGIOUS FREEDOM? is it the freedom to practice what you have learned or belief or has to do something with pad on the back or hugging or kindergarten kids complaining about others not smiling at him or her.
however, this discriminatory behaviour needs to be stopped and its quite easy to solve.there is no need to protest ..just have a chat with SHEEGO or SANEY LHEKHUNG.
Those people who persecuted Shugden followers in South India by denying them medical and business services should be proud of their accomplishment now. Putting up those signs which is reminiscent of Jim Crow laws. Don’t call yourselves Buddhists after kicking down on those who have fallen.
Besides there are people waiting eagerly to tarnish His Holiness’s reputation you provided them with the tools with your un-Buddhist conduct. I don’t think Buddha meant for his religion to degenerate this far. I don’t remember reading anywhere that Buddha taught his followers to indulge in deity wars. This drama is beginning to resemble gore and carnage in Hindu mythology comic books. I wonder which oracle has bigger chakra with sharper edges for beheading his opponent.
I know this topic drives Jamyang Norbu-la mental, so this will be my last post.
My question to those who want to settle differences with the Dolgyal faction is this: Since their Pobangkha took drug money in the 1930’s until today, the Topiwallah worshippers have enjoyed Chinese money: Gangchen, Zawa, Nga Lama Kundeling, Trijang Chocktrul and his brother Jamyang, Shar Ganden, Pomra and who knows who else have abandoned the CTA completely and turned their back on any shread of loyalty to the Tibetan cause. The manufactured ‘freedom of religion’ scam is an international commodity that is a hugely lucrative money magnet. Who is going to pay them more than the international sponsors they already have? Don’t fool yourself, its all about money and they will milk it for another few decades while you dream that they are our fellow Tibetans.
They have gone to the dark side and won’t come back.
John Makransky a professor of Buddhism and Comparative Theology at Boston College nailed it when he wrote, “some Tibetan monks who now introduce Westerners to practices centred on a native Tibetan deity, without informing them that one of its primary functions has been to assert hegemony over rival sects! The current Dalai Lama, seeking to combat the ancient, virulent sectarianisms operative in such quarters, has strongly discouraged the worship of the “protector” deity known as Dorje Shugden, because one of its functions has been to force conformity to the dGe lugs pa sect (with which the Dalai Lama himself is most closely associated) and to assert power over competing sects. Western followers of a few dGe lugs pa monks who worship that deity, lacking any critical awareness of its sectarian functions in Tibet, have recently followed the Dalai Lama to his speaking engagements to protest his strong stance (for non-sectarianism) in the name of their “religious freedom” to promulgate, now in the West, an embodiment of Tibetan sectarianism. If it were not so harmful to persons and traditions, this would surely be one of the funniest examples of the cross-cultural confusion that lack of critical reflection continues to create.”
–Makransky, John J. (2000). “Buddhist Theology: Critical Reflections by Contemporary Buddhist Scholars”, p. 20, Routledge
Correction: I’m in Sera Mey monastery where the majority of the Shugden followers lived before the monastery was divided into two factions in 2008. And I must add that during the difficult period when the whole of Tibet was marshal – lawed by the PRC in 2008 and all the Tibetans everywhere in the world stood up against China and protested, except for the Shugden cults. I am not saying that this is the proof that they are funded by the Chinese but it did seem odd. Even if they were against the DL and CTA institutions for reasons best know to themselves, why in the name of Buddha were they against the Tibetan people in general or Tibet herself. Even prior to that period they seldom took part in such activities citing of course that they are only spiritual and won’t mingle with politics notwithstanding the fact they took part in criminal activities. After we divided our properties and separated to each other’s own way they still try barge into our prayer halls for Prayers that has meals and monetary offerings and when there were prayers for the deceased and oppressed in Tibet they were nowhere to be seen and this shows that it is not about spiritualism either.
Pardon my grammar, it usually sucks and this small screen iPhone makes it even more difficult .
While Dolgyal group are protesting against religious freedom but they fail to protest against the Chinese who are the real threat to freedom including religion.
Just look at the streets of Tibet which look more like an war town. These picture and notes are blogged by Chinese tourist in Tibet.
http://www.savetibet.org/newsroom/has-life-here-always-been-like-this/weibo-appendix/
Dolgyal group are not surprise by chines action because Chines don’t believe in religion but they are surprise by action of dalai lama because he talks about compassion in the west but he acts none compassionately towards tibetan particularly to anyone who believe in Dolgyal.
@119 Why are they using word Chinese liberated Tibet but they come into exile as refugees.
The Dalai Lama is not stopping Dolgyal group to worship Buddha.
Isn’t Buddha that is all its matters for honest Buddhist not some spirit or some deva that matters.
Even the tourist Chinese, describe Tibetans as terorrist!!!
If so..then what we can call all these blood sucker People Liberation army!!!
Terrorist Chinese only knows the language of guns!!!
if that so..we have to speak there language..this is the only language they know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xw-la2_-Yw&index=2&list=FLQkkhoPk6we2xb8w3ZCBv7g
I hate to admit that there is some truth to what that person was saying.
Now the possibility of scary old women shaking their pangdens at me is a scary thought which makes me wish I didn’t say what I just said.
Namkha:
It is very telling that you resort to the type of portrayal. The events you mention happened over 25 years ago. In fact, it was due to my difficult teen-age years that brought the Buddha-Dharma into my life.
I do not involve myself in this type of discussion much but thought it best to clarify.
The people I choose to interact with do not condemned or judge me by mistakes that happened 25 years ago. Had I been a perfect teen-ager, I probably would not have found the Dharma, so for that, I am thankful.
Cheers
@ Lobsang Tenpa la
thank you. i’m feeling negativity fatigue, i’m sure lots others, so good to hear that.
oh i think i spoke too soon.
seems Sikyong Sangay and Lobsang Wangyal reality show is not going to end anytime soon.
Doctor! Doctor!, Gimme the news I got a bad case of loving you, no pill’s gona cure my ill. I’ve gotta bad case of loving youuuu!!!
It seems the Love Guru, Mr Pink pants fell madly in love with Mr Tibet Lob Sangay, to have and to hold, beyond 2016,(avows he)and after ten years, if need be, Dharamsala will produce a mysterious letter allegedly signed by hundreds, if not thousands of Tibetans in Tibet, demanding, Silkyong Sangay for Life!
Lobsang Wangyal claims Dr. Lobsang Sangay stands for the common man, that he is the best thing that could have happened to us Tibetans, vivifying and salubrious,indeed, an ICON.(Shades of the Second Coming)
What if, after his 2nd term, the good doctor still hasn’t even managed a dialogue with China?
Exactly – and thank you!
Tashi Gyatso – i’m guessing that the Tibetan Shugden practicioners would gladly support the call for Tibetan autonomy/freedom if they thought they’d be welcome in the crowd… showing their face probably feels like a risk to them at the moment…
Jampa Tsering – right on!
Now CCP is enforcing worship of chinese wordly deities!!
LOSANG TENPA: Now that I have your attention please tell if Shar Ganden will publish a proper financial statement, in particular disclosing what percentage of its assets (including funding for its buildings (and donations came from the People’s Republic of China?
Thank you.
I reiterate its all about the money.
Here are some raw data on donations uncovered through CitizenAudit.org
Donations to NKT from the Pillsbury dough-boy:
HARRIET PILLSBURY FOUNDATION – OF CITRUS CO. Check 02/17/2011 1306 1,000 00 1.000 00 Total HOSPICE FOUNDATION OF CITRUS CO 1.000 00 0 00 1,000 00 CHARITABLE KADAMPA MEDITATION CENTRE … Check 02/15/2011 1301 19,000 00 19,000 00 Total KADAMPA MEDITATION CENTRE 19,000 00 00 19,000 00 EDUCATIONAL KADAMPA MEDITATION CTR-INTL TEMPLES PROJ … Check 06/22/201 1 1329 20,000 00 20.000 00 Total KADAMPA MEDITATION CTR-INTL TEMPLES PRC 20,000 00 0 00 20,000 00 EDUCATIONAL LIFE SKILLS Check 10/
ED AND H PILLSBURY FOUNDATION – FUND 1.000 00 CHARITABLE INTERNATIONAL TMEPLE PROJECT OF KADAMPA Check 11/01/2010 1103 INTERNATIONAL TMEPLE PROJECT OF KADAMPA 25.000 00 Total … INTERNATIONAL TMEPLE PROJECT OF KADAMPA 25.000 00 RELIGIOUS LES AMIS Check 10/20/2010 1179 LES AMIS 5.000 00 Total LES AMIS 5.000 00 CHARITABLE
ED AND H PILLSBURY FOUNDATION – /2012 1377 10,000 00 Total CAMARILLA UNITED METHODIST C 10,000 00 RELIGIOUS KADAMPA MEDITATION CENTER Check 01/23/2012 1255 20,000 00 Check 03 … /22/2012 1277 10,000 00 Check 06/20/2012 1306 20,000 00 Total KADAMPA MEDITATION CENTER 50,000 00 RELIGIOUS MISSOURI BAPTIST HOME Check 03/22/2012
? Namkah wats your agenda? You wanted peeps to call threaten and harrass that nun including attempting to put in her phone num and address. Then u went off by proclaiming that not only shugden is bad but the geluk masters such as pabhonkha are drug dealers and in cahoots with mass murderers staining and portraying the geluk lineage in a completely negative light. I don’t know how this helps the cause or his holiness then u state it’s all Money from Chinese and then go on a raw data rampage on donations from pillsbury dough boy???? And donations to a monastery. Do u listen to the news at all. Tibetan govt wants to be a part of china and under china. I surely hope u know what that means so u gotta cut this shit about chinese spy and all and money. It’s another thing that china does not want to deal with beggars. This is after u stated that it would be your last article. Man I gotta say your methods are very divisive illogical and stereotypical and it has as always absolutely nothing to do with unity, tibet autonomy or rangzen or the topic at hand. You don’t want this issue settled with topiwalas as u mentioned so wat do u want thousands protesting against his holiness wherever he goes internationally and showcasing his holiness andtibetan exile govt,s democracy and freedom of religion ( and please none of this its not a religion its spirit crap) in a negative aspect. in all your study u probably have seen this saying “an eye for an eye ….. ” or in laymen terms you give shit u get shit. or the other approach give them the freedom and then the balls on their court.Now I’m sure as always you would like to have a last word (before u say something Shakespeare once said l” it’s better to be a wise fool than a foolish wise.” )
SARAH MORGAN (No. 39) writes “We have nothing against the Dalai Lama per se” and then gives us cult propaganda web addresses that claim HHDL is, in their view, the “worst dictator in the modern world”. Oh really?–I would have thought Bashar Hafez al-Assad or perhaps Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin would be a better choice for that distinction. As for No. 38 “The combination of the subject and the predicate is called “probandum”” ….well Bimbisara dude, bullshit baffles brains.
My own agenda here is not important, please do you own research but anyone who think we can accommodate those on the payroll of a foreign power are simply dreaming of “unity” and I guess you must have missed this news from seven years ago: the Communist Party of China has enacted comprehensive legislation to control recognition of all reincarnate tulkus in their domain. They have already installed a newly minted Zemey, Reting and hundreds of others…not just the phony Panchen.
“In one of history’s more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is “an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation.” But beyond the irony lies China’s true motive: to cut off the influence of the Dalai Lama, Tibet’s exiled spiritual and political leader, and to quell the region’s Buddhist religious establishment more than 50 years after China invaded the small Himalayan country. By barring any Buddhist monk living outside China from seeking reincarnation, the law effectively gives Chinese authorities the power to choose the next Dalai Lama”
See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/22/china-bans-reincarnation-_n_61444.html
Another’s word on NKTat present
“Why protest now? Well, in 1996, after Gen Thubten Gyatso (Neil Elliot) was found to have sexually abused his assistant, Kelsang Gyatso told his followers to protest against the Dalai Lama to distract NKT members from the internal scandal. In 2008, following the scandal that errupted around Gen Samden Gyatso (Steve Wass) and his ‘sexual lineage’, Kelsang Gyatso told his followers to protest against HH Dalai Lama to distract NKT members from the internal scandal and those that followed, including Kelsang Lodro (Dave Everard).
Now what? What does Kelsang want to distract his followers from now?
The most difficult time for any cult is when the leader dies. Maybe this new lot of protests is getting ready for that, preparing his legacy and keeping his followers united against the enemy.”
–from
http://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2014/02/27/kelsangs-monks-and-nuns-protest-accusing-the-dalai-lama-of-religious-persecution-and-human-rights-abuses/#comment-35947
By the way Kelsang Norden’s name and location is out and not by me, if she did not want publicity she should have thought first before planning to ‘ambush’ Kundun.
Many countries have come together to scour the vast Indian Ocean for the lost Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 with hundreds of people on board, but, to date, still missing.
This is a perfect opportunity for CTA and Dr. Lobsang Sangay to launch the State Oracle into action. The State Oracle enjoys a privileged position within the Tibetan socio political spheres due exclusively to his reputation. Its time now for him to put his money where his mouth is.
It can only help the image of Tibet if one of our inestimable oracles arcanely discovered the jet that the high-tech military world failed to find. Such a discovery would add greater lustre and prestige to His Holiness and Doctor Lobsang Sangay.
It’s literally a win win situation for the Nechung Oracle, Tibetan Buddhism and CTA.
Failing to take this easy opportunity to help the Tibetan cause, as well as save lives, would say alot about the Nechung oracle.
It would prove, once again, for the unteemth time, how utterly useless oracles are in general, at producing anything of substance.
Why Nechung ask Shugden whom the followers believe him to be Buddha.
lol yes, what dreams might come, that is excellent idea. Let the spirits battle it out!
WHAT DREAMS MAY COME
I like your idea, its good
either by discovering how useless nechung is, or benefiting the confused world by the missing plane
but I don;t think CTA even willing to take such action, they too, are very useless
If Tibet was open to the outside world a several hundred years earlier our oracles may be enjoying the peace and quiet of the oracle at Delphi and our gods and goddesses will be enriching our intellectual spheres and not interfering with our souls.
Yeah Lhasang, I know its a damn good idea, I thought of it, didn’t I?
Anyway too late now to take advantage of the situation as I’ve read on Jerry Coyne’s blog, “UPDATE: The New York Daily News has revealed that the Malaysian government has now recruited witch doctors to help find the missing plane”
WEIT even has a bizarre picture of a shaman at the airport offering up two coconuts. I am not sure what that signifies, maybe the missing jet loves coconuts. http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/uri-geller-gets-into-the-malaysia-airlines-act/malaysia-plane/
CTA will not take such an action because CTA obviously has no confidence in the Nechung Oracle (or any oracle for that matter)as a solution for solving difficult social and political issues. Thats why I say, in the political sphere, The Nechung is as useless as male nipples, and therefore should not be accorded any place in the Tibetan Constitution.
Seriously, why the hell do we need a State Oracle for? Tradition? Is that all? To maintain an empty tradition which most educated people don’t believe in anyway?
I certainly don’t agree with you that CTA is useless, much less, “very” useless. Indeed, you might mean, in the big picture, with reference to reclaiming Tibet which was stolen by China, exile government is “very useless.” There you may have a point. There, even the powerhouse USA seem powerless to help resolve.
Reading various news articles just in the last few days, such as, “Tibetan Parliament honours Indian Tibet supporters” or “Dharamshala observes 55th Tibetan Women’s Uprising Day” or, “Tibetan PM declares 2014 as His Holiness the Dalai Lama Year” or ” Dalai Lama inaugurates new Tibetan Parliament building”, and so on…
CTA looks to be doing the little things to keep the struggle going, mainly with a robust PR campaign.
Every little thing helps and we need to appreciate that if we want to be objective, to judge fairly. To constantly over look the little positive things is to miss the big picture altogether.
Certainly, when it comes to things like the sham Democracy of exile or mixing religion and politics, I am a vociferous critic, but ofcourse, that does not mean that I feel CTA or His Holiness or Doctor Lobsang Sangay are useless, if I seriously thought that, I am doing no more than indulging in my own selfishness, and while that benefits me psychologically, its “very useless” in benefiting the society as a whole.
I am not concerned with Western Shugden Group but with Tibetan worshippers.
The Injis will put on robes like a fashion and will throw away it any time. Their minds are fickle like teenager going through transition.
Karze: What about the Asians? The cult website that attacks the CTA daily operates out of Malaysia. Its participants are mostly ethnic Chinese in Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Bangkok and so forth. NKT and this lot, as well as NAGBA who insist they are not funded by China but back the fake Panchen and CPC have now all joined forces, as evidenced by the recent US demonstrations: all the usual suspects were there. I’m not so sure its so easy to separate them.
By the way, regarding the American “Losang Tenpa” (No. 126) although he said “I do not involve myself in this type of discussion much” he has logged 661 posts on the cult website, so he is quite a chattering monk.
Why is CTA debating this issue and issuing a resolution against Shugden followers, thus adding more ammunition to the Shugden proponents. I think this is HHDL devious way of driving our focus away from Tibet’s independence that has been gathering steam of late. In the process, we look like fools that belong in the middle ages, I mean, c’mon! We’re talking about spirits for god sake! How can you expect China to take us serious when we are embroiled in such silliness! If I’m the Chairman, I would see this proof that these people really did needed to be liberated and the religious influence seriously diminised for the good of society!
tenzin bhutia
will said!! I agree with you!!!
the issue of dorje shugden makes tibetan looks like a stone age society!!! its damage tibet issue too much!!!
also I doubt if one of the motivation of HHDL on speaking against dorje shugden is a way to shift the attention of his failed middle way, and make tibetan throw there frustration on other issue!!!!
Lhasang la,
This is the result of mixing faith and politics. HHDL might have exercised his right to his religious beliefs, but as a leader for all Tibetans, he should have known better and in fact, I suspect he knew the extent that this schism would create. My issue is why? There is a nefarious plot behind all of this and the other issues he has gotten himself into like the 2 Karmapa thing. Whenever I see CTA in action and I see the monks in there, it makes me sick. What is their agenda? Putting their constituants (monastic community) first? Maybe they see themselves as protector of the faith? That’s why I am pissed with Tibetan politics. I’ve given up on exiled leaders a while back. I don’t support CTA and right now, there is no one representing my ideals. Not even Rangzen Alliance, since they want to see the return of HHDL prestige. Tibet was not created by Buddhist. We’ve existed and actually thrived before buddhism. But our existance goes even beyond that for thousands of years as our genetic makeup suggest. I don’t buy anymore Dhasa propagandas. China killed us, and we put the nail in our own coffins!
Tenzin Bhutia: You seem to wish to ally yourself with the dolgyal cultists, who publish anti-Tibetan hate attacks on a daily basis:
Here is a sample of a post from today:
“The Dalai Lama is a clear specimen of the so-called ”Jekyll and Hyde personality”.
He furiously engages in relentless religious persecution while hidden from the Western public, but plays the supercool tolerant, peaceful saint while appearing in front of the same Western public.
His capacity to lie and deceive is immense, which may result from his two identities being unaware of each other and compartmentalized knowledge and memories, symptoms of the so-called ”dissociative personality disorder” or ”multiple personality disorder”, popularly known as schizophrenia.
Such morbid condition is often resultant of sexual abuse traumas, which is consistent with the extreme attachment shown by the Dalai Lama towards his first childhood tutor Reting, known for his sexual debauchery, and therefore possibly an homosexual pedophile as well, which is all the more likely in a corrupt monastic environment,..such as the old Tibet’s Potala Palace.”
Do you really want to ‘unite’ with these people? I don’t, they are totally creepy.
Actually, you are creepier. I don’t know who wrote that and it certainly doesn’t look like something a Tibetan would write. Maybe its those crazy inji’s that are worshipping a tibetan lama like some cult, so I blame tibetan lamas. But what do you expect. If someone tells you something offensive about what you believe, won’t you be offended. HHDL is only getting what he deserved because he created all of this.
BTW, I’m atheist if you couldn’t figure it out, but I respect all faiths as long as they don’t harm anyone. More importantly, I am totally against the mixing of politics and religion. HHDL’s job is to lead all Tibetans regardless of their province, faith or sexual orientaion. If he has an issue about it such as it goes against his belief, then he is not fit for the job. My job is to hold him to account for his failed Tibet policies and the deep divide he has caused in our exile communities. He is not fit and the sooner we all realize this, the sooner we can take the appropriate measures to deal with it.
@152: The Shugden controversy is result of eroding of Geluk hold on political power or hegemony after 1959.
In Tibet before 1959 Abbot of Gaden, Sera and Drepung Geluk held strong influence on Tibetan government. Geluks abbot’s nod is must for all important state decision. Given the strong religious influence of the government by Geluk Clergy – as a result Oracle such as Nechung, Shugden played an important role. Even Tibetan laity have their own family spirit (Yul Lha) which are propitiated yearly even to this day.
But in exile Geluk’s control over government eroded with the passage of time when democratic process began sixties.
The delisting of Gaden Ngamchoe from official holiday list is one and another is installing Guru Rinpoche statue in Tsuglak Khang in Dharamsala.
Tenzin bhutia,
Dalai lama has this unenviable job of holding all his people together, all sects together and same time saving tibetan culture, upholding basic buddhist teachings and facing china wrath at same time.its not easy job. even if one had all modern education and training and skilled in diplomacy and communcation, its a difficult task. so keep that in mind.
Now i wonder how your stand would be if Shugden was at the helm and some real discrimination and disharmony was going on under his auspices? Then would you be against “tibetan Lamas” and denounce your “diety protector”?
When i read about the venemous things that the Shugden people write about Tibetans in general and Tibet, it leaves us no choice but to denounce them. Mind you, they are not standing up for the rights of any Tibetans, they are more concerned with “purity” of the tradition and against DL’s inclusiveness.
Yeah people can go ahead and sing “shugden is bad” “other spirits are good” to the tune of Nero’s harp and let the Tibetans in Tibet burn themselves to smithereens. Every one is an expert on Shugden people but hardly any one would use few seconds of their lives to write a word for Tibetans who are self immolating on their social media pages.
#152.where is your brain located..nyangtsar! you are blaming lama for being followed by your so called inji crazy.And nobody here give a rat kup on what you are..atheist or otherwise.who are u to give a JOB to HHDL BTW. YOU ARE one creepy J.A.
#151
That quote is a repulsive and irrational rant of a lunatic. I agree with Tenzin Bhutia that it is probably written by some deranged person. Although I won’t go far as to say that it must be written only by injis. Every group has crazy people in their midst. Maybe instead of propagating their rants by pasting it everywhere rebut it effectively on the page you found it and leave it there.
Tenzin Bhutia
I agree with most of your views, I am also sharp criticizer of HHDL.
but, however, I still think that HHDL must remain only prestigious head of Tibet, like the constitutional King, but shouldn’t interfere in politics..its enough, we have his middle way enough time and more. and its clearly wasting of Time, and China enjoy this too much
I respect that you atheist, But I don’t agree that Buddhism is the reason behind our suffering, I think the Dharma is misused, and the misused of Dharma is the most dangerous thing ever!!!!
for example, Dharma has been used heavily by CTA and may be HHDL to drugged Tibetans, whenever there Tibetan revolting, the CTA said don’t protest loudly!! don’t take action!!! its might hurt the feeling of Chinese!!! therefore, you are violent!! breaking Ahimsa!!!! this is not Buddhism, this is the dangerous misused of Dharma!!!
Dawa: “it is probably written by some deranged person” Yes, and that goes back to the original question of security: what if some crazy person were to attack throwing ink, or even acid? Terrible question but it needs to be asked.
It is said: “Complacency and deliberate silence come down to complicity”
Those who are disgusted with politics should actually get more involved (not less), and make it better. Otherwise stop whining about those who try to serve the community. I commend CTA for making a clear statement about this issue.
You say “rebut it effectively on the page you found it and leave it there.”
I tried several time to register on the cult website to comment and am always refused, they are not running an open forum like Shadow Tibet, but an ‘echo chamber’ that is like a hen house–one chicken goes ‘braaak’ and they all chime in: ‘braaakbraaakbraaak’
Namkhah,
“Those who are disgusted with politics should actually get more involved (not less), and make it better. Otherwise stop whining about those who try to serve the community”
Look what happened to Karma Chomphel and TYC and some others like that. You know very well the pervading political environment in our society. It can be quite stifling. so in the meantime the opportunists take full advantage. thats why i dont think its fair to say what you said above. i think its best that everyone do their own best in whatever way they can for now.
Namkhah you believe in the existence of good and evil deities or you are against injii dogyal worshipers because you think doygal is evi? HOw can tibetans get involved and make our politics better that you are suggesting? How does this dogyal controversy serve the community? Would tibetan poltics be better off without religious controversies or better? what you think?
TENZINGLA, RANGZENWALLA: Thanks for the great questions. I remember some years back my late friend who was angry around the time of the Thirteen Groups scandal. He ended up concluding that despite the problems there are with (what was then called) Tibetan Government in Exile, its still ours and we have to try to make it better. I think this is a positive attitude.
Is Dolgyal evil? Well, according to the Yellow Book, which was dictated by Phowangka’s student Khyabje Trijang Rinpoche and published by Zemey Tulku many prominent Tibetans were put to death by the rGyalpo. Nebesky-Wojkowitz describes on page 142 “A great number of various substances is offered to Dxxx Sxxxxat the time of his worship: heart blood in which yellow-red bubbles rise one after the other, quivering flowers made out of the organs of the five senses, expanding clouds of smoke which rise from the burnt offering of white incense and and the smouldering “great meat”; the fire of the lamp made of human fat and having a wick of human hair. The strongly smelling liquid consisting of brain, blood and bile (etc)…” Kinda sounds like a demon to me.
Referring to Lokesh Chandra’s standard reference work on Buddhist Iconography which has a total of 2,503 images of Tibetan Buddhist deities
–including the (Gelug) Beijing Three Hundred Icons,
the (Gelug) 500 Icons of Narthang,
and the (Gelug) Pantheon of the Mongolian Kangyur
…yet no image (0) can be found in iconography texts of the rGyalpo in discussion here Here we can also note the Dege, Narthang, Beijing and Manchurian versions of the Kangyur and Tangyur do not contain mention of this obscure and new rGyalpo at all, therefore one can only conclude “he” must be very obscure indeed and not terribly historically important.
Nevertheless the important point is that HHDL has been extremely helpful the Bonpos, Jonangpas and Muslims for example to have the freedom to maintain their own heritage. Gelugpa hegemony, as proposed by Trijang Rinpoche at the meeting of religious leaders in Dalhousie in 1962(?)
http://mrtn.home.xs4all.nl/lama1a.jpg
You’ve probably seen the historic picture in people’s homes. Basically the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa Rangjung Rikpe Dorje, Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdral Yeshe Dorje and HH Sakya Trindzin at that meeting said no way are we going to be subsumed under the Gelug hierarchy. Chatral Sangyay Dorje and the Sakya scholar T.G. Dhongthog Rinpoche have written books condemning the sectarian cult of Phobangka.
So I support Rime approach to ensure all the diverse Tibetan lineages survive and if you are athesist or Marxist like Bapa Phunwang that’s fine too. You know many of these dolgyal people claim to have been shunned, but I have also been socially shunned by them, their kids and their families since they imagine I am HHDL’s supporter…so it works both ways.
Namkhah I am not asking you what the buddhist yellow book, white book, red book says of deities, I am asking do you personally believe in deities?
I believe they are only imaginary. One does mental visualization exercises in some occasions for specific results at a certain level but when you snap your fingers ‘they’ are gone. There are no gods in Buddhism.
Tibetan government in exile are doing the CCP Job in Taiwan!!!!
accuse the Taiwan-Tibet support group of seeking Tibet independence!!!! and seeking Taiwanese independence!!!!!
creating ire amongst the Taiwanese members!!!
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=34715&article=Taiwan+Tibet+support+group+%27hurt%27+by+CTA+official%27s+remarks&t=1&c=1
aren’t I said before its the time to do prolonged protest infront of CTA??? so they could understand that there policy are rejected by Tibetan people!!!!
CTA is no morethan self destructive Government!!! systematicaly destroy Tibet Issue!!!!
@166
You too are among the CTA hater without any credible grounds nothing more nothing less
New representative has responsibility to protect to H,H, and he has lack of experience in north America. They try to show in the public with H,H, but they have lack of experience, and knowledge history of Tibet.
Open Letter to The Tibetan Parliament-in-Exile from The International Shugden Community
In point 2 of your resolution you say:
“Worshipping the worldly gods, particularly spirits for protection, contravenes the principle of following the three refuge in Buddhism. The conference unequivocally proclaims that any individuals or organisation propitiating Dolgyal, would not be affiliated to any Tibetan religious school.”
You are lying! Following the Dalai Lama’s view and intention the Tibetan Parliament-in-Exile is continually telling people that Shugden harms the Dalai Lama’s life, harms the Tibetan people and harms Tibetan independence. Using these three reasons you are forcing people to abandon Shugden practice. People have no freedom as they are completely controlled by the Dalai Lama himself and Parliament. Everybody knows the Dalai Lama is already 80 years old and very healthy; it is complete nonsense to say that Shugden is harming his life! There is not one single Tibetan person in India and Nepal who has received harm from Shugden; only people who follow the Dalai Lama’s hallucination believe this. The Dalai Lama himself has rejected Tibetan independence; he has already said publicly that Tibet is a part of China. Everybody knows this! So, in reality, he has destroyed Tibetan independence. It is therefore complete nonsense to say that Shugden harms Tibetan independence. You, the Tibetan Parliament, do not understand this. This is your ignorance. Previously many higher Sakya Lamas and later many higher Gelugpa lamas including Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who is the root Guru of this present false Dalai Lama, have said that Shugden is an Enlightened Deity, the nature of the compassion and wisdom of the Buddhas. Because of your ignorance you do not understand this.
In conclusion, if you are not lying you must say publicly:
1) what is your valid reason for saying that Shugden harms the Dalai Lama’s life,
2) what is your valid reason for saying that Shugden harms the Tibetan people, and
3) what is your valid reason for saying that Shugden harms Tibetan independence.
We need your reply to be posted on your website by no later than 29th March 2014. If we do not receive your reply with your three valid reasons, which we mention above by this date, then it will be internationally recognized that the Tibetan Parliament-in-Exile and the Dalai Lama are lying.
The International Shugden Community wishes to tell you, the Tibetan Parliament-in-Exile, Samdong and Robert Thurman: Tibetan Parliament-in-exile, stop lying; Samdong, stop lying; Robert Thurman, stop lying; Tibetan Parliament-in-exile, stop cheating people; Samdong, stop cheating people; Robert Thurman, stop cheating people.
The International Shugden Community
20th March 2014
Oh dear, cheating and lying it seems…another deadline from the cult…what to do?
Speaking of cheating perhaps for starters NKT would address these incidents:
1) Samden Gyatso (the 2nd ex-national spiritual director of the NKT) had sexual relations with many women for a very long time One of the nuns tried to commit suicide after falling pregnant with his child; only then did Kelsang Gyatso do something about it.
2) Gen Kelsang Pagpa, caught on numerous occasions watching pornography on the centre computer, he is still “ordained” and still teaching!
3) Lodro, the ex-teacher of Heruka Centre in London, ran off with Togme, the ex teacher of Bodhisatva Centre in Brighton; please bear in mind that they took vows of celibacy.
4) The Current resident teacher in Bodhisatva centre ran off with her 3rd man.
5) NKT was sued for $1 million in New Zealand over a real estate deal
Many a refuge do they seek
on hills, in woods, to sacred trees,
to monasteries and shrines they go.
Folk by fear tormented.
Such refuge isn’t secure,
such refuge isn’t supreme.
From all dukkha one’s not free
unto that refuge gone.
But going for refuge to Buddha,
to Dhamma and the Sangha too,
one sees with perfect wisdom
the tetrad of the Noble Truths:
Dukkha, its causal arising,
the overcoming of dukkha,
and the Eight-fold Path that’s Noble
leading to dukkha’s allaying.
Such refuge is secure,
such refuge is supreme.
From all dukkha one is free
unto that refuge gone.
(verses from buddha dhammapada)
(Avolokiteshwara = The triple Gem)
Seeking worldy deities is your choice – nobody can stop you – But it is Worldy activity ie wishing for Wealth, for your friends and dear ones, keeping your enemies at bay (even harm to them)
BUT it is NOT Dharma activity.
WORLDLY not worldy !!!
Surrender Dorothy, the Wicked Witch of the West has given us an ultimatum: fess up by March 29th. Do we have until midnight Greenwich Mean Time?
To whom are we supposed to surrender: Kelsang Norsang the posh heckler of the Hamptons? Kelsang Gyatso, non- taxpayer of the UK or perhaps its to Losang Duke, the criminal monk of Shar Ganden?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9OJFiwU-8I
# 171
I seek refuge in the Three Jewels. I am not Tibetan. I take the freedom to choose my Spiritual Guide. I choose to rely on Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Dharmapala to protect precious Dharma. We do not replace Buddha Shakyamuni with the Protector. Get educated!
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights – Article 18.
“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”
Free Tibet – Free the Dharma
Separate the politics from Buddha Dharma – Teachings and practice. Start now!
The usual suspects: the NAGBA yellow minions.
Does anyone not believe the PRC is behind them?
As a saying goes too many cook spoils the broth – Tibet has been destroyed by too many Lamas and sect.
Over the course of Tibetan history for at least last 800 years or so each or lamas or sect to assert their supremacy have brought in foreign powers from Mongols. Chinese, Gorkha rendering Tibet virtually weak while making sure that there is no strong army in Tibet.
Now instead of talking lords Buddha’s Buddhism almost everyone is talking about my Lama’s or sect Buddhism.
The Yellow Munchkins are already planning to protest HHDL at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in Birmingham, Mass., next October, so heads up security detail.
to 167
its not about hate, its about care!!!
are you satisfied with CTA hurting the supporter of Tibet!!! by there irresponsible statement!!! speak against Taiwan independence!!! why???
do you want other supporter who is sympathy to drop there support???
if we don’t stop CTA, and send strong message they will continue with this as OK!!!
I really surprise that Tibetans seems so busy with shugden issue, and forget about Tibet issue!!!!
how come we don’t care when supporter express there hurt from our representative!!!! isn’t this a big issue!!!!
Karma is a fickle bitch. What goes around comes around thick and fast. The thing is when it goes around you don’t notice it because you toe is safe. When it comes around you bellow because it hurts. Your toe is being squashed.
So the lesson of this whole saga is be mindful of others feelings and Karma won’t act like a bitch.
Post 169 is demanding valid reasons. Head of the Institute of Buddhist Dialectic in Dharamsala and two of his students were murdered because he was providing valid reasons for Dalai Lama’s view for Shugden practice. Unlese you guys want to kill more people, you shouldn’t be asking valid reasons. You guys are not people of reasons.
Its very entertaining reading this blog with all your idiotic views. Some of you Tibetans are so gullible it’s quite bemusing. Along came the Dalai Lama in 1996 and tells you that all the problems of Tibet are because of the Spirit Dorje Shugden. Doh! You really fell for that one didn’t you! Its like North Korea blaming the Americans for all there problems. The Dorje Shugden issue is just some man made scapegoat to distract you Tibetans away from the Dalai Lama’s and CTA failure in the Tibetan issue. Just some idiotic outlandish fantasy! You’ve all been hoodwinked big style!! You all fell for it like a bunch of suckers!! Reading this blog i can understand the vast majority of you Tibetans have not moved on from the caveman era. Check your calenders, it’s now the 20th century!! The Dalai Lama and CTA have made fools out of all of you!!!
WHITEISCOLOUR
you have to say this because you guys have no valid reason.
if you have valid reason, you guys can’t stop using it.
ha ha ha ha ha
Lob kibum
As you know, there is no shortage of protector deities in Tibetan Buddhism. I will never choose any of these deities over Dalai Lama that includes Paldhen Lhamo. Worshiping protector dieties is not even required in Buddhist practice.
One of reasons you guys repeatedly mentioned to authenticate shugden worship is that many great Buddhist masters like Kabje Phapong ka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche worshiped Shugden and how can they be wrong. If I tell you there is a creator of the universe called God and you must worship. Some of the smartest people of our generation like Bill Clinton and Obama is worshiping the God and how can they be wrong. Is this a good reason?
Although we say that Vajrayana is short cut to nirvana but in reality its more like maze given so many deities standing in between Buddha and followers.
Why are so focus in sungma and choekyong but not on Buddha himself.
Its more like Hindu Brahmin controlling the masses through birth right.
if you would like to worship whomever you like, please do so but dont tell me to validate & follow your choice. you can worship ME also if you like..i will give you that permission.
some of you stil live in 20TH CENTURY..Its upto you, your choice.
But why the fk people care of things that one cant see,touch,feel and get tangible benefits.if there is anyone who would FILL MY BANK ACCOUNT WITH FEW MILLLION $$ with a snap of a fingers..please do tell me. i will worship this fella.I dont want to work anymore…i need free money.
@ 175 K.K
after all that tamasha and stupid alleagtions and hurtful things you guys did, what do do you guys expect? You have made your choice very clearly and now learn to live with that. nobody will/can can force you to stop the worship of your worldly protector- be it a guardian angel or a guardian demon.
Free Tibet- We’ll see you with your diety group at the next protest against China.
DOOTZ101
well said!!!
very true about Tibetan..a lot of Tibetans are day dreaming, believe Dorjee Shugden are behind the plight of Tibet!!!
I myself, sure, that one of the reason HHDL speak very strong against shugden, is to promote Umay Lam, and justify his failure..and don’t want to hear crtiticism of course..by shifting the attention from the Chinese atrocite every day in Tibet
just see how corrupt irresponsible HHDL representative in Taiwan(Dawa tsering), his statement before few days, accusing Taiwanese for seeking Taiwan independence!!(like it was a crime)…and doesn’t seems there where so many disagree with him..Tibetan just go on with this silly laughable shugden spirit
Dawa Tsering on behalf of Dharsa was sending a message to mainland China that exile government does not support Taiwan independence. His interview coincided with Taiwanese students who were hold up in the parliament protesting Bejing’s growing influence in Taiwanese politics and economy.
Beijing use to demand of Exile Government that CTA not only admit that Tibet is part of China but they must also claim Taiwan is part of China. I use to wonder, What has Taiwan to do with Tibet? And for their part, as far as I know, the Exile Government never bit the bait, now, in the vain hope of a dialogue, CTA is not only selling out Tibet, they are selling out Taiwan.
Just think about what we are doing, its so cold and calculating and this from an allegedly bone deep compassionate buddhist society. Tanks running over students is validated from such a mentality. Such an act might be politically advantageous, but my god, its a moral abomination.
The justification given to the Tibetan public, which destroyed the entire harmony of the Tibetan community, is: “Worshiping this evil deity is a danger for my life and for the freedom of Tibet. If you Tibetans want me to be dammed and don’t care at all about the cause of Tibet, then go ahead with the worship of this deity.”
On the contrary, to Western audiences His Holiness repeatedly say that he issued this ban “in order to save this pure and profound Tibetan Buddhism from degenerating into spirit worship”. And “this ban is applied in order to promote peace and harmony between the four Tibetan Buddhist traditions.”
Most of you Tibetans have been sucker punched by the Dalai Lama and the CTA. If HHDL told you all to set yourself on fire, most of you would probably do it! This is how much the HHDL cares about you Tibetans just watch this clip from CNN. He clearly doesn’t give a shit about any of you. He just cares about himself. The Lama is a selfish jerk.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/14/world/asia/uk-dalai-lama/
He doesn’t want peace in Tibet coz if there is peace there is no ‘FREE TIBET’ and no more money for him and his cronies in power from western governments. Have you ever asked yourself what the Dalai Lama and the CTA do with all the money they get? HHDL is always flying around in private biz jets wherever he goes. Humble monk my arse! HHDL and his ‘FREE TIBET CAMPAIGN’ is just some Circus roadshow to fleece the Western Governments of all there MONEY!! I say to you Tibetans stop following this false lama like a lost sheep. He’s doesn’t give a damn about any of you. All he wants to do is control you.
Lhasang
most Tibetans dont believe that shugden is behind the plight of Tibet. i dont know where you get that idea. Shugden is one aspect of problem in our society and the political problem of Tibet issue is totally different.
Dootz00
are you alright? are you not projecting shugden spirit’s wrath on us?
DOOTZ101: Speaking of public being fleeced for money: ever wonder how Trijang Chocktrul’s brother Jamyang got his Mercedes SUV, Ferrari, flying lessons, ski trips, trips to Europe and so on? Nice work if you can get it, and his brother is married also.
# 175 – K.K.
I respect your right and freedom in your choice of Buddhist refuge.
Likewise I think you may want to consider the right of a higher authority (HHDL etc) to INDICATE that that kind of ‘refuge’ could be a WRONG VIEW. (It’s not a question of ‘education’ but more of ‘wisdom’)
Please get it right – there is NO ban ‘out there’ on the worship of shugden.
The only kind of ban I know is of a request that a shugden refuge seeker NOT attend any of HHDL’s teachings.
You have any idea of the origins of shugden and its worldly agenda? It’s all about insecurity. You might want to get educated on that.
DOOTZ101
HHDL is not asking for Free Tibet. We are. Get your facts straight. There are many of us who are not concerned about the Shugden Moogden shennagigans. we in fact support their right to practice or worship as they wish and empathize with what Tibetan Shugen people are going through. But don’t you inflame the situation by gratifying your urge for self promotion and self advertisement. What is the crime in wanting Free Tibet? Are you suggesting that Shugden worship is antithetical to a Free Tibet? What proof do you have that HHDL gets money from Western governments. What do you think about all the Western politicians and journalists who are corrupted by Chinese money?
Shugden’s wrath? lmao. Most of you tibetans are a bunch superstitious dumb ass’s. Oooh i’m scared of the ‘Shugden’ spirit! It wouldn’t surprise me if you lot of cavemen neanderthals are scared of the dark also. I bet you played with barbie dolls when you were young? I bet you all run to your mummies when you get scared? Bunch of fring’in wimps! lol. You all need to man up and stop acting like a bunch of homo’s.
I am saying the real ‘FREE TIBET’ is coming from the Tibetans’ The fake ‘FREE TIBET’ is coming from HHDL. Hope i cleared my point up. Sorry if i offended anyone.
“He(Kundun)doesn’t want peace in Tibet coz if there is peace there is no ‘FREE TIBET.”
Interesting comment. Yes there is “peace”(if you mean absence of war) in China now, there is “peace” in North Korea so obviously peace dont automatically denote freedom, liberty, individual rights; to choose how one wants to live, what one chooses to believe in, or host of other salient qualities which make many Western liberal societies the envy of people living in peaceful tyran-run states like China and North Korea.
Most Asians immigrate to the West and not the other way around, there are many reasons for this, I suspect mainly for money haha.
Seriously, Why Free Tibet? Because Doofuz, Tibet belongs to Tibetans, China stole it. And while you think a thief should be allowed to sleep peacefully, I dont see it that way, lives and land are at stake. Get real, if there is real peace in Tibet already then why are Tibetans burning themselves?
“I say to you Tibetans stop following this false lama like a lost sheep. He’s doesn’t give a damn about any of you.”
And you do? I fail to see it from your melodramatic slant.
# 196
About shugdens wrath –
To be honest – It used to be quite common to hear about it- directly from the mouths of shugden followers be they children or adult. That their ‘god’ could was powerful enough to destroy – if evoked fanatically to do so.
DOOTZ101 –you tried to mock ALL Tibetans but in fact you make mock of the followers of this ‘god’ in that belief. In the end that is one of the many reasons for the ADVICE in not seeking such a Buddhist refuge – harnessing that kind of negative ENERGY.
It’s the same thing when the modern sophisticate says ‘May the force be with You”.
IT’s ALL about ENERGY.
WOOOH! WOOOH! Scarry stuff !!!!
WHITEISCOLOUR
I will give you a answer to your’s sentence one after one
Sentence #1
We did not say that there is shortage of dharma protector.
Sentence #2
That is your choice and we respect your choice.
We are not like dalai lama
Sentence #3
Even worshiping dalai lama is not required in Buddhism practice.
Sentence #4
Yes, because They are Buddha and they will not use anyone for anything
They will not deceive any one but dalai lama is using Tibetan for his gain.
He deceives Tibetans by saying that Tibet will be free within five years again again again again again. Be ready to go back and many others
Sentence #5
How can some one believe it without knowing you. If Buddha tells me that, I will believe it. But our argument is not about that. Our argument is STOP the BAN. STOP criticizing.
Why doesn’t the Dalai Lama tell Tibetans to cherish the Chinese in Tibet like a good Buddhist Master? Tell his followers to stop calling them dogs etc? Create some peace and harmony. Can’t you see it is the Dalai Lama who is the one stirring all the trouble up in Tibet. Why doesn’t he tell Tibetans to stop burning themselves? Coz he wants them to carry on burning themselves so he can carry on making shit loads of money from his ‘FREE TIBET CAMPAIGN’. If it doesn’t look like Tibetans are being oppressed then nobody around the world will want to give money to the HHDL ‘FREE TIBET CAMPAIGN’ anymore. If i was u i would start up the ‘REAL FREE TIBET CAMPAIGN’. I support wholeheartedly a ‘REAL FREE TIBET CAMPAIGN’ one that doesn’t include HHDL.
lob kibum
Of course it will be waste of my time to explain anything to you. By now you must have heard if you have ears. You must have seen now if you eyes.
Dalai Lama did not or does not ban Shugden practice by any means. He does not have any authority to ban anything. He just points out to people what is wrong based on his knowledge. By nature if anybody wants to associate with Dalai Lama religiously, he or she has a obligation to listen to the Dalai Lama.
Buddhism does not required to follow Dalai Lama but Buddhism do require to have qualified teacher or lama and Dalai Lama is undoubtedly one of the most qualified teacher humanity ever experienced. If you can not distinguish between rock and gold, that is your problem but as a good leader or teacher Dalai Lama has the responsibility to take action rather than brushed it off to the side.
Hey dootz you better crawl back into your prayer room and masturbate to your deity or whatever it is you cultist do because you know dick about Tibetan politics, where its at now.
The Dalai Lama cherishes the Chinese people so much we are at the point where His Holiness sees Mao as a father figure, Tibetan traitors as heroes, repeatedly enunciating to Chinese students how much he admires some Marxist views, etc. He cherishes the Chinese more than he does Karma Chophel and Jamyang Norbu types- which is a good thing right?
Another mistake, His holiness has never called any Chinese “dogs”. If you have evidence, produce them, if not, you are full of shit.
His Holiness is not the only reason why Tibetans are self immolating. Tibetans are burning themselves because they want freedom from the tyranny that is China.
Hhaha you will “support wholeheartedly a ‘REAL FREE TIBET CAMPAIGN’ one that doesn’t include HHDL.”
Admit it, you are not a Tibetan. We know we have problems in our society and we are talking amongst ourselves how to go about correcting few of them. There are some truths to what you say but you say it in such a fabricated and exaggerated way as to belittle all Tibetans.
I dont support His Holiness in many ways but if i have to choose, I would choose him over you any day.
DOOTZOO
you better watch out the spirit is hiding under your umbrella. for mocking him you earned his wrath now.
seems there are new website’s popping up everywhere u look. The truth is out there! HHDL days are numbered.
http://tptusa.org/
some of you tibetans on here are seriously a sad bunch of neanderthal cavemen.
Tenpa
Your mummy is calling you. Go and play with your barbie doll.
Apologies if i offended any Tibetans on here. I don’t mean to belittle anyone that’s not my intention. My point is not offend anyone but just point out simple truths. I wanted to try an experiment and talk to some of the neanderthals on this blog in there own language that they understand. I wanted to see there reaction. Most of the bloggers commenting on here speak well and have good points to make and I bow to them. It’s been an interesting experiment that’s for sure. Now i will revert back to my normal self.
Are Gelugpas, Tibetan and in the international community, who do not follow the advice of HHDL to abandon their protector practice safe?
“The Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader of all Tibetans.”
Is this true? How did he gain this position?
He is introduced in this way at his public speaking events in the the US.
If true, his means Tibetans have no religious freedom to choose their personal spiritual guide.
Are there examples of other respected Buddhist Teachers, in the present and pre-dating the request of the Dalai Lama for one particular group of human beings not to attend his teachings, who made a similar request or would make similar requests?
DOOTZ, Thanks for the apology, you are clearly a better person than the yellow minion cult trolls who insult not only HHDL, our admittedly less than perfect administration and the Tibetan people on a daily basis.
You know, in the Westminster parliamentary system of democracy (that UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and even republics like the US and India are modeled after), it is not allowed for one member to call another a liar without apology. Otherwise the member is ejected and disciplined. So a protest on the basis of unfounded accusations of lying is actually not democratic, as well as being plain nasty and rude. No apology has ever been forthcoming from the cult after 20 years of insults and anti-Tibetan misinformation.
NAMKHAH, you need to re-read DOOTZ post, he carried out an experiment to demonstrate the ugliness that Tibetans can be by comparing them to Neanderthals (cavemen), an unfair charactization of Neanderthals because they were actually better than Tibetans are in this issue. I’m sure they never fought over such silly stuff as spirit worshipping.
I find it deeply humiliating that we are engaged in such nonsense instead of being 100% focused on China’s illegal occupation of Tibet and its continued cruel oppression. I am angry that HHDL just expressed grief at a traitor like Baba phunstok who brought the red commies into Tibet, instead of talking about the self-immolators, which he has never raised in his public talks, out of fear to offend the Chinese, as he himself admitted. I think HHDL is worst than any paid Tibetan spy working for China!
@ DOOTZ101
The problem in Tibet is not due to the Dalai Lama or Tibetan people but Chinese occupation forces who have created terror in Tibet. Dalai Lama in fact in public repeated refused to condemn even the Chinese government atrocities.
Your allegation is like blaming the Jews for the crimes of Nazi.
Why are Chinese moaning and groaning about Japanese rule in China while they think their occupation as liberation.
Stop demonizing the Dalai Lama and instead focus and reflect on genocidal regime of China and let the shugden followers spiritual leaders to follow Buddha Vinaya.
@DOOTZ101
There is popular saying in Tibetan
Chinese Lie
Tibetans Die
World Silent
Shugden followers are also becoming liars like their supporter Chinese communist regime.
WHAT DREAMS MAY COME
Yaeh I agree, CTA has become very similiar to CCP..tibet have no relation with taiwan, but because CTA has become a dog who obey there CCP master…So they want to associate tibet with taiwan under one family of 45 ethnics
as i said before, its time to send hhdl and cta strong message, that there like a traitor act are no longer tolerated
DOOTZ101
I agree partialy on your furstration on tibetan society..but not the chinese part of course
what more slaverly you want from tibetans??? this is not enough???
HHDL praise bapa phunwang, the one who lead chinese to tibet!!!
HHDL said Mao is his father!!! the one who killed millions tibetans!!! even disregard the tibetans people feelings!!
in any other country in the world, the one who praise there enemy, is consider traitor, only in Tibet, like these behaviour praised
the who reapetedly said tibetans is dogs, is chinese..why don’t you request them to stop???
TENZIN BHUTIA
I agree with you so much
HHDL is doing the job worse than the tibetan paid by ccp, because these no one admire them, while HHDL, doing same job, with too much followers and admiration!!! he successfully stopped tibetans to ressist chinese
even HHDL love to speak about how good Mao was, how good chinese culture is..but never speak about tibetans who sacrifice there life for tibet!!!! very shameful
EveryONE talks of spirits.
For Christians the ‘Holy Spirit’ (also referred to as the Holy Ghost!) is one member of their Trinity.
And after the death of Jesus – His holy spirit moves in the present world to help His believers.
Dootz is sensitive to that term/usage around it or has some great issue about it. Naturally his greatest insult is to call us cavemen.
I would refer to it as a deity or protector but I do not believe it to be a Buddha. And there are many innocent Tibetans who appropriate the deity as passed down by their ancestors invoking positive energy for their near and dear ones.
You are entitled to your own opinion but personally, I admired Baba Phuntsog Wangyal who fought against the Nationalist invader and drug dealer Liu Wenhui 刘文辉 in Kham. It was Phunwang who pointed out the Communist party senior cadres are definitely involved in the dolgyal issue for their own enrichment and career advancement. This should be a wake up call for those who think they can work with Tibetan traitors.
Contrast Phunwng’s actions with the sectarian evangelist Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, who had a patron-priest relationship with Liu Wenhui, the opium dealing Chinese warlord in the 1930’s. Pabongka supported the secular ambitions of the warlord in exchange for support for the establishment of the supremacy of the Gelug in Kham. He preached many times for Liu Wenhui and his supporters and some of these sermons and letters are preserved in writing. In his 2011 book ‘Tibet: A History’, Sam van Schaik writes “in his sermons to the warlord– also to the warlord’s wife, who had been particularly impressed by the charismatic monk– Pabongka explained the supremacy of the Gelug philosophical approach and the shortcomings of the other schools.” Furthermore, Van Schaik’s analysis reveals that Pabongka tried to lure Liu Wenhui, already an extremely wealthy major drug dealer, into promoting Gelug sect hegemony. Pabongka writes to Liu Wenhui: “there are many in Tibet who are deeply attached to false schools…In your territory, if you were to establish anew the essence of Buddha’s teaching, the teachings of Tsongkhapa, then your good luck would be such that hundreds of millions of gods like Brahma and Indra could not compete with it” Drug dealer and war criminal? No problem, we want your money!
I don’t think HHDL or any body has the right to say that One China is preferable on question of Taiwan.
Our leaders may not have the right but in our present circumstance they have the power to sell out Tibet. But going after Taiwan and giving up their independence is being a Don Quixote ten times over.
Our govt has chosen Umelam – which entails trying to LIVE with those that invaded, killed and destroyed our homeland. So politically appeasing the invaders is the diplomacy it seems.
What do u think the MANY diplomatic missions of our envoys entailed? They claim to have been scolded & scolded. For what? And what orders were they given? – to continue revealing to the world of the truth and actively pursue it? What u think?
Baba phuntsok is a hero now. Personally, I dont see him as a hero nor a traitor. As for the call for talks with HHDL, its his last ditch attempt to redeem himself in eyes of religous tibetans for himself and his family. And all this twists and turns of who is hero and who is traitor in our history is not to be taken very seriously until such time that we have full picture and full re appraisal of all past events. And that will happen.
btw, guys Mountain Phoenix has a new book review. very intersting- am not a fan of Shamar Rimpoche but some revealing facts out there.
Worship Shugen or Nechung etc is one of many superstitious belief among Tibetan Buddhist.
As an outsider looking inwards. I see the following problems within Tibetan Society. The vast majority of Tibetans follow the HHDL like a GOD KING. They never question anything he says or does. This creates a problem because many Tibetans just follow him like blind sheep and cannot think for themselves. HHDL clearly lies all the time. He has been caught lying on camera many times. As an outsider i don’t feel HHDL cares about Tibetans he just wants whats good for himself. He is hungry for power. He lies to Shugden followers and also lies to his own people. He has clearly deceived us all. He is of not good character. He says he retired and stepped down from politics but he is still acting like the Political leader of Tibetans, meeting heads of governments etc. He preached democracy and human rights all over the world where ever he went for decades yet made no effort to implement democracy in the Tibetan Government in Exile. Why didn’t he step down? Act like a humble monk and let a lay person take charge whilst he concentrated on his religious duties? Religion and politics just don’t mix? For me HHDL is the biggest hypocrite because he never practice what he preaches. It seems after so many years only now are Tibetans really questioning HHDL real motives. I personally think HHDL will fall and i don’t think it will come from the media it will come from an uprising of Tibetans who become impatient with his lies and deception. HHDL just wants Tibetans to keep burning themselves to death and keep rioting now and again because this way its great for his own free tibet campaign that brings in lots of money. Free Tibet merchandise is big business all over the world. I mean big big business. If there doesn’t look like there there is suppression going on then Dalai Lama’s free tibet campaign money train will start to slow down and the coffers will dry up. My question where does all this money go? Is it accounted for? Is it going to help Tibetans who need it most?
Moving on to the real Free Tibet issue. I am a Buddhist so i will always look for the peaceful solution every time. History has taught us nothing good comes from war. How can Tibetans defeat the Chinese to have a FREE TIBET? For me taking on a ruthless giant like the Chinese, you will always come out with a bloody nose. You can start a gorilla war an armed resistant but that will just go on for years and years and there will be no outcome. China is to powerful and savage. So what to do? Partly i see the problem that Tibetans don’t accept the Chinese and the Chinese don’t accept the Tibetans. Both sides simply don’t like each other. There is a lot of resentment. So what to do? That is the big question? If you don’t want a war, how are u ever going to get a FREE TIBET? If you want to help your fellow country men and women to stop being surpressed by the Chinese i think the first thing is to topple HHDL cause as long as he is in charge there will no good outcome for anyone. Maybe take a leave out of Gandhi’s book. Gandhi was the master of peaceful resistance.
an interesting article from the huffington post on HHDL. Well worth a read.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/james-snell/dalai-lama-criticism_b_4421553.html?just_reloaded=1
@223, you liar! its not even worth reading the first para…such an idiotic piece would surface sometimes btw.
@224
Who you calling a liar? Be careful with your words mate. Just because someone’s point of view doesn’t accord with your own doesn’t mean there wrong. It’s just another point of view. Hey and i’m not a liar because i don’t share your point of view. Calling me a liar is totally illogical. Learn to respect the views of others!!
‘224
Actually if u check carefully on line there are many articles like the one above. There certainly not a one off
http://skeptoid.com/blog/2012/05/14/dalai-lama-savior-or-selfish-jerk/
Christopher Hitchens and Tariq Ali got much publicity for themselves slagging off Mother Teresa in print and on the lecture circuit. These are sort of celebrity parasites like barnacles on a whale, and I include the western gyalpo cultists in this category. Hitchens, by the way, smoked himself to death and not with dootz but tobacco.
@227
As usual Namkhah your talking out of your arse! You can’t accept anybody who has another view that you don’t share. This is called being ‘sectarian’. You are one of these prehistoric neanderthals i was talking about about who is trapped in some sort of stone age society!
Your posts are informed by speculation and dubious online anecdotes. Lets see some citations and logic before you rush to personal attacks, you are how old? Grow up.
@229
Namkhah your a nasty piece of work. You have little respect for anyway especially Shugden followers. Dalai Lama start all this garbage so he must accept the consequences of starting the garbage in the first place. If people are slagging him off then he only has himself to blame. I was trying to steer clear from the Shugden issue and give my honest opinion of the HHDL. You are the one who is always name calling. When someone give you a taste of your medicine you don’t like it and you can’t take it. If your gonna give it out then you also need to learn to take a hit or two. Im my opinion from reading many of your posts your a despicable and disgusting human being. But then again you do the follow the HHDL and he also has no respect for others. Seems you share the same ideology.
@225,just because you got different point of view does not necessarily mean you cannot be punished for defamatory allegation. you become LIAR when your assertion is out of whack within the community…
to DOOTZ101
You sound like a hippy / or westerner who has lost contact in his own communtiy, country, friends circle, family and so on and so forth and got in to Buddhism not for Spirtual Enlightment but out of fashion!! Alas!! you found shugden! But i can unterstand why, watching you tube where these Lama holding candles in their hand and dancing like nuts in fake trance.. But numbnutts like u love these things!!! so carry on and keep on dancing!!! you think you are smart and know everything about buddhism but for us you people are nothing but some jerks who wants to be different by becoming laughing stock!!! YOu call us neanderthals, cavemen etc but u r following one of them!! BTW let us cavemens argue among eachother and settle our disputes.. No need of drug addicts, pedophiles GOBSER to interfere!!!
good riddance!!!!!
@231
Another one with a sectarian viewpoint. You just can’t hear any negative words about your dear leader. It’s just to painful for u. Just because this monk carry the title of HH Dalai Lama doesn’t mean he is not immune to critisizm. I know in the Tibetan Community it’s very taboo to say negative thing about the Dalai Lama without being called an outcast but this isn’t the case in the free Western Society. We say what we want about who we want. Everybody is accountable for there actions. Doesn’t matter what your position or title is. As far as i know this blog is open to free speech just a pity about some of the sectarian neanderthals like yourself who spoil it.
@232, I am tired of child like attitude abusing the democratic freedom without being properly informed and educated on what entails the rights…RESPONSIBILITiES.
Criticism should be valid with well founded factual reason NOT on whimsical imaginary i thought so coming out of doutcbag.
to Tenzin Bhutia
Dont play the blame game!! I support 100% Freedom and not umaylam!
So dont divert the Shugden issue and stop spreading fallacy and hatred about HH!!
As ur name suggests!! U r sort of people who change sides when their is something to gain. Are u tibetan at all.? Are u those Nepalis who went to monastries for money and career!!
I’m sure u people are first ones who went to Taiwan for Taiwan Pho!! You went there dennounced HH, Tibet, and its Flag.. But now u r playing the Freedom Card and saying Free Tibet!!!
It amazes me how people change!! Your name should be Tenzin Bhutia Cameleon….
Free Tibet and Long live HH Dalai Lama!!
Urgen 232
I don’t think there is point in speculating that he might be a hippy or dharma person and heap insults on these people because there are lot of good dharma practioners in the west who practice much more dilligently than Tibetan Buddhists. Besides they will definitely not say “Gorrila war.” It sounds very asian.
As for Dootz101: It’s a common knowledge that HHDL does not use even the money from his nobel peace prize for himself. He gives everything up including personal gifts. Ask the office of HHDL what happens. When you make outlandish remarks like that it doesnt’ become an argument. Then it becomes pure rant.
TO THE ADMINISTRATOR.
PL!! BAN THOSE WHO SPREAD LIEs AND CREATES SECTERIAN DIVISION. AMONG TIBETANS.
IF THE SHUG*** FOLLOWERS HAVE GENIUNE ARGUEMENT THEN WE SHOULD WELCOME THEM OTHERWISE BLOCK THEM. EACHTIME THEY OPEN THIER MOUTH THEY DEFAME H.H.
HAVING DIFFERENT OPINION IS ONE THING, DEFAMING A LAMA IS ANOTHER.
TO ALL THOSE SHUG*** FOLLOWERS.
GIVE ME 10 GOOD REASON WHY THIS SPIRIT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ALL THE OTHERS..
AND TELL ME 10 GOOD THINGS. OKOK I KNOW IT WANT HAVE THAT MANY GOODNESS. GIVE ME 5 GOOD THINGS..
I DONT SEE VIDEOS ON YOU TUBE FROM CTA OR DALAI LAMA CRITICISING THE LAMAS OF SHUG*** BUT THEY (SHUG** HEADS) DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO DEFAME HH.
THEY CALL US NEANDERTHALERS, YET THEY CAN COMMENT AND ARGUE ON BLOGS LIKE THIS BUT THEY DONT LET ANY CRITICISM ON THEIR ONES.
THEY KILL, INTIMIDATE, WHO ARE SHARP OPPONENTS OF SHUG***!! I DONT HAVE TO GIVE ANY PROOF. THE TRUTH AND LIE ARE BOTH A FINGERTIP AWAY!! ITS UPTO YOU WHAT YOU WANT. THE TRUTH OR THE LIE…
to 235: your chosen username says alot about you
Stop playing the old tibetan game of slandering someone because you don’t agree with them, I’m 100% pure bred Trehor Khampa!
I agree with you that the shugden issue is a ploy to divert our attention away from what is happening in Tibet, but blame the right person, HHDL! He started this, he kept it going and he is doing it for a reason, a devious one I suspect.
To DOOTZ101: you said he had your fun and would return to normal, I didn’t see any change. I suspect you are either:
1. a Tibetan punk getting your cheap thrills
2. an inji getting your cheap thrills
either case, you have no business patronizing us and lecturing us, why don’t you go and fix your own issues and (don’t pretend you don’t have any) leave tibetan issues to tibetans!
to 236
you sound like reasonable person! and i agree there are lot of good dharma practioners in the west.
but my msg goes to Dootz101, what u write is what you get to read. if you give me a reasonable arguement then i’ll argue in the same fashion but if you spread nonsense, then nonsense is what you get.
BTW i dont quite get u. Who said ” Gorilla War” pl! clarify!
Kadampa western shugden people hardly ever use the term HHDL.
DOOTZ does that a lot.
Why would he need to get some ‘cheap thrill’ unless he’s heavily invested in some vendetta regarding shugden issue.
#238 Bhutia said the following:
“I agree with you that the shugden issue is a ploy to divert our attention away from what is happening in Tibet, but blame the right person, HHDL! He started this, he kept it going and he is doing it for a reason, a devious one I suspect.”
I think you are getting paranoid. In such a state you will think everyone else who does not match to your strict & narrow OR world view is up to something and you and your group is the only one that is sane and morally upright.
So What would that devious reason be? I ask because you say you’re Tibetan – wouldn’t bother with some like a Dootz.
Tsunddru, how do you define open world? I hope you understand what that means. It means you accept, (not necessarily agree) there will be a variance of opinions but can debate. That includes his HHDL. I certainly don’t agree with him.
Devious, absolutely, that is the only way to describe it. When over 120 tibetans have taken their own lives in the most horrific way, our leader, HHDL makes a make believe spirit the main issue of the day. Tibet online TV made it their main topic for several days showing old clips. Why? I think HHDL has given up on Tibet and wants instead to capitulate to save our culture. That’s fine with me, he has his right, but we need not have to agree with him.
Just want to make it clear to all of those bone headed Tibetans that think that anyone that doesn’t agree with HHDL must be a shugden follower.
I’m an atheist and the idea of worshipping any spirit is embarassing to my being. These western shugden folks, they are a cult and a sad bunch, but when HHDL engages in this issue with these maniacs, he diminishes our standing and our cause.
I believe Tenzin Bhutia is a sincere, concerned Tibetan unlike that troglodyte who brand us neanderthals. If I may say, Tenzin seen bit jaded, understandable for a young tibetan who is finally starting to open long closed eyes. The sleeper has awoken and wow, what a mess. I know, I know, welcome to the world of the real.
Tenzin is also a Tibetan atheist which I find endearing. Believe me, as a Tibetan atheist, there are a lot of things to be angry about in a religious mad society, but i believe a good atheist should never lose objectivity and i hope, that in time you cultivate it more, try to see things as they are, not as we would like them to be, relying less on intuitions, gut instincts or too much emotionalism but always attempt to fit hypothesis to facts and not the other way around, that is to say, every once in a while, do sanity checks to see if you havn’t wondered into prosperous conclusions.
His holiness is not diverting the Tibetan Issue in place of the Shugden issue. This is a completely different mess made political because of mixing religion of superstition and politics which now blows up in the face.
Really, the one has nothing to do with the other but since Dharsa believes that Tibetan buddhism with its tulkus, its ostentatious rites and rituals, its psudo intellectual philosophy, is one such ingredient for the staple bread which nourish the Tibetan society now and future. Something they feel is worth protecting and fighting over. As atheists, we can disagree but we cant deny the reality of it.
About his holiness being dismissive when asked about the self imolators is that he must surely realize the moral dilemma he has gotten himself into–One who preaches peace and compassion for profession is forced by China and the rest of the greedy, hypercritical world, to maybe not condone outright, but to stand mute while Kunduns own people, his own blood and soul burn themselves up hideously. Here I am not claiming that His Holiness is pure as a new born babe, he can and does manipulate or let his cronies manipulate Tibetan politics,(especially Tibetan Democracy) that there is little doubt in my mind.
I have already said the self immolators should stop, many others have too, such as the Karmapa, so I am not making excuses for His Holiness by any means, but ultimately its about the Tibetans in Tibet, what they want, they who suffer. And in a weird way, which often reveals itself, that human being’s words and deeds show themselves to be contradictory; His Holiness may actually be looking out for the welbeing of Tibetans in Tibet in the long run by these sacrifices.
I think Tibetans need to stop with Dalai Lama is the enemy or Jamyang Norbu is the enemy, we all know who the real enemy is…..he does takeouts.
Urgen 239
I am saying that I think Dootz101 is not inji because in his post 222 he says “gorilla war.” Inji would not make a mistake like that.
“With regard to Jamyang Norbu’s question about security for the Dalai Lama, i believe that the Chinese secret service are so skilled that if they should wish to kill a public figure, it would be done seamlessly and it would seem like an accident or natural death. With the plethora of public appearances by the Dalai Lama, he is literally a sitting duck. The Chinese would not assassinate him purely because to do so would make him a martyr. So i do believe he is pretty safe. Unlike HH Trijang Rinpoche of course, who has a death sentence on his head because of the Dalai Lama and the CTA’s tacit endorsement of violence against Dorje Shxxxn practitioners.”
-this comment was posted on the cult website April 10th
246
I do agree with that comment partialy, if chinese want to kill dalai lama, they would have done it very long time ago, its due to two reason, one if dalai lama killed by china, it will lead to global hatred, and mass revolution by tibetans against china, second reason, is HHDL doing a very good job in calming tibetans, asking them to only accept negotiation with china..thats what china exactly want
@ What Dreams May Come
Thank you for your kind words and for my youth, although I’m 50yrs old.
Also, I think you should put to better practice what you preach. You think HHDL has nothing to do with all of this mess? I think you need to wake up from your dreams and look at the reality. HHDL created alot of divisions in our communities over the years, I need not to raise them one by one, because no one wants to really hear them. He cannot be a leader and not assume responsibility. Tibetans always try to blame others as if HHDL can do no wrong. I’m sorry, but a true atheist looks at think objectively and I don’t think you are doing that. I suspect you still consider HHDL as a god-king and incapable of doing wrong. I don’t question his love for his people but his priorities are wrong and so we must question his motives. More importantly, we must realize that our struggle is not defined by one man. It is the collective will of all of us, and I’m sure Rangzen occupies our heart and soul. Sorry, I’m not a buddhist and it seems HHDL goes around the world promoting peace and religious harmony and while that is noble, it sets the wrong image about us and our struggle.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=chUX_eRRNOs
Sir, it seems that the Tibetans who are against Shugden practitioners are very violent, vulgar and rude. Please see these videos on this very important article, on their violence and language.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/why-so-vulgar/
Jamyangla, I hope that you as an outstanding and objective spokesperson of the Tibetan people can highlight this point that they’re not reflecting the Dalai Lama well.
Yet another cult protester ambushes HHDL, this time a German fanatic in heckling him behind a building in Frankfurt. The question of security remains. As well, one may well ask what of our freedom to peacefully walk in the world without harassment, slanderous attacks and disruptive behavior?
Correction: This latest ambush was in Rotterdam, behind Erasmus University, not in Frankfurt.
After reading this piece and the one about Phuntso Wangyal, I told myself that Jamyang Norbu la is a kind of bitter-medicine. (ནད་མཁྲིས་པའི་སྨན་ལ་ཞིམ་པོ་མེད་ཟེར་བ་ལྟར།= No sweet medicines for jaundice). Thank You, Jamnor la, for being with your people when needed!
The biggest obstacle to the life of His Holiness the Dalai Lama comes from within the Tibetan hierarchy, itself. No one is a bigger obstacle to the life stream and activity of the authentic masters than the so-called tulkus who have abandoned their vows and Buddhadharma. They still use their “names” to profit and make quite a good living off of Tibetan Buddhism. I think we should limit the access these
“tulkus” have to the Dalai Lama. We should limit the “recognitions” of such re-births until an age when they truly demonstrate their devotion to the path. The tulkus are more of a problem than the westerners. We should interrogate them more than the westerb ordained sangha. With a few exceptions, like Ling Rinpoche, I really do not like the so-called “tulkus”. Question their intentions before interrogating the western sangha. And go after the translators and “general secretaries” as well! Who are those people? What are their intentions?? Books? Publicity? VIP status? These young “tulkus” and their entourages of VIPS upset me. Who are these people? tsem tulku. kalu tulku. gomo tulku. and so on. Who are these people? Blame them first. Interrogate them first, before the western people. These “tulkus” have had every opportunity to receive the authentic teachings and transmissions. They had every opportunity to improve themselves and help others. I don’t like these tulkus. I blame their broken samaya for these problems we face now in the west and other places. Their broken samaya carries a very, very heavy cost for all of us. Interrogate those people first.
The Dalai Lama has now toned down his rhetoric against Dorje Shugden in Western public gatherings, but not in Tibetan circles, due to many who have warned Dalai Lama that it is a public relations disaster. To the Western crowd he will say that he does not ban the Shugden practice and everyone has the right to practice, and it is his duty to warn people that this is a spirit practice. Why is it his duty? To label Shugden practitioners as ‘spirit worshipers’ is not his duty nor is it respecting the rights of freedom of worship. What is the point if giving freedom to worship in one breath, but in another breath saying that it is a harmful spirit practice? You want to look like you are open and democratic, but in truth you are denigrating a form of worship that you have no right to criticize. The Dalai Lama should not disrespect the Westerners, Easterners, Tibetans and anyone who wishes to practice Dorje Shugden or any faith. Do not mention Dorje Shugden practice is spirit worship. What follower of any religion would appreciate someone demonizing their form of worship? Do not call Shugden followers ‘spirit worshipers’. This is a judgment of their personal beliefs which he has no right to make especially publicly. Even the normally pro Dalai Lama people are waking up to this unjust persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/tibetan-leadership-makes-a-huge-mistake/
Today I read on BBC News how China has successfully rewritten the History of the Tiananmen square massacre where they have cast the peaceful protesters who stood for democracy as counter-revolutionaries. Meanwhile in Dharsa, HH and CTA doing similar rewriting of History, now the shugden controversy isn’t about Hurting HHs health and the cause of Tibet no, its now about cleaning up Buddhism of sectarianism. And to that end even the TNC has jumped on the bandwagon and over at Tibet.net they are naming names but not inji names no, only Tibetan names. Monks fighting monks but both side take dhogyal as real being when someone said it is all made up which it is. Both side batshitcrazy.
https://sites.google.com/site/tibetanpoliticalreview/articles/tibetannationalcongresscondemnsthebaselessallegationsandattacksbyshugdengroupsagainsthisholinessthe14thdalailama
@257: Shudgen is a sectarian cult. There is no doubt about that. But we live in 2014 but 1600.
Also when we can accept Non-Buddhist and Atheist why there is so much schism amongst the sects. Buddhism has been lauded as glue for the unity and strength of Tibet. But let’s not forget that Buddhism is and has been weakness of Tibet. It made Tibet weak and depended largely neighbour’s good or ill intentions for the last 900 years or so.
Too much influence of Buddhism has brought down the empire from Maurya, Mongols to Tibet.
NIELS: You have little credibility if you quote the cult website run by foreigners in Malaysia. You failed to mention ISC (the latest acronym) published their own list of CTA officials last week in retaliation..what is the favored word? Oh yes, hypocrite!
His Holiness is obviously right when he said that Dorje Shugden Cult is about spirit worship. How can it be otherwise when you worship dead or imaginary things? Infact, Tibetan Buddhism would be much impoverished if it did away with spirit worship and magical thinking altogether. But I hope His Holiness do not ban all spirit worship in Tibetan Buddhism because then those soulless Atheists might think they have found the perfect religion. haha
Regarding the article by the Tibetan National Congress President, Jigme Ugen, that’s a show of solidarity with His Holiness, the Exile Government and the Tibetan People who love His Holiness and are concerned for his safety.
WE OTHODOX R DE ONE WHO MAKES HH LET DOWN ON WOLD STAGE.. itz a shame.”
ohhh god itz a shame.. HIS HOLLINESS MADE SO CLEARIFICATION & THERE IS FULL MOVIE DOCUMENTRY THAT THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION FOR SHUGDEN FOLLOWER.. He anounced every where he goes by no choice coz of this issues showed up everywhere now a day..
Guns don’t kill Pepole, People kill People, thatz happening here
“Itz a shame that by using HIS HOLLINESS name people treat bad & look down in society who follow Shugdhen. persecuting, and discriminating against shugden devotees, ostracising them from the exile community, denying them entrance into monasteries, shops, medical care, etc.”
itz true.. coz i see all the & everywhere bills sticking everywhere “saying no entreance shungdhen follower” while HHDL is confidently anouncing fredom of religioin to Tibetans. We othodox are the one who make HH let down on wold stage.. itz a shame.
Which lead to present condition.. if we treat them like enemy than where they go. we all in exile, a lost People of Great snowland.. i think that lead to them a servival in dis cold world, on that time other evil people take advantage to break us down. We need to Unit for our Goal.How sad itz is.
This all happened coz of narrow minded,othodox tibetans still cob up under darkness, even we are in electrilize Free Country..
“Other before Self, if can’t atleast Live and let Live” & “be a morden buddhist.” HHDL teaching since our school time.
Itz not coz of HHDL .. itz us, our othodox people who divided among us by treating bad among us coz he follow some evil sprits.
we r beliver of karma, what everthey follow it will lead to their karma.. It will not effect on ur karma,for being friend or naughbour of them..
If we treated them like this then where they go.. we are all here for one cause .. “FREE TIBET or TO SAVE TIBET”
Our religion base on love,care,inner peace and compassion.. They just need our love & compassion more than we share among non shugdhen follower.
If we belive in non voilence & love compassion can lead to our Victory over our Enemy and win our country back than why not our own brothers and sisters who just lost in spritual world..
Help them wid love and compassion instead of blaming them and kicking them from our society.
We don’t need lots of teachers and spritzz to reach enlightment as buddha will be the prove.. we are lucky that whe got Great teacher to reach faster enlighment by gaining wisdom avalable everywhere now day…
Use ur love,inner peace and compassion to overcome all these problem. itz about finding solution.. repeding our mistake is woser than shoe maker.. since 1996.
We, Specially tibetans r lucky to grown up in our culture which is base on love love love love love. than why???
“if you make ur life ezy,itz ezy.
if we make our life complex, itz complex”
itz all depend upon us.. Again Karma
So be a better Tibetan & dharma worrior by using our reach culture and true wisdom that is available around us in Tibetan/other languages(we are lucky coz most of them are in our script, english n hindi have can’t traslate whole % from old script)
At the end.. Karma that we belive and itz all about you, itz all in ur hand. not others. you will know it when it come to ur death.!!
wid love & compassion
Karma
(Dreamer of snowland, hoping to return soon )
p.s: if m wrong m sorry and also lotz of grama n spelling mistake.. sorry coz m never used to write but, can’t stop while fighting upon clueless topics. It seems to me like putting oil
and sparking fire. so can’t stop)
Bodh gyalo
the deity protesters in their infinite stupidity of garnering sympathy for their cause have resorted to calling Kundun a “liar”,it may well be true that some elements of the protesters have Chinese ties,I don’t think I would be straying too far if I said that there are Gelug,Sakya,Nyingma,Kagyu and Bon traitors too.
history also tells us that opposition towards His Holiness in spiritual matters is nothing new,for 20 years the 16 th Karmapa along with the support of 13 large Tibetan Resettlement camps in India and countless Nyingma and Kagyu lama’s actively and openly opposed His Holiness on the question of Spiritual unity.
there were trouble then as there is at present….
what everyone fails to understand is that the protesters did not start this sorry episode as was the case of the 16th Karmapa,the heavy handedness of His Holiness and his advisers are to be blamed.
and presently due to the ill conceived strategy of shaming Kundun …the protesters have in fact become the scapegoat of all that ills our exile Government.
Jamyang la’s piece on the security welfare of Kundun is excellent and like the overwhelming majority of our people we should all be concerned,but a frail inji nun calmly calling Kundun ( who actually went towards the nun) a liar cannot be construed as a real threat,countless world leaders face this on a daily basis,we have seen shoes thrown towards W Bush, Wen Jiabao,Manmohan Singh and many others with all their top flight security.
what is lost in all this is who is really at fault ? is there discrimination and denial of religious freedom..off course there is ! why is it that there are no openly followers of the deity in our exile Government ? would a teacher,secretary,janitor be allowed to work for the exile Government if they were a open deity follower….the sad answer is NO !
and for this idiotic disgraceful element in the Shugden society to be branded as doing China’s bidding is laughable,the last I heard Kundun,Lobsang Sangay,Penpa Tsering and Samdhong Rinpoche among others have renounced Tibet’s Independence…not this deity group.
the argument made by some regarding Amnesty International’s report is laughable……it only states that ” grave violations of fundamental human rights including torture, the death
penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary detention or imprisonment, or unfair trials”
thankfully CTA does not have those powers to implement.
Here is a petition J. Khedrup, Canada to consider signing (see link below)
“We request that you immediately cease the provocative protests and yelling at the public teachings of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
The current campaign is provocative and disruptive, aimed at preventing the transmission of Buddhism and upsetting the Tibetan people, who as refugees have endured enough. It uses yelling insults at extremely high volume during demonstrations also and uses racist language in its publications such as “saffron robed Muslim” and “backward Tibetans.” These well financed protestors, many of whom appear at the demonstrations in monastic garb, are mostly the same group of people who are being flown around the world and provided with food and accomodation. They have provided no transparent report of their finances and have no email address on their website for those with concerns.
The teachings of Buddhism in general, and Tibetan Buddhism in particular, are beginning to dimish and are in danger of disappearing from this world. These protests are destroying the image of Buddhism internationally and making efforts at its preservation more difficult.
In addition, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the most well-known Buddhist figure in the world today, and his activities to preserve Tibetan culture and promote peace and understanding have benefitted countless people. These loud and disrespectful demonstrations disrupt these beneficial activities of the Dalai Lama which make a real contribution not just to the cause of the preservation of the unique Tibetan culture and religion, but also to greater peace and understanding in the world.
Not only do these provocative demonstrations disrupt the transmission of Buddhist teachings, they also bring the image of Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, into disrepute. The long-term effect is that the image of all Buddhist organizations, including your own, will suffer.
The misinformation that is distributed at these campaigns undermines the Tibetan people at a critical time in their history, when their culture, language and religion are in real danger of extinction.”
https://www.change.org/petitions/new-kadampa-tradition-we-request-that-you-immediately-cease-the-provocative-protests-and-yelling-at-the-public-teachings-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama
Believe me, its real
The planetary shift has resulted in more and more people awakening to higher consicousness and vibrating to higher dimension to ultimately becoming one with universal consciousness.
Live and let live. Why the need to be right and others wrong? Those who are ready will ascend and those not ready will be around longer.
Gate Gate paragate, Para sama gate bodhi svaha.
“darkness cannot drive out darkness:only light can do that: Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.” MLK
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/177.htm
While I have absolutely no issues with people signing such a petition, with those who wish to stand in solidarity with His Holiness, who are concerned for his safety, (which in large measure, is being stroked, blown way out of proportion by both sides), but whatever, I guess people feel they have the right.
Now I wish to say something about this petition presuming i too have rights, presuming someone else hasn’t already started another petition to try and shut me up.
The petitioner Khedrup from Canada sensationalize,(without a shred of evidence) “the teachings of Buddhism in general, and Tibetan Buddhism in particular, are beginning to dimish and are in danger of disappearing from this world. ”
The above quote, just like the petition itself, is a premeditated distortion of the reality. If some shugden cult yelling at His Holiness is to be blamed for the purported disappearance of Buddhism then what of Buddhist monks hacking and burning Muslims in Burma? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My94afPuWgg
It’s largely the effort of individuals like His Holiness, as well as hip westernized Tulkus like Sogyal Rinpoche, Trungpa Mapham Rinpoche, geshi kalsang gaytso, etc, that Tibetan Buddhism is the most popular form of Buddhism in the West, bar none. Western media and western intellectuals who have even a passing interest in religion; Buddhism, have also made this claim over the last few years.
Then we have Doctor Lobsang Sangay who never tire of informing Westerners that there are 500 million Chinese Buddhists.(the insinuation that the mere fact these Chinese are buddhists somehow validates, endorses Middle Way policy in the eyes of the Chinese people or something to that effect.)
Lets put history and math to use this once. At the time of the historical Buddha Gautama almost 3000 yrs ago, the world population was, and let us be generous, 50 million. Today, the PM claims there are 500 Chinese Buddhists. The math shows indubitably that buddhism, far from disappearing or diminishing has, as a matter of fact, over the course of time, gone the opposite direction, toward what physicists call, Inflation. An explosion!!
Ofcourse this doomsday scenario of a petition is cheap sensationalism at its best or worse if you like, where the creator of this creative petition pilfered a recent news from Phayul.com and mischievously modified the context. His high moral standards, his lofty principles which we can clearly see demonstrated in his petition somehow failed to deter him from willfully creating his own “misinformation.”
http://phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=34941&article=Dalai+Lama+begins+annual+teaching+for+youth
“The Tibetan leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama expressed concern over the degeneration of interest in Buddhism among the Tibetan youth. He said that there is only a few Tibetan born in exile enrolling into monasteries these days.”
I am just guessing but one reason why Tibetans might be losing faith in our own Buddhist tradition is precisely because of these needless controversy against some of our own people and over faeries. This mind numbing crap invented by the Tibetan clerics who cant seem to keep their dirty laundry to themselves but have to drag all Tibetans through the mud, or having to listen to the bs that some sect leader is fighting sectarianism.haha This exclusive sect which is intolerant of others within its own sect, never mind other sects, religions, none believers, what have you. They who feign inclusiveness and pluralism just as they feign democracy and free speech. The spell can not be sustained if the leaders and their followers lack integrity.
Then there is also the question of freedom of speech and the right to assemble which is conveniently over looked by the petition all because someone or some group is yelling at OUR Kundun apay ro. Not OUR KUNDUN!! Meanwhile some bastard threw a shoe at President Bush as Tsering Topgyal pointed out above, yet no Tibetan was bothered by it. Infact, I would hazard a guess that most Tibetans, when they saw it, had a good chuckle out of it. Certainly no Tibetan thought the act was petition worthy.
His Holiness is famous for coming up with cute quotes, a recent one is, “the 21st century is the century of dialogue” http://dalailamacenter.org/blog-post/dalai-lama-says-21st-century-should-be-century-dialogue
Using dialogue to resolve conflicts, how wise and humane? So why not His Holiness put his money where his mouth is and have a heart to heart with the Shugden cult, after all, the excommunicated monks are from his own sect, sharing pretty much the same worldview of ghosts and deities. His Holiness far from creating a situation where a healthy dialogue can take place, is instead, exacerbating it, by drawing a line in the sand, sticking to his version of the facts with the exile government and private citizens coming to his defense with the delusion that Kundun is not even a little responsible for this silly sectarian bickering.
The better strategy seem to be dialogue, or even, completely ignoring the shugden cult and not giving them free and continuous publicity.
Finally, let me gripe against my fellow western Tibetans for failing to understanding the concept of democracy. It never ceases to amaze me that many Tibetans in the West, you’d think if any, it is they, these allegedly sophisticated and highly educated Western tibetans would have at least a cursory notion and appreciation for democratic rule, freedom of speech, etc, but nooo, most seem either totally ignorant or just don’t care for those fair liberal values of their host countries; the rich, comfy country in which they live, prosper and flourish, in safety. That’s taken for granted, unappreciated,somehow beneath their consideration.
Anyway, what is the resolution suppose to achieve? Piss the shugden off even more? Check.
oops mod please remove double post. thank you.
While I have absolutely no issues with people signing such a petition, with those who wish to stand in solidarity with His Holiness, who are concerned for his safety, (which in large measure, is being stroked, blown way out of proportion by both sides), but whatever, I guess people feel they have the right.
Now I wish to say something about this petition presuming i too have rights, presuming someone else hasn’t already started another petition to try and shut me up.
The petitioner Khedrup from Canada sensationalize,(without a shred of evidence) “the teachings of Buddhism in general, and Tibetan Buddhism in particular, are beginning to dimish and are in danger of disappearing from this world. ”
The above quote, just like the petition itself, is a premeditated distortion of the reality. If some shugden cult yelling at His Holiness is to be blamed for the purported disappearance of Buddhism then what of Buddhist monks hacking and burning Muslims in Burma? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My94afPuWgg
It’s largely the effort of individuals like His Holiness, as well as hip westernized Tulkus like Sogyal Rinpoche, Trungpa Mapham Rinpoche, geshi kalsang gaytso, etc, that Tibetan Buddhism is the most popular form of Buddhism in the West, bar none. Western media and western intellectuals who have even a passing interest in religion; Buddhism, have also made this claim over the last few years.
Then we have Doctor Lobsang Sangay who never tire of informing Westerners that there are 500 million Chinese Buddhists.(the insinuation that the mere fact these Chinese are buddhists somehow validates, endorses Middle Way policy in the eyes of the Chinese people or something to that effect.)
Lets put history and math to use this once. At the time of the historical Buddha Gautama almost 3000 yrs ago, the world population was, and let us be generous, 50 million. Today, the PM claims there are 500 Chinese Buddhists. The math shows indubitably that buddhism, far from disappearing or diminishing has, as a matter of fact, over the course of time, gone the opposite direction, toward what physicists call, Inflation. An explosion!!
Ofcourse this doomsday scenario of a petition is cheap sensationalism at its best or worse if you like, where the creator of this creative petition pilfered a recent news from Phayul.com and mischievously modified the context. His high moral standards, his lofty principles which we can clearly see demonstrated in his petition somehow failed to deter him from willfully creating his own “misinformation.”
http://phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=34941&article=Dalai+Lama+begins+annual+teaching+for+youth
“The Tibetan leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama expressed concern over the degeneration of interest in Buddhism among the Tibetan youth. He said that there is only a few Tibetan born in exile enrolling into monasteries these days.”
I am just guessing but one reason why Tibetans might be losing faith in our own Buddhist tradition is precisely because of these needless controversy against some of our own people and over faeries. This mind numbing crap invented by the Tibetan clerics who cant seem to keep their dirty laundry to themselves but have to drag all Tibetans through the mud, or having to listen to the bs that some sect leader is fighting sectarianism.haha This exclusive sect which is intolerant of others within its own sect, never mind other sects, religions, none believers, what have you. They who feign inclusiveness and pluralism just as they feign democracy and free speech. The spell can not be sustained if the leaders and their followers lack integrity.
While I have absolutely no issues with people signing such a petition, with those who wish to stand in solidarity with His Holiness, who are concerned for his safety, (which in large measure, is being stroked, blown way out of proportion by both sides), but whatever, I guess people feel they have the right.
Now I wish to say something about this petition presuming i too have rights, presuming someone else hasn’t already started another petition to try and shut me up.
The petitioner Khedrup from Canada sensationalize,(without a shred of evidence) “the teachings of Buddhism in general, and Tibetan Buddhism in particular, are beginning to dimish and are in danger of disappearing from this world. ”
The above quote, just like the petition itself, is a premeditated distortion of the reality. If some shugden cult yelling at His Holiness is to be blamed for the purported disappearance of Buddhism then what of Buddhist monks hacking and burning Muslims in Burma? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My94afPuWgg
(its not allowing me to post all so I am chopping it into chunks)
It’s largely the effort of individuals like His Holiness, as well as hip westernized Tulkus like Sogyal Rinpoche, Trungpa Mapham Rinpoche, geshi kalsang gaytso, etc, that Tibetan Buddhism is the most popular form of Buddhism in the West, bar none. Western media and western intellectuals who have even a passing interest in religion; Buddhism, have also made this claim over the last few years.
Then we have Doctor Lobsang Sangay who never tire of informing Westerners that there are 500 million Chinese Buddhists.(the insinuation that the mere fact these Chinese are buddhists somehow validates, endorses Middle Way policy in the eyes of the Chinese people or something to that effect.)
Lets put history and math to use this once. At the time of the historical Buddha Gautama almost 3000 yrs ago, the world population was, and let us be generous, 50 million. Today, the PM claims there are 500 Chinese Buddhists. The math shows indubitably that buddhism, far from disappearing or diminishing has, as a matter of fact, over the course of time, gone the opposite direction, toward what physicists call, Inflation. An explosion!!
Ofcourse this doomsday scenario of a petition is cheap sensationalism at its best or worse if you like, where the creator of this creative petition pilfered a recent news from Phayul.com and mischievously modified the context. His high moral standards, his lofty principles which we can clearly see demonstrated in his petition somehow failed to deter him from willfully creating his own “misinformation.”
http://phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=34941&article=Dalai+Lama+begins+annual+teaching+for+youth
“The Tibetan leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama expressed concern over the degeneration of interest in Buddhism among the Tibetan youth. He said that there is only a few Tibetan born in exile enrolling into monasteries these days.”
I am just guessing but one reason why Tibetans might be losing faith in our own Buddhist tradition is precisely because of these needless controversy against some of our own people and over faeries. This mind numbing crap invented by the Tibetan clerics who cant seem to keep their dirty laundry to themselves but have to drag all Tibetans through the mud, or having to listen to the bs that some sect leader is fighting sectarianism.haha This exclusive sect which is intolerant of others within its own sect, never mind other sects, religions, none believers, what have you. They who feign inclusiveness and pluralism just as they feign democracy and free speech. The spell can not be sustained if the leaders and their followers lack integrity.
Then there is also the question of freedom of speech and the right to assemble which is conveniently over looked by the petition all because someone or some group is yelling at OUR Kundun apay ro. Not OUR KUNDUN!! Meanwhile some bastard threw a shoe at President Bush as Tsering Topgyal pointed out above, yet no Tibetan was bothered by it. Infact, I would hazard a guess that most Tibetans, when they saw it, had a good chuckle out of it. Certainly no Tibetan thought the act was petition worthy.
His Holiness is famous for coming up with cute quotes, a recent one is, “the 21st century is the century of dialogue” http://dalailamacenter.org/blog-post/dalai-lama-says-21st-century-should-be-century-dialogue
Using dialogue to resolve conflicts, how wise and humane? So why not His Holiness put his money where his mouth is and have a heart to heart with the Shugden cult, after all, the excommunicated monks are from his own sect, sharing pretty much the same worldview of ghosts and deities. His Holiness far from creating a situation where a healthy dialogue can take place, is instead, exacerbating it, by drawing a line in the sand, sticking to his version of the facts with the exile government and private citizens coming to his defense with the delusion that Kundun is not even a little responsible for this silly sectarian bickering.
The better strategy seem to be dialogue, or even, completely ignoring the shugden cult and not giving them free and continuous publicity.
Finally, let me gripe against my fellow western Tibetans for failing to understanding the concept of democracy. It never ceases to amaze me that many Tibetans in the West, you’d think if any, it is they, these allegedly sophisticated and highly educated Western tibetans would have at least a cursory notion and appreciation for democratic rule, freedom of speech, etc, but nooo, most seem either totally ignorant or just don’t care for those fair liberal values of their host countries; the rich, comfy country in which they live, prosper and flourish, in safety. That’s taken for granted, unappreciated,somehow beneath their consideration.
Anyway, what is the resolution suppose to achieve? Piss the shugden off even more? Check.
Phew, I am done.
what dream are talking big but what have you done for tibet sala? why are you thinking you are such a mind because you live in the west? who cares if you guys who are in the west make money and don’t even care about tibet when we are at a crutial stage of losing out everything to bloody chingchog and you have with your big mouth try to distroy or maybe more like jealous someone wrote a petition & not you. No one asking your opinion if you are dhoyal or chinese big mouth. there are some chinese sneakily in here i see the mind of people who want to destroy & make fun of our ancient tradition. well buddy sorry I cant help you there if you have negative karma you need to work it yourself as budha said. You don’t understand the rich buddhist tradition in where you are born that you turned away because you moved to the west to get rich so don’t blame HH the Dalai Lama for your ignorant and stupidiety. Tibetan buddhism will be there long after your miserable life is gone for I feel sorry for the person you are with no faith in anything except making money. If you dont care for petition you dont have to sign it no one forcing you, go live comfortable, life making money and putting down your own culture kos iam done with stupids like you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don’t see a resolution to this dispute any time soon as unlike what the dhogyalist are claiming that their fight is about the poor tibetans having the right to practice their faith but not one of those so-called, poor tibetans are protesting or leading the protest in europe of north america. These protests, mind stroking all this controversy are the dhogyal leaders who are ethnically Tibetans as Tsering Drolma said “The biggest obstacle to the life of His Holiness the Dalai Lama comes from within the Tibetan hierarchy, itself. No one is a bigger obstacle to the life stream and activity of the authentic masters than the so-called tulkus who have abandoned their vows and Buddhadharma. They still use their “names” to profit and make quite a good living off of Tibetan Buddhism.”
There are good monks and selfish monks and these dhoyal leaders, these tibetan monks are traitors who disrespect their own tradition , guru and people. These fat cat so-called “Tibetan” monks are disgusting. HHDL said Tibetan buddhism is loosing popularity for the Tibetan youth, these rich inji loving monks are helping to bring down Tibetan buddhism.
TSUNDDRU: very well said, thanks
Speaking of petitions, here are two of them with the highest priority, in which our active support is needed in order to let the brutal Chinese regime know in no uncertain terms that we in the free world, we lucky few, do not support the Chinese Communist Party, we dont want their psychopathic Party ideology infecting universal values of human rights which is the very foundation of Democratic nations..
Our support and prayers go out to the common people of Tibet and China, that one day, their dreams of freedom will be realized. I am sure most here have already done so, but if not, please support these two petitions. Thank You and good job TNC.
http://www.tibetnc.org/get-involved/petition-liu-xiaobo-street/
And……
https://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/trustee-s-of-the-toronto-district-school-board-say-no-to-china-s-confucius-institute-in-tdsb
Watch this video and consider if you still are neutral about these ‘misbehaving monks’ I personally find it disgusting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyJyXOUODwI
then consider signing this petion
https://www.change.org/petitions/new-kadampa-tradition-we-request-that-you-immediately-cease-the-provocative-protests-and-yelling-at-the-public-teachings-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama
Referring to the above comments, I think it is very unfortunate that people fail to see that it is disrespectful to refer to Buddhists who rely on the protector Dorje Shugden as non-Buddhists. Maybe that is your strongly held belief, but at the end of the day it remains just that: a belief. In general, people have this view because the Dalai Lama says so, and if he said something else tomorrow those same people would believe that too. That’s fine. You’re entitled to think what you want, but it’s not okay to be so rude as to assert an opinion as a fact.
Kelsang Palmo, NKT:
So how rude (not to mention unfortunate) do you think it is to shout through bullhorns (or even sing) “Stop Lying, false Dalai Lama”? I guess you don’t have any interaction whatsoever with Tibetans other than ISC and I am quite sure you do not speak or read the language, so i will tell you: these actions and online hat propaganda are extremely rude.
By the way, the difference between the recent Change.org petition and the fraudulent WSS petition is it is valid by virtue of not having false signatories added to it. I proved the WSS petition was bogus by adding multiple false names to it myself!
Cultists have this view because the so-called “Geshela” says so, and if he said something else tomorrow those same people would believe that too. In fact teachings other than dictated by management are prohibited in your centres worldwide. NKT bookstores only sell ghostwritten books by one author, no wonder your views are distorted.
Remember Kelsang Palmo: real estate is not important, eventually even your fancy priory and Hollywood centre will burn down or perhaps become a brothel or casino. Your imaginary goblin is leading you astray.
https://www.change.org/petitions/new-kadampa-tradition-we-request-that-you-immediately-cease-the-provocative-protests-and-yelling-at-the-public-teachings-of-his-holiness-the-dalai-lama
@ 279 Kalsang Palmo
It really shock me how the western Shugdenpas feel they can show utter disrespect for the whole of Tibet and Tibetans and disregard for the feelings of the whole of Tibetan people and the nation of Tibet by insults and taunts at their only leader,their identity and representative.
@sonamsto:
I would have listened to Western Shugdenite about their issues had they protested to Chinese oppression, suppression of Buddhist monks and nuns in Tibet.
These Injis never protest against Chinese genocide in Tibet and they say that they do not want to just practice Dharma and not engage in politics.
However, their zeal for anti Dalai Lama is so strong and vocal as they travels from continent to continent just to malign the Dalai Lama.
In fact they have become the tools of Chinese occupation forces in Tibet to sow discord amongst the Tibetans.
But I must also say that in 21st century we should accept all people including Atheist.
KARZE: I posted the horrific 2008 photos published by Wikileaks of Tibetans murdered by Chinese security forces many times on dolgyal debates, particularly on the Tricycle blog, with this direct question to cultists: if human rights are universal, why are you not denouncing these real (not imaginary) human rights violations?
Mostly no response. One answer was the photos were ‘faked by Richard Gere in Hollywood’. My conclusion is the cult is not really interested in human rights at all and their callous indifference to Tibetans–some of them even named Kelsang–is clearly racist.
@283 That shows how sectarian Dolgyal group are.
In fact Tibet has been exploited by Lamas for hundreds of years after the assassination of last Tibetan emperor Lang Dharma.
Lang Dharma was painted as evil king with horns and black tongue in history written by religious right.
They have resorted to colluding with foreign powers to gain narrow sectarian rule.
No wonder Mongols, Chinese and even Nepalese took advantage of it and made Tibet soft target.
For history I like The Arrow and the Spindle by Samten G Karmay (haven’t read the third one yet) Bonpos naturally have a different view of history which balances out the Buddhist narrative is usually very self-biased.
Pobangka’s devotees are extremely confused: one the one hand they claim that Chushi Gangdruk dolgyal people saved HHDL and got him safely down to India, on the other hand they claim the triple murder of Geshe Lobsang Gyatso in Dharamsala was not committed–as Interpol and HP Police evidence indicates by the cult– but blame these crimes on Chushi Gangdruk!
According to their own reasoning, either way the dolgyalpas are responsible!
There are lot of insulting comments above, which I believe only serve to show that the writers’ lack tolerance towards people who hold different views to them. I do not wish to respond to them. One may ask, though, where does this lack of tolerance come from? And why do people feel it is acceptable to extinguish a religious tradition for the sake of a political goal? All modern people understand that using religion to achieve political goals is unacceptable. If people find protesters unacceptable then they also should ask what is it that the protesters find unacceptable. People do not protest for no reason. And please don’t tell me it’s for Chinese money!
KELSANG PALMO: Why is when ISC are involved in politics, its not politics? This is a childish attitude. Pabongka and his students’ activity to subsume all schools of thought in Tibet under their dominance is the cause of your Shug (power) cult’s downfall. You are not on the payroll, you are passionately aiding our enemies for free, in a way that is even more despicable.
Namkha: Tibetans (who rely on the protector Dorje Shugden) are experiencing persecution as a result of their religious beliefs. Even the Tibetan school children who spoke to the Sikyong know this – they see the signs saying “no entry” with their own eyes. This is an issue of human rights and, therefore, one that is valid to protest about. It is not the fault of the protesters that human rights abuses exist. If it were not necessary to protest people wouldn’t do it. So the solution is to remove the human rights abuses and allow people to rely on their protector.
NKT Kelsang, you misspelled my name, do pay attention.
Your issue is confabulated and you are foolishly being used.
If there are indeed 5 million dolgyal worshippers as the cult claims, they can easily vote in their own candidates. What abuses did Amnesty find in this regard?: none. Who is stopping Serpom and Ganden Shar? No one whatsoever. This must be frustrating for the cult since they are trying to provoke violence daily by concocting evidence like the bogus letter from Oakand, California. Do you think you are going to take down CTA? …dream on.
So Anila, where was the protest from your people when Tibetans are murdered by the colonizers?
Wikileaks website suffered a serious cyberattack emanating from China after the organization published photos of murder victims in Tibet but the hard evidence is still accessible:
http://downloads.wikileaks-press.org/file/tibet-protest-photos/
@285 Namkah: Tibetan lay people people aka soldiers who laid their lives to protect and escort HHDL safely out of Tibet to India yet Dolgyal group will claim its as blessing of Shugden.
In the past its blamed on Karma of Tibetan people for Chinese occupation of Tibet yet in reality its government undoing and sectarian reign that brought Chinese so easily.
@285 Namkah: Tibetan lay people people aka soldiers who laid their lives to protect and escort HHDL safely out of Tibet to India yet Dolgyal group will claim its as blessing of Shugden.
Namkhah: I believe Amnesty said it was ‘outside their remit’ rather than that there was no evidence. Quite possibly that would not be the case now given the escalation of the situation to include even posting people’s photos/names/locations on the CTA website for protesting as if intimidating private citizens engaging in peaceful protest on behalf of their fellowman were acceptable.
Anyhow we manage to do to ourselves what the Chinese are unable to. Carry on.
The protesters are not going to harm anyone. They meditate on peaceful motivation and action. They only want Dorje Shugden practitioners to be tolerated and respected. You can see them in all the videos staying in their own area. Certainly let the Dalai Lama be protected as much as he and his staff want him to be. But the protests are not an attack, merely a communication.
@STEVE ROGERS These Caucasian have never protested against the Chinese for the total destruction and obstruction of religious freedom in Tibet.
They claim they do not want to engage in politics while they seem to be different with regard to Dalai Lama.
The very name Shugden means violently powerful and was known to take life of devotees who do not give complete submission to him which was reportedly claimed by Trijang Rinpoche.
My impression is that this situation has gone well beyond any prospects in the immediate future of dialogue or resolution. A protester last week in Frankfurt intruded upon a teaching being given by His Holiness. He asked a question about Shugden and Trijang Rinpoche and when His Holiness started to answer the question, the protester shouted, “Stop lying!”
Whereupon, His Holiness started to explain how, as a Buddhist monk, he was committed to telling the truth– whereupon, the shugden protester continued to shout, over and over, “Stop lying, Dalai Lama stop lying!” and had to be escorted out by security.
I expected that the International Shugden Community (ISC) would be ashamed and embarrassed by this display. Instead, they have proudly published it on Youtube, with a summary to the effect that His Holiness “evaded the question.” Really!
And this is the problem. How can there be dialogue or resolution with a group of people who show no interest in telling the truth and no sense of shame or human decency? The actions of that man are no different than someone barging into a church service here in the West and shouting at the minister. Yet the ISC has no sense of this.
In addition, they have recently published a “book” called “False Dalai Lama: The Worst Dictator in Modern History.” This book contains hundreds of pages of pure vitriol and lies. Chapter Two claims that the village in which His Holiness was born was a Muslim village and that His Holiness was Muslim and that he has been deceiving the entire world about this ever since. Every sentence is a diatribe against the Dalai Lama and all of it either an outright lie or a statement taken out of context or an unsubstantiated claim.
How can the resolution that is so needed occur while such weapons are still flying?
And as I read this horrid book– False Dalai Lama: The Worst Dictator in Modern History– I hear the PRC propaganda machine just rolling along, with all its wild absurd spin. I fear that this trouble is growing very large.
Yes Joanne, the shugden people have gone too far. One felt sorry for them for they appear to be possessed but our patience is mistaken for weakness by these ignorant people and if they continue with this, I think all Tibetans should protest against all Shugden Spirit Worshippers as our well -being is being threatened by the demonic force of this evil spirit. Give them an inch and they take a mile.
Yes, Uimperialist, I agree. And what clearly seems to be happening is the uniting of the two campaigns against the Dalai Lama, that of the Chinese and that of the Shugden community. If you read the ISC publication, there are clearly two stories running concurrently. One is the story of Shugden worshippers being disenfranchised and persecuted. The other is of Tibetans who were ignorant and barbaric before the Chinese invasion etc.
The ISC publication contains many pages recounting Tibetan “history”– but there is NO mention of Chinese atrocities, no mention of the numbers of Tibetans who were tortured, killed and imprisoned. Both the protests of 2008 and the recent self-immolations are claimed to be incited by the Dalai Lama– and no mention is made of the fact that Tibetans might have some cause for protesting and self-immolating. “Historians” such as Tom Grunfeld and Stuart Gelder are quoted frequently to support claims.
This propaganda book so called “False Dalai Lama” is self defeating to Shugden group. By claiming Dalai Lama to be false they are making mockery of their root guru Trijang rinpoche.
Trijang Rinpoche has not only authenticated the Dalai Lama but was his junior tutor as well. The many of songs sung by Tibetans in praise of the Dalai Lama was penned by Trijang rinpoche.
Yes, Karze, but at a recent conference at the SOAS in London, Kelsang Rabten, director of the International Shugden Society, made this response to scriptural citations given by Geshe Tashi Tsering: He said, “You have your sources. We have ours.”
So common ground seems to be slipping away.
If you read the “False Dalai Lama” publication, many of the “sources” are anonymous or hearsay. I fear that some Shugden groups are creating their own reality of sources and scriptures, which only make dialogue and the prospect of finding common ground much further away.
@Joanne: This whole Shugden controversy and agitation was based on the their allegation that HHDL had belittled Trijang Rinpoche by curbing on Shugden.
Its not about Shugden but Trijang Rinpoche. One of the Geshe (Tibetan who has served TR) has said that he would castaway historical Buddha if he were to appear before him for Trijang Rinpoche.
But my summary of this controversy is loss of Geluk hegemony on power and politics in exile. Let’s not forget that before 1959 in Tibetan Government or Gaden Phodrang was run by Geluk monasteries. They were so strong that even Sera monastery waged a war against Tibetan government in 1940s.
Therefore the “False Dalai Lama” allegation would only weaken their case as it would cast shadow on their spiritual leader Trijang Rinpoche for having made mistake.
Yes, Karze, you are right that the history of the Shugden controversy has its roots in Geluk hegemony. But that’s its roots within the Tibetan community and psyche. What about how this trouble is manifesting in the West? I am saying that I think we need to pay attention.
For example, why are all the big protests occurring in the West? Why is the International Shugden Community based in the West, with publications, news releases and video clips available in English, Dutch, French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese and German– but not in Tibetan! Why?
I am also concerned that the ISC is rewriting Tibetan history to fit their own agenda. In their account, there is no problem with the Dalai Lama being false because Trijang Rinpoche is the victim in their tale. They speak of the Dalai Lama “betraying” his two great teachers etc. There is no account of Trijang Rinpoche ever declaring the Dalai Lama to be a great being or even recognizing him as the Dalai Lama. It is not said outright, but there is definitely an implication that both Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche “knew” that the Dalai Lama was really Muslim and therefore false.
I don’t think the ISC would dare tell their new history to Tibetans. So I think the situation in the West with the protests and the smear campaign needs to be taken with due seriousness. The Shugden controversy was an issue to do with Geluk power struggles in the past perhaps– but how will this spirit worship and trouble manifest in a new, vulnerable, gullible culture, with a group that looks more like a cult everyday and China ready to take advantage of any vulnerable place in the Dalai Lama’s burgeoning popularity?
@Joanne: There are popular songs composed by Trijang Rinpoche in the early years of exile in praise of the Dalai Lama being the reincarnation of Avalokeshwara. These songs are sung in school specially by TIPA.
Both Trijang and Ling Rinpoche by accepting the appointment as a tutor to young Dalai Lama is official acceptance enough.
Not just Dalai Lama but his eldest brother Thupten Norbu was recognized as high lama of Kubum monastery and later became Abbot of the Kubum.
Shugden group should spend their energy on current Trijang than waste their time and energy on denigrating the Dalai Lama.
Yes, Karze, thank you. All you say is true and logical. Perhaps they’ll listen to reason and truth someday. One can only keep trying…
Seen these?
shugdeninfo.com website
dolgyal shugden: a history new book
Its given that all major catastrophic happenings visiting a society, nation was always religion, nay,the differences between faiths following different religions,or the division of faiths belonging to the same religion, had always created mind boggling havoc causing death and destruction everywhere. The Shugden controversy has damaged the Tibetan unity as never before,the schism is becoming ever wider, if a timely solution is not found soon the malady could have far-reaching consequences which could bring irreparable damage to the unity of the Tibetan people. The solution is the Dalai Lama; doing away with the religious connotation for the moment,the issue deserves to be treated as top political priority by the Dalai Lama.
Who benefits? Causing divisions in Tibet would suit the Chinese who gave refuge to Shugden practitioners, alleged criminals. It wastes time and energy of Dalai Lama, Dr Thurman and friends. It helps muddy waters and lower reputation of Buddhism in the West where the Chinese must be annoyed it’s been doing so well and the Tibetans have garnered so much sympathy. It is an instance of the tactic Lenin (I think) called “sharpening contradictions” which the Chinese Communist chaps would have been well trained in.
Chinese official in the news conference said, HHDL said no reincarnation, but he said, Losang sanga said there is reincarnation. So, the Chinese official concluded that they are playing white and black face. Therefore, we(Chinese government) have the final call.
China news agency, Beijing, March 11 (Reporter Shi Longhong) – CPPCC Standing Committee, Ethnic and Religious Affairs Director Zhu Weiqun said in Beijing on the 11th.
Zhu Weiqun, said the Dalai Lama announced that no reincarnation is actually a conspiracy, because his Tibetan prime minister in exile, the Dalai Lama’s so-called hereditary head of high-profile claims will continue to exist, continue to reincarnation, but this is not refuted by Dalai lama. So this is actually a two-man play with this topic central to deceive, to deceive the world, for the group to maintain control of the Dalai Lama’s name for t heir separatist political conspiracy services(News News http://www.getinews.com/).
Zhu Weiqun Ribbentrop the Ethics Minister (sounds right)
An Atheist government meddling in religious affairs is the most disgusting exhibition of atheist hypocrisy. Being Atheist myself and having read copious amount of atheist literature and works of scholarship, you couldn’t help noticing the Atheist condescension of somehow being on a higher ethical standard. But, in the end, the largest Atheist government in the world is cynically using and abusing Religion to oppress the religious people of Tibet.
If the Atheist saints in the Western Ivory Tower have to choose between the brutal CCP regime and the oppressed people of Tibet, they will follow their Atheist ethics, and choose CCP Money.
Lucky for these “sun bright men” that Nietzsche is dead,or he would have tore a new hole in their dogma and cupidity.
Hello
Jamyang la, When you say an “Inji” nun, its smells of hypocrisy to say the least.. When the likes of “Ingi” Robert Thurman puts up a biased post in the Huffington Post which puts the Shugden followers as murders and collaborators with the Chinese without a shred of proof, it is totally acceptable i presume because he is on the Dalai Lama’s side and hence authentic. All along all we have asked for a meaningful dialogue or even a debate on this issue but all we received in return was rejection. It has been roughly about 20 years that we have been asking for our basic right to practice and to say it has fallen on deaf ears would be an understatement. we have exhausted all avenues. we tried silent gatherings to loud protests which is our democratic right. You would have to literally put yourself in our shoes to actually feel the suffering and torment our people have borne through. I thought a democratic government gave their people the right to live with dignity, the right to assemble and the right to practice without being threatened or segregated. So if you could kindly advice us on alternative means for our voices to be heard, i am all ears.
@313 Have these virulent Inji protesters ever uttered a word against Chinese official stationed in their cities about the destruction of monks and monasteries?
I am sick and tired when ordinary Tibetan gives or risk their life to save Tibet and escorted the HHDL to India safely but Sungmas take the credit. Tens of thousand of ordinary Tibetans have died for this yet rarely get appreciated.
TASHI: Dolgyal Tsokpa offered up the Chinese (by their reckoning) 20,000 people from India to migrate to to PRC. This is according to defector Lama Tseta’s eyewitness testimony.
Did these self appointed ‘leaders’ ever ask these 20,000 ‘followers’ if they wanted to go live there? I don’t think that is particularly democratic either.
As far as shred of proof regarding the multiple stabbing of the Principal of the Institute for Buddhist Dialectical Studies, Geshe Lobsang Gyatso (and two other monks): this happened in our actual spatio-temporal world–. Geshela was stabbed 17 times and his throat slit–there was nothing imaginary about it. While an abundance of caution is prudent, this event cannot simply be dismissed as an unproven allegation that requires presumption of innocence. The two chief suspects remain on the most wanted list by the Himachel Pradesh police, and Interpol red notices are outstanding on these two individuals, there of course being no statute of limitations on murder. Prithvi Raj (PR), Chief Police of Kangra District stated: “We have identified two of the murderers, and we have clear indications that the murderers are directly linked to the Dorje Shugden association and directly connecting these murderers with the case. But so far we have not been able to arrest them. One is called Tenzin Chozin, the other is called Lobsang Chodrak. Before the murder, the principal received threatening letters from the Shugden association.” The two suspects have been spotted in the vicinity of Chatreng, a cult stronghold but China has neither an extradition treaty with India nor any inclination to co-operate with Interpol. Several Tibetan individuals named by Lama Tseta reside in the US and Canada–no extradition needed– and could be interviewed quite easily. These people would consequently also need to fully disclose foreign income from all sources to the IRS and CRA, respectively.